short fueling?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The original underneath twins have been serviced, all valves tested and replaced as required,
the new boot space triple tank (2nd hand from Auto LPG GAS Tank G84MAN Reconditioned Scuba Tank NEW Electric Solenoid | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Auto-LPG-Gas-Tank-G84MAN-Reconditioned-Scuba-tank-New-Electric-Solenoid-/321552443718?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ade04e946)) are advertised as fully serviced.
According to my installer the twins are filled first and used last.
First fill attempt went ok,, over 100 litres,( I stopped due to slowness of fill)
second went to 140, (which, I think, is impossible) but still hadnt clunked off, but as the last 30 litres was so slow its hard to tell when overfilling starts---
3rd fill clunked off at 24L,,,, pulled the trigger again, clunk.
4th fill again 24L.

It makes it a bit difficult to work out towing range when I cant tell if the tanks are full or not,,
and theres no range at all with a 24l fill:angel:
and no, these oil containers are just returns from its last service:lol2:

[bee utey]

In short, your installation is illegal until you fix the filling situation.

It's not really possible to fill 3 tanks reliably off the same filler. Even 2 tanks struggle unless they've been fitted with the newest design 10mm ID filler hoses and filler valve. The 80% fill level valves (AFLs) are designed to shut off at a flow rate that can't be easily achieved with too many hanging off one filler. The total volume of LPG in your 3 tanks should be in the order of 130 litres. The actual volume is more like 160 litres. So any amount over 130 means that one or more tanks is being overfilled, and you can't tell which one. If you leave the vehicle in the full sun after over filling (think accident scene, traffic jam etc) one of the tanks will vent LPG at some time.

As for the low fill amounts, you will have to look at the contents gauges to work out which tanks are overfull and which ones are empty. You can usually see the LH underneath tank gauge with a mirror and the G84M should be no problem.

Oh, and under current rules your inside tank needs a protective cover, make sure your LPG fitter has the current rules and has actually read AND understood them.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

tank cover on its way;)

as for the rest:confused:
The gentleman I was dealing with in Toowoomba also said he would fill it off the original inlet,,

I suppose they could both be wrong

link to regs?:angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Where do you recommend the 2nd inlet?
would changing the first inlet hose to the bigger size alleviate the problem?

[bee utey]

Unfortunately the regs are copyright protected and subject to licence fees so I can't give you a copy. They are not meant for the general public to use.

There's no specific part of the regulation that forbids filling multiple tanks off one filler. The onus is on the installer to not only design the installation correctly THEN test it to be certain that it fills correctly. Ford factory multiple tanks for example are designed with 12mm filler hoses/pipes to ensure the flow rate is high enough to trigger the twin tanks AFLs reliably. In your case you will undoubtedly have a filler not designed to work with what your fitter attempted. I suggest you talk to your fitter and possibly fit a second filler for the G84M low in the LH rear fender so you can at least fill it safely. You could post up pics of the filler and plumbing you already have, then I might be able to help. (or send me a PM with your email/phone number)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Thanks for the advice:D
Have you put a filler there with the rear ULP tank in that area?

[bee utey]

Thanks for the advice:D
Have you put a filler there with the rear ULP tank in that area?
No, I've once or twice fitted low mount fillers on the left hand side. There may be space around the RHS but it depends entirely on what the ULP tank looks like. There are many different brands so without looking it's all guesswork.

[harry]

from your picture it looks as if the tanks are high on the left, but that may be an optical illusion.
but if so, you will always have a problem getting it all in,
I would be looking at the installation to see that the tanks furtherest from the fill port are plumbed so that the air gap(for want of a better word-?) is able to vent to allow the liquid to fill the space, if it (the liquid)cant displace the vapour, it will always shut off on fill pressure and that gas space will be just that, gas, not liquid, LPG,which is pretty useless when it comes to wanting range out of a gas car.

[bee utey]

from your picture it looks as if the tanks are high on the left, but that may be an optical illusion.
but if so, you will always have a problem getting it all in,
I would be looking at the installation to see that the tanks furtherest from the fill port are plumbed so that the air gap(for want of a better word-?) is able to vent to allow the liquid to fill the space, if it (the liquid)cant displace the vapour, it will always shut off on fill pressure and that gas space will be just that, gas, not liquid, LPG,which is pretty useless when it comes to wanting range out of a gas car.

The thing in the picture is one tank made from three cylinders welded together during manufacture with large interconnecting passages and therefore it has one valve set. No vapour is ever vented from a vehicle's LPG tank during filling. The vapour is compressed into the 20% of vapour space above the liquid level by the force of the pump. It doesn't matter where the vapour space is in the tank, as the interconnecting pipes are quite large. The bigger issue with this particular tank is that the accuracy of filling is controlled by a float valve that lives in the right hand rear corner of the tank. It means that filling accuracy can't be guaranteed unless the tank is absolutely level and the flow rate into the AFL valve is sufficient to cause it to shut off at 80%.

[harry]

I don't think I explained what I meant very well,
thanks bee uty,
what I meant was that the liquid has to displace the vapour to get a full tank, if the venting system in the tank cluster isn't able to let the liquid settle and purge the vapour out of the space, (the liquid being heavier than vapour), you will get short filling. i didn't mean that anything was vented to atmosphere.

[bee utey]

I don't think I explained what I meant very well,
thanks bee uty,
what I meant was that the liquid has to displace the vapour to get a full tank, if the venting system in the tank cluster isn't able to let the liquid settle and purge the vapour out of the space, (the liquid being heavier than vapour), you will get short filling. i didn't mean that anything was vented to atmosphere.
OK I think I get what you wrote but the tank's interconnector tubes are quite large enough to allow the liquid and the vapour to disperse through all 3 cylinders at normal operating angles. There are 1" tube connectors at the top right, 2" in the middle (both sides) and 1" at the bottom left of the cylinders to allow quick equalisation. Also the filling flow rate is somewhat reduced on these things to allow for that. The float valve being at the slightly lower (right hand) end of the tank will have a far bigger effect on filling than any venting issue.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

do tank fuel level gauges need power to work?

[Collins]

do tank fuel level gauges need power to work?

Yes

[Collins]

As a matter of interest, the dispensing pump pressure is adequate to re-compress the gas vapour back into liquid form.
You will most probably experience slower fill rates when filling from an underground LPG tank than an above ground tank, more so in hotter weather conditions.
To the best of my knowledge most, if not all States & Territories have adopted the following Standard as regulation: AS/NZS 1425: LP Gas fuel systems for vehicle engines.

[bee utey]

As a matter of interest, the dispensing pump pressure is adequate to re-compress the gas vapour back into liquid form.
Not quite. There is a heat exchange process that takes place when liquefying LPG from vapour and it's not instantaneous. Put your hand on a recently filled tank and it will be quite warm to the touch from the rapidly compressed vapour. When the temperature drops the vapour returns to liquid. A tank rapidly filled from near empty to 90+% will have so much pressure in it that most filling pumps will slow right down and stop.


To the best of my knowledge most, if not all States & Territories have adopted the following Standard as regulation: AS/NZS 1425: LP Gas fuel systems for vehicle engines.
This is the copyright protected standard that I mentioned earlier. It costs some $200 for a legit copy. All LPG fitters should have the latest copy (from 2013) available for reference.


Yes

No. The tank level gauge (sender unit) shows the level by mechanical means and a simple magnetic coupling. The dash gauge needs power.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Please bear with me--:(:(

hmm, my thoughts--
The G84 tank reads full, but the LED gauge lights show only two green lights, so-
as far as i can tell the G84 tank is not being used,, or, the gauge that controls the swapover to ULP is connected to the second underlung tank. (which makes sense:angel:)
so with two(3?)hydostatic valves in play,, ( I'm assuming the valve just shuts down whichever tank is empty first??)
how does it pick which one to use first?
or more importantly,
use last.

[bee utey]

Please bear with me--:(:(

hmm, my thoughts--
The G84 tank reads full, but the LED gauge lights show only two green lights, so-
as far as i can tell the G84 tank is not being used,, or, the gauge that controls the swapover to ULP is connected to the second underlung tank. (which makes sense:angel:)
The LPG gauge will be connected to whatever sender unit/s the LPG fitter connected it to. I suspect he just left it connected to the existing underslung tank/s.


so with two(3?)hydostatic valves in play,, ( I'm assuming the valve just shuts down whichever tank is empty first??)
how does it pick which one to use first?
or more importantly,
use last.
There could be a number of hydrostatic valves down there somewhere but the important bit is the non return valves of which there should be three, one for each tank upstream of the one required hydrostatic (line relief) valve. These non return valves aren't active elements, they are just dumb spring loaded one way valves. They can't "pick" anything. Typically, hydrostatic valves are made in one unit with two non return valves. Separate non return valves are available too.

So the tank/s that drain first will be the hottest, ie at the highest pressure. In summer this usually means the one nearest the exhaust, then the one on the other side, then lastly the one in the air conditioned cabin. In winter the one inside will usually drain first due to cabin heating. Obviously the drain rates will always depend on the temperature of the LPG in each tank at any given moment.

If you had a separate filler for the G84 tank you would legally be allowed to have a manual switch (connected before the electric solenoids) to drain it separately so you would know exactly where you were up to. This is my preferred way of dealing with multiple tanks. Either a "reserve" switch for a smaller auxiliary tank or a two way switch to choose between two tank sets.

http://www.amrgas.com/images/products/hydrostatic_tee_valves_1.jpg

http://www.amrgas.com/p_hydrostatic_tee_valves.html

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yep,, a manual switch is the only way to ensure the underslung tanks with the gauge drains last,,

and they have fitted a second filling point for the G84.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The BSL strikes again,, :censored:
Hardware update first-- A second intake was fitted for the new triple tank, it was attached to the Tow hitch frame and the filling seems to work much better:D
Now,,,,,,
After dumping the van at Genoa rest area we started off to Mallacoota,after ten minutes the car stalled around a bend,, fired up after a bit then stopped, Di said she could hear a funny noise and then said,--"Dumm De Dum Dum"-- I can smell gas!:eek::eek::eek:
Long story short it appears a high pressure line has broken. In Mallacoota. A long way from anywhere.:censored:
RACQ/V will tow everything to Bairnsdale,, apparently. Still dont know who the repairer is.
I wonder what a Colorado is worth?

[incisor]

Bt50 would be more reliable than both

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yea, maybe. but I've driven lots of BT50's and hated them all,, some of the older models had a turbo rush like an RM 125:eek:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Just been on the phone with the Mallacoota RACV towie/mechanic/secretary and he said that even with the dash switch on PULP the car still leaks from the high pressure line. I dont think thats supposed to happen,, but I cant physically get to one of the tanks taps to turn it off,, it may have been just what was left in the line---:question:.
I was thinking that if all the tank valves were shut i should be able to drive it on PULP,, but it seems no--
nothing like a two hundred kay tow truck ride to make you thirsty I suppose:angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It was a small flexible hose in the engine bay that split, an easy fix.
But it hasnt fixed the stalling problem,,
also---
Coming into Bega was the first time we have run the LPG tanks dry,,
and a strange noise happened,, like a big vacuum cleaner suction type noise, totally rev dependant, no in-car alarm,, just this strange hollow-sucking sound.:confused:
when I pushed the change-over switch the noise stopped.

[Cannon]

That noise is normal when the gas is about to run out.

Still freaks me out sometimes until I realise.:)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

After a bit more research, it appears that i need to run a dedicated earth wire from all three tank solenoids and the LPG fuel gauge back to the battery. It does makes sense,, and if that doesnt fix the stalling its time for a new LPG computer. :(

[Pedro_The_Swift]

3 more days of research and Bee utey wins the prize. Its a worn out converter/regulator.
The new one from Sprintgas will be here Wednesday.:cool:

Luckily enough we quite like the Bairnsdale area:D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The new one is in and for the first time in 4 years the car starts when hot, like its starts when cold.
Amazing.

All good after todays drive to Korumburrah
:banana: