OUCH I broke something

[Bytemrk]

Well I managed to achieve stage 2 of my odd transmission behaviour tonight.

Last Sunday this:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/209479-transmission-jumping-into-neutral.html


Tonight, taking off from a set of lights, gentle up hill, mid way through the intersection >

Loud bang underneath

No drive (In high or low range)

Car won't hold on a hill in Park

Seems I managed to break something properly. :(

So it went home with Land Rover assist and I went home in a taxi...:mad:

More details tomorrow I hope....

[mitchE39]

Sounds expensive... Hope its an easy fix

[Epic pooh]

Hopefully just the nut fell off or some similar stupidity !

[Rich84]

Hopefully just the nut fell off or some similar stupidity !

Hopefully not a nut right in the middle of the trans though... :Thump:

I anticipate LR saying you need a new transmission, whether or not the problem has anything to do with the transmission.

[Epic pooh]

Brake light out = change transmission !

[Pedro_The_Swift]

MY12,, surely its still under warranty??

[Epic pooh]

I'd say so, but warranty doesn't cover time wasted and frustration with misdiagnosis. Hopefully there will be none of that ...

[Bytemrk]

Yep,

Still under warranty.

Situation at the moment is that Land Rover Assist put it a holding yard over night and kindly taxied me home.

The car is currently at ULR waiting for a "technician" to be allocated to it. Obviously their work shop is very busy today, I suspect it will be wait and see until tomorrow.

So far the service has been good.... just frustrating waiting to see if its some thing major or something simple.

Time will tell...:angel:

[rufusking]

Gee I hope they are all LR approved accessories fitted. I'd hate to see another firefoxGC saga unravel.

[d2dave]

If its in warranty I would be hoping for tranny, bad enough that it needs a new one.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Replacement car?:angel:
new D4?:angel:

[Bytemrk]

Replacement car?:angel:
new D4?:angel:

But I like this one!!!

.... well I do when it goes.. :p

[CaptAwsm]

Mmm... does sound like a proper jobs been done :/ good thing it's under warranty?

[Graeme]

Maybe just an isue with the transfer case ratio selector. I recall an occasion when my RRC slipped out of high range whilst under load that caused quite a loud bang - no damage and only needed engaging again but properly this time.

[BMKal]

Maybe just an isue with the transfer case ratio selector. I recall an occasion when my RRC slipped out of high range whilst under load that caused quite a loud bang - no damage and only needed engaging again but properly this time.

Must have been a common thing - my old 2 door RRC used to do this on a fairly regular basis. ;)

(especially after SWMBO had been driving it).

[Bytemrk]

I did test if taking it in and out of low range made any difference.... none unfortunately.

No drive in either.

Still waiting on Diagnosis.:(

[Graeme]

I suspect it was my 2-door because it jumped out of 5th if not held in until drive was taken-up.

[nat_89]

Damn that sucks no good at all fingers crossed its an easy and quick fix for you and you get your rig back asap!!

[Bytemrk]

Well, the rather interesting diagnosis is:


"A broken rear drive shaft" :eek:

I don't know any detail but I'm not sure that I don't now have more questions than answers trying to fit the answer to the symptoms I observed.

But they are the experts and I am definitely not. Hopefully it will make more sense when I pick it up and have more details.

I will apparently have the car back tomorrow evening :)

And for anyone wondering......the daughters 1.8 manual 2002 Astra makes a reasonably crappy replacement for a Disco 4 :p ( But better than the bus.)

[rufusking]

Interesting, I would have thought the centre diff would have locked to some extent and provided some drive to the front wheels.

[winaje]

I'd be just as interested in how it got broken in the first place???

[BobD]

Perhaps the broken drive shaft was the result of the transmission jumping out of gear and back in so that underlying problem might need fixing as well, once the drive shaft is replaced.


Bob

[Bytemrk]

That had crossed my mind Bob.

Lots of questions to ask when I pick it up.... and i'll be watching it very closely afterwards.

[Graeme]

Interesting, I would have thought the centre diff would have locked to some extent and provided some drive to the front wheels.Only in rock crawl and with the front wheels straight ahead.

[Rich84]

Our Magna Steyr transfer cases are basically an open diff with an electronically operated clutch pack to offer various levels of diff locking. I wonder if, when your car's system worked out something had gone quite wrong, it disengaged the transfer case control unit so that it didn't attempt to lock the diff and inevitably cause more damage?

I read somewhere that earlier RR's (early L322 with NV box perhaps??) had a torsen centre diff - these work on a multiplicative principal where (at fully locked) depending on the setup, up to 8 times the torque driven to a slipping wheel (or axle) can be diverted to the other wheel or axle. Usually that's good, but if the slipping axle happens to have no resistance at all (one wheel in the air, for example) the effective torque applied is almost zero. Anything times zero is always zero, so the torque applied to the opposite axle is zero, and you get no drive! :eek: I've had three Audi quattro vehicles that all exhibited this phenomenon where you would get zero drive if you managed to get one wheel in the air, ie entering a particularly acutely angled driveway (my driveway!). Audi mitigated the problem to an extent by using the traction control to brake the offending wheel and restore the torque applied to it, but you'd still get this odd situation where you'd have no drive until the systems worked out what was going on, almost like waiting for an auto trans to kick down a gear.

Wonder how similar your scenario is to this?

What I don't quite have my head around is that you mentioned your trans was 'slipping in and out of gear' for a bit? That doesn't seem consistent with breaking an axle unless for some reason the flange had pulled out of the diff (broken snap ring?) and was just sitting there waiting for the right opportunity to be pulled all the way out... Looking forward to final diagnosis.:eek:

[Redback]

Hi Mark, when you say drive shaft, you mean the shaft from the gearbox to the rear diff??

AND for future reference Mark, select rock crawl and you'll have drive.

Did you have any times where you heard a noise on a tricky bit when out with the group at Lithgow, you may of landed on it or maybe had wheels spinning and then got grip suddenly, do you remember anything like that.

Good to see it's all fixed, must have been a bit of a worry, had you finished your trip??

Baz.

[Epic pooh]

Sounds very odd Mark, I'd speculate as Bob has. Keep us in the loop !

Holden Astra. Awesome ! Haha better than a bike I suppose.

[d2dave]

So how is the centre diff locked in these things?

[Epic pooh]

Elf magik ! The computer decides when and if it is to be locked (in response to slip or in rock crawl mode). It's an electronic variable clutch style jobbie.

[Bytemrk]

Hi Mark, when you say drive shaft, you mean the shaft from the gearbox to the rear diff??

AND for future reference Mark, select rock crawl and you'll have drive.

Did you have any times where you heard a noise on a tricky bit when out with the group at Lithgow, you may of landed on it or maybe had wheels spinning and then got grip suddenly, do you remember anything like that.

Good to see it's all fixed, must have been a bit of a worry, had you finished your trip??

Baz.

At this point Baz, all I know is what the service guy told me.."A broken rear drive shaft"

Not sure which one or anything else. I will certainly find out when I pick it up.

I am still concerned that the drive shaft may be a secondary failure rather than the primary issue, as I can't see how that might have caused the symptoms I experienced 5 days before my tow truck ride. Hopefully I am wrong.

After discussing the initial strange behaviour with my dealer, between the Sunday, when it appeared to slip from drive to neutral and back on several occasions and the Thursday night when it went "bang"... I drove it every day at various speeds up and down hills and along freeways, with no strange noises or behaviour.- I was watching and listening very carefully.

When stuck, I did try low and high range and mess around with terrain response... I couldn't swear whether I tried rock crawl or not, as I was a tad peeved at the time :angel:

Glad I was back in Melbourne before it died... would have been a little ugly in a few of the places I travelled on the way home.

Even on the steepest parts in Lithgow, there was definitely nothing that comes to mind that might have impacted the rear like that - I lifted front wheels gently once or twice....but nothing hash.

Anyway, I plan to have a nice long chat when I pick it up and get as much information as possible as to exactly what broke and what they have replaced.

Stay tuned ...;)

[Bytemrk]

Holden Astra. Awesome ! Haha better than a bike I suppose.

As the daughter is taking great pleasure in reminding me :rolleyes:

[Epic pooh]

At least it would have electric windows, power steering, aircon, airbags, more than a 1 speaker stereo ?!?

My little car has none of those things ... imagine how nice it is to get into my disco from that little old thing ... mmm ... like vinegar and fine wine ...

To put a certain spin on your event, I know how you'll feel when you put your butt back into the Disco seat (including that lingering sense of trepidation after a repair that will last for a few days then fade to be no big deal in the face of the king of cars) ... hope they work it out promptly !

[Graeme]

Our Magna Steyr transfer cases are basically an open diff with an electronically operated clutch pack to offer various levels of diff locking. I wonder if, when your car's system worked out something had gone quite wrong, it disengaged the transfer case control unit so that it didn't attempt to lock the diff and inevitably cause more damage?The lock clutch is normally disengaged but if wheel-slip is detected as allowed to varying degrees according to the TR setting, the clutch will engage. In rock crawl the clutch is pre-loaded as soon as the vehicle starts to move but in other modes the front or rear wheels have to start to spin compared with the other wheels as detected by ABS so the lock clutch would not engage.

[SBD4]

That's bad luck Mark. Hope it all gets sorted out properly and quickly.

Interested to know, if it was the rear drive shaft, I would have expected that there would be some visual evidence when looking on the car, could you see anything? I also expect that there would be quite a racket from under the car if that was the case(broken shaft belting about the place) when any drive was put through.

Do you think it was more likely an axle - like what happened to Baz? His snapped right next to the CV.

[Bytemrk]

No loud clanging and banging... nothing hanging down from the car, so yes.. I suspect they mean an axle rather than the drive shaft to the rear diff.

But the words used today were "broken a rear drive shaft"

I am sure tomorrow will enlighten me more.:D

[Redback]

No loud clanging and banging... nothing hanging down from the car, so yes.. I suspect they mean an axle rather than the drive shaft to the rear diff.

But the words used today were "broken a rear drive shaft"

I am sure tomorrow will enlighten me more.:D

Some do refer to the axle as a drive shaft, so it may well be an axle, but it's the dropping in and out of gear that is strange, although maybe the drive shaft was moving in and out of the gearbox, or even the axle was moving in and out of the hub/CV or diff, did it drop into neutral when you backed off and did the lever move when it happened??

[Bytemrk]

Some do refer to the axle as a drive shaft, so it may well be an axle, but it's the dropping in and out of gear that is strange, although maybe the drive shaft was moving in and out of the gearbox, or even the axle was moving in and out of the hub/CV or diff, did it drop into neutral when you backed off and did the lever move when it happened??

No movement of lever and the dash still displayed drive, so as I mentioned in the previous thread it behaved like it was dropping into neutral and back.. no drive.. engine revving etc. but it is possible that you are right and none of the issue was transmission related at all.

I still struggle to understand how i could drive it from 4 days without incident still.

I'll update you all later today.

[d2dave]

Some do refer to the axle as a drive shaft, so it may well be an axle, but it's the dropping in and out of gear that is strange, although maybe the drive shaft was moving in and out of the gearbox, or even the axle was moving in and out of the hub/CV or diff, did it drop into neutral when you backed off and did the lever move when it happened??

In my spannering days the big piece of hollow pipe that went from the gearbox to the diff was known as a tailshaft. The two solid pieces of steel that run from the diff to the wheels was called an axle.

If these terms were still used there would not be confusion.

[Disco Muppet]

Interested to see what the results of your long conversation are Mark, fingers crossed it's all sorted for you :) :cool:
I'd be wanting something in writing myself...

[jon3950]

For independent suspension, the correct terminology is driveshaft rather than axle, for the shaft which runs from the differential to the hub.

An axle is a shaft upon which a wheel rotates. On independent suspension, this is only applys to the small bit of shaft after the cv running through the hub. The shaft from the diff to the hub is only supplying drive.

A bit of pedantry, but if you think of it this way it makes sense.

Cheers,
Jon

[Redback]

In my spannering days the big piece of hollow pipe that went from the gearbox to the diff was known as a tailshaft. The two solid pieces of steel that run from the diff to the wheels was called an axle.

If these terms were still used there would not be confusion.

Yes and do know this, but as Jon says here, independant vehicles axle is refered to as the drive shaft and also a tailshft is too, more so in the USA I think.

Baz.

[shanegtr]

Driveshafts can also be known as half shafts.......

[Redback]

Driveshafts can also be known as half shafts.......


Hey buggar off, we're confused enough:p

[BMKal]

Driveshafts can also be known as half shafts.......


Hey buggar off, we're confused enough:p

I've only ever heard of axles referred to as half shafts. ;)

There you go Baz ...................... just thought I'd add to the confusion. :p

[Bytemrk]

Well it's official guys..... the printed Land Rover Tax Invoice describes the part as a "LH Rear Driveshaft".

And this one was a bargain at $0.00 Plus GST .... oh, and 4 1/2 days in a workshop

So got it back, seems to be fine, snapped the drive shaft near the hub end.

I am still suspicious that this is a secondary failure, so I am driving a bit cautiously and watching and listening closely. I'll be very glad to be proven wrong :p

It's booked in for it's next service in 2 weeks time anyway and most of next week it will sit in an airport car park, so I'll just monitor and see what surfaces.

The other plus is the car is nice and clean again. ;)

Hopefully I'll report back in a blissfully uneventful couple of weeks. :angel:


P.S.... The very helpful service technician kindly pointed out... "Oh this is really unusual.. they don't normally break shafts - usually it's the diff" :eek:... err thanks.... I think.

[Redback]

Exactly where mine broke, at the CV, only mine was the RH side, I have a funny feeling there may be a weak batch of axles out there, as my D4 has the E-Diff and supposedly stronger axles, from memory you have the E-Diff too Mark??

See I'm not the only one:eek:

Baz.

[Epic pooh]

Is your shift lever behaviour back to normal mark ?

[Bytemrk]

No mine doesn't have an e-Diff, so I thought they were meant to be different axles..?? strange.

The lever never moved with shift.. it just behaviour that I thought was trans dropping into Neutral ( I guess it may not have been).... I'm just still struggling to reconcile Sundays behaviour with a broken shaft 4 days later.

It might be a little paranoia, but I still think the shift behaviour of the trans is not 100% normal.... so that's up for discussion at service after I monitor it for a little longer. At times when you slow and then take off, but don't totally stop... , it feels like it doesn't drop back far enough. Like if you drove a manual through a round-about, almost stopped, but only went back to 3rd for example.

Anyway... we will see.

[Epic pooh]

There's that lingering trepidation I mentioned earlier ... an old friend of mine too ;)

In the earlier thread you mentioned that pressing on the lever made it feel like it was dropping into N (IIRC) - is that behaviour gone ?

And that's a hilarious comment from the service guy about diffs ... so true, so sad ...

[SBD4]

Exactly where mine broke, at the CV, only mine was the RH side, I have a funny feeling there may be a weak batch of axles out there, as my D4 has the E-Diff and supposedly stronger axles, from memory you have the E-Diff too Mark??

See I'm not the only one:eek:

Baz.

No mine doesn't have an e-Diff, so I thought they were meant to be different axles..?? strange.

The lever never moved with shift.. it just behaviour that I thought was trans dropping into Neutral ( I guess it may not have been).... I'm just still struggling to reconcile Sundays behaviour with a broken shaft 4 days later.

It might be a little paranoia, but I still think the shift behaviour of the trans is not 100% normal.... so that's up for discussion at service after I monitor it for a little longer. At times when you slow and then take off, but don't totally stop... , it feels like it doesn't drop back far enough. Like if you drove a manual through a round-about, almost stopped, but only went back to 3rd for example.

Anyway... we will see.

The parts are different for ediff vs open diff assemblies. It's interesting that the shaft assemblies vary very little in price so maybe there is no up-rating in strength between the two and it's more about slightly different fitting, different number of splines, cv strength etc. i wouldn't mind betting the shafts them selves are the same.

Mark, regarding the shift pattern of the box, the dealer will most likely just reset the box so it re-learns your driving style.

Did you get to see the broken bit? It would interesting to see if there was evidence of an old fracture/weakness at the break. Baz showed me his and it was a really clean break very close to the CV where the shaft had been machined to a narrower diameter.

[d2dave]

I am still suspicious that this is a secondary failure, so I am driving a bit cautiously and watching and listening closely. I'll be very glad to be proven wrong :p

It's booked in for it's next service in 2 weeks time anyway and most of next week it will sit in an airport car park, so I'll just monitor and see what surfaces.


Mark. If you are concerned about it sitting around at the airport and not getting a good run looking for the possible cause I have a suggestion.

I have a few spare days next week, don't live too far away, so you could leave it with me to add a few Ks.

I could even take it up into the high country and really give it a work over to see if any other faults show up.

Let me know if you are interested in my generous offer.:)

[Bytemrk]

Always knew you were a wonderfully generous bloke Dave .... :D

[winaje]

Mark. If you are concerned about it sitting around at the airport and not getting a good run looking for the possible cause I have a suggestion.

I have a few spare days next week, don't live too far away, so you could leave it with me to add a few Ks.

I could even take it up into the high country and really give it a work over to see if any other faults show up.

Let me know if you are interested in my generous offer.:)

OI!!! I live 10 minutes from him, and will even drop him off at the airport... :twisted:

[d2dave]

OI!!! I live 10 minutes from him, and will even drop him off at the airport... :twisted:

I was first.:tease:

[Bytemrk]

Hehe...

Looks like you two have competition..... the 18 year old daughter, whose car I stole for a couple of days, just volunteered to "look after it for me".. while I'm in Brisbane :angel:

[Disco Muppet]

Can't trust any of them mate, I'll do the decent thing and look after it. I'm trustworthy, just ask TerryO

Sent from my GT-S7500T using AULRO mobile app

[Bytemrk]

Did you get to see the broken bit? It would interesting to see if there was evidence of an old fracture/weakness at the break. Baz showed me his and it was a really clean break very close to the CV where the shaft had been machined to a narrower diameter.

No I didn't, but I was told there was no sign of any previous crack, that it was a clean break near the hub end of the shaft.

I'm just glad it turned out to be something relatively simple, without any damage to my wallet ;)

I will be sure to keep exploring and find anything more sinister BEFORE I'm out of warranty :angel: