Suitable Touring Vehicle - Toyota 100's Factory TD Wgn vs LR Defender Wgn?

[Robmacca]

Guys....
With me buying my 1st LR Disco, I had always had the intention to eventually "buy" the last of the Factory TD Landcruiser 100's Wgn. There's a few reasons for this which I'll list later.... but then I happened to come across a new Landrover Defender Wgn, which got me re-thinking my original choice of the LC 100's as our Touring Vehicle that would need to do us for many, many years to come.... Currently we have a 150's D4D Prado as our current Tourer, but on our recent Cape York Trip, it was obvious that as our 3 kids grew & if we still wanted to continue to do our remote touring throughout the country, that we would need a larger vehicle that would enable us to carry more fuel; water and spare parts w/o towing a trailer..... or, keep our current setup & start towing a trailer..... which I may need to do as a temporary measure until funds come available....

Now, I'm not wanting to start another Toyota vs LR debate, but my original reasons for wanting a Landcruiser (Year model bet'n 2004 > 2006) were:

Pros:
1. It's one of the only Wagons that I've found that can carry around 250>260ltrs of Fuel under the car, giving me a exceptional fuel range.
2. It's one of the last reliable engines that I believe Toyota have built that is not fully electronic (still mechanical to a certain degree)
3. Sourcing parts (if required) in remote areas is more likely going to be easier a Toyotas are more common and have more dealerships / mechanics in those areas
4. A large range of accessories available
5. The modifications that can be safely done to the engine to get it to perform as good as the V8 200's is possible while still maintaining reliability
6. Greater amount of Room for our family as our 3 kids grow, while hopefully still having room to carry those necessary spare parts
7. They come with a "Auto" which is a benefit for my wife who hasn't driven a manual car in 17yrs+ even though she has a manual licence.
8. Vehicle as a whole has a fairly good history of being reliable
9. Good Towing capacity for when we start doing more towing our Van during our retirement years
10. More Vehicle Servicing Centres (mechanics that can work on them) throughout the country than most other makes of vehicles.....
11. Assuming better Noise and Dust sealing qualities than LR Defender.....
12. Less rattles, etc than what u would find in a Defender ?? (not sure about this one)
13. Still fairly comfortable whether ON or OFF the road and should be suitable for us as we go into our retirement years....

Cons:
1. Weak Front Diff - (This can be rectified though via install a Locker and another mod to the Diff Pinion.)
2. Front Lower Control Arms breaking/cracking - (Again, there's fixes for this)
3. Vehicle has "Some" electronics which may proove to be an issue as the vehicle gets older.....(I'm assuming I would have this same issue with the LR Defender if I got a similar year one)
4. Ground Clearance - (this can be increase via taller tyres / suspension mods)
5. 6cyl Rego - (not a real big deal, but obviously going to be dearer than the LR 4cyl Diesel)
6. Dearer Servicing Costs than the LR. (holds more engine oil than the LR I assume)


Now after seeing the LR Defender, it got me thinking as to whether this vehicle would be more suited to us into the future.....Unfortunately, I know very little about them and what their strengths &/or weaknesses are and this is why I thought I would post up here to get the "Good Oil" on these LR Defenders......
The Defender that I had a bit of a look over, was the latest 2.2ltr TD version, so maybe they haven't been out long enough for any issues/faults to arise, but I'm not familiar as to how reliable the older TD5 is in the Defenders (heard of some of the issues with the TD5 in the Disco-II, but unsure if these are also experienced in the Defenders as well)
What I'm hoping for is u guys to help "enlighten me" as to the the "Pros" and "Cons" of the LR Defenders (probably leave out the Tdi as I know how reliable it is & has no electronics.... I want to compare similar years if possible)


I'll start a Pro's and Con's list from what little I know......

Pros:
1. A LOT more room available than what I would get in the LC 100s
2. 4cyl Rego
3. Probably wouldn't need to tow a trailer due to more room.
4. Should be more ecomonical than the 100s
5. Better "Offroad" ability & better Ground Clearance in standard form.....
6. Cheaper Servicing Costs than the 100s
7.

Cons:
1. Limited leg room for the kids in the 2nd row of seats, due to them not being able to slide their feet under the front seats and therefore stretch their legs a bit
2. Poor Dust (& water) sealing qualities from what I've been told
3. Lack of LR Mechanics (knowing what they are doing) throughout Australia when compared to Toyotas
4. Parts availability & Costs ?? (I realise it maybe cheaper to source parts O/S, but sometimes time doesn't permit this)
5. LR Reliability ?? -- I'm hoping others can enlighten me if this is a myth with the newer 2.2ltr versions (Pumas)
6. Underneath Fuel carrying capacity is limited ??
7. Lack of having a Auto Transmission available ( I believe there is an Aftermaket option here??)
8. More Rattles ??
9. Towing ability?? (when it gets time where we start towing / touring more with our van than remote touring/camping or a combination of both?)
10.


as I said at the start, I'm not wanting to start a Toyota vs LR fight, but I would truly like to be able to make a better informed decision as to which vehicle would suit our needs way into the future..... When searching the web for the type of touring vehicles people use when travelling throughout the Australia & the world, LR's are quite often seen but I don't know whether they are the old Tdi's or the newer CRD versions.....Looking forward to reading your responses....



cheers....
Rob

[amtravic1]

If you can find a good cruiser, buy it. A much nicer touring vehicle than a Defender.

[PAT303]

Which model defender are you talking about?,the 130 would do everything you ask,a mate of mine had an 80 series and his son is huge,he always said the TDCi rear seat was more comfortable than the 80,I don't know if the 130 rear seat is the same as the 110,plenty of options for fuel,my wagon has 220ltre capacity,they are reliable and are in another league chassis/suspension wise compared to both the 150 and 100 series.The only downside to the 130 is day to day driving,they are long so if you do a lot of city driving it will be a pain but nothing on the market can compare to a 130 for carrying people and gear.DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM NON TDCI OWNERS,trust me on this,there's lots of knockers,my TDCi has been a brilliant tourer,the 130 just gives you more room. Pat

[Robmacca]

Thanks for that Pat....
I did see a TD5 130 ForSale at the local LR mechanic. I had a quick look in and yes they are huge in the Ute area but I couldn't see too much in the Cab area due to the Tinted windows..... but I'm leaning more towards a Wagon for those times of city driving if req'd..... & yes, I was hoping to read replies from people who have or do own the CRD version's of the LR's..... Especially hoping to read more comparisons (pros/cons) on the TD5 vs the newer 2.2ltr ones......

rob


Which model defender are you talking about?,the 130 would do everything you ask,a mate of mine had an 80 series and his son is huge,he always said the TDCi rear seat was more comfortable than the 80,I don't know if the 130 rear seat is the same as the 110,plenty of options for fuel,my wagon has 220ltre capacity,they are reliable and are in another league chassis/suspension wise compared to both the 150 and 100 series.The only downside to the 130 is day to day driving,they are long so if you do a lot of city driving it will be a pain but nothing on the market can compare to a 130 for carrying people and gear.DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM NON TDCI OWNERS,trust me on this,there's lots of knockers,my TDCi has been a brilliant tourer,the 130 just gives you more room. Pat

[Robmacca]

If you can find a good cruiser, buy it. A much nicer touring vehicle than a Defender.

Yes, I can well imagine the 100's would be a good Touring vehicle and this has been my thoughts for a while, but I guess I want to see what the "newer" Defenders are like as well.

I believe the TD5's in the Defenders stopped around 2007 or there abouts.... not sure how the engine that followed the TD5 is like in reliability/performance, etc......

One of my concerns with any CRD diesel is having to replace the CRD injectors and the Huge cost that goes along with that. The local LR mechanic said it costs around 3k to replace the injectors in the TD5 :o

rob

[rangietragic]

Yes, I can well imagine the 100's would be a good Touring vehicle and this has been my thoughts for a while, but I guess I want to see what the "newer" Defenders are like as well.

I believe the TD5's in the Defenders stopped around 2007 or there abouts.... not sure how the engine that followed the TD5 is like in reliability/performance, etc......

One of my concerns with any CRD diesel is having to replace the CRD injectors and the Huge cost that goes along with that. The local LR mechanic said it costs around 3k to replace the injectors in the TD5 :o

rob
It cost me over $3000 for second hand injectors for my 130,but they had a complete engine bolted to them:D

[PAT303]

Yes, I can well imagine the 100's would be a good Touring vehicle and this has been my thoughts for a while, but I guess I want to see what the "newer" Defenders are like as well.

I believe the TD5's in the Defenders stopped around 2007 or there abouts.... not sure how the engine that followed the TD5 is like in reliability/performance, etc......

One of my concerns with any CRD diesel is having to replace the CRD injectors and the Huge cost that goes along with that. The local LR mechanic said it costs around 3k to replace the injectors in the TD5 :o

rob

Injector failure in Land Rovers is very rare,injector failure leaving you stranded with no replacements in Australia with Toyota's is common. Pat

[mudder110]

I had a 2000 td5 disco s model when they first came out had all of the usual electrical problems. came to the conclusion most landrover mechanics either rip you off,or are dills to start with.
the td5 I think in there pure form like the 130 twin cab or ute are great
but I went back to a 300tdi defender can work on it with limited knowledge
suits me, have a look at the amount of problems with the latter ones for some reason landrover and electrics don't have a good repution
cheers

[workingonit]

Have you considered the Toyota GXL? You were considering the 100 for wife's driving confidence, and believe your wife might be persuaded to drive the Defender, so the GXL is not that far removed. Bit more basic than the 100 and a bit more superior/inferior to the Defender (leave it to the pundits to drive the conclusion).

[Robmacca]

Have you considered the Toyota GXL? You were considering the 100 for wife's driving confidence, and believe your wife might be persuaded to drive the Defender, so the GXL is not that far removed. Bit more basic than the 100 and a bit more superior/inferior to the Defender (leave it to the pundits to drive the conclusion).
Yeah possible, but I want to stay away from the V8s for the moment + I'm not a real fan of leaf springs.... Trying to stay with all coils or IFS suspension

[PAT303]

Or find a nice D3,it's better than all of them. Pat

[Robmacca]

Or find a nice D3,it's better than all of them. Pat

Not in the room department :)

[Trundle]

I don't find the 130 a bad size, coming from a Navara, the turning circle isn't that bad at all. And although with the canvas canopy it does have a huge blind spot, it's nothing that doesn't have a work around. It's not a Suzuki, but don't let the size comments scare you off, they can be driven around the city easy enough.

[digger]

Something Ive wondered about but never asked, (so thought Id do it here) is:
as the Puma is a FORD/LR product could you not take it to a ford dealer for motor problems?
just a thought?

[Chops]

I have a 2011 Puma crew cab. Opted for this over the 130 due to its size, but its not about driving issues, but load size,the theory being the more space, the more crap you'll end up carrying. In your case, with three children you may well need it, we only have the dog. :D

Issues for myself have been both mechanical and electrical, with a few others thrown in just for good measure. I have no driveline/engine mods on mine, and have had no issues in just being "standard".

Noisy clutch replaced,, seemed to be a common problem with the early units. Warranty replaced.
Drive line slop/noise/clunking. Warranty replaced.
A couple of other minor-ish things, all covered under warranty.
Water in fuel. Injectors/pump and ECU replaced. Insurance/warranty replaced. Lucky for me because, injector replacement (new) "is" around 5K depending on what sensors are replaced at the same time. Injector pump - $960. ECU $:confused:. Considering the ECU has been replaced twice now, I suspect water was not the issue at all. Who knows, but I've come away not trusting dealers at all.

The car itself,,,, I would'nt have anything else. Very comfy where it counts, and thats on long trips, especially on tracks. Can bolt anything you like onto it. Can take extra water and fuel tanks underneath. Can get a variety of roof consols for inside to help with storage etc as well, or you can custom make anything you want. And when doing custom type work to it, because of its boxy/square nature, it lends itself to the home handyman box workings, so it will never look out of place. ;)

[Rurover]

The 2.2 litre Puma is certainly nicer to drive than the Td5. More power, more torque and much quieter. May even be sealed a bit better I think, and have less rattles.
I recommend you take one for the test drive and get a feel for these things.

But it IS very electronic, more so than the Td5. That brings some advantages in terms of a really nice "throttle free" crawler feature in 1st and reverse gear. Just put it in gear and let it crawl at constant speed over obstacles, or up and down very steep slopes, with no throttle input from the driver.

The fuel capacity issue can be addressed by adding extra sill-tanks under the drivers and passenger side, and even behind the drivers side rear wheel.
eg :: The Long Ranger :: Land Rover Defender (http://thelongranger.com.au/defenderlongrangefueltank.html)

Re auto transmission. This would certainly be a significant extra cost as you'd have to buy an aftermarket transmisison, & adaptor plate, and re plumb tail-shafts etc to make it all fit. I suspect the Td5 may be an easier mod in this respect as there were plenty of auto Discoveries sold with Td5 diesels.

The 2.2 litre engine is a pretty standard Ford unit AFAIK, (used in the new Ford Ranger 4WD for example ) so I imagine engine spares and technical expertise are not too hard to find at your local Ford dealer.
The manual 6 speed Getrag transmission is also used in some Ford vehicles (eg Mustang), but from what I read they rarely give problems.

Spare parts for the Defender can be ridiculously cheap (eg Tail and indicator lights) to quite expensive , but there's a heap of after-market alternatives for axles, diff centres, shockers, radiators, inter-coolers etc.
Plus a huge range of add-on bits to enhance your Defender and make it a truly personalised machine.

Re the rear legroom in the Defender wagon. The latest Defender certainly has more comfortable (and practical) rear seats than the Td5. There's not much fore and aft leg room, but the seats ARE quite high, so you get lots of vertical leg room., I find this more comfortable on long trips than having your legs stuck out in front of you.

Hope all these observations help. As I say, best to arrange a test drive of one to really get a feel for the vehicle. Maybe one of the forum members near you could let you play with their vehicle sometime:)

Alan

[Chops]

Nigel, in answer to your question, yes you can go to a Ford place, I did to have my fuel filter done,, no dramas, but I'm not sure how they would go with things like ECU's etc. And Im not sure how they go running the pilot programs/fault finding etc, buuut, having said that, I took my car to be dyno'ed, and he ran the pilot a program, and actually seems to have fixed the car,,, :cool: something which LR could'nt do IMO.

[shanegtr]

Injector failure in Land Rovers is very rare,injector failure leaving you stranded with no replacements in Australia with Toyota's is common. Pat
Not for the 1HD-FTE engines, it more of an issue with any of the newer D4D engines;)

[justinc]

I would pick a good lc100 (hdj100) but be prepared for mediocrity. They drive/feel like a large 90's camry....:-( . For that reason I would at least pick a sahara model, they are almost lexus like in interior. The other problem with that though is they are selling for nearly as much as a new defender 110!! 10 years old And with 100k+ on the odometer, that doesn't feel good parting with that sort of money:-P . The best part about the cruiser is that fte engine. Imo the best 6cyl td ever to be fitted to a production vehicle, highly modifyable and immensely strong. The 5spd auto trans in the later ones 2003 onward are weaker than the 4spd auto in the earlier, but that isn't really an issue in most cases, only if you intend squeezing a lazy, reliable 650nm and 180kw out of it....B-) the fuel consumption figures are in the low teens for highway, and high teens to early 20s towing, and that is full height 3t caravan towing mind you...they are very economical for a non common rail engine. I guess you need to make up your own mind by driving both, you need long drives too, to really get the idea. in short, there are things about the new defender that will leave you shaking your head, it will most likely leak on you in the rain, it will be noisier and less 'comfortable' than a sahara, and be struggling to drag 3t of van around if that is your idea for the future. But, and the big but is you will not find a more character filled, smile factor 10, totally offroad capable without any mods, world class suspension yet so simple, and touring ready vehicle.

Despite all the plusses and minusses it will be a difficult decision, good luck:-)

Jc

[Robmacca]

Thanks guys.... keep the info coming. It's giving me food for thought..... I received a Defender brochure in the mail yesterday and started reading it.... I was a bit surprised to see the Torque no coming in until 2200rpm, but this maybe normal for most 4cyls ?? Would this be an issue when trying to start of on inclines when towing a heavy load or is the 1st gear low enough?


I have a 2011 Puma crew cab. Opted for this over the 130 due to its size, but its not about driving issues, but load size,the theory being the more space, the more crap you'll end up carrying. In your case, with three children you may well need it, we only have the dog. :D

Issues for myself have been both mechanical and electrical, with a few others thrown in just for good measure. I have no driveline/engine mods on mine, and have had no issues in just being "standard".

Noisy clutch replaced,, seemed to be a common problem with the early units. Warranty replaced.
Drive line slop/noise/clunking. Warranty replaced.
A couple of other minor-ish things, all covered under warranty.
Water in fuel. Injectors/pump and ECU replaced. Insurance/warranty replaced. Lucky for me because, injector replacement (new) "is" around 5K depending on what sensors are replaced at the same time. Injector pump - $960. ECU $:confused:. Considering the ECU has been replaced twice now, I suspect water was not the issue at all. Who knows, but I've come away not trusting dealers at all.

The car itself,,,, I would'nt have anything else. Very comfy where it counts, and thats on long trips, especially on tracks. Can bolt anything you like onto it. Can take extra water and fuel tanks underneath. Can get a variety of roof consols for inside to help with storage etc as well, or you can custom make anything you want. And when doing custom type work to it, because of its boxy/square nature, it lends itself to the home handyman box workings, so it will never look out of place. ;)

WOW :o upwards of $5k for injectors.... Now that's scary considering the potential of getting a dose of bad fuel in remote areas..... What options are there to install AUX Fuel Filters? To protect our Prado from a dose of Bad Fuel, I run a AUX 2micron RACOR Fuel Filter which has saved me from any major $$ to date....




The 2.2 litre Puma is certainly nicer to drive than the Td5. More power, more torque and much quieter. May even be sealed a bit better I think, and have less rattles.
I recommend you take one for the test drive and get a feel for these things.
But it IS very electronic, more so than the Td5. That brings some advantages in terms of a really nice "throttle free" crawler feature in 1st and reverse gear. Just put it in gear and let it crawl at constant speed over obstacles, or up and down very steep slopes, with no throttle input from the driver.

The fuel capacity issue can be addressed by adding extra sill-tanks under the drivers and passenger side, and even behind the drivers side rear wheel.
eg :: The Long Ranger :: Land Rover Defender (http://thelongranger.com.au/defenderlongrangefueltank.html)

Re auto transmission. This would certainly be a significant extra cost as you'd have to buy an aftermarket transmisison, & adaptor plate, and re plumb tail-shafts etc to make it all fit. I suspect the Td5 may be an easier mod in this respect as there were plenty of auto Discoveries sold with Td5 diesels.

The 2.2 litre engine is a pretty standard Ford unit AFAIK, (used in the new Ford Ranger 4WD for example ) so I imagine engine spares and technical expertise are not too hard to find at your local Ford dealer.
The manual 6 speed Getrag transmission is also used in some Ford vehicles (eg Mustang), but from what I read they rarely give problems.

Spare parts for the Defender can be ridiculously cheap (eg Tail and indicator lights) to quite expensive , but there's a heap of after-market alternatives for axles, diff centres, shockers, radiators, inter-coolers etc.
Plus a huge range of add-on bits to enhance your Defender and make it a truly personalised machine.

Re the rear legroom in the Defender wagon. The latest Defender certainly has more comfortable (and practical) rear seats than the Td5. There's not much fore and aft leg room, but the seats ARE quite high, so you get lots of vertical leg room., I find this more comfortable on long trips than having your legs stuck out in front of you.

Hope all these observations help. As I say, best to arrange a test drive of one to really get a feel for the vehicle. Maybe one of the forum members near you could let you play with their vehicle sometime:)

Alan

Hey Alan, thanks for your reply. Having more Electronics can be a concern if they are unreliable and I guess by adding a Code Scanner to your Toolbox may help for any issues that may arise...... I did a search on LR Dealerships/mechanics and there's no a great deal of them through out Australia. Not sure if that would pose a problem when travelling in the outback areas.




Not for the 1HD-FTE engines, it more of an issue with any of the newer D4D engines;)

Totally agree with u here.... I use to own a old 105's 105's Cruiser (Solid Axle F&R version) and it was ok, but I was never 100% happy.... Some years later I went for a drive in one with the 1HD-FTE and was won over, then add to that the performance mods, etc you can do and it was my vehicle of choice at that time, but the PRICE is way too high, but in recent times it hass started to come down albeit still with a fair bit of kms on the clock (200k+ kms)




I would pick a good lc100 (hdj100) but be prepared for mediocrity. They drive/feel like a large 90's camry....:-( . For that reason I would at least pick a sahara model, they are almost lexus like in interior. The other problem with that though is they are selling for nearly as much as a new defender 110!! 10 years old And with 100k+ on the odometer, that doesn't feel good parting with that sort of money:-P . The best part about the cruiser is that fte engine. Imo the best 6cyl td ever to be fitted to a production vehicle, highly modifyable and immensely strong. The 5spd auto trans in the later ones 2003 onward are weaker than the 4spd auto in the earlier, but that isn't really an issue in most cases, only if you intend squeezing a lazy, reliable 650nm and 180kw out of it....B-) the fuel consumption figures are in the low teens for highway, and high teens to early 20s towing, and that is full height 3t caravan towing mind you...they are very economical for a non common rail engine. I guess you need to make up your own mind by driving both, you need long drives too, to really get the idea. in short, there are things about the new defender that will leave you shaking your head, it will most likely leak on you in the rain, it will be noisier and less 'comfortable' than a sahara, and be struggling to drag 3t of van around if that is your idea for the future. But, and the big but is you will not find a more character filled, smile factor 10, totally offroad capable without any mods, world class suspension yet so simple, and touring ready vehicle.

Despite all the plusses and minusses it will be a difficult decision, good luck:-)

Jc

Hey JC.... I've seen quite a few "well setup" 100's that look the goods and what not, but u are probably right in regards to the character of the vehicle.... I would be looking for a GXL as I'm not really after the added benefits (& possible more problems to go wrong as the vehicle ages) of the Sahara, leather would be nice though :) The price & kms is an issue at the moment, but I know the engine can handle quite a few kms....


rob

[frantic]

I own a 2002 td5 , would like a new one AS WELL , but not a landcruiser 100.
My reasons are , my td5 gets 11-12L/100k's with a roof rack, 2 inch lift, and 255/85r16 bighorns(33in) . It seats the whole family(7-5 kids) for a trip, or has room for me and my 2 sons for a day trip.
Accessories are reasonable, as somebody mentioned the factory tank is small, but you could buy a 120l main tank (don't fit LR factory tow bar as it blocks larger main tank, h-Reece from what I have read)and a rear quater tank which holds 40-45l and sits behind rear wheel. You can fit either a water tank or storage box on the other side. With a puma , as you've probably read, if you do a lift you need to put in a dc prop shaft , not needed in a td5. Drivetrain, you can fit either ARB or ashcroft air lockers and if your going to go a bit harder it would be worthwhile to look at ashcroft cv's and axles or hy-tuff.The defender 110/130 until 2002/3 had a rear Salisbury axle which is far stronger than the newer p38 but hung lower. Rock sliders, bullbars ,rear bars are all numerous in choice, have a look at mulgo and rijidij, along with ARB etc.
Legally , a defender 110 wagon can carry 1050 kg, compare that to a cruiser . Add in all your extras like bar, winch, sliders, fridge, all other gear, then the ball weight of your future van, then your occupants weight. You will see why there are numerous companies offering GVM upgrade kits to cruiser/patrol/jeep buyers.
The off-road view from a defender compared to a cruiser is chalk and cheese. A Prado has a reasonably good view off road of it's extremities, a cruiser is worse, a defender is better than almost anything this side of a 101fc.
If your worried about electronics, the third option is a Isuzu powered county/defender.:D

[PAT303]

Something Ive wondered about but never asked, (so thought Id do it here) is:
as the Puma is a FORD/LR product could you not take it to a ford dealer for motor problems?
just a thought?

Sure can,Ford Kalgoorlie had everything on the shelf to service mine except LR's flick and tick list. Pat

[PAT303]

Not in the room department :)

?????,they have more room than a 100 series. Pat

[Robmacca]

?????,they have more room than a 100 series. Pat
Pat, I can't see how a Disco-3 has more room than a 100's.... I've compared the measurements of the 100s vs the 200's and the the 200 is only 30mm wider internally in the front and middle sections. The 100 has a larger cargo area than the 200 due to all the plastic bits in the 200. I haven't measured a D3, but visually there is no way that a D3 is bigger than a 100 in the cargo area. Not sure of the internal width of the front and middle sections though but would have thought at best that they are similar

[PAT303]

Land Rover put 7 seats on the ground and designed the vehicle around them,the reason they are boxed shaped,owners will tell you the D3/4 are miles ahead of other vehicles in regard to interior space. Pat

[Dougal]

I would pick a good lc100 (hdj100) but be prepared for mediocrity. They drive/feel like a large 90's camry....:-( . For that reason I would at least pick a sahara model, they are almost lexus like in interior. The other problem with that though is they are selling for nearly as much as a new defender 110!! 10 years old And with 100k+ on the odometer, that doesn't feel good parting with that sort of money:-P . The best part about the cruiser is that fte engine. Imo the best 6cyl td ever to be fitted to a production vehicle, highly modifyable and immensely strong. The 5spd auto trans in the later ones 2003 onward are weaker than the 4spd auto in the earlier, but that isn't really an issue in most cases, only if you intend squeezing a lazy, reliable 650nm and 180kw out of it....B-) the fuel consumption figures are in the low teens for highway, and high teens to early 20s towing, and that is full height 3t caravan towing mind you...they are very economical for a non common rail engine. I guess you need to make up your own mind by driving both, you need long drives too, to really get the idea. in short, there are things about the new defender that will leave you shaking your head, it will most likely leak on you in the rain, it will be noisier and less 'comfortable' than a sahara, and be struggling to drag 3t of van around if that is your idea for the future. But, and the big but is you will not find a more character filled, smile factor 10, totally offroad capable without any mods, world class suspension yet so simple, and touring ready vehicle.

Despite all the plusses and minusses it will be a difficult decision, good luck:-)

Jc

Justin and I had some good discussions about these 100 series a few months back. A family member of mine bought one new top spec (leather,height control, electronic suspension etc) with the 4sp auto about 14 years ago and still has it.

They are the best Toyota has built.
Good points:
Excellent engine with excellent potential for more power torque.
Excellent brakes.
Lots of room.
NVH is very good.
Very reliable.
It is essentially designed to fit 33" rubber.
Heated leather seats.

Bad points:
Steering feels like it's connected to the wheels with soggy springs.
Electronic throttle feels very vague and is very hard to maintain speed on slight gradients.
It handles like a boat.
At ~80km/h it's an exceptionally smooth and relaxed cruiser. At ~100km/h it becomes a handful on any corners or gradients.
Fuel economy.
Offroad ability.

The fuel economy and offroad ability are both worse than any diesel landrover. It requires momentum and a big run-up to get through parts that a classic rangerover can literally idle through.
Expect 12-15 litres/100km without towing. To my knowledge this vehicle has only hit 10 litres/100km once and that's driving around 80km/h on highway.

The handling is numb. The combination of wooly steering, soggy suspension and vague throttle make it roughly 15 minutes slower than driving a classic rangie over a 200km trip (sticking to the speed limit on straights, taking corners at comfortable speeds).
You will need the cruise control.

This vehicle will likely be replaced with a disco 4 or RRS if anything happened to it.

[Doc130]

Are you still going on about this, If you want a real 4 wd get a defender simple as that!! Your trying to compare a 100 series to vehicle that used in the military, come on, don't make me laugh!!! And the gxl or whatever Toyota needs serious work to follow a stock defender. The only place a Toyota is more capable is on the road!!! Toyota owners are brainwashed by the badge!!!

[Redback]

Pat, I can't see how a Disco-3 has more room than a 100's.... I've compared the measurements of the 100s vs the 200's and the the 200 is only 30mm wider internally in the front and middle sections. The 100 has a larger cargo area than the 200 due to all the plastic bits in the 200. I haven't measured a D3, but visually there is no way that a D3 is bigger than a 100 in the cargo area. Not sure of the internal width of the front and middle sections though but would have thought at best that they are similar


Land Rover put 7 seats on the ground and designed the vehicle around them,the reason they are boxed shaped,owners will tell you the D3/4 are miles ahead of other vehicles in regard to interior space. Pat

I was in the market for a new 4X4, my choices to look at were;

Defender

100s/200s Cruiser

Pajero

Disco 4

Space was a major factor, also comfort, power for towing, economy(not too important though) and budget.

Now space in these was good and by far the Defender is miles ahead, next was the Disco(to my supprise:eek:) then the 100/200, so with this the Paj was crossed off, shame really cause drove the best of the 3 others aside from the D4, Kerry(other half) didn't like the Fender:( so that left the 100/200 and the D4, we picked the D4 because it was the nices to drive, better economy, more load space(marginal though) and we got a great price.

So far it has done everything we have asked, but having said all that I'd be happy with a 100 or 200 series cruiser, I quite like the both of them, I would haved loved to get a Defender, but both of us needed to like it.

The D4 is very Tardis like, they don't look big, but it's big inside, go check one out.

Baz.

[Robmacca]

Thanks Baz.....
A D4 at this point in time is not what I'm looking for, for various reasons, but when the kids are off our hands then maybe..... When we were up at the Cape early this year, we kept running into a young couple with a new born bub that were doing a 5mth trip around Aus & they were driving a D3 V8 (I think - it was very quiet) and towing a Campertrailer..... It went really well and is a nice car but it's just not what I'm looking for at this point in time... Not sure how 3 kids and all your gear and Fuel would go w/o towing....



I was in the market for a new 4X4, my choices to look at were;

Defender

100s/200s Cruiser

Pajero

Disco 4

Space was a major factor, also comfort, power for towing, economy(not too important though) and budget.

Now space in these was good and by far the Defender is miles ahead, next was the Disco(to my supprise:eek:) then the 100/200, so with this the Paj was crossed off, shame really cause drove the best of the 3 others aside from the D4, Kerry(other half) didn't like the Fender:( so that left the 100/200 and the D4, we picked the D4 because it was the nices to drive, better economy, more load space(marginal though) and we got a great price.

So far it has done everything we have asked, but having said all that I'd be happy with a 100 or 200 series cruiser, I quite like the both of them, I would haved loved to get a Defender, but both of us needed to like it.

The D4 is very Tardis like, they don't look big, but it's big inside, go check one out.

Baz.

[Robmacca]

PM sent....


I own a 2002 td5 , would like a new one AS WELL , but not a landcruiser 100.
My reasons are , my td5 gets 11-12L/100k's with a roof rack, 2 inch lift, and 255/85r16 bighorns(33in) . It seats the whole family(7-5 kids) for a trip, or has room for me and my 2 sons for a day trip.
Accessories are reasonable, as somebody mentioned the factory tank is small, but you could buy a 120l main tank (don't fit LR factory tow bar as it blocks larger main tank, h-Reece from what I have read)and a rear quater tank which holds 40-45l and sits behind rear wheel. You can fit either a water tank or storage box on the other side. With a puma , as you've probably read, if you do a lift you need to put in a dc prop shaft , not needed in a td5. Drivetrain, you can fit either ARB or ashcroft air lockers and if your going to go a bit harder it would be worthwhile to look at ashcroft cv's and axles or hy-tuff.The defender 110/130 until 2002/3 had a rear Salisbury axle which is far stronger than the newer p38 but hung lower. Rock sliders, bullbars ,rear bars are all numerous in choice, have a look at mulgo and rijidij, along with ARB etc.
Legally , a defender 110 wagon can carry 1050 kg, compare that to a cruiser . Add in all your extras like bar, winch, sliders, fridge, all other gear, then the ball weight of your future van, then your occupants weight. You will see why there are numerous companies offering GVM upgrade kits to cruiser/patrol/jeep buyers.
The off-road view from a defender compared to a cruiser is chalk and cheese. A Prado has a reasonably good view off road of it's extremities, a cruiser is worse, a defender is better than almost anything this side of a 101fc.
If your worried about electronics, the third option is a Isuzu powered county/defender.:D

[Robmacca]

Some comments in Blue.....


Justin and I had some good discussions about these 100 series a few months back. A family member of mine bought one new top spec (leather,height control, electronic suspension etc) with the 4sp auto about 14 years ago and still has it.

They are the best Toyota has built.
Good points:
Excellent engine with excellent potential for more power torque.
Excellent brakes.
Lots of room.
NVH is very good.
Very reliable.
It is essentially designed to fit 33" rubber.
Heated leather seats.

Bad points:
Steering feels like it's connected to the wheels with soggy springs. This can and would obviously be fixed via aftermarket suspension which most people end up doing no matter what make of car
Electronic throttle feels very vague and is very hard to maintain speed on slight gradients.This can be rectified via a aftermarket mod but I have heard from a few people with various makes of cars that electronic "vagueness or slow response" is quite common with fly-by-wire 4Wd's
It handles like a boat.Again, suspension upgrade usually helps with that
At ~80km/h it's an exceptionally smooth and relaxed cruiser. At ~100km/h it becomes a handful on any corners or gradients.as b4 suspension helps in this
Fuel economy.I don't think u will get the good economy of a CRD vehicle but it's not bad considering.....
Offroad ability.Again, it can't compete against a Std Defender and will require aftermarket traction aids for those times

The fuel economy and offroad ability are both worse than any diesel landrover. It requires momentum and a big run-up to get through parts that a classic rangerover can literally idle through.
Expect 12-15 litres/100km without towing. To my knowledge this vehicle has only hit 10 litres/100km once and that's driving around 80km/h on highway.Agreed, but the offroad can be helped with lockers and the economy that I've come across from people I know that have them is close to what u mentioned but can be improved along with improvement in performance via installing a chip
The handling is numb. The combination of wooly steering, soggy suspension and vague throttle make it roughly 15 minutes slower than driving a classic rangie over a 200km trip (sticking to the speed limit on straights, taking corners at comfortable speeds).
You will need the cruise control.
This vehicle will likely be replaced with a disco 4 or RRS if anything happened to it.

I realise people are going to mention that u need to add a lot of aftermarket accessories/mods to get it to perform like a Defender, but I would like to think "if" I chose a 100's that some of these "mods" would already be done.....

I'd like to take a Defender for a drive just to see what they are like to drive - 1st as a daily driver & 2nd as a tourer..... The last LR mechanic I spoke to about them said they very agricultural (ie: Rattles; Dust proofing, etc) but they made as a work horse and expedition vehicle. Just not sure what they are like as a daily driver as well....

Thanks for comments, etc as it is helping me understand more about them and giving me another option instead of the only option I originally had in my head.....

[PAT303]

1st as a daily driver would put a D3 in front of a defender,don't get me wrong,both my vehicles are defenders,mine's a Tdi,Her's a TDCi and I'm a defender tragic but if I was in your shoe's I wouldn't buy one,there would be a D3 in the driveway.To make the 100 series outback survivable is big money,$6,000 for the reinforced front end on it's own,the IFS models are grey nomad tar warriors only. Pat

[Redback]

Thanks Baz.....
A D4 at this point in time is not what I'm looking for, for various reasons, but when the kids are off our hands then maybe..... When we were up at the Cape early this year, we kept running into a young couple with a new born bub that were doing a 5mth trip around Aus & they were driving a D3 V8 (I think - it was very quiet) and towing a Campertrailer..... It went really well and is a nice car but it's just not what I'm looking for at this point in time... Not sure how 3 kids and all your gear and Fuel would go w/o towing....




We have swaged it a few times, for up to a week, just the two of us though, we actually had room left over, which supprised the other 3 cars we were away with.

I reckon you really can't go wrong with any of the vehicles you've mentioned, good luck with your quest:D

Baz.

[Dougal]

Some comments in Blue.....



I realise people are going to mention that u need to add a lot of aftermarket accessories/mods to get it to perform like a Defender, but I would like to think "if" I chose a 100's that some of these "mods" would already be done.....

I'd like to take a Defender for a drive just to see what they are like to drive - 1st as a daily driver & 2nd as a tourer..... The last LR mechanic I spoke to about them said they very agricultural (ie: Rattles; Dust proofing, etc) but they made as a work horse and expedition vehicle. Just not sure what they are like as a daily driver as well....

Thanks for comments, etc as it is helping me understand more about them and giving me another option instead of the only option I originally had in my head.....

You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

[Robmacca]

1st as a daily driver would put a D3 in front of a defender,don't get me wrong,both my vehicles are defenders,mine's a Tdi,Her's a TDCi and I'm a defender tragic but if I was in your shoe's I wouldn't buy one,there would be a D3 in the driveway.To make the 100 series outback survivable is big money,$6,000 for the reinforced front end on it's own,the IFS models are grey nomad tar warriors only. Pat

Thanks Pat.....Curious with regards to the $6k to reinforce the front end? U must be referring to more than just reinforcing the lower arm that's prone to cracking ??

[Robmacca]

You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

Dougal, I can't say I agree with everything u said, maybe the 100's are different over in NZ, but the 100's do have a EGR and that's one of things that gets blocked off here in Aust along with some other mods that make the 100's perform very well, but u need to sink some $$ into it to get them to this stage....
Steering & handling, well that comes down to the person doing the job IMO....



Anyhow, I'm really more interested in learning more about the Defenders - TD5 and later models - I'll leave out the D3/D4's at this stage as I can't see them being suitable for a family of 5 along with all the gear, etc, maybe when the kids are off our hands. I'd like to hear about how they perform and what are the common issues may be....

In the past we've done a few remote outback trips, and this is something I want to do more of, especially with the family. I'd like to revisit the CSR and do the Madigan Trk and those kind of trips. These sort of trips I'd prefer not to tow anything and hence why I'm looking at what options there are.....

One possible scenario is that the missus can keep her Prado for daily running around and I'll get a suitable Tourer that we can use for touring and I can also use as a daily runner.... When I did see the new Defender and what it was like inside, it got me thinking.....Plenty of room for all the family and Camping Gear w/o having to resort to towing a trailer; Looks like it would be quite comfortable to ride in; 4cyl Rego; Good fuel economy; would require less mods to make it a suitable "long distance tourer", etc.....

I'm unsure as to whether the TD5 Defenders have a similar interiors or not to the newer Pumas ?? I'm assuming not ?? Is there provision to install a AUX FUEL Filter at all in these Defenders?

Whatever I end up getting, it has to be reasonably comfortable to ride in so the Family doesn't start to hate outback touring.....

[PAT303]

Thanks Pat.....Curious with regards to the $6k to reinforce the front end? U must be referring to more than just reinforcing the lower arm that's prone to cracking ??

The trouble is you can't replace one part,if you do the torsion bars the mounts crack free,do the mounts the chassis cracks,you can't lift the front either or you get vibration because the uni's don't run parallel.Do a search on the Tojo forums for more info,it's quite involved which is why the live axle model with a FTE engine swap is more popular. Pat

[PAT303]

You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

The modulators also suffer from spool wear which causes ABS faults,very similar to the P38 RR,D2 etc,the mags never mention it when doing ''best buy'' articles because new modulators are eye watering exxy. Pat

[Dougal]

Dougal, I can't say I agree with everything u said, maybe the 100's are different over in NZ, but the 100's do have a EGR and that's one of things that gets blocked off here in Aust along with some other mods that make the 100's perform very well, but u need to sink some $$ into it to get them to this stage....

Depends on the year. This is the only 100 series I have seen without it. Which combined with the more advanced timing (not possible for NOx reasons on later vehicles) makes this particular one the most fuel efficient.

Another 100 series owner living nearby with the 5sp auto 100 series (which will have EGR) gets even worse fuel economy.


Steering & handling, well that comes down to the person doing the job IMO....

I don't think you understand. The steering on these doesn't have enough caster for feel or stability. You cannot adjust that.

[Dougal]

The modulators also suffer from spool wear which causes ABS faults,very similar to the P38 RR,D2 etc,the mags never mention it when doing ''best buy'' articles because new modulators are eye watering exxy. Pat

This one has never had an ABS fault and was only a few years old when I experienced it.
Braking gently driving down a ski field access road and one wheel was on loose gravel. Off she goes.

[PAT303]

Dougal, I can't say I agree with everything u said, maybe the 100's are different over in NZ, but the 100's do have a EGR and that's one of things that gets blocked off here in Aust along with some other mods that make the 100's perform very well, but u need to sink some $$ into it to get them to this stage....
Steering & handling, well that comes down to the person doing the job IMO....



Anyhow, I'm really more interested in learning more about the Defenders - TD5 and later models - I'll leave out the D3/D4's at this stage as I can't see them being suitable for a family of 5 along with all the gear, etc, maybe when the kids are off our hands. I'd like to hear about how they perform and what are the common issues may be....

In the past we've done a few remote outback trips, and this is something I want to do more of, especially with the family. I'd like to revisit the CSR and do the Madigan Trk and those kind of trips. These sort of trips I'd prefer not to tow anything and hence why I'm looking at what options there are.....

One possible scenario is that the missus can keep her Prado for daily running around and I'll get a suitable Tourer that we can use for touring and I can also use as a daily runner.... When I did see the new Defender and what it was like inside, it got me thinking.....Plenty of room for all the family and Camping Gear w/o having to resort to towing a trailer; Looks like it would be quite comfortable to ride in; 4cyl Rego; Good fuel economy; would require less mods to make it a suitable "long distance tourer", etc.....

I'm unsure as to whether the TD5 Defenders have a similar interiors or not to the newer Pumas ?? I'm assuming not ?? Is there provision to install a AUX FUEL Filter at all in these Defenders?

Whatever I end up getting, it has to be reasonably comfortable to ride in so the Family doesn't start to hate outback touring.....

The TDCi defender is a big leap over the Tdi/Td5 models in every way,a TDCi will do a hill start with a van on the back that would have a Tdi/Td5 driver cooking his clutch empty,more power,sixth gear,better A/C,better traction control,better ABS and more rear leg room.Mine has been all over WA,SA to NSW and with almost 100,000k's on the clock is as tight as a drum. Pat

[Disco Muppet]

One possible scenario is that the missus can keep her Prado for daily running around and I'll get a suitable Tourer that we can use for touring and I can also use as a daily runner.... When I did see the new Defender and what it was like inside, it got me thinking.....Plenty of room for all the family and Camping Gear w/o having to resort to towing a trailer; Looks like it would be quite comfortable to ride in; 4cyl Rego; Good fuel economy; would require less mods to make it a suitable "long distance tourer", etc.....

I'm unsure as to whether the TD5 Defenders have a similar interiors or not to the newer Pumas ?? I'm assuming not ?? Is there provision to install a AUX FUEL Filter at all in these Defenders?

Whatever I end up getting, it has to be reasonably comfortable to ride in so the Family doesn't start to hate outback touring.....

Td5 has a different interior, the Pumas aircon actually works for starters.
The Td5 is a 5 Cyl so no 4 Cyl rego (hint.. Td5).
5 speed in the Td5 as opposed to the 6 speed in the Puma.
If I were taking a family of 5 I'd go a Puma. I prefer the Td5 but I don't want to listen to my family bitch the whole trip :p

[shanegtr]

I'll leave out the D3/D4's at this stage as I can't see them being suitable for a family of 5 along with all the gear, ..

I've just moved from an 80 series cruiser to a D3, and I've got 4 kids. So either way I will have at least one 3rd row seat up when touring regardless of what vehicle I drive. Anyway, with the 3rd row not in use I can't really see much difference in cargo space between the two

[Chops]

Any vehicle can have an Aux fuel filter put on it. Mine will have a second hand unit from a D2 TD5 which as I understand also has a water alarm with it as well.
The only factor is to have I think, a 10micron filter which is slightly larger than the factory fitted 2 or 5 micron (?). This is to ensure the pump is not being over worked.

[NT5224]

Hi folks

Just spotted this thread, and just to add some personal experience: I live and work in remote in Northern Australia and bought a new 100 series Tojo in 2004 and a new Land Rover Puma 110 HCPU in 2012.

I accept the 100 series is renown as a highly reliable vehicle but the one I was delivered turned out to be an absolute lemon, compounded with dreadful aftersales service and warranty support (the Mount Isa Tojo Dealer). I ended up selling it within 18 months at a significant loss.

By contrast the TDCI Land Rover has been awesome from new, and Land Rover after sales has been terrific (even in the Top End!)

Considering how the two cars drive from new, I'd say the new Land Rover has it hands down over the new 100 series off road, especially in the wet. In fact I've yet to see another 4WD match the Puma on the tracks during the monsoon. Of course as said before, the 100 series was much more comfortable for long drives and mine had a dual tanks which was a bonus...

How reliable a used Tojo lump with >100k already on the clock compared a brand new Ford 2.2? Sure Tojo's are pretty reliable units but they are not invulnerable to the effects of aging and abuse, and I reckon the new Ford engines are proving pretty damn reliable...

For touring don't forget the Tojo GVM -five adults, plus full fuel and kit is gonna have you damn close to GVM and all the stress on the vehicle that that implies.

I love Toyota (I still run an unreabreakable old 76 ute to haul my fire unit), and I love Land Rover too, but have to say the TDCI is the most capable vehicle I have ever owned from new. I personally would not hesitate to buy one over a 100 series or even a 79 series Tojo.

Cheers

Alan

[Robmacca]

Thanks Alan, good to hear about 1st hand experiences......




Hi folks

Just spotted this thread, and just to add some personal experience: I live and work in remote in Northern Australia and bought a new 100 series Tojo in 2004 and a new Land Rover Puma 110 HCPU in 2012.

I accept the 100 series is renown as a highly reliable vehicle but the one I was delivered turned out to be an absolute lemon, compounded with dreadful aftersales service and warranty support (the Mount Isa Tojo Dealer). I ended up selling it within 18 months at a significant loss.

By contrast the TDCI Land Rover has been awesome from new, and Land Rover after sales has been terrific (even in the Top End!)

Considering how the two cars drive from new, I'd say the new Land Rover has it hands down over the new 100 series off road, especially in the wet. In fact I've yet to see another 4WD match the Puma on the tracks during the monsoon. Of course as said before, the 100 series was much more comfortable for long drives and mine had a dual tanks which was a bonus...

How reliable a used Tojo lump with >100k already on the clock compared a brand new Ford 2.2? Sure Tojo's are pretty reliable units but they are not invulnerable to the effects of aging and abuse, and I reckon the new Ford engines are proving pretty damn reliable...

For touring don't forget the Tojo GVM -five adults, plus full fuel and kit is gonna have you damn close to GVM and all the stress on the vehicle that that implies.

I love Toyota (I still run an unreabreakable old 76 ute to haul my fire unit), and I love Land Rover too, but have to say the TDCI is the most capable vehicle I have ever owned from new. I personally would not hesitate to buy one over a 100 series or even a 79 series Tojo.

Cheers

Alan

[Robmacca]

Hey Chops thanks for your comment, but I am curious about your 10micron comment and not wanting to stress the pump....

I had this same comments from over on the Toyota forum when I installed a 2micron Racor Aux Fuel Filter on our Prado.... The comment was the same thing.
To my knowledge, it's the "Flow Rate" that needs to be considered more. As long as your Aux Filter has a suitable Flow Rate, then it will not put any extra pressure on your Pump. I've had one on the missus Prado for the past 100k kms and have never had a problem, especially with Toyota's poor servicing schedule of the under bonnet Fuel Filter - They simply don't change it until the light/alarm comes on..... bad idea IMO. Every time I've change my Aux Filter, it's been black and dirty inside......



Any vehicle can have an Aux fuel filter put on it. Mine will have a second hand unit from a D2 TD5 which as I understand also has a water alarm with it as well.
The only factor is to have I think, a 10micron filter which is slightly larger than the factory fitted 2 or 5 micron (?). This is to ensure the pump is not being over worked.

[Chops]

Morning Robmacca, (Rob?),

It's been said to me by a couple of mechanics that because the Puma pump "sucks" as opposed to pushing the fuel up, there's the possibility that it would wear faster. Have had others say it doesn't matter, as the pump itself is a very good unit, and this statement in particular came from the guy who tested my original pump,which I now have at home along with the old injectors, so my theory is, he probably knows best. When he tested my pump for LR at the RACV's demand, he said it passed with flying colours, but LR swapped it out anyway.
But, the reason for the second pump is purely to remove water and the "larger" contaminants, so my thinking is, why risk it, even though I have a spare,,,, I really don't need the hassle or expense of fitting it up.

Hope this helps. I do love my car, have wanted one ever since I had my old S111 25+ years ago, and she has not disappointed me in any way. I've had three Tojo's, one being a brand new 75 series ute, and even with my dramas, you still can't wipe the smile off my face when I'm behind the wheel.

There may be a lot of Tojo's around, but check out how many Transit vans are out there, and these are being used as delivery vans by guys who don't service them right, treat them like race cars and generally abuse the crap out of them.
Speaks volumes for the toughness of the 2,4 motor really.

[PAT303]

I use a Mr Filter Funnel when filling in the bush,even at servo's,about $50 posted,easy,too many people make mountains out of mole hills. Pat

[Ean Austral]

I must say that this is a confusing thread, I say this as it seems like money is not an issue with all the gear/mods you seem to be prepared to make.


I haven't owned a 100series but been in plenty and also done the Canning stock route with one in our group, and all bar the fuel leak it endured and the cracked diff housing it performed great. We were in a D2 TD5, and they performed without issue , except 1 getting a fuel leak also.


From what I observed this is what I can add. Off the shelf the 100series had
1-larger fuel tanks, which in the end it needed due to its extra fuel usage than the TD5's
2- seemed to have a far greater choice of tyre options, and spare rims/parts etc were available just about anywhere.
3-had more room than the D2 but not by as much as you think.
4- this one had a full after market suspension set up so it seemed to perform well enough, but the D2 did everything the 100 series did.


The only down side was the cost, he paid top $$$ for a very used high KM car that I thought was very basic, and the seats were some of the most uncomfortable I had sat in.


The defender will need a aftermarket long range tank straight up as the standard tank seems to be one of the biggest complaints I've read of. I will leave the rest up to the people who know more about the defender than me.
You need to do some driving and some costing me thinks


Good luck with it.


Cheers Ean

[TerryO]

I find it a bit confusing as well,surely if your looking at a 100 series then why wouldn't you also consider a D3/4?

From memory you seem to believe a D3/4 has far less room in it than a 100 series does and or a defender and that is why you were discounting it.

It does have less than a Defender but after looking previously on a number of occasions at the 100 series compared to the D3 then the Disco is bigger inside storage wise than the Land Cruiser.

If you have based your decision on ruling out the Disco based on the lack of room argument then you might be short changing yourself.

Why not test drive all three and then make your decision?

[Robmacca]

Is this what happens when u don't reinforce the front suspension lower arms on a 100's :)

Costly exercise for this chap.....

[PAT303]

Thats what the $6,000 tries to avoid. Pat

[Robmacca]

Guys....

Just playing around with some fuel figures here when remote touring in desert areas, etc... (remember, I'm just playing with figures here :) )

100's Fuel Tank Capacity: 255ltrs (Aftermaket LR Tank fitted)

100's Fuel Economy @
20ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1100kms
19ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.26kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1157kms
18ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.55kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1222kms
17ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.88kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1293kms
16ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 6.25kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1375kms

Now obviously the LR's will get better economy than the 100s, but what I am interested in is how much Fuel a LR will require to carry to cover the SAME distances.....

If the LR's got the following economy (I'm guessing here) over the same terrain & distance then:

@ 11ltrs/100kms = 9kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 153ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 122ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 12ltrs/100kms = 8.3kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 165ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 132ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 13ltrs/100kms = 7.7kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 178ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 142ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 14ltrs/100kms = 7.1kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 193ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 155ltrs req'd (+ reserve)


So, looking on some of the websites that supply LR tanks, it looks like a bit of a variety depending on year/model, etc but on average is looks like the main tank can be replaced with a 120ltr, then a couple of Sill Aux tanks that vary in size from 35>80ltrs or there abouts. To add these AUX tanks to a Defender, I'm assuming a fair bit of $$ would be req'd ??


So, for those u that have Defender and do remote touring, etc, what sort of economy do u guys get and how much fuel do u carry to cover distances of 1000kms or more....?

If u don't have the fuel carrying capacity underneath the vehicle, then where do u carry it ?

[Redback]

Guys....

Just playing around with some fuel figures here when remote touring in desert areas, etc... (remember, I'm just playing with figures here :) )

100's Fuel Tank Capacity: 255ltrs (Aftermaket LR Tank fitted)

100's Fuel Economy @
20ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1100kms
19ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.26kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1157kms
18ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.55kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1222kms
17ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 5.88kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1293kms
16ltrs/100kms = Fuel Range = 6.25kms/ltr x 220ltrs (leaves 35ltrs in reserve) = 1375kms

Now obviously the LR's will get better economy than the 100s, but what I am interested in is how much Fuel a LR will require to carry to cover the SAME distances.....

If the LR's got the following economy (I'm guessing here) over the same terrain & distance then:

@ 11ltrs/100kms = 9kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 153ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 122ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 12ltrs/100kms = 8.3kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 165ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 132ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 13ltrs/100kms = 7.7kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 178ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 142ltrs req'd (+ reserve)

@ 14ltrs/100kms = 7.1kms/ltr (I'll just list the fuel req'd between the best and worst distances listed above):
For 1375kms travelled = 193ltrs req'd (+ reserve)
For 1100kms travelled = 155ltrs req'd (+ reserve)


So, looking on some of the websites that supply LR tanks, it looks like a bit of a variety depending on year/model, etc but on average is looks like the main tank can be replaced with a 120ltr, then a couple of Sill Aux tanks that vary in size from 35>80ltrs or there abouts. To add these AUX tanks to a Defender, I'm assuming a fair bit of $$ would be req'd ??


So, for those u that have Defender and do remote touring, etc, what sort of economy do u guys get and how much fuel do u carry to cover distances of 1000kms or more....?

If u don't have the fuel carrying capacity underneath the vehicle, then where do u carry it ?

I can garrantee you that if you are touring in a TD5, 2.4l TDCi or 2.2l TDCi Defender 110, and not towing, 11l to low 12l per 100ks will be your fuel economy, I'm basing this on my experience with my TD5 D2, we did the Cape in 09, on the trip were 2 D2s and a Puma Defender, all of us towing a camper, 14l/100ks was the worst all 3 of us had, our best economy for that trip, was 12l/100k.

Now our D4 is a bit different, we average about 1 to 2Litres/100s more than we did towing in the D2, the best economy we ever got from the D4 towing was 14.5l/100ks, we never did a non towing tour in our D2, so I have no record of the economy, but to and from work was mid 10s/100k, the D4 is mid 11s to 12l/100k to and from work, best we have gotten from the D4, 10.3L/100ks, Helensburgh to Glouchester and back, we average on our fully loaded trips around mid 11s to 12s/100ks to places like the high country.

Anyway, basing your criteria on economy, room and offroad performance, the Defender wins hands down, comfort is not the Defenders forte, but that can be different for different people, some on here find the Defender really comfortable, others don't, me personally, I think the Defender is fine once you get used to it, I drove one to work and back for a few days and loved it.

I reckon just putting a 130lt LR Tank will do.

Baz.

[gusthedog]

I use a Mr Filter Funnel when filling in the bush,even at servo's,about $50 posted,easy,too many people make mountains out of mole hills. Pat

Wicked idea Pat. Waaaay easier than installing an extra in line filter. ;)

[Ean Austral]

The fuel figures posted is interesting, but I must ask how many kms do you need to be able to cover for your planned trips ?


We did the canning stock route in a D2 that carried 150ltrs, but we had fuel at the fuel dump bit less than half way along,( think its 1700ks long from memory ), but fuel was also available at the community at well 33, so I guess the real range that was needed was closer to 700ks max.


I guess if you were doing the Anne Beadell hwy then sure those ranges you speak of may be a necessity but from my expierence sooner or later you need fuel. Generally I have found when travelling remote if the oppertunity of fuel comes up you buy some anyway, even if its only 20ltrs.


Our D3 carries 190 ltrs , and I can drive a very comfortable 1700kms without thinking of fuel, but the reality is we normally stop way before then and top up.


Cheers Ean

[Robmacca]

I see your point and agree aswell, but sometimes it's nice to have the option &/or the ability to drive past through those more expensive places that sell fuel instead of having to fill up..... I also realise that this is sometime u need to factor into your planning / costs, but still, having the ability to drive past a place that is selling diesel for $3.20/ltr is quite nice......



The fuel figures posted is interesting, but I must ask how many kms do you need to be able to cover for your planned trips ?


We did the canning stock route in a D2 that carried 150ltrs, but we had fuel at the fuel dump bit less than half way along,( think its 1700ks long from memory ), but fuel was also available at the community at well 33, so I guess the real range that was needed was closer to 700ks max.


I guess if you were doing the Anne Beadell hwy then sure those ranges you speak of may be a necessity but from my expierence sooner or later you need fuel. Generally I have found when travelling remote if the oppertunity of fuel comes up you buy some anyway, even if its only 20ltrs.


Our D3 carries 190 ltrs , and I can drive a very comfortable 1700kms without thinking of fuel, but the reality is we normally stop way before then and top up.


Cheers Ean

[Chops]

As a point of interest Rob, how often do you plan on these long outback excursions?
We are planning plenty of trips outback, and hope to be able to stay out there working if we can organise it.
For this, I'm planning on an extra tank,,, size yet to be determined, but if it wasn't for the fact we know we're going to be out there a fair bit, a couple of Jerry Cans would do just fine.
Our stock as a rock Puma has a workable range of around 550k's a tank, which leaves I believe about 80-90k's in the tank.

I guess being able to bypass expensive fuel is a bonus, but really, when's alls said and done, if your worried that much about the cost of a tank of juice or two, perhaps you shouldn't be out there. If anything major should break, your going to be up for a whole lot more than the fuel cost, and that's just to get you to civilization.

[2stroke]

Last year on our Canning trip we had 3 vehicles, my 300tdi 130 averageing 11.5 l per 100 km, a stretched dualcab 100 series, nonturbo, at 14.5 l per 100 km and a 75 series diesel ute at 16 l per 100 km. The trip was 10500km all up so the others poured in 300 and 550 litres of diesel more than I did. Mind you if you budget for it it's not that much of a big deal. I think reliability is the important thing as well as carrying capacity.

[Robmacca]

Hey Marcus ,
When I was young & single we did the CSR and a lot of the central Deserts and now I'd like to be able to take the family back out there to experience the area as well. When we done the CSR back in '89, there was only the one fuel dump at Well 23 if my memory is correct. So we had to carry a fair bit back then. I know things have changed now and there's more options in refueling, etc, but when you're out in the middle of nowhere and you come across an area that u might want to explore a little bit more, well then if u have ample fuel, then u can go and have a little explore. If you are only carrying enough fuel to get u from A to B + a bit extra, well then u may have to forget about that little side detour and who knows what u are missing out on.... I like to do a bit of exploring on the side when we go touring and having the knowledge that I have enough fuel on board is good to know.....

I mainly posted this fuel carrying post as I was curious to know what those guys who drive defenders and do the more remote touring, what sort of fuel capacity they carry on board. I've quite often seen LR's with Jerrycans on the roofrack or hanging off the rear, etc and it got me thinking....




As a point of interest Rob, how often do you plan on these long outback excursions?
We are planning plenty of trips outback, and hope to be able to stay out there working if we can organise it.
For this, I'm planning on an extra tank,,, size yet to be determined, but if it wasn't for the fact we know we're going to be out there a fair bit, a couple of Jerry Cans would do just fine.
Our stock as a rock Puma has a workable range of around 550k's a tank, which leaves I believe about 80-90k's in the tank.

I guess being able to bypass expensive fuel is a bonus, but really, when's alls said and done, if your worried that much about the cost of a tank of juice or two, perhaps you shouldn't be out there. If anything major should break, your going to be up for a whole lot more than the fuel cost, and that's just to get you to civilization.

[2stroke]

The 130 has a Longranger 120 l main tank with a plastic second tank of 66l. I carried 3 jerry cans for backup
We filled up at Kunawarritji , near well 33 and got all the way to Leonora without using the jerrycans, next fuel stop was the Stuart highway. I guess the long range helps minimize the risk of getting a dodgy batch of fuel which is bad for any diesel.

[PAT303]

Wicked idea Pat. Waaaay easier than installing an extra in line filter. ;)

You might want to put your thinking cap on me thinks,with a Mr Filter Funnel you find out BEFORE filling your tank weather the fuel is contaminated ;););). Pat

[Redback]

Hey Marcus ,
When I was young & single we did the CSR and a lot of the central Deserts and now I'd like to be able to take the family back out there to experience the area as well. When we done the CSR back in '89, there was only the one fuel dump at Well 23 if my memory is correct. So we had to carry a fair bit back then. I know things have changed now and there's more options in refueling, etc, but when you're out in the middle of nowhere and you come across an area that u might want to explore a little bit more, well then if u have ample fuel, then u can go and have a little explore. If you are only carrying enough fuel to get u from A to B + a bit extra, well then u may have to forget about that little side detour and who knows what u are missing out on.... I like to do a bit of exploring on the side when we go touring and having the knowledge that I have enough fuel on board is good to know.....

I mainly posted this fuel carrying post as I was curious to know what those guys who drive defenders and do the more remote touring, what sort of fuel capacity they carry on board. I've quite often seen LR's with Jerrycans on the roofrack or hanging off the rear, etc and it got me thinking....





I finally figured it out, 4wdadvent:Thump::MileStone:

The name I mean, couldn't work out where I'd seen it, I'm slow.

Baz.

[Robmacca]

Our D3 carries 190 ltrs , and I can drive a very comfortable 1700kms without thinking of fuel, but the reality is we normally stop way before then and top up.


Cheers Ean

Ean..... Is that all under the vehicle in aftermarket LR tanks ??

[Ean Austral]

Ean..... Is that all under the vehicle in aftermarket LR tanks ??



Gday Rob,


Yep, the D3/D4 are like the 80 series cruiser, they have the spare wheel under the rear of the vehicle, so ours had it removed and a Long Range tank installed before we bought it.
Standard tank = 85 odd ltrs
Longrange Tank = 100 odd ltrs


Cheers Ean