Series 1 identification

[Bundalene]

Could someone please ID the following vehicle. The dash has me confused.





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/923.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyfnQdVdj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/924.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0FL6azrj)




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/925.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipznoFKOj)






Erich

[shamirj]

Hi

I dont think that panel on drivers side is original, prob fitted later by the previous owner to install additional gadgets as some do, not sure of age though, if close or nearby a wheelbase measurement would narrow down the years.

[JDNSW]

An 86". The dash looks to be standard except for the additional panel on the right. The steering wheel is definitely not off a Landrover - they are all three spoke. The bonnet would seem to be off a 88" or 109".

John

[wrinklearthur]

The firewall is the 1954 build as it hasn't the hole in the end of the grab rail.
The door tops are the type that dump rain water over you and they were fitted '54 -'55.

Bonnet is off a 88", well spotted JDNSW !

Edit. the bonnet may only appear longer because the pins of the hinge are out of their holes. There is only a difference of one inch in length of the two types of bonnet, between the two wheelbases and the thing that made me look again was the placement of the rubbers for the spare wheel mounting, that configuration was normally done for the 86".

Quickest way to spot which bonnet it is, is to look for the mount for the horn the 88 has the horn suspended on the bolts under the left hand side hinge. Another difference is the last row of rivets is a inch further forward from the rear edge of the bonnet and the placement of the bonnet prop.
.

[B.S.F.]

Ignore.

[Bundalene]

Thanks all, I suspected early 86 inch model. My nephew took these pics while 4wding on a country property. I'll have a look and decide if it is worth it and see what the owner wants.

Apparently the owner also has an earlier Series 1 which his father bought from new, but this is definitely not for sale. I will try and get there early next week and get some pics of the other one as well. It is about 4 hours+ away



BTW, are these front vent openers (blue circle, also any ides what the red circled item is - home made grab handle.




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/920.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exhp9IJVj)



I am on a steep learning curve with these vehicles and haven't had much to do with the 86 inch




Erich.

[Landy Smurf]

The blue circles are the vent control openers.
I dont know about the the other one.

[JDNSW]

Same as Landy Smurf - the blue circled ones are standard Series 1 vent controls.

The red circled item is a later addition, possibly a grab handle, but more likely a mount, or part of a mount for something, possibly a gun rack.

John

[wrinklearthur]

The red circled item is a later addition, possibly a grab handle, but more likely a mount, or part of a mount for something, possibly a gun rack.

Defiantly not Land Rover.
My guess is like what John says and it's a rifle steady.

Good luck on getting the pictures of the earlier Land Rover, I am keen to see what you have found.
.

[wrinklearthur]

Ignore.

Still think what you wrote is interesting. I copied it back out of the email that's sent when one is subscribed to a thread.


The bonnet is just sitting there ,not on it's hinges.The spare tyre support rubbers arranged in a + form ( as opposed to X) points to a 54 model. .W.


Hope you don't mind me putting it back up again. :angel:
.

[gromit]

Quickest way to spot which bonnet it is, is to look for the mount for the horn the 88 has the horn suspended on the bolts under the left hand side hinge.

Arthur,
My 1956 86" has the horn in this position. Looks original but who knows after all these years.
Would each State agent have assembled them slightly differently.

Mine also has a green chassis which I've been told is incorrect.


Colin

[wrinklearthur]

Arthur,
My 1956 86" has the horn in this position. Looks original but who knows after all these years.
Would each State agent have assembled them slightly differently.
Mine also has a green chassis which I've been told is incorrect.


Hi Colin

If the horn is the original fitment position, the chassis wouldn't have the tapped hole in the blanking plate where the steering relay would have been fitted if it was a left hand drive and there wouldn't be any remnants of the horn wiring in that area either.

The wiring loom for the horn position near the LHS hinge has the two wires for the horn at the firewall.

.

[gromit]

Hi Colin

If the horn is the original fitment position, the chassis wouldn't have the tapped hole in the blanking plate where the steering relay would have been fitted if it was a left hand drive and there wouldn't be any remnants of the horn wiring in that area either.

The wiring loom for the horn position near the LHS hinge has the two wires for the horn at the firewall.

.

Arthur,
Just put it away in the shed, will take a good look next weekend.
Harness is the original and the horn wires exit the harness close to where the horn is mounted. Don't remember any wiring near the LH relay position or whether it's tapped.


Colin

[Landy Smurf]

I found this info interesting:
The engine bays are longer on 88/109 models, have a look at the bonnet hinges, on the early ones the hinge bends straight up after the rear mounting bolts, on the extended wheelbase there is at least an inch of flat before the bend.
88/109 wings also have reinforcement pieces under the bonnet clamps and around where the rubber buffers go in the wings, if its not had a million coats of paint you may see the spot welds but running your fingers inside the arch will quickly find them if present. From there stand back and look if the wheel is central in the arch but if its got parabolics that can screw that up too.

It is quite common to see vehicles with the wrong wings and bonnet and stuff. I've even seen chassis with the wrong dumb irons as people replace them too, usually with S2 versions!

Whilst the wheelbase was changed the total body length was not hence the spring hanger under rather than behind the bumper, also if you look at the front wing the wheel arch is right at the front of an 88/109 where as its slightly further back on an 86/107 so the front edge is noticeably thicker. I think the bonnet and wings got extended an inch and the arch moved forward an inch to make the 2 inch axle movement.

When identifying axles (assuming the body is on) be careful to note what wheels and tyres are on. If its a semi floating axle you can be sure its an S1. Proper fully floating S1 axles aren't that common but you usually find them on LWB models. 90% of them are quite easy to spot now though as they'll have been fitted with S2 halfshafts and will have a spacer behind the drive flange making them look quite odd, if you chop it about a bit though you can fit an S2 shaft without doing this, I've done it on mine (I have FF on one side and SF on the other!) Even on 235/85R16 tyres and LWB rims the proper S1 axle puts the wheels nicely inside the arches, even on 6.5 in rims with a low offset it shouldn't be sticking out the arches much if at all. S2 axles will have the tyres right under the edge of the arches and anything wider than a 5.5F ET 33 (standard LWB rim) will be pushing you into the realm of needing extended arches. A really skinny tyre could hide this a little, your talking 1.5 in increased track so each wheel is 0.75 in further out.

88/109 models should have a square looking steering box with a flat end plate (recirculating ball), horn push on a stalk, dipswitch on the floor and a flat wheel cap (spoked steering wheel, if its a later wheel its had a later box). Worm and nut steering boxes look more curved and have a funny clamp poking out the end which holds the steering boss on a really long tube down the middle of the wheel - the boss itself is worth a fortune if not broken, doesn't turn with the steering and has a horn and dipswitch on it.

88/109 (late 56 MY onward) chassis numbers will always start with a 1, the 2nd digit is the chassis type and the 4th digit will be the model year,
Pre 56MY (86/107) the 1st digit is the model year, the 3rd is the chassis type,
56 model 86/107's the 4th digit is the model year (always a 6) and I think the first digit is the chassis type.
Chassis type is 1=86, 2=107PU, 3=107SW.
1956 model 88/109s are quite rare as they only made them for a month or so right at the end of the model year though they have no unusual features.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Aeroplanes have wings
Boats have fenders
Aussie cars have mudguards!
:D

I think that you will find that the wheel arch moved the full 2" forward on the 88/109. Just look at the position of the bolt for the rear support bracket

86/107 position.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/659.jpg

88/109 position.
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2441/u7ra.jpg

The reason that it looks to be only an 1" is because a lot of the 109" are now fitted with 7.50 16 when they were originally designed to have 6.00 16 to 6.50 16 with a maximum of 7.00 16 tyres.

But you are quite correct about the: bonnet; front spring hangers; and bumpers.

[B.S.F.]

The mudguard on a 88/109 got extended by 1" at the back, and so did the bonnet, but the front axle was moved forward by 2". .W.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The mudguard on a 88/109 got extended by 1" at the back, and so did the bonnet, but the front axle was moved forward by 2". .W.So what you're saying is that the stay for the rear of the wheel arch was shortened by 1" in the 88/109 so that it is aprox 2 1/2" rearward of the bottom corner of the wheelarch, instead of about 1/2"?

[wrinklearthur]

Every one is right to a point, the 88" mudguard has 1" of length added to the rear of it and the wheel arch is further forward by a 1", a total of 2" overall.

The bonnet is longer by 1", with longer hinges, the 1" of extra material being between the last row of rivets and it's back edge. That places the front of the radiator support panel 1" further away from the engine.

A nice addition to the door latch on a 88" is the pressed steel plate cover to stop your clothes getting greasy.
.

[B.S.F.]

Perhaps this helps.The bottom one is a S1 88/109, the top one is a S1 86/107. .W.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Every one is right to a point, the 88" mudguard has 1" of length added to the rear of it and the wheel arch is further forward by a 1", a total of 2" overall.

The bonnet is longer by 1", with longer hinges, the 1" of extra material being between the last row of rivets and it's back edge. That places the front of the radiator support panel 1" further away from the engine.

A nice addition to the door latch on a 88" is the pressed steel plate cover to stop your clothes getting greasy.
.On the down side lots of other things got cheapened up, the machined window locks got replaced by die-cast ones.

At least the door tops were gal, unlike the 1957 advent of the internally unprotected door tops which continued (and rusted out) until the end of SIII.

[gromit]

Aeroplanes have wings
Boats have fenders
Aussie cars have mudguards!



But British cars still have wings (check your parts manuals).
They also have dynamos not generators.;)

Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

But British cars still have wings (check your parts manuals).
They also have dynamos not generators.;)

ColinBut I don't live in the (still) UK and when you look at the parts manuals they discuss the different terminology between the English market and the North American market. Why don't they extend that to the Australian market.

And before you start talking about tilts and bulkheads they are not called those names in the manuals either.

More than that I do call them dynamos!

Diana :)

[chazza]

Seeing that we are all intelligent adults who usually don't get involved in pointless arguments, we can also accept that terminology for various parts is interchangeable - surely?

Be it a wing, or a mudguard, or a fender, or a welch plug, or a core-plug, we all know what is meant and all we need to do, is accept that English is a wonderfully varied language.

Thank you for the interesting posts on differences between the models from everyone - I found BSF's photo very helpful,

Cheers Charlie

[101RRS]

Ok so it is Hoods, Trunks, Fenders, Trucks, Tires and SUVs then :D.

The other obvious way to tell the difference between un modified 86s and 88s is the grill radiator panels - the 86 has two extra ventilation holes at the bottom. The 88 has the main large hole in the centre and the two smaller ones over the chassis rails.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry Chazza, when it comes to welch plug and core plug, I don't agree. We blew a welch plug on an International M5A1 halftrack at Kapooka with an event planned the next week at RAAF Wagga, the appropriate sized welch plug was ordered and a cup type core plug supplied.

Of course it didn't fit so the simple task of replacing a plug in the block took a month instead of a week.

If people used the correct terminology we wouldn't have these issues. Its the same with bolts and set screws/set bolts. If people understood the difference things would work as they're supposed to work, particularly now we have so much online buying.

[Bundalene]

Thanks all for the advice, Yes I agree BSF's photo is worth a thousand words.

I haven't been able to get away this week to have a look - hopefully next week. Is there consensus of the vehicle's age in the pics on page 1 maybe a 54 or 55 model 86inch? I know there isn't a lot to go on other than a bolt here or rivet there.

We have a 51, 53 and a 58 Series1 and I am reasonably certain sure this is after 53 and before 58.



Erich

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Erich

Get the number off the ID that will tell you everything.

To me it looks every bit an 86" making it 1954 or 1955 model, the 88" starting in 1956. The bonnet, while it overhangs the radiator support panel, it isn't fitted into the hinges, so the original 86" bonnet rather than an 88/109 bonnet

Diana

[chazza]

Sorry Chazza, when it comes to welch plug and core plug, I don't agree.

Ah ha! I didn't know there was a difference.

Over here they are always called core-plugs, although seeing that there are an awful lot of immigrants from the east, that may be changing,

Cheers Charlie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Ah ha! I didn't know there was a difference.

Over here they are always called core-plugs, although seeing that there are an awful lot of immigrants from the east, that may be changing,

Cheers CharlieThat's the big problem, many people use the term interchangeably, when the welch plug is actually a domed disk that fits up against a shoulder in the block. When you hit the dome the disk flattens out and expands to seal the hole in the block.

Very few engines these days still require a welch plug, mostly its the cups.

[B.S.F.]

That's the big problem, many people use the term interchangeably, when the welch plug is actually a domed disk that fits up against a shoulder in the block. When you hit the dome the disk flattens out and expands to seal the hole in the block.

Very few engines these days still require a welch plug, mostly its the cups.

All my L/R engines have got the dome facing inward. .W.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

All my L/R engines have the dome facing inward. .W.LR Engines use the cup type core plug where the edges/wall of the cup are tapered and that is what makes the seal.

In a welch plug (sometimes also called an expansion plug) it is a flat disk of metal (not a cup) that is pressed slightly to make a dome. This reduces the diameter of the of the disk, which expands in the engine when flattened out.

Welch type or expanding core plugs
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/544.jpg

The easy way to tell if an engine uses cup or welch type is that the holes in the block have a shoulder (welch) or smooth (cup)

Cup type core plug.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/545.jpg

[B.S.F.]

What's the picture of ? .W.

[JDNSW]

What's the picture of ? .W.
Welch

John

[gromit]

Welch Bros apparently came up with the Welch plug (funny that). The Welch car company was purchased by General Motors (1909)
Core plug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_plug)

The Welch plug is a type of core plug used to plug the holes used in the casting process to hold the sand core for the waterways in place. Early days they were threaded plugs but threading the block and making a threaded plug is expensive so a 'lower cost' solution was needed.
They use foam cores now, these melt to nothing so core holes are not needed (saving more in the manufacturing process).

You'll sometimes see them called freeze plugs because people think they are there so that if the water in the block freezes they push out. This can happen but isn't the reason they are there.

How It's Made Engine Blocks - YouTube



Colin

[chazza]

Top video Colin!

A bit different to the way Chazza does it! :D