D2 td5 poor start and low power on hills

[Ermpz]

Hi to everyone.
Im new to this forum, bought 2000 d2 td5 es not long time ago and struggling with it now.
Let me start from the beginning to narrow down possible causes.
When i bought the car it started fine and drove fine. Had strong start as soon i turned the key. Engine was pulling fine with city speeds. No warning lights. No smoke.
After using it for a while i noticed fuel consumption was off the roof. About 20 per 100 in city. Driving style is not hard. Not towing. Empty vehicle with me and my partner.
Found engine oil level too high and smell of diesel. Changed injector copper washers and o-rings.
Then it all started.
It starts as soon i turn the key and stays running. Just starting is very poor/weak. If engine is warm it starts better a bit. Kind of like misfiring but not at the same time. Like not enough fuel and whole car is shaking a bit. It stays like this couple of seconds and then pics up normal engine ticking over speed.
I thought i did something wrong while changing the washers and seals and i changed them again. Everything was done properly. I didn't see any visible cracks in injector holes. Also changed injector harness this time.
So far seems like engine oil level is the same. Still checking every now and then to confirm. Also fuel consumption dropped to 12 on mixed driving. Most of it was on highway.
Next step. Connected T4 and got some decent codes finally. Codes were ambient pressure circuit fault, air flow circuit fault, faults with driver demand, injector 1,2,3 short circuit and injector 5 open circuit. I checked wiring from maf and ambient air pressure sensor till ecu and no faults found with them. Found oil contamination in red ecu connector. Cleaned it all up with connector cleaner. Ecu inside is oil free. Also checked low side fuel pressure which is over 4 bars. I swapped maf sensor with known good one.
Been driving after all this couple of hundred km. checked today again. Only fault is logged for driver demand. I do get every now and then no response from throttle after start up. This is my next step to check wiring and most likely pedal sensor plays up. Anyways i don't think it will affect starting.
Other issue is low power on hills. It has good pull in the city. Between 70-90 it is quite gutless. Going up the hill 90km it starts dropping. Pressing more throttle does not change much. Pressing more kicks down the gear and screams but no go. Speed down to 70. I thought torque converter or gearbox. Did stall test and get just about under 2600 rpm which indicates engine performance problems.
Are these two related i don't know but it seems so. I will change gearbox filter and oil to avoid this simple thing.
Removed turbo vacuum control valve and connected turbo straight to metal pipe as defenders. New control valve waiting for fitment. Found also a bit too big play from turbo turbines. Still makes no sense it has pull on low speeds and not much inbetween. Over 90 it kind of starts going again.
I have also done full service with all filters. Fuel filter is not genuine but do not think that is the issue as fuel pressure is all good. Service was done first thing when i bought it and car did not play up after that.

Sorry for so long text, just tried to narrow down many possible common problems i am aware of.
If you have any good ideas i might try i would really appreciate.
I have some live readings of sensors and injectors not sure what they must be though. Injectors are between -1 and +3. Every now and then jumping +4 or +5.

Love the car but giving me headache :mad:

Cheers,
Ermo

[simonmelb]

Hi Ermo, big first post and well done do far in your persisting!

Have you checked that you are actually getting boost pressure ?

Eg check the wastegate moves freely when disconnected from the actuatôr, then test the wastegate actuator does it's job when some air pressure is applied through the small hose - I use a bike pump.

Try adjusting the wastegate up then.

Also checked the turbo hoses ?

[Southern Cross]

Im new here too and learning about LDs foibles. Just a thought, could there be water contamination or partial blockage in the fuel pump? Also i have read here on this site that there have be known instances where rubber has delaminated from inside the rubber hose section of the air intake tract. This causes a number of erratic running issues.
I will follow this thread as part of my ongoing education of British techknowledge. The phrase " Best of British Luck" comes to mind.
I hope you resolve these issues without further frustrations.
Cheers

[sierrafery]

Hi, beside the above inputs, based on those fault codes, i think that the injector faults were due to the injector loom which now it's fixed, the MAF as well, those balances between +/- 5 are good enough, check fuse F2 in engine bay fusebox to rule it out, if this is checked and ok what you didnt do and can cause those running issues is the AAP sensor(in the airbox) as you've got that ambient pressure fault code as well...get hold of a known good one if you can cos new for your engine is friggin expensive.. or check live readings if you have access to tester, it must read around 100kPa(actually the real ambient pressure where you are) and drop max 2-3 units under hard throttle, ine of the symptoms of this sensor is "altitude compensation inoperative" (speaking about hills)... replace the depression controll valve(crankcase breather/manifold pressure valve...how ever it sounds better for you;)) if you know it's old... this one can mix up things too

do you still have EGR?... anyway clean the MAP/IAT sensor on the inlet manifold, this one can make you trouble as well, live readings can reveal things on this too

a live reading about the fuel temp would be good cos fuel temp sensor fault can give you big consumption and bad starting and it has no warning... or simply replace it cos this one is cheap, the same with the engine coolant temp sensor, which can make trouble as well if it has low readings, the gauge will go to the middle when the reading from this sensor is 70*C and stay there untill 120*C so if this sensor has low reading will affect consumption, i saw cases when aftermarket ECT sensor made trouble as it gave lower readings that the real temp and the engine management increased fueling even though the engine temp was normal

enough for now IMO:)

[Ermpz]

I still have egr fitted. Have had thoughts of removing it, not sure how big difference it might give.
I haven't checked wastegate and have not adjusted it. Have to find some information how this adjustment actually have to be carried out.
I have some live readings printed out. Can not remember what was the engine temp status though.
Coolant temp +60,5
Inlet air temp +42,2
Fuel rail temp +49,7
Manifold pressure 100,56 kpa
Ambient pressure 101,47 kpa
Air flow 62,7
Weird thing i just realised it shows egr inlet throttle not fitted. I still have egr fitted though.

I will clean map and recheck live data once engine is warm.
As mentioned i checked wiring for maf and ambient pressure sensor. Fuse is ok. Sensor gets voltage. No shorts to live neither ground neither shorts to other signal wires. No open circuit. So i would eliminate wiring.
As i remember wiring diagram showed one signal wire for map and ambient is common? I might be wrong here. Will check it again tomorrow.
Coming back to this crankcase breather valve. Its the one between valve cover and air hose kind of top to rotor oil filter? Is there any way i could connect it straight to eliminate it or check operation? Just do not want to start changing parts when not sure it actually needed replacing.

I will keep it updated :)

[sierrafery]

Here you have info about that manifold depression valve: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/208970-td5-manifold-depression-valve.html , you can't check if it's working OK or not, only if it's completely shot... normally the MAP reading must be the same with the AAP reading at idle, I'm sure that the MAP is pretty gunked if EGR is still on... inlet throttle was fitted only on later modells(late 2001 on, those with 15P engines)

feed from F2 is to MAF, EGR modulator and wastegate modulator, AAP gets feed directly from ECM on the same circuit with MAP/IAT

[Ermpz]

I had very little time to deal with my car today. Checked map and it was properly covered with thick oily mass. Cleaned it all up. No difference noticed.
I was just wondering how much td5 relies on glow plugs? Im originally from euro and in winter time and when its gold it is important. Now mornings are warm and even during the day its warm but it still struggles first start.
i will check glow plugs tomorrow. Also will check witing again to map, maf and aap. I should have access to mickywick to test wastegate also.

[roverv8]

Check the vacuum line from the boost modulator switch down to the section of metal pipe in between the turbo & intercooler.
It can go soft & split, losing power.

[Ermpz]

As i previously wrote i removed this valve and fitted vacuum hose straight from this turbo metal pipe to turbo already.

[sierrafery]

Undo the thick hose from itercooler to EGR valve and take a look into it...it might be filled with muck, if you take live readings again see how much the ambient pressure drops between idle and 3000 rpm

The glow plugs are important part of the engine management and they can disturb the cold start even if it's not cold outside IMO:


.
...The glow plugs are a vital part of the engine starting strategy.
The purpose of the glow plugs is:
l Assist cold engine start.
l Reduce exhaust emissions at low engine load/speed.
................
Pre-heat is the length of time the glow plugs operate prior to engine cranking. The ECM controls the pre-heat time of
the glow plugs based on battery voltage and coolant temperature information via the glow plug relay.

Post-heat is the length of time the glow plugs operate after the engine starts. The ECM controls the post-heat time
based on ECT information. If the ECT fails the ECM will operate pre/post-heat time strategies with default values from
its memory. The engine will be difficult to start.

If you have tester plug it in in the morning or after the car had enough time to cool down completely and compare the coolant temp and fuel temp readings immediately after start up with the real outside temperature shown by a thermometer, both readings must be very close to reality and to each other then, any discrepancy might cause hard starting

[roverv8]

It starts as soon i turn the key and stays running. Just starting is very poor/weak. If engine is warm it starts better a bit. Kind of like misfiring but not at the same time. Like not enough fuel and whole car is shaking a bit. It stays like this couple of seconds and then pics up normal engine ticking over speed.This sounds like an air leak in the fuel system, maybe not starting better because it's warm, but because it's been running & the fuel hasn't ran back yet.
Is there any trace of diesel around the Fuel Pressure reg.
Just throwing in some idea's....

[roverv8]

Also, when you did the injector orings & copper washers, did you do this 1 injector at a time & replace to the same spot?
They are coded & have to go back in the same order, or you have to recode the 5 of them if you mixed them up.

[bronson]

How many K's has it done? Does it sound like its popping through the exhaust valves on idle?

cheers
Bronson

[strangy]

This sounds like a failing fuel pump to me.
The description you give matches my experience with a dying fuel pump.
However Before lashing out on pump change-
There is a good thread here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/193980-td5-fuel-pump-maintence-repair-tutorial.html pulling the pump and cleaning the filter screens.
I would be pulling the pump and confirming the 2 stage operation and cleanliness of the screens filters. Also confirm the fuel filter is correctly seated.

Diesel bacteria (aka snot, algae) is commonly found in older vehicles and appears like black silicone smeared on the filter screens and in severe cases forms on the whole surface of the fuel tank and fuel lines.
Common degreaser (pressure pack not the alkaline type) makes short work of it. Don't put degreaser in the system or components unless they are removed from the truck. You don't really want degreaser in the injectors.
A biocide/diesel treatment in the tank and appropriate filter changes are a good idea on vehicles this age and with limited history.

The rough running on start cold and improved but not good hot, has me a little concerned for a crack in the head.
I have also had the head crack in the gallery at Inlet runner 1
The coolant would be forced into the runner after shutdown and the poor engine would try and compress and burn it after start. this would last about 3 seconds and be fine until the next start. I was lucky not to have hydraulic lock/damaged the engine.
However as it was coolant unpressurised by compression gases I had no power loss.

A crook MAF wont cause the significant level of power loss you are experiencing.
Unless the problem has occurred since changing the injector washers and O rings , I wouldn't be second guessing them.
Injector coding is relevant for "fuel trim" only to ensure optimum smooth idle.
It is a myth that incorrect injector codes cause anything more.
Its always good to have the injector codes for each cylinder correct, but don't stress on it. If they are wrong you can recode it without pulling injectors using Nanocom etc. Incorrect coding wont be the cause of your problems.

Glow plug are 4 of the 5 cylinders and they do make a difference for first start. But will have zero affect on your issues.

[Ermpz]

Wow quite a massive feedback and lots of interesting thoughts.
Im very busy at the moment and do not have much time to test much.
Checked intercooler hose from egr - a bit oil but no muck.
No faults in ecm. What i just realised is most probably i generated maf and aap faults myself when playing around with fuses and connectors. Stupid me but crosses off couple of things on list :)
Injectors went back the same cylinder they came from.
Fuse 2 is fine.
Map gets voltages from ecu.
Fitted new vacuum modulator for turbo and new vacuum hoses. Turbo is not so noisy as it was before and pull is definitely better even in city. Is it sorted i am not sure. Have to take her out from city.
One glow plug not working. Soaked it with penetrating oil every now and then thorough the day and finally got it moving. New plug arriving tomorrow. Is it gonna fix it i do not know and will see tomorrow.
My worst fear is cracks in the head. I do not want to think that way yet though. Previous owner changed head gasket and i am assuming he sent head for checks and skimming if needed. Again, it doesn't mean that there are no cracks at this point in time.
About air leak. I have tried to start the vehicle and holding ignition on before for a while to prime it up. It doesn't make much of a difference to be honest.
My vehicle has done quite a mileage, 357000.
Picked up my gf todays evening. She definitely felt better pull. What i saw was kind of smoke from exhaust when accelerating a bit harder. How much and what colour i do not know. Just saw it from rear view mirror while accelerating and there was a car behind me, in front of other car lights it was obvious.
Will smoke test air system for any possible leaks as soon as i find a moment.
Also realised problem with throttle response when ac is on. There is a code for driver demand. Have to check wiring.
Loads of little things to check and test and they all are time consuming.
Next week will go to Sydney so not much will be happening.

I really appreciate your input guys :angel:

[roverv8]

About air leak. I have tried to start the vehicle and holding ignition on before for a while to prime it up.

You need to have the accelerator pedal to the floor also to purge/prime, not just the ignition on

[bronson]

Do a comp test on it mate.

Bronson

[Ermpz]

Update.
I tried to start after proper prime procedure (when pressing accelerator five or more times after turning ignition on) - no difference in starting. If there is any fuel related problem or example fuel running back towards fuel tank then I am assuming just turning the ignition on should give some difference as low line pump kicks in if ignition is in position II.
Replaced faulty glow plug - not much difference to be honest. At least one fault eliminated from my vehicle.
My next steps to check will be:
*smoke test air system for any possible air leaks
*compression test if I manage to get the tool for that (i do not think that will be the issue as on lower speeds it has quite good pull)
*replace gearbox filter and oil (it does feel if I am driving on 4th gear and the hill comes gearbox changes one gear down. It feels like it misses 3rd and goes between 2 and 3. Hard to explain. Once it changes down and I release the throttle a bit, I feel how it changes the gear up again and this gear is in this case 3rd. Confusing but this is how it feels)
*I know I fitted all injectors back exactly where I took them, but, I will re-program them to ECU to eliminate this possible cause
*I will order and change this crankcase breather valve as recommended
*I will double check low side fuel pressure while starting and while engine running
*I will test coolant system for any possible exhaust fumes (do not have any problems with over heating or loosing coolant though)

If all these are tested and passed the only possible cause what fits in my head is crack from head. Oil level is not rising and oil does not smell like diesel either. I just do not feel like striping engine apart to send the head away for testing if I am not sure that is the problem. If anyone knows any good test I could do to test cylinder head for leaks please let me know.

Checked some prices for cylinder heads. Found a place what sells new head for about 1300 (new valves and valve guides etc. fitted). Also possible to get reconditioned one through ebay for 650, exchange basis. They say all heads have passed pressure tests and thread tests etc. They will deliver new head and once I have changed it, they will arrange pick up for old one. If it goes so far I wont even test mine to spend any extra money and order "new" head. That is the reason why I would like to eliminate any other possible causes.
If you happen to know anyone, who is selling cylinder head for TD5 - which is in good refurbished condition, please let me know.

I will be away next week and do not have any chance to work on my D2.

Cheers guys!

[sierrafery]

Another thing to rule out before you spend big money, i didnt re-read the whole thread but iirc this wasnt covered, it's in the rear outer connection of the fuel filter's head named "air bleed valve" = WJN500110 , it deffinitely gives starting issues and can provoke even running issues in some cases.... if you replace it make the purging sequence after

[Ermpz]

Hi.
Quite some time has passed but here is new update of the issues.
Checked injector codes in ECU - all correct.
Swapped ECU with known good one - no difference.
Swapped MAP/IAT sensor with known good one - starting issue fixed.
I connected t4 and checked live readings of intake air temperature and pressure. Swapped with known good sensors and these readings were very similar. Only thing what I noticed was that with my sensor after start up, temp readings were about 30 degrees and started dropping. Once i turned the engine off and left the ignition on, temp started rising. Is that normal I do not know. Anyways i swapped it and it is so much better start.
New sensor is over 200 bucks.
It feels like car pulls better also.
Still planning to change gearbox filter and oil and crankcase breather valve.
Someone mentioned air bleed valve in fuel system, if its not very expensive i will change it also.
Cheers.

[discorevy]

Do you still have air in the system ?, strangled cat noise with ign on after the vehicle has been sitting for a few minutes?, did you anneal the copper washers when doing injectors?. Also check cam timing if you still have low power.
cheers

[discorevy]

Also to answer your last question , your air intake temp , this is normal
due to latent heat build up , temps will start to drop after running , driving for a short while.
cheers

[Ermpz]

To discorevy:
Just changed injector seals and started using the vehicle.
No air in fuel system, no loud noises from the pump. Just thought about the valve as someone suggested.
An update.
Starting seems better most of the days but still not fixed. Some days it starts absolutely fine, the other days it has still weak start.
I have changed MAF, MAP and AAT sensors with known good ones. The other car starts and runs fine with my sensors.
Ordered crankcase breather valve.
Changed auto box filter and oil.
Gear change is smoother a bit. Pull is a bit better in city speeds.
Now it is longer weekend coming and hopefully i can get out to highway to see is there any difference.
What i have noticed is that my disco always wants to change gear before 3000rpm. If i really press the accelerator it goes over 3000 also but not huge difference in pull. Then out of the sudden it goes over 3000 very easily, it feels like engine runs lighter and smoother. This all just for once every now and then. Maybe breather valve? I have had throttle pedal faults logged, can this cause it?
Also fuel economy is not one of the best. The best i have had on highway was 13l/100km. Empty vehicle. From full tank till light on and then refilled and calculated. Reading here you guys get the same or less in city. Tanked up $50 bucks, got half tank, light came on and about 230km.
I am sure it all is linked together.
Kind of disappointed.
I will try to mount low side fuel pressure gauge so i can see it while driving also.
Have a safe Christmas guys!

[discorevy]

ermpz , don't know if you are able to get live data while driving but if you can give some figures re ambient temp , air flow , boost at 100 kph flat road no wind steady throttle , we can go from there , as long as you don't have oversize muddies

compare with this for now
ambient air temp 23
air flow 260-275
boost .45-.55
this is with nanocom
re fuel economy you need to brim the tank to be close to accurate............you may know this but just to be sure

cheers

[Ermpz]

Hi.
Sorry for the delay, crazy times.
I can not check the readings while driving. If anyone near port melbourne and have nanocom please let me know.
I changed breather valve. It does respond sharper and does not have so long flat spot when accelerating from stationary. Did cut the old valve to see what's inside. Membrane and spring were in good condition. It was sticking most probably. I was quite happy with the starting at some point but last two days it has been quite lumpy.

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[Ermpz]

If anyone is selling egr bypass kit please let me know. Can be used, as long as it is in good condition.

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