Exhaust in the coolant

[TheTree]

Had my coolant analysed this morning and sure enough it has exhaust gases in it :(

Spoke to the guy at TRS and he reckons it's 99% likely it's a cracked block

He quoted about $4K for a good reconditioned long motor so I think that is the way I will go. Not a lot more than a top end overhaul once I add it up!

Steve

[Striker]

Cracked block? Geez.
$4k isn't too extravagant for a new long motor, though, unless it wasn't done by a reputable workshop.

--Striker.

[mtb_gary]

Steve

A quick diagnosis for split block. I would have thought head gasket prior to split block. Either way not good news!

Gary

[TheTree]

Steve

A quick diagnosis for split block. I would have thought head gasket prior to split block. Either way not good news!

Gary

Gary

The guy from Triumph Rover Spares said it's 99% likely to be a cracked block rather than just a head gasket.

When I add up the cost of doing a top end overhaul, the price of a reconditioned motor looks damn good!

Plus i get a motor which has had the bottom end done as well and it's a lot less work to swap a motor than to overhaul heads, cam, timing chain etc

Steve

[peter51]

dont just listen to their opinion. You can work it out for yourself.
Remove all the plugs. See if any pistons are steam cleaned. You will find one which is nice and clean on the top compared to the others. If it is 1,7 or 2 and 8 then it is more likely head gasket. If it is the inners on either bank then you have a crack.

The engine can be removed very quickly. Definitely DIY. Overhaul is simple DIY. If it has not been overheated then simple cheap job.

There is no water gallery adjacent to 3,5, 4,6 so any combustion gases must be travelling between the liner and the block and then through the crack into the water jacket. The greater probability in your case is head gasket.

PM me if you need more info.

[davidsonsm]

Bloody hell mate. You're not having much luck of late. Feel your pain.

[peter51]

Further to my post - when you research the majority of cases where a p38 owner had a cracked block, no combustion gases were ever detected in the cooling system. The main symptom was loss of coolant, misfiring, and overheating.
I had a cracked block in my first p38 and I tested and retested with my CO2 detector and I never got a positive. Number 4 was steamed cleaned and I was always losing coolant.

A definitive method is to do a leak down check to see if the cooling system becomes pressurised – either by watching for bubbles etc in the overflow bottle, or coolant cascading out of the overflow bottle - or better still fit a temporary cooling system pressure gauge if you have one.
This is the equivalent of a block pressure check if there are no head gasket or valve issues that would affect the leak down.

If you decide it is headgasket you are still better to pull the engine. Dont do the gaskets with the engine in - it will take you twice as long and a lot of fiddly mucking around.
I can remove my p38 engine in 3.5 hours no probs. Anyone can do it. It is an easy engine to work on BTW.

[garybrook]

Hi Steve,

and I reckon I've got problems. Sorry to hear of your bad notice. Can you tell me how much TRS charges for testing the gas in the coolant as you did? The reason why I ask is that I was looking about buying a kit at one of the trade suppliers in Canberra. I costs about $140 and it has several tests, but I don't yet know how many I get out of it. I'll ask that when I speak with them next week.

I also understand that several radiator businesses sell that same service so I'll ask their price. Eventually I'll try a test, especially if it gives early advice before a head gasket fails at the back of the block/heads. I thought I may have a problem when my car when the heater matrix leaked - not the o-rings - and considered it could be the head gasket

When I worked it through I thought it was unlikely as the hoses, pressure cap and even the new o-rings were holding the systems pressure, until the heater core broke. At this time it seems to me that the main reason could have been that the reinstalling of the two o-rings either damaged or stressed the core/matrix, which was then nearly 15 years old. I'll have a look when I get it out.

If you intend to rebuild your or another block, are TRS pressure testing the bare block, with or without liners? I know it's a bit of a fiddle but I seem to have read that someone has done this in Australia, as well as others in the UK and the USA.

Lastly, Steve I should say that I admired your work on your earlier and later cars. If I did that much done in that time I'd consider I may be looking for a psych assessment - sort of O/C if you understand what I'm saying - but I'm obviously rather lazy in comparison. Cheers,

Gary (another one)

[Disco Muppet]

X2 on not trusting them...
As per the test mentioned above RE HG vs Cracked block. See which of your pistons has had a trip to the cleaners...

[TheTree]

dont just listen to their opinion. You can work it out for yourself.
Remove all the plugs. See if any pistons are steam cleaned. You will find one which is nice and clean on the top compared to the others. If it is 1,7 or 2 and 8 then it is more likely head gasket. If it is the inners on either bank then you have a crack.

The engine can be removed very quickly. Definitely DIY. Overhaul is simple DIY. If it has not been overheated then simple cheap job.

There is no water gallery adjacent to 3,5, 4,6 so any combustion gases must be travelling between the liner and the block and then through the crack into the water jacket. The greater probability in your case is head gasket.

PM me if you need more info.

Thanks Pete I intend to do more tests before I dive into anything !

Steve

[TheTree]

Further to my post - when you research the majority of cases where a p38 owner had a cracked block, no combustion gases were ever detected in the cooling system. The main symptom was loss of coolant, misfiring, and overheating.
I had a cracked block in my first p38 and I tested and retested with my CO2 detector and I never got a positive. Number 4 was steamed cleaned and I was always losing coolant.

A definitive method is to do a leak down check to see if the cooling system becomes pressurised – either by watching for bubbles etc in the overflow bottle, or coolant cascading out of the overflow bottle - or better still fit a temporary cooling system pressure gauge if you have one.
This is the equivalent of a block pressure check if there are no head gasket or valve issues that would affect the leak down.

If you decide it is headgasket you are still better to pull the engine. Dont do the gaskets with the engine in - it will take you twice as long and a lot of fiddly mucking around.
I can remove my p38 engine in 3.5 hours no probs. Anyone can do it. It is an easy engine to work on BTW.

Hi Mate

I can't keep coolant in the vehicle, on a 30 min drive I lose between 500ml and a Litre :(

The expansion tank and cap have both been replaced so I came to the conclusion it might be exhaust gas in the coolant so I went to have it tested

The car also blows way too much steam once it is hot and is switched off for a while

Steve

[TheTree]

Hi Steve,

and I reckon I've got problems. Sorry to hear of your bad notice. Can you tell me how much TRS charges for testing the gas in the coolant as you did? The reason why I ask is that I was looking about buying a kit at one of the trade suppliers in Canberra. I costs about $140 and it has several tests, but I don't yet know how many I get out of it. I'll ask that when I speak with them next week.

I also understand that several radiator businesses sell that same service so I'll ask their price. Eventually I'll try a test, especially if it gives early advice before a head gasket fails at the back of the block/heads. I thought I may have a problem when my car when the heater matrix leaked - not the o-rings - and considered it could be the head gasket

When I worked it through I thought it was unlikely as the hoses, pressure cap and even the new o-rings were holding the systems pressure, until the heater core broke. At this time it seems to me that the main reason could have been that the reinstalling of the two o-rings either damaged or stressed the core/matrix, which was then nearly 15 years old. I'll have a look when I get it out.

If you intend to rebuild your or another block, are TRS pressure testing the bare block, with or without liners? I know it's a bit of a fiddle but I seem to have read that someone has done this in Australia, as well as others in the UK and the USA.

Lastly, Steve I should say that I admired your work on your earlier and later cars. If I did that much done in that time I'd consider I may be looking for a psych assessment - sort of O/C if you understand what I'm saying - but I'm obviously rather lazy in comparison. Cheers,

Gary (another one)

Hi Mate

Thanks for your kind comments .. I am feeling a little pain though I always expected that the motor would need an overhaul eventually though not as quickly as this !

I took the car to a local garage and they did the test for $20.00, he was going to do a pressure test as well but the leakage test was instant (he said he had never seen one change colour instantly like mine did) so we didn't bother with the pressure test.

TRS says their reco long engines have been fully tested and rebuilt with new bearings, billet cam etc. I intend to ask a lot more questions before I take the plunge!

Steve

[TheTree]

Hi mate

No LPG on this one yet.

Yes there is pressure if I run the car for a few minutes and it holds some pressure overnight now, after the new genuine cap was fitted.

I got it tested because I lose between 500ml and 1 litre of coolant in about a 30 min drive

Plugs are coming out tomorrow and a compression test and leakdown test is in order!

Steve

[TheTree]

X2 on not trusting them...
As per the test mentioned above RE HG vs Cracked block. See which of your pistons has had a trip to the cleaners...

Thanks mate, i recognise that "muppet" handle :p

Steve

[TheTree]

I intend to do more testing, but if the recon motors are indeed reliable then that may still be my best option.

My current engine definitely suffers from shopping trolley syndrome, a peek into the oil filler shows a fair amount of deposits.

Also I am sure the cam is probably worn so as well as a head gasket I would be looking at getting the heads done, replacing the cam, rockers, followers etc and the timing chain and gears.

And then I still have the original bottom end as well

So by the time I add all that up it starts to approach 3K without the hours I will need to spend to do the overhaul.

So a recond engine looks fairly attractive when all is taken into consideration

Steve

[TheTree]

Thanks mate, there is no tapping or knocking when up to temp except for a bit of lifter rattle

Thanks for the tip on TRS, I was going to ask that question !

Steve

[TheTree]

I also have a borescope camera which I will use as well tomorrow

Steve

[peter51]

For a leak like that I reckon it is head gasket. Anyway you will know soon enough. When you pull the plugs the first part of the puzzle will be revealed.

however - Assume no3 piston is steam cleaned. Its compression should be lower. The others should be about 150 for a low compression engine like yours. Then start the leakdown there. With overflow bottle topped off and cap off you should see leakage.

First thing you can try is block sealer. It really works but is temporary and can suddenly leave you stranded. I drove my 1996 p38 for a year like that, which gave me time to gather my thoughts and a spare block etc. I saw no deposits in the radiator etc.

You can fit a single top hat liner and keep you original block. Of course you dont do that unless the block is thoroughly pressure tested by a quality engine shop.
The beauty of that is you can refit all your current parts, and replace all the seals etc.
If it is head gasket and the heads are skimmed you need to carefully do the lifter preloads. You need to ask the engine shop how they intend to do that having forearmed yourself with the correct technique via AULRO. Be careful here otherwise you will end up with a ticking engine.

Overall they are still an amazing vehicle - so stick with it.

[TheTree]

For a leak like that I reckon it is head gasket. Anyway you will know soon enough. When you pull the plugs the first part of the puzzle will be revealed.

however - Assume no3 piston is steam cleaned. Its compression should be lower. The others should be about 150 for a low compression engine like yours. Then start the leakdown there. With overflow bottle topped off and cap off you should see leakage.

First thing you can try is block sealer. It really works but is temporary and can suddenly leave you stranded. I drove my 1996 p38 for a year like that, which gave me time to gather my thoughts and a spare block etc. I saw no deposits in the radiator etc.

You can fit a single top hat liner and keep you original block. Of course you dont do that unless the block is thoroughly pressure tested by a quality engine shop.
The beauty of that is you can refit all your current parts, and replace all the seals etc.
If it is head gasket and the heads are skimmed you need to carefully do the lifter preloads. You need to ask the engine shop how they intend to do that having forearmed yourself with the correct technique via AULRO. Be careful here otherwise you will end up with a ticking engine.

Overall they are still an amazing vehicle - so stick with it.

Thanks Pete

We shall see how it plays out, my current thinking is to send the heads out to a pro to get them done, 'Headwerk" in West Gosford has been recommended, then I will do the rest of the work myself with my mechanic mate

Given the engine has had regular service and oil changes, chances are the bottom end is in pretty good shape

So heads, cam, followers, rockers, pushrods and timing chain are the obvious things to do once the heads are off. Not sure about the timing gears they should probably be ok though.

Steve

[peter51]

OK good idea. I have a lot more info on the pitfalls and what to look out for etc. I can send you a link to my file. The Pdf and pictures form too large a file to post 4.7MB It gives a blow by blow description of how to get the engine in and out easily plus lots of other stuff to look out for. My engine is a 59D later 4.6 - so some of it wont be relevant. Have a look at some of my other posts. Ive done four engines removals so far!! It keeps me out of the kitchen.

When u get your block, check it is flat to within .002 inch. Same with the heads when you get them back. Your heads should not be surfaced more than 5 thou really. See how you go.

watch out for poor parts such as Britpart and you should rebuild the rockers if you already have noise. I spent hours trying to get rid of noise on a teardown only to find it was a rocker set and not lifters. I used Bearmach and they are good so far with no loss of oil pressure - top end components control oil pressure the most in an open system.
Enjoy.

[Hoges]

On that note I bought a "matched" set of solid steel rockers and lifters plus a shim kit from turner engineering in the UK. Landed cost was less than 16 misc. bits out of a box from local suppliers. The chain wheels are relatively cheap in the scheme of things and it's worth replacing them along with a new chain. chains come in two forms...am not being crude here. There is the stiff version and the floppy variety...accepted technical terms. Get the stiff version.
I was frankly disappointed with the machining done by a long established, and generally well regarded shop here in Woolloongabba... there was significant variation in height of the top of the valve stems when I ran a straight edge along them, necessitating the use of shims under the rocker posts to obtain the correct pre-load range
.
I still get a little valve noise when it's cold but once it's warm and has now run in after 6,000km it's very quiet when at operating temp. It's not a sophisticated roller rocker marvel although the impulse once you get started on the rebuild is to get this and that...and the $$$$$ start mounting up quicker than Joe Hockey's budget deficit...the result is the same... you have to make compromises! (this is not a political announcement :p)

I recently switched to Penrite 15W-40 "Every Day"premium mineral oil rather than semi synthetics. The engine is noticeably quieter as a result.

The machine shop referred to above also strongly recommended NO valve stem seals on the exhaust valves, in the interests of reducing carbon build-up... I accepted their advice and there has been no noticeable increase in oil consumption between changes. It's still about 500-600ml between changes at 10k km intervals. Also, it doesn't blow smoke on over run...e.g heavy compression braking coming down the steep sections of the range from Toowoomba.
Cheers

[TheTree]

Hoges

I was just reading your head gasket thread, thanks for the extra info :D

I was thinking adjustable pushrods may be the way to go rather than shims.

All the fancy options soon add up that's for sure !

The only things I am considering are a bit of mild port shaping and possibly the Crow "highway" cam.

How about the oil pump, worth looking at while the donk is apart?

Steve

[Hoges]

My engine only had about 135K on it when I did the gaskets etc and the oil pressure was ok so I didn't replace it. I was very surprised at how the cam had deteriorated but that may have been due to poor maintenance by POs (previous owners:angel:)

I was stuck for time but I would seriously consider adjustable push rods (there's a reference somewhere here about bespoke push rods from the USA ... surprisingly cheap). That way you can get the whole thing "exact".
I also thought about a Piper or whatever cam to shift the torque band down about 300 rpm. You need to be quite careful about lift or you may start running into interference problems on these heads. There are extended excerpts from Des Hammill's classic (out of print) book on Rover V8 engines to be found on google books. The important bits about cams etc are available to read!
Adjustable push rods are larger in diameter and IIRC require a 5/8" clearance so drilling out the clearance holes for standard push rods is probably best done in the machine shop at the time the heads are done..

[davidsonsm]

All the above comments. Very insightful. Where to draw the line hey. Does the TRS small block come decked to suit quench volume - that was something highly recommended me, but had to calculated based on choice of gasket, and head skimming and bowl volume of piston. And does it have HC pistons fitted?

I thought new blocks were "out of print". So are they supplying refurbed second hand blocks?

[davidsonsm]

I managed to get a new block last year. But it was in somebody's storage. Not off the shelf as an orderable item.

[bee utey]

TRS don't do the job, they farm it out to an engine shop around the corner that comes highly recommended by an independent source. The problem is that the blocks are already cracked and then even the top hat liners will move a bit. The only thing that stops the liners moving is the clamping force of the head and gasket. Once the gasket relaxes, failure is not far behind. I had precisely that problem in a customers RRC with one of their 4.6 short motors last year. Not hard to fit another gasket though and I've done the ARP studs up a bit tighter than before. All good so far.

[bee utey]

They basically do the best they can with what TRS supplies to them. I suspect TRS mainly gets 4.6 engines done with already cracked blocks. They're way too common from what I've seen of the wretched things. When I saw some new short engines in their shop a few years ago they didn't think it was worth top hatting them in advance.

It is why you wouldn't get a changeover engine if your engine only had a loose liner without a crack (as I recently observed on a 200K old P38). Better the devil you know.

[TheTree]

I am still hoping it's a head gasket and not a cracked block, cracked head or slipped liner :eek:

Tomorrows tests should provide more pointers

Oh and I have been well warned off the TRS reco motors now :wasntme:
Steve

[TheTree]

Well I was hoping in vain :(

Number 3 spark plug looked very odd and a look into the cylinder with a borescope camera confirmed that there was coolant present. :censored:

So I am going to use some Rislone block sealant for now and see if that fixes it and gives me time to work out my next step. Which long motor to get is the question now.

Steve

[Hoges]

Sorry...I'm a bit confused... how does coolant in pot#3 necessarily stem from a cracked block.... could there not be a blow out in the head gasket between pots 1&3 allowing coolant to be drawn into the cylinder? Just asking...

[Range01]

Hi Peter51, I note your comment - head skimmed you need to carefully do the lifter preload. In my case I also had the block machine with stepped sleeves. Once it warms up I have a ticking engine so does that mean I have to much preload causing the issue. I was thinking it not enough preload. Cheers.

[peter51]

yes it is highly probable. if you have replaced the rockers or had no noise prior to the skim then it is definitely the source in my opinion. Others may have an alternate opinion. Shimming to the correct preload sorted mine after a lot of mucking around because initially I thought incorrectly that the hydraulic lifters would automatically adjust, but I put in a new cam and push rods which caused noise on the side that had previously had the head work. There was way too much preload on one cylinder and the valve work was appalling with several valve tips lower than the others.
Just go to the bearing shop and get brass shim. Goto RPI ENGINEERING for the info on adjustment but measure using the post on AULRO by Hoges and me - search at technical chatter, adjustable push rods roller rockers.
You make the shims by clamping them between 2 thin plates of alloy. Then dip a rocker pedestal in ink and stamp it on a piece of paper. Overlay that template onto the sandwiched shims to mark out the shape. Drill either end of the oval with an appropriate drill slow speed with cutting oil Take out the rest with a dremel metal cutting tip. - again with lubrication and slow speed
It takes about 30minutes and the shims have no burrs.
Make sure you use a torque wrench for the rocker pedestals - they crack easily and you will have very little oil pressure - I did it when I incorrectly set the torque wrench without glasses.
It is an easy DIY for the Gems engine but a real PITA for the Thor if the drivers side rockers need to come out.
Enjoy.

[peter51]

Regarding the coolant in no3. It doesnt have to be a slipped lined as the differential pressure between the coolant jacket (9psi on the p38) and the cylinder on intake stroke will draw coolant in from the gap between the liner and block. However liners do slip down the bore as well as p76 said.
It also happens on other cars by the way and is not isolated to the Landrover.

However other cars are just "other cars". They are not special.

[peter51]

The Tree said he has no noise.
Here is a landrover block being pressure tested The leak is clearly visible with the aid of a little bit of detergent.The liner is still in its correct position.
The leak can occur without a slipping liner.
Notice the steam cleaned piston.

[bee utey]

I've come across quite a number of LRV8 engines with block/liner issues. All the ones that leaked coolant didn't knock. The cracks would have distorted the block enough to leak but not to rattle the liners. The two blocks I've met that had knocking liners didn't leak any coolant therefore probably weren't cracked.

[TheTree]

Well the Rislone copper block sealant seems to have done the business for now, no more clouds of steam coming out of the exhaust!

Steve

[mtb_gary]

Good to know Steve, well done and no doubt quite a relief!

Gary

[TheTree]

Yes mate definitely and I have sourced a replacement engine :p

Steve

[davidsonsm]

Do tell. Please. The replacement engine story that is.

[TheTree]

I have agreed to buy the engine from the P38 Rupert Prior is wrecking.:cool:

It has been rebuilt and has an excellent service history, I will be able to pick it up in a couple of weeks

Steve

[98se40]

Ive had a bit to do with Rupert and his work, and theres not much he doesnt know.
Honest and fair too and a decent chap........for a pom :p

[davidsonsm]

Ive had a bit to do with Rupert and his work, and theres not much he doesnt know.
Honest and fair too and a decent chap........for a pom :p


There are some decent POMS out there. You've just got to know where to look.