LT230 PTO Endurance limit?

[kreecha]

Hi Guys.

I want to run a PTO hydro pump behind an LT230. I will be using the hydraulics to power a log splitter and firewood processor. I will want to run the PTO while the transfer is disengaged (in neutral). I will want to run the PTO for 8hrs a day.

The only issue that concerns me is;
Because I will be operating for an extended period in neutral, the dog engagement collar will be floating for a longer duration than expected.

Will the transfer case survive? Will I cause damage?

Cheers, Adam.

[weeds]

Good question........

I tell the lads that I can winch all day......

Maybe leave the CDL engaged and jack one wheel up.......

So your not so worried about the car running with a constant low load.....no that I have much input on glazing etc

[Tank]

I'd be concerned about running the engine at idle/low revs for 8 hours at a time, good wat to stuff the rings and glaze the bores, would be better off with a small engine powered hydraulic pump, Regards Frank.
BTW why do you need firewood in Darwin?

[Rick1970]

I'd be concerned about running the engine at idle/low revs for 8 hours at a time, good wat to stuff the rings and glaze the bores, would be better off with a small engine powered hydraulic pump, Regards Frank.
BTW why do you need firewood in Darwin?


This would be my concern to. I see truck mounted/run EWP's in at work that do limited km's but lots of low load PTO hours. By 100k they are starting to get smokey at idle.


You mite also want to see what the max torque rating for the PTO is and how it compares with the input HP required by the pump. From fuzzy memory the pto's fitted to 75 series Landcruisers were only good for a intermintant 12HP.

[kreecha]

Good question........

I tell the lads that I can winch all day......

Maybe leave the CDL engaged and jack one wheel up.......

So your not so worried about the car running with a constant low load.....no that I have much input on glazing etc


Thanks for your reply weeds,

I'm certain your method won't work. I need to move the rig after every cut tree so the jacking of a wheel could be painful, and not inline with my goal.

Thankyou again. Cheers Adam.

[isuzurover]

Thanks for your reply weeds,

I'm certain your method won't work. I need to move the rig after every cut tree so the jacking of a wheel could be painful, and not inline with my goal.

Thankyou again. Cheers Adam.

not to mention it would wear out your centre diff and axle diff. I wouldn't be concerned about the t-case. Just run a good oil and install a hand throttle.

[kreecha]

I'd be concerned about running the engine at idle/low revs for 8 hours at a time, good wat to stuff the rings and glaze the bores, would be better off with a small engine powered hydraulic pump, Regards Frank.
BTW why do you need firewood in Darwin?


RE: firewood in Darwin, I'm buying land in QLD.

I too am concerned about glazing I hope to combat it by;
- Doing "burnouts" within a defined time period,
- designing hydraulic system to work at 2000RPM,
- 2 seperate hydraulic systems and a theoretical combine load of (I calculated) 48.3kw

Cheers, Adam

[kreecha]

This would be my concern to. I see truck mounted/run EWP's in at work that do limited km's but lots of low load PTO hours. By 100k they are starting to get smokey at idle.


You mite also want to see what the max torque rating for the PTO is and how it compares with the input HP required by the pump. From fuzzy memory the pto's fitted to 75 series Landcruisers were only good for a intermintant 12HP.


Thanks for your comment. The systems I am looking at will be based upon firstfours systems. 2 complete seperate systems. 1 PTO driven. 1 crank driven.

Cheers, Adam

[kreecha]

not to mention it would wear out your centre diff and axle diff. I wouldn't be concerned about the t-case. Just run a good oil and install a hand throttle.


A hand throttle is necessary. I have looked at aftermarket belt-driven governors also.

Good oil is an absolute necessity and I expect to also adapt a centrifuge I have in the shed to combat carbon in the oil.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

I have just read this thread again, and it appears I have an answer for everything you guys offer. I'm not a smartarse, it's just that you have really good points to raise, but I have mostly considered them. Please keep them coming :-)

Cheers.

[Rick1970]

48Kw.....that's a lot of heat. You would need to seriously consider your cooling allowances for this, both oil tank capacity and aux oil cooler.


How much of this is through the PTO and engine driven systems?

[weeds]

Are you using the maxi drive hydraulic PTO?? Or something else??

[weeds]

48Kw.....that's a lot of heat. You would need to seriously consider your cooling allowances for this, both oil tank capacity and aux oil cooler.


How much of this is through the PTO and engine driven systems?

The engine drives the PTO........

[Rick1970]

I get that, but reference was made to 2 separate systems, one via the PTO and the other direct engine driven.

[kreecha]

Are you using the maxi drive hydraulic PTO?? Or something else??




The systems I am looking at will be based upon firstfours systems. 2 complete seperate systems. 1 PTO driven. 1 crank driven.

Cheers, Adam


I mentioned this before, not sure how else to answer your question Weeds.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

48Kw.....that's a lot of heat. You would need to seriously consider your cooling allowances for this, both oil tank capacity and aux oil cooler.


How much of this is through the PTO and engine driven systems?


Hi Rick,
The system comparison will be about 70:30, PTO:Crank. I will try to achieve as little load as possible from the crank as it's belt driven. I expect to achieve this through running a lower pressure through the crank driven pump.

Then the lower pressure system can be used for lighter loads.

I'm certainly aware of the heat issue. I anticipate using a cooler from an equivalent [hydraulic system] capacity excavator. This is likely to be within the ballpark of a mini excavator, and a 2.5 tonne excavator. (2 separate systems).

[weeds]

Oh got it......haven't seen first four PTO, and didn't realise there was a crank driven option

Only familiar with my PTO drive/winch

[weeds]

Oh I get it.....a hydraulic pump driven off the engine...........just caught up sorry

I would go the PTO option after experiencing a mates engine driven pump on his cruiser

[Blknight.aus]

So long as the tcase oil level is correct you'll be fine. But don't forget to take care of the gearbox oil too.

Someone is bound to suggest that you can drag more power to the pump by running highs rengine rpms in a Lowe gear. This helps prevent glazing but does increase fuel consumption and can be unforiging on the gearbox.

I'd not do it that way tho, I would mod up the power steering pump and brackets on the front a larger pu.p from there.

48kw is a lot a lot of hydraulics.. cooling, flow and filtration may become an issue as will the size of the lines your going to run off of the pump, unless your going to be running a very high pressure but relatively low flow pump which I'm not convinced the dogs for the pto Will appreciate.

[Blknight.aus]

For any of the diesel Pandora you don't need an after market governor, it has one, you just need a hand throttle to make it work... The simplest on is a screw clamp with a small hook welded to the floor near the accelerator, once you have the pto engaged hook it over the accelerator pedal and then use the screw to fine tune it once you have the load on.

[workingonit]

Had a look at firstfours site and basically could only find product references to hydraulic or electric winches. Link to crank driven would be useful.

The only reference on their site I could find to crank driven (search 'crank') was this '...The hydraulic system is driven direct by a crank-driven pump and has a flow rate of 26 litres per minute to keep the Trydent’s working as they should...'. Under south west challenge.

First Four News (http://www.firstfour.co.uk/news/)

Without further links for clarification how are we defining crank driven? Off the front where the harmonic balancer is for example? Or some mechanical drive off the transfer case input gear dogs (construing this is driven off the crank) - check you have dog teeth on your input gear as later Diso 1's for example were not cut, from my experience. Buy a replacement for about $200 or so.

The literature that came with my maxi-drive pto hydraulic pumps says '...this is a very simple and economic way to provide hydraulic power of up to 20kW (30HP) for any number of purposes...'.

[kreecha]

For any of the diesel Pandora you don't need an after market governor, it has one, you just need a hand throttle to make it work... The simplest on is a screw clamp with a small hook welded to the floor near the accelerator, once you have the pto engaged hook it over the accelerator pedal and then use the screw to fine tune it once you have the load on.


Thanks mate. Is suggest I will do something similar to your suggestion or an old push bike shifter like the cruise control I fitted to my cruiser.

Cheers.

[kreecha]

Had a look at firstfours site and basically could only find product references to hydraulic or electric winches. Link to crank driven would be useful.

The only reference on their site I could find to crank driven (search 'crank') was this '...The hydraulic system is driven direct by a crank-driven pump and has a flow rate of 26 litres per minute to keep the Trydent’s working as they should...'. Under south west challenge.

First Four News (http://www.firstfour.co.uk/news/)

Without further links for clarification how are we defining crank driven? Off the front where the harmonic balancer is for example? Or some mechanical drive off the transfer case input gear dogs (construing this is driven off the crank) - check you have dog teeth on your input gear as later Diso 1's for example were not cut, from my experience. Buy a replacement for about $200 or so.

The literature that came with my maxi-drive pto hydraulic pumps says '...this is a very simple and economic way to provide hydraulic power of up to 20kW (30HP) for any number of purposes...'.


Hi mate,
I can't get to the link on my mobile. That said, just try to google 'firstfour 300tdi pump'

Cheers.

[isuzurover]

So you are talking about this system which mounts instead of an AC compressor on a 300 tdi?
300Tdi 26cc Hydraulic Drive System for Defender with mechanical clutch. (http://www.firstfour.co.uk/item/2147183/300tdi-26cc-hydraulic-drive-system-for-defender-with-mechanical-clutch-)

[kreecha]

So you are talking about this system which mounts instead of an AC compressor on a 300 tdi?

300Tdi 26cc Hydraulic Drive System for Defender with mechanical clutch. (http://www.firstfour.co.uk/item/2147183/300tdi-26cc-hydraulic-drive-system-for-defender-with-mechanical-clutch-)


Hi Isuzu,
That's the one, but I'd use the larger pump. 33cc I think.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

Hi Isuzu,
That's the one, but I'd use the larger pump. 33cc I think.

Cheers, Adam.


36cc.

[workingonit]

Not sure - their site seems to be down, regardless if I follow the links given here or from google.

I talked to them about the pump that sits in place of the aircon...seemed OK. But I didn't want to give up aircon because I don't get European summers.

If I remember correctly they also advertised an upgrade to the power steering pump for the Tdi300 - taking it from about 1100 or 1300 to 1500 psi. Very slow and for Defenders only they said. Explaining I had a Tdi300 Disco made no difference - no sale. But I said, the mounting system looks the same - no sale!

So on to maxi drive.

Which ever way you look at it all the systems are crank driven, just by rubber bands or gears, and the systems discussed are hydraulic it seems to me if I understand correctly.

If you have aircon and want to keep it then you have to use the power steering assist which is not high output, or the maxi drive off the trans case. And if you go maxi drive with the larger pump they supply, in a Disco, then you will also have to cut into the floor support - Defenders have a bit more room I understand, so no cutting the floor.

Sorry, meant to say all the other parts you require may also prove to be rather expensive - pressure relief block, oil tank, radiator, direction controller (maybe), lines etc. And if you are thinking of putting a hydraulic winch in, cause you've got most of the system already in the log splitter, then you are looking about 65kg with steel cable (and the cable is only a small part of that weight), and a hydraulic lock (can't remember the tech term) so that the winch is braked when it has a load on but not being driven.

[Rick1970]

48kw is a lot a lot of hydraulics.. cooling, flow and filtration may become an issue as will the size of the lines your going to run off of the pump, unless your going to be running a very high pressure but relatively low flow pump which I'm not convinced the dogs for the pto Will appreciate.


My thoughts too.


Mite just be me, but I couldn't see in that site where they actually gave a max torque limit for their PTO. Its fine to say 11-115cc pump, but 115cc @ rev X 1000psi is very different to 115cc @ rev X @ 3000 psi.


In all seriousness, running 48kw from the PTO of an 18 speed roadranger takes very careful pto selection if you want it to last, exp when working with extended duty cycles. I would think they are a tad more robust than most LR offerings.

[workingonit]

What exactly are you going to inflict on the timber with this 'system'?

Hydraulic chain saw? Hydraulic circular saw for slabs? Mulcher? Rail based ram splitter? If you've already split the logs then what does the 'firewood processor' do?

Lathe:) ?

Not one of those machines with hydraulic boom, giant nippers, shreds all the branches and spits out a clean log!!

Are you picking up old fallen trees or cutting down new, or both?

I've cut down a few large trees, by NT standards, and found the back hoe on a tractor very useful for dragging, positioning, lifting and holding while dropping sections without the need for undercuts. A 'horse' might be useful.

Have you considered agrichar production?

[slug_burner]

My thoughts too.


Mite just be me, but I couldn't see in that site where they actually gave a max torque limit for their PTO. Its fine to say 11-115cc pump, but 115cc @ rev X 1000psi is very different to 115cc @ rev X @ 3000 psi.


In all seriousness, running 48kw from the PTO of an 18 speed roadranger takes very careful pto selection if you want it to last, exp when working with extended duty cycles. I would think they are a tad more robust than most LR offerings.

Do a google on red winch, all the products discussed are there including the first four pto adapter. The pumps they describe start at 26cc, I think that they may have something up to about 55cc. The pressure they develop will depend on the flow rate. Agree that pressure at high flow rate equals a lot of power, I suspect the OP knows that.

48 kW sounds like a fair bit to push out through the transfer case pto/splines a lot of heat to manage both on the engine cooling side and the hydraulics, good radiators/coolers and fans required.

[workingonit]

Sales guy for the maxi drive said with increased revs you could push closer to 60hp. Flow rates for the Cross brand pump are cross referenced to rpm, from 1000 to 3000 so Kreecha's idea of 2000 would put him mid range with some extra capacity.

[Rick1970]

If they recon 60hp is ok, well........seems a lot tho.


So what is it? Firewood? Last 'real' one I played with didn't have a splitter (was using ex timber mill scantling), but used a input conveyer loaded via a Bell log handler, to feed into a harvesting head off a feller/buncher, cut to length via PLC control over the input conveyer, then onto a output conveyer to a stockpile or truck. Basically built with mostly leftover bits and driven with a 6-354 Perkins.......interesting project.

[kreecha]

If you have aircon and want to keep it then you have to use the power steering assist which is not high output, or the maxi drive off the trans case. And if you go maxi drive with the larger pump they supply, in a Disco, then you will also have to cut into the floor support - Defenders have a bit more room I understand, so no cutting the floor.

Sorry, meant to say all the other parts you require may also prove to be rather expensive - pressure relief block, oil tank, radiator, direction controller (maybe), lines etc. And if you are thinking of putting a hydraulic winch in, cause you've got most of the system already in the log splitter, then you are looking about 65kg with steel cable (and the cable is only a small part of that weight), and a hydraulic lock (can't remember the tech term) so that the winch is braked when it has a load on but not being driven.

Hi,
I would no want to keep the AC. I am dreaming of building one of these 3000/4000 Bar Saw Firewood Processors (http://www.bellsmachining.com/30004000-series/) (no loading deck) on a D1 chassis. Also means I do not have to worry about cutting the floor. There won't be a floor :D Or a body...

I agree all the other parts will be expensive. Plus maintenance.
Some parts I can make to reduce labour; hoses, tanks fabrication etc.
Some parts I have to buy; hydraulics (valves, valve block, PRV, Gg's, motors, rams etc), Chain.

Oh and you refer to weight. I had considered weight to be an issue, but loading a d1 chassis with 800kg of hydraulics and steel... Then a tonne of tree... I will make concessions :)

I'm pretty sure the hydraulic winch needs a closed centre spool to remain locked when not functioning.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

My thoughts too.


Mite just be me, but I couldn't see in that site where they actually gave a max torque limit for their PTO. Its fine to say 11-115cc pump, but 115cc @ rev X 1000psi is very different to 115cc @ rev X @ 3000 psi.


I agree. I have to continue my study to find a suitable setup.



In all seriousness, running 48kw from the PTO of an 18 speed roadranger takes very careful pto selection if you want it to last, exp when working with extended duty cycles. I would think they are a tad more robust than most LR offerings.

Once again; I agree. To lessen your concern I aim to run 16kw off the front of the crank via a toothed belt to one pump, and 32kw through the t/case. That being said I have to be wary of many differing factors such as;
-over loading,
-oil condition,
-oil temperature,
-oil volume,
-additional t/case wear,
-engine glazing.

There is much more I must also be wary off, and I am happy to further explain if you desire however that is outside the scope of my initial query.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

What exactly are you going to inflict on the timber with this 'system'?

Hydraulic chain saw? Hydraulic circular saw for slabs? Mulcher? Rail based ram splitter? If you've already split the logs then what does the 'firewood processor' do?

Lathe:) ?

Not one of those machines with hydraulic boom, giant nippers, shreds all the branches and spits out a clean log!!

Are you picking up old fallen trees or cutting down new, or both?

I've cut down a few large trees, by NT standards, and found the back hoe on a tractor very useful for dragging, positioning, lifting and holding while dropping sections without the need for undercuts. A 'horse' might be useful.

Have you considered agrichar production?

I hope the other link I posted previously assists with detailing what I want to achieve. That said....
I also want to include 2 hydraulic winches, a mulched, hydraulic steering, and a stump grinder.

:)

I will be sustainably felling forests designed for fuelwood production.

I have never heard of agrichar production. Googling.

Cheers :)

[kreecha]

48 kW sounds like a fair bit to push out through the transfer case pto/splines a lot of heat to manage both on the engine cooling side and the hydraulics, good radiators/coolers and fans required.

Hi Slug,
Heat is a concern.

Should be interesting. I've done a lot of research in the last 12mths regarding this subject, and it should be interesting to see how much more study I can do prior to finding a problem that is unmanageable.

Managing heat is (relatively) easy to conquer.
LT230 PTO drives not designed for outputting as much power as I require is a show-stopper.Luckily I haven't arrived there yet :)

Cheer's Adam.

[kreecha]

Sales guy for the maxi drive said with increased revs you could push closer to 60hp. Flow rates for the Cross brand pump are cross referenced to rpm, from 1000 to 3000 so Kreecha's idea of 2000 would put him mid range with some extra capacity.

I may yet have to go with the MaxiDrive unit. After all it can be sourced locally.

Cheers.

[kreecha]

If they recon 60hp is ok, well........seems a lot tho.


So what is it? Firewood? Last 'real' one I played with didn't have a splitter (was using ex timber mill scantling), but used a input conveyer loaded via a Bell log handler, to feed into a harvesting head off a feller/buncher, cut to length via PLC control over the input conveyer, then onto a output conveyer to a stockpile or truck. Basically built with mostly leftover bits and driven with a 6-354 Perkins.......interesting project.

PLC's are abit above my desire of a full-mechanical-fluid power system.
However; I do realise the benefit of, and understand the simplicity of, wiring in a few limit switches to provide some and/or sequences.

I did google a perkins 6-354... I couldn't find an engine capacity. I could find power and torque though and they were almost identical to a 300TDI.

Thanks Rick for looking in.

[Rick1970]

Hi,



I'm pretty sure the hydraulic winch needs a closed centre spool to remain locked when not functioning.

Cheers, Adam.


Closed centre spool valve is normally used in a system where no oil flow is desired through the valve in the neutral position, usually a closed circuit system using a load sensed/ pressure compensated piston pump or accumulator system.


Most, but not all, hydraulic winches tend to use some sort load holding (overcentre) valve on the motors work ports to stop the motor when there is no oil flow. With an open circuit system (common gear/vane pump), theory says use a motor spool ( both valve work ports open to tank when in neutral), but in most cases a standard cylinder spool ( both work ports closed in neutral) works ok.

[Rick1970]

Consider your heat carefully if your working in high ambient temps. Its generally accepted that the tank should be 3 times the oil flow (so 100l/min oil flow = 300L tank) which is usually quite hard to achieve in a mobile system. 1:1 should be workable if everything is sized to minimize unnecessary heat.


A lot of oil cooler manufactures won't warrant there coolers when used in curcuits containing hydraulic cylinders (spike pressures in return lines when retracting cylinders). Check valves across the cooler ports can sometimes be of help with this.

[Rick1970]

I did google a perkins 6-354... I couldn't find an engine capacity. I could find power and torque though and they were almost identical to a 300TDI.

Thanks Rick for looking in.


6 cyl....354c.i. About 110-120hp from memory. Think the one used came from an old International truck?

[Blknight.aus]

You are going to be a lot better off with a dedicated power pack...

Just so happens I have a small. 3 pot diesel with a set of pumps ha gong off of it that came out of a non Insignificant ride on mower.

Yours if you can arrange pick up.. if it works out a small donation would be appreciated.

What your trying to do sounds like it's.going to get needlessly complicated

[Rick1970]

+1........It would be at least worth looking into.


Guessing 1 or 2 pumps would be for hydrostatic drive, but would probably be easy enough to change for something more suitable.


Another option is a tractor...and drive pumps of the PTO. Step up boxes are available to take the 540rpm PTO up to a more suitable speed.