3rd rear diff

[1nando]

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum. Before anyone has a go at me I know the rear diff in the puma is not very good according to all the research I have done. Yes research.

Anyway, took my 2013 110 limited edition in for a service with 24000 kms on the clock to have the dealer tell me I will need another rear diff. This will be the third since new. I couldn't be any more disheartened....:(
I hope long term that land rover acknowledge the diff issue and eventually sort it out.
Anyway that's my rant.....


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[PAT303]

Did they say why?. Pat

[1nando]

Apparently "I must have got a dodgy one".
When I mentioned that there have been various people with the same problem he said he has not witnessed this diff issue with any of the defenders they sold first hand. He has seen many issues with leaks, a couple of rear axles, some bearings etc.
When they drained the oil shards of metal came out in it.....
It just seems the diff is set up incorrectly from factory

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[BilboBoggles]

All of my Defenders have had 3 or more warranty diffs. In fact overall ive had 10+ replacement diffs.... But if the diff survives the wear in period its lasted well. My td5 has 250,000 on it now.

I think dealers are programmed to say they have never seen that issue before....

Either way not a big deal as even after warranty its not hugely expensive to upgrade.

[1nando]

After warranty runs out I will be looking at a les Richmond automotive rear Ford 9 inch diff and Ashcroft built front diff with the works, axles, cvs, arb lockers and hopefully make it bullet proof.

Has anyone here used les Richmond automotive before? Opinion?

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[Ancient Mariner]

I have been running Ford 9" diffs since the late about 1968 .The first was a 80" S! with 28 spline axles and Detroit locker rear and LS front.This would be more than adequate unless you intend using more than 220 hp as you can use standard spindles and hubs .The second option is 31 spline axles which requires
new spindles to pass the axle Diam thru and becomes expensive The 3rd option is bigger side gears in the diff larger axles spindles and hubs and becomes really exy:o

AM

[1nando]

So I've got an update.

On Friday my replacement diff went in. Driving home it felt great. Roughly 40 minutes on the motorway. Less clunky and much smoother gear changes, less backlash. This was all well and good until today. I thought I'd go for a drive with the MRS down to wollongong. I can report that with 155 kms on this new diff there is already a grinding/shearing noise. Exactly like the last one.

I am so disappointed. I've spent a fortune doing this car up. The les richmond 9 inch seems a good idea but considering I still have 1 and 1/2 years left of warranty this leaves that option out. Before the replacement diff went in I called land rover Australia and asked they get a professional diff specialist to look at it. They won't do it. I've had 2 diff specialists tell me that the rear housing is more than likely bent and the rear end needs to be completely replaced.

I'm so disappointed I'm thinking of trading it in and buying a landcruiser. I know, I've committed a sin mentioning toyota but I need confidence that the vehicle I'm driving won't leave me stranded and at the moment my defender is nothing but a headache.

.....I love the car but it is scary to know that land rover just keeps throwing diffs at my car rather than addressing the problem. 25000kms and I already know I will need a 4th diff😭😭😭😭

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Nando

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[Lockee]

If that is the only gripe update the diff now, may as we'll enjoy the vehicle

[Graeme]

Have you considered getting a report from a wheel alignment specialist for the rear wheel alignment? If the housing is bent then it should show-up then you'd have something on paper to show the dealer.

[PAT303]

So I've got an update.

On Friday my replacement diff went in. Driving home it felt great. Roughly 40 minutes on the motorway. Less clunky and much smoother gear changes, less backlash. This was all well and good until today. I thought I'd go for a drive with the MRS down to wollongong. I can report that with 155 kms on this new diff there is already a grinding/shearing noise. Exactly like the last one.

I am so disappointed. I've spent a fortune doing this car up. The les richmond 9 inch seems a good idea but considering I still have 1 and 1/2 years left of warranty this leaves that option out. Before the replacement diff went in I called land rover Australia and asked they get a professional diff specialist to look at it. They won't do it. I've had 2 diff specialists tell me that the rear housing is more than likely bent and the rear end needs to be completely replaced.

I'm so disappointed I'm thinking of trading it in and buying a landcruiser. I know, I've committed a sin mentioning toyota but I need confidence that the vehicle I'm driving won't leave me stranded and at the moment my defender is nothing but a headache.

.....I love the car but it is scary to know that land rover just keeps throwing diffs at my car rather than addressing the problem. 25000kms and I already know I will need a 4th diff😭😭😭😭

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Nando

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Somethings seriously wrong if you've needed 4 diffs in 25K,I'd be getting a second opinion from a diff specialist and letting LR know about it. Pat

[1nando]

Hi guys,

Appreciate the advise. Today I'm calling my dealer to let him know about the diff. Then booking it in at the diff specialist. I'm going to get it on paper as Pat has said and then call land rover australia. Keep you posted.

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[AndyG]

If I was in your shoes, and they fail again,
I would change the oil in the transfer case & gearbox and have it checked for any apparent issues, then change the diff to aftermarket so you can get some enjoyment.

I would also research the lemon laws and drop a copy on the dealers desk so they know your line of thought.

I wonder if LRA is prepared to nominate an alternate dealer.

[PAT303]

No way I'd buy a new vehicle and pay for a change out to make it work,it's a Land Rover not a Tojo. Pat

[67hardtop]

Anyone know why land rover went away from the Salisbury type diff??

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

[1nando]

Update:

Hi guys,

My car was towed yesterday to Trivetts at Alexandria. They called today and said they were looking at it and "getting advice" before they get back to me tomorrow.

I am waiting for the phone call and a reason for my continuing diff issues and how they intend to fix it. If this repair does not work and I am left with the same problem I will use my right under the Australian consumer and fair trading laws to ask for either a refund or replacement.
The vehicle can be deemed a "lemon", which has been faulty since purchase. The constant failed attempts to fix it have failed and as a result the product is considered faulty. No different to getting a refund for a faulty toaster. This is the advice I have been given by the ACCC AND FAIR TRADING NSW.
So I wait for Trivetts solution. That failing I will have my solicitor put together a letter for a refund or replacement which I will be giving to my dealer.

More news tomorrow. ........:mad::mad:



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[AllTerr]

Update:

Hi guys,

My car was towed yesterday to Trivetts at Alexandria. They called today and said they were looking at it and "getting advice" before they get back to me tomorrow.

I am waiting for the phone call and a reason for my continuing diff issues and how they intend to fix it. If this repair does not work and I am left with the same problem I will use my right under the Australian consumer and fair trading laws to ask for either a refund or replacement.
The vehicle can be deemed a "lemon", which has been faulty since purchase. The constant failed attempts to fix it have failed and as a result the product is considered faulty. No different to getting a refund for a faulty toaster. This is the advice I have been given by the ACCC AND FAIR TRADING NSW.
So I wait for Trivetts solution. That failing I will have my solicitor put together a letter for a refund or replacement which I will be giving to my dealer.

More news tomorrow. ........:mad::mad:



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Any word??


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[loanrangie]

Anyone know why land rover went away from the Salisbury type diff??

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

Its was a cost cutting exercise, diff center is same as P38 so they only needed to flip a housing to make it work - worst decision ever.

[blackrangie]

After warranty runs out I will be looking at a les Richmond automotive rear Ford 9 inch diff and Ashcroft built front diff with the works, axles, cvs, arb lockers and hopefully make it bullet proof.

Has anyone here used les Richmond automotive before? Opinion?

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Agreed this is the best current option for Defender P38 Diff Replacement, I am getting a car built with them using one of those diffs but opted for Truhi9 and 35spline, I hear they have done around 5 or more Defender P38 Rover9 diffs now with no dramas and as far as reccomending Les Richmond Automotives workmanship, you'd be hard pressed to find any shop better in the world.

[PAT303]

Its was a cost cutting exercise, diff center is same as P38 so they only needed to flip a housing to make it work - worst decision ever.

Why they didn't just hypoid the rover with stronger internals is beyond me. Pat

[POD]

Sorry to hear of your troubles- this would be extremely frustrating.
Continuing to go back to the dealer begging them for better service and allowing them to make the decisions on whether they will do the job properly- the old saying about complaining to your mother-in-law about your wife comes to mind. I would be getting an independent engineering assessment of the rear axle, i.e. any alignment issues, and taking legal action to compel them to fix it properly. You must surely have a bent rear axle housing or similar, diff centres do not fail time and again for no reason.
Another option that comes to mind is to have an entire new rear axle installed and submit the original for inspection and assessment by an engineer, then legal action against LR to reimburse you for the cost.

[Ancient Mariner]

Land rover Haven't used a decent diff since day one.With the Salisbury they came close but then stuffed up with greased hubs with less distance between bearings and a collapsible
spacer .If they had used a hypoid design with straddle mounted pinion with solid spacer steel instead of cheese there would be none of these ongoing issues:o .Even a LR tec or blind Freddie should be able to pick a housing bent enough to cause diff failures:D

AM:twisted:

[Nat111]

I'm on my second rear diff now at 40, 000. It is certainly a problem that the dealers know about. The dealers will tell you anything, that's why we are so lucky to have this website for support :)

[PAT303]

OK this is getting spooky,I've had a thanks from Isuzurover and I'm agreeing with Ancient Mariner,what the hell was in my corn flakes this morning. Pat

[PAT303]

I'm on my second rear diff now at 40, 000. It is certainly a problem that the dealers know about. The dealers will tell you anything, that's why we are so lucky to have this website for support :)

I've had three problems with my TDCi,the clutch springs,the axle drive flanges and the adapter shaft,the crappy diff is perfect :eek:,no backlash,grumbling noises nothing. Pat

[1nando]

Update:

Sorry for not posting yesterday but I got caught up doing other things. Today I went to Trivetts and did a road test/drive with one of the mechanics. Unfortunately during the 15 minute drive the diff did not once make a noise. How frustrating, to top it off I was made to feel like I did not know what I was talking about (even though I'm a professional driver and work in the transport industry)....
They told me next time it's making the noises to bring it past. I told them it was making it on the way back from wollongong on Sunday. The mechanic said that maybe I have just been unlucky with the diffs until now and this one might be the one that lasts, he said the noise m hearing could be something else, even though it sounds the same as the last diff issue.


Anyway, I'm lost as what to do at the moment.....trade in and buy a LC? Accc and try to get mediation and use my consumer rights?
I'm waiting to see what I'll get as a trade in for mine. If it's decent I'm thinking the Toyota might be the safest long term option.
Thoughts people?


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[PAT303]

Apparently "I must have got a dodgy one".
When I mentioned that there have been various people with the same problem he said he has not witnessed this diff issue with any of the defenders they sold first hand. He has seen many issues with leaks, a couple of rear axles, some bearings etc.
When they drained the oil shards of metal came out in it.....
It just seems the diff is set up incorrectly from factory

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Doesn't matter if it's making a noise when they drive it or not,metal paste is normal,shards of metal aren't. Pat

[blackrangie]

Update:

Sorry for not posting yesterday but I got caught up doing other things. Today I went to Trivetts and did a road test/drive with one of the mechanics. Unfortunately during the 15 minute drive the diff did not once make a noise. How frustrating, to top it off I was made to feel like I did not know what I was talking about (even though I'm a professional driver and work in the transport industry)....
They told me next time it's making the noises to bring it past. I told them it was making it on the way back from wollongong on Sunday. The mechanic said that maybe I have just been unlucky with the diffs until now and this one might be the one that lasts, he said the noise m hearing could be something else, even though it sounds the same as the last diff issue.


Anyway, I'm lost as what to do at the moment.....trade in and buy a LC? Accc and try to get mediation and use my consumer rights?
I'm waiting to see what I'll get as a trade in for mine. If it's decent I'm thinking the Toyota might be the safest long term option.
Thoughts people?


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Man this really does my head in, I feel like calling trivitt myself!

Thinking about it they are making money every time the diff breaks from Land Rover, that might explain why its not fixed.

If it was me, I would take it.

Have you emailed the owner/director/manager of trivetts?

Fenders are awesome and you will love it, its just the diffs in the model suck.

Take it to Davis Performance Landy's in Annangrove, PM me and ill call him for you and fill him in on the situation he can take a look and give you an experts opinion. He is one of the best landy places in OZ. 0296791978 Get him to fix it in a way that doesnt void warranty and send the bill to Trivetts.

Have a good look at Australian Consumer Law website since 2011 consumer is much more protected.

Personally I would chuck a LRA rover9 in it and never worry again
And after what you have been through i wouldnt worry about your warranty being voided on the rest of your car, you are within your rights to fix something if they dont fix it and charge them for it imo but i could be wrong.

As for going to a Cruiser, dont worry they have thier dramas too.

[1nando]

hi guys,

so i have decided to take on Blackrangies advice. I have booked my car in at Bruce Davis automotive on the 15th of December.

I will wait and see what his professional opinion is. If he finds a serious factory fault, which i assume and am adamant there is i will ask for a engineers report as well. I will then use the information he gives me to make a decision as to how to proceed moving forward.

I want to take the opportunity to thank all of you for your help. Its been extremely helpful, but more importantly offered some peace of mind whilst trying to battle what seems the impossible.......:)

[1nando]

Update,

Hi guys,

So today I visited mr Davis. It was a real eye opener, and more importantly a proper diagnosis with someone who knows these vehicles inside out and can offer advise that seems realistic.

So the diagnosis went as follows:
-the noise I have been experiencing is not the new diff. It's a result of the centre diff lock needing new shims and something in there rattling. Back to Trivetts to get that looked at under warranty.......it has what Bruce calls excessive back lash as well.
-the new diff looks as though it has been set up correctly. The first two were new units this one was a refurbished land rover diff. Bruce told me the refurbished ones are rebuilt correctly and I should be right with this one. He put the car on the hoist, one mechanic driving it and another using diagnostic ears on the diff axles etc.....nothing was heard and all looks good.

So now I need to convince Trivetts that there is too much back lash and to have a look at the centre diff lock and the worn shims.....will be fun as the mechanic there seems to think that defenders are supposed to make all kinds of noises...

I'll post up more after going to trivetss

[isuzurover]

Hopefully you have a nice written report to show them?

Again out of warranty an ashcroft atb would be the best centre diff replacement.
T-case problems can often sound like diff problems and vice versa.

[1nando]

All written and ready to go. He said the problem will be convincing the dealer it needs to be done. I'm hoping that they respect his report and carry out the appropriate works.

For me the most important part of today was that I have regained my faith in my landy. I've experienced great 4wd days that have left my mates speechless and me smiling and today I drove home smiling again. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Landy owners have told me that the hardest part for some is the warranty period as this can drive you to the point of selling your vehicle. I was contemplating this myself. If you are willing to wait and iron out the problems you'll be left with the best 4wd vehicle on the market today, I look forward to that day..

[p38arover]

Its was a cost cutting exercise, diff center is same as P38 so they only needed to flip a housing to make it work - worst decision ever.

The P38A doesn't seem to have diff problems. Why does the Defender?

[isuzurover]

The P38A doesn't seem to have diff problems. Why does the Defender?

I think they do when used hard offroad. However the defender seems to suffer from a significant downgrade in CW&P quality and/or diff setup - which is much more critical on the P38 diff due to the short pinion bearing spacing.

[p38arover]

Thanks Ben.


I think they do when used hard offroad.

I can understand that but there seem to be more than a few problems on Defenders that haven't been used hard off-road. I could be wrong as it's not something I've followed closely.

I'm not sure that many P38As get used that much off-road! :(

[Scouse]

The P38A doesn't seem to have diff problems. Why does the Defender?Neither did the Defender until 2007 (no warranty issues at least).

[blackrangie]

Update,

Hi guys,

So today I visited mr Davis. It was a real eye opener, and more importantly a proper diagnosis with someone who knows these vehicles inside out and can offer advise that seems realistic.

So the diagnosis went as follows:
-the noise I have been experiencing is not the new diff. It's a result of the centre diff lock needing new shims and something in there rattling. Back to Trivetts to get that looked at under warranty.......it has what Bruce calls excessive back lash as well.
-the new diff looks as though it has been set up correctly. The first two were new units this one was a refurbished land rover diff. Bruce told me the refurbished ones are rebuilt correctly and I should be right with this one. He put the car on the hoist, one mechanic driving it and another using diagnostic ears on the diff axles etc.....nothing was heard and all looks good.

So now I need to convince Trivetts that there is too much back lash and to have a look at the centre diff lock and the worn shims.....will be fun as the mechanic there seems to think that defenders are supposed to make all kinds of noises...

I'll post up more after going to trivetss

Glad all went well! I love going to Davis, always great trucks there to look at, and they do a great job! Was there last week.

[1nando]

According to Bruce the new diffs are set up incorrectly. The refurbished ones are of good quality. Bruce says that they are set up correctly, unlike the new ones land rover builds the refurbished ones with correct set up. He says that when set up correctly they are a good diff.

[PAT303]

Hopefully you have a nice written report to show them?

Again out of warranty an ashcroft atb would be the best centre diff replacement.
T-case problems can often sound like diff problems and vice versa.

Well why do you constantly blame the diff?,you seem to enjoy putting **** on me for saying we need to look at all possibilities. Pat

[PAT303]

The P38A doesn't seem to have diff problems. Why does the Defender?

I've been saying that from the start,plenty of P38A's running their originals with big miles on them. Pat

[isuzurover]

Well why do you constantly blame the diff?,you seem to enjoy putting **** on me for saying we need to look at all possibilities. Pat

I am sorry. I don't know what you are smoking??? That was my first post in this thread that you quoted.