D4 Reliability

[CraigA]

I have had my d4 sd3.0 for 2.5 years and 70,000km. So far it has left me standing on the side of the road 3 times. Twice with electrical problems, and recently a rear wheel bearing.

My problem is this. I bought this car for the grand tour with my Ultimate camper trailer but how can i trust it. I really don't want to be left on the side of the road in Central Oz. Have I got a lemon or is this a common experience??

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!

[101RRS]

A wheel bearing can happen to anyone or any vehicle.

Two electrical issues hardly makes for a lemon - what were the issues? Did you do a restart or did you do a hard reset? How did you get left on the side of the road - very few things will actually completely stop you.

Garry

[Pedro_The_Swift]

No.
No you cant trust it.
sell it to me.;)

[AnD3rew]

Toyotas and Nissans also regularly leave their driver standing by the road but everyone always says "that's unusual you must have been unlucky". But when a Land Rover does it everyone says, " well what do you expect its a Land Rover"

A mate of mine had to pay about $17,000 to have his two year old Patrol recovered from the Canning Stock route when his clutch failed a few years ago.

[nat_89]

I certainly wouldn't be 2 worried electrical problems happening just twice over 70000kms is pretty good and as said a wheel bearing well that's trivial as it can happen to any car at any time!! You can't live your life by ifs and buts over 2 small problems.

[Redback]

Yeah I worry every day about it, I went into a cold sweat yesterday, we were going to the shops and the missus said, lets take the Disco, oh no I thought, we could be stranded and at Menai of all places.

I knew we should have bought that Toyota, the piece of mind we could be having:dbcry:

Baz.

[CraigA]

A wheel bearing can happen to anyone or any vehicle.

Two electrical issues hardly makes for a lemon - what were the issues? Did you do a restart or did you do a hard reset? How did you get left on the side of the road - very few things will actually completely stop you.

Garry

Thanks for your replies guys.
Actually, the mechanic I use for non lr stuff implied that 70,000km old cars dont do wheel bearings. But turned out it did .. and a 100km tilt tray fixed it.
As for the electrics, one "Engine System Failure" .. another 100km tilt tray having been advised not to drive it, even in limp mode.
First electrical .. limp mode for 150km (to dealer) with every error code known to mankind flashing at me. Turned out to be a failed battery (@20,000km). Strangely, no error saying "battery voltage low - ignore other error codes".

Fact remains, Land Rovers don't score highly on reliability. Last of all manufacturers in US.
I don't think this is helped by things like LR Aust apparently not recalling the "engine system failure" fault for the software update fix because it doesn't happen to all vehicles.

It would seem that Discoverys have perhaps got more reliable with each successive model but started from a pretty low base. It also seems something that owners are loathe to discuss despite this being the ideal forum to collect data and feed it back to LR to assist in rectification work.

At least these days you can sit on the side of the road and google the fault and know you are not alone.

[Rich84]

Mechanics say a lot of things. It's true, you'd hope to get more than 70K out of wheel bearings, but I know many much smaller lighter cars that have done wheel bearings with under 50K. Golf IVs and any car based on it (Audi a3, TT, beetle, etc) are one that are notorious for wheel bearings.

Have the two rear suspension uprights from my Audi A4 in the boot of my RRS at the moment because both rear wheel bearings failed simultaneously... Thankfully they didn't strand the car and just made a loud howling noise.

205K on my RRS 2.7 now and it has done many many long trips - the alternator is the only thing that seriously went wrong with it, and thankfully that was around town. If it failed in Central QLD around Aramac or somewhere like that, that would potentially have been an issue, but it didn't. I did have an alternator fail on a Nissan 300km from Adelaide and had to get my brother to drive me up another one.

The bottom line is, things go wrong with cars - no matter how old or new they are, there's no truly reliable car. The good news is, you fix them, then something else will go wrong, and you can stop worrying about the first thing. That's why I always tell people to just get the car they want and not worry about it!

Buy a Toyota if it will make you feel better spending money fixing that instead of the LR, but after driving the D4 I don't see how you could be satisfied with an LC or a Prado...

[BMKal]

It also seems something that owners are loathe to discuss despite this being the ideal forum to collect data and feed it back to LR to assist in rectification work.

At least these days you can sit on the side of the road and google the fault and know you are not alone.

You have obviously only had a very brief look through this forum. ;)

I don't think I have seen another forum where people more openly discuss the problems that they have encountered with their vehicles.

So far, touch wood, I haven't had any problems worth mentioning with my D4 - but I am confident that if I do, there will be a thread on it in here somewhere discussing the problem and how to fix it.

I have owned way more Toyotas than I have Landrovers - and have experienced far more concerning problems with some of the Toyotas than I have ever seen in the Landrovers. Some of the Toyotas gave me trouble free motoring though.

You need to find a new mechanic - one who knows his stuff and doesn't just pass on "anecdotal" evidence. ;) I have seen wheel bearings fail with way less km on them than you have experienced - and strangely enough - these were on Toyotas.

[101RRS]

As for the electrics, one "Engine System Failure" .. another 100km tilt tray having been advised not to drive it, even in limp mode.


"Engine System Failure" - normally a switch off and switch back clears them - can be done while still driving.

Did the check engine light come on?? Do you know how to reset the computers? Do you know how to do a Hard Reset? There is nothing wrong with driving in limp mode - that is what it is for - the ECU reverts to default settings and does not use input from some or all its sensors. It might be slow going but you go.

Sorry but you have unrealistic expectations of your vehicle - get any modern vehicle as a replacement and I can assure you you will have more stops by the roadside than you have had in your landie.

In my immediate family we have a new 200 series, a 7? V8 diesel cruiser, and a new Hilux - they all have issues.

garry

[Tombie]

Whilst stuck google Prado / Toyota issues too :twisted::angel:


Failing Wheel bearings


Started out with a slight rear wheel bearing noise, took it to toyota they confirmed wheel bearing and replaced both rear wheel bearings.

All good for about 1 week then the rear right went, took it back and they said it may have been faulty bearing so they replaced it.

2 weeks later and its making the noise again rear left, they have said that it may have been damaged during installation to drop it back in and they'll replace. dropped in they had for 1 week and called to say that they do not have the correct tool to remove/install the bearings. This is when my jaw dropped. I paid $1400 for parts and labour for both rears to be replaced originally... who knows what they did. and if they are honest does anyone know what could cause these to keep failing... talking like 500-1000kms. The vehicle has 150,000 on the clock.

they said they took off all the axles, CV's etc. and checked they were all square and balanced which all checked ok..could this noise be something else that is being disturbed then disappears for about 1week and returns? The bearings from what I'm told are worn so is definitely them.

I have no clue where to go from here.. at least they are doing the work under warranty but out of the last 5 weeks they've had my car 3 weeks.

Any ideas





Just having some problems with my 03 diesel prado. After 114000km's, car started getting hot and dumping all the coolant out of radiator into overflow. Have sorted out the heat problem but the car still losing all the coolant. Dealer wants to look at cracked head possibility and that worries me as I thought that with only 114000km's we wouldn't be looking at these problems...... Has any one had any similar problem?


The transmission has been worrying me for a few months. Everytime we tow with the prado, anything bigger than a box trailer, we get transmission fluid somehow ending up in the engine bay . Toyota have checked it time and time again but said the fluid levels are right so they don't know either. Also the auto taking too long to change gear just when driving it everyday. Just really revs out before gear change. Even toyota tech guy picked up on this when he test drove it. Just don't know whats going on with this car and being a chick, it's hard to get answers from anyone which is why I have turned to this chat site. Going back to the head issue, should the prado be doing this after 114000 km's???


Slightly different scenario, But I thought at 58,000k's I would be fine with my Prado but The engine Blew up and needs to be replaced. Its hard to accept when you have forked out almost $60,000 when purchased new. Toyota Australia were not helpful at all as well as the dealership (Anthony Smith Toyota) especially the issue I had with them and leaking oil over my driveway first drive back from the dealership after service. Full details are posted on my thread listed 58,000kl's Blown engine. In a nut shell I will never trust dealerships with my vehicle, I will find a good local mechanic who can look at my vehicle from a customers point of view rather than putting you in the production line at the dealership to cash in at the end. I will be taking my story to the highest level possible Nationally as well as Toyota in Japan etc WHY Japan because Toyota Australia were not interested. keep in touch on my thread for progress.


I have a 2013 Manual Prado and as long as I go forward it is great. The issue is when I reverse. I can't even reverse my 6x4 box trailer into my driveway up over the gutter without the clutch burning. I have been told to put it in low 4wd every time I reverse which I understand will stop theproblem, but the irony is that my dads Isuzu can back his 2 tonne caravan in standard without an issue.


Turbo failed under 15,000 kms, solenoid went. Number 3 injector failed. Common problem in the D4Ds, the dreaded injector rattle. Speaking of rattles, rattle in the back seat that has not been resolved by Toyota. Bad mudflap design leading to paint work damage if they are not changed when the vehicle is new. I sold my 150 series before I had supply pump problems. My opinion of cause and yes I used all the right fuels (BP), Penrite GS oil and gen. Toyota filters.


Does anyone have the same problem. Toyota don't know how to resolve it.
Alarm will go off for no reason and start the air on,hazard lights headlights and other crazy antics.
Has happened 4times travelling around Australia and none the wiser.
Takes about 4 hours for it to return to normal.
Hope someone can enlighten me.

[lpj]

You are right to be concerned. Being stuck on the side of the road is a pain but is not exclusive to LR's. Maybe you will get a better "feeling" of reliability with Toyota, and if that makes you happier, then maybe that's the way to go.

A good mate of mine has a 200 series that he bought specifically for towing. He told me that he felt a pang of regret the moment he drove out of the dealer, having come from other more refined "SUV" style Euro's. What he loves is the feeling of reliability. He feels confident that it can and will take him anywhere.

I'm happy for him- however- he rarely drives the car except on trips. He just doesn't enjoy driving it. It's big and feels like a truck. It's a chore to drive. The upside is its holding its value well. Low K's single owner etc etc. The downside is HE HATES DRIVING IT.

Irrespective, if you are going to do overland travel in Australia- no matter what car you drive, you will need to be prepared.

A) get a fault reading tool
B) learn as much as you can about the car- this forum being excellent for that.
C) many "faults" are not really faults. Low battery can cause issue as you have described. As can a dodgy brake switch or incorrect bulbs.
D) take spares of parts that are likely to let you down

LPJ

[jon3950]

It would seem that Discoverys have perhaps got more reliable with each successive model but started from a pretty low base. It also seems something that owners are loathe to discuss despite this being the ideal forum to collect data and feed it back to LR to assist in rectification work.


So they say.

I'm on my 4th Discovery, having owned them for 18 years. In that time I've travelled about half a million kms over a fair chunk of the country. In that time I've had a few problems, but I have only been left standing by the side of the road twice. Once in the D3 was my fault - I broke it. The other time was a fuel pump packing up in my D1.

Just lucky I guess.

Cheers,
Jon

[cripesamighty]

Hi Craig,

If you get a chance, have a look at Green Oval Experience Land Rover training, Range Rover modifcation (http://www.greenovalexperience.com/). It is Gordon from this forum (gghaggis) and he runs classroom and offroad based training courses for late model (post 2005) Land Rovers.

If you can attend a course (highly recommended) you will get a better insight into the newer Landy's (T5 platform) and their quirks and capabilities. It will also give you peace of mind as you will get good info on most of the common problems and how to fix them. Also, on which spares and fault reading tools are applicable to you. Good luck with it, and enjoy your car.

Safe motoring,

Cripesamighty

PS, if you can't attend a course, buy his GOE information booklet as it covers most of the classroom based stuff and is very handy to have with you offroad too.

[BobD]

I agree that the GOE Information Booklet is the best source of knowledge on how to prepare a D3/D4 for remote travel and keep it reliable. Also the FAQ section on the forum is an excellent source of knowledge about everything to do with the car. Before I even bought my D4, which I use extensively for very remote travels on and off road, I carefully read and understood everything in the FAQ to make sure that the car was for me.


Bob

[nat_89]

Working in the mining industry and living in a mining town where every car is either hilux prado or 200 series i do get sick of the oh you should have bought a toyota and all the other crap people carry on about oh i had a mate who's a mechanic and reckons LRs are **** always breaking down. But in the end you just go whatever and know you have the best car and i always tell them "everyone loves the discovery just not everyone knows yet"

[scarry]

So they say.

I'm on my 4th Discovery, having owned them for 18 years. In that time I've travelled about half a million kms over a fair chunk of the country. In that time I've had a few problems, but I have only been left standing by the side of the road twice. Once in the D3 was my fault - I broke it. The other time was a fuel pump packing up in my D1.

Just lucky I guess.

Cheers,
Jon

Exactly,i have had Discos over the last 15 yrs,and never been left stranded on the side of the road,ever.
The only show stoppers were flat tyres(easy fix),once i changed over to LT's,never changed a tyre again.
In fact the D2a was one of the best vehicles i have ever had.

The D4 has been good as well,had a couple of little issues,but nothing near a show stopper.

We recently had to replace a diff in one of our Tojo work vans.It was just out of warranty,the dealer was not interested,and their comment was those vans never do diffs.Well i happened to come across a few reviews on them on the internet, and diffs were one of the most common issues.

[Basil135]

Must admit that I do love my D4.

Had a concerning issue the other day though.

Jumped in after SWMBO had driven it, and as soon as I started it, a big warning came up on the dash. :eek:

Wondering what she had done to my car, I had a closer look.

"Washer Fluid Low"

I mean, with the amount of rain that we have since I bought it 12 months ago, you would have thought that it would have filled itself up. :censored:

I was so stressed by this apparent failure of my beloved D4, that I went back inside, and grabbed the keys to the Prius. :o







Disclaimer: I have never owned, nor driven a Prius, and have no intentions of doing either. No Land Rovers were harmed in the writing of this story.

[CraigA]

Interesting stuff. Thanks again.

Personally, I have no desire to drive a LC nor a Prado coz I just don't like them. The D4 seems to me a much better drive and I don't have to put up with the LCs fuel consumption nor the Prados gutlessness among there other "failings". However, if we are going to be non-anecdotal about this, Land Rovers remain the least reliable car on the road (US figures 2012) and for a luxury brand, that's appalling. To put it in perspective, LRs are less reliable than a Great Wall that costs about 1/4 as much.

Given everything that's been said here, maybe I really do have a Monday morning build car and I should sell it and try again. Who knows?

[mowog]

I had the low battery every fault code problem. I just stopped and started the D4 again and it was ok. Reported it at the next service that's when I was told it was a battery.

[Graeme]

I'll not surrender my D4 if there is any way to keep driving it and have needed to do so a couple of times with dead suspension compressors and 'restricted performance' incidents. A diagnostic tool to read and clear fault codes and a background of having maintained bikes and vehicles for over 50 years has been sufficient so far.

[Epic pooh]

I'm with you Graeme. I'll be driving mine for many years to come and mine is one of the first and allegedly most bug prone. I'm not jinxing myself with any claims but its a dependable vehicle. In my (3 car) family it is regarded as the king of motor vehicles and the only one that the family is happy in when road conditions turn ugly (rain, snow, hail, shine, city traffic, twisty mountain passes, corrugated dirt roads ... its all the same to the Disco).

I would say, having had several 'yotas, LR's and many other marques, that Landies are very much (my opinion of course) a car persons car. They require, at times, a level of mechanical sympathy and understanding (or a very fat wallet) beyond a lot of other lesser vehicles.

Anyway, Craig, I would say if you're generally happy with it, persevere with it - your issues don't sound a big deal to me.

Also worth noting that reliability surveys are number of returns for rectification of issues - not actually vehicles crapping themselves on the side of the road. I've found it easier to get LR to admit and fix issues than pretty much any other manufacturer (particularly the Jap ones).

On another note, this is a thread that could really go places ... :nazilock:

[Tombie]

Epic hit it on the head...
Those surveys are a combination of too many variables.

For instance a Blown bulb is included.

A Great Wall is 4 Fosters cans glued together and tied with string.

[BMKal]

Epic hit it on the head...
Those surveys are a combination of too many variables.

For instance a Blown bulb is included.

A Great Wall is 4 Fosters cans glued together and tied with string.

Not quite ...........................

The one with the string (and a Cummins engine :Rolling: is the Foton Tunland).

The Great Wall doesn't have the string - just the glue. ;)

Interestingly, I was driving out Albany Hwy in Perth on the weekend and spotted the Foton Tunland dealership. The business name is proclaimed in big signage - "Perth Motorsport". I'm still trying to figure out which part of the Tunland is "sporty". :eek:

[Epic pooh]

What the heck is a foton tunland ? Sounds like a kind of mattress or something.

[101RRS]

Land Rovers remain the least reliable car on the road (US figures 2012) and for a luxury brand, that's appalling.

I dont place any relevance on US figures - what are the Aussie figures??

[jon3950]

Epic hit it on the head...
Those surveys are a combination of too many variables.

Plus they're American...

The thing is all modern vehicles are complex pieces of machinery. Things will fail on them from time to time. This is true for all makes.

If you are going to operate any vehicle in an area where there is limited support, you need to have an understanding of it's systems and some basic troubleshooting skills. For those of us brought up on vehicles whose most complex piece of electrical equipment was a set of points, this requires a different mind-set.

Most "electrical faults" are not showstoppers. With a bit of knowledge and ideally a fault-code reader you can easily get yourself going again. I had a few in the D3, but they never stopped me. If I can do it anyone can.

Of course you can be unlucky, but most of the failures you see in the bush are due to the drivers not operating their vehicles sympathetically. I include myself in that. The one showstopper I had in the D3 was caused by me being impatient.

If you like your D4 then keep it. There is no reason why it won't take you around the country.

Cheers,
Jon

[ytt105]

I drove into Farina SA a couple of years ago, in my P38, and passed a tip truck with a RRS on the back heading out.

The next morning I got talking to a bloke who was telling me that it was his mate who had had to get his RRS taken back to Adelaide because he couldn't get the handbrake off.

I asked if they had tried to release it using the emergency release under the transmission tunnel.

He knew nothing about it and was embarrassed when I told him it was all illustrated in the drivers handbook.

When all else fails.....

A bit funny, but all the way to Adelaide every Tojo driver would be saying "Stupid Landrover" instead of stupid driver.

[Tombie]

Maralinga, Emu etc in the D4...

No spares - just hit the tracks...

Was a marvellous trip, and the vehicle faultless...

Why worry? Thats what Premium assist is for :cool: and the only times I've ever needed recovery was a bloody hard animal strike disabling the cooling system in my TD5 Disco

[Epic pooh]

Why worry? Thats what Premium assist is for :cool:


My attitude exactly.

[cripesamighty]

The other thing with this US survey is that it is (from memory) a rolling average (score-wise), so newer more reliable cars will not alter any bad survey results for quite a while. Other surveys I have seen show a much different result with late model Land Rovers fairing much better in the rankings. I'm sure it has been mentioned here before somewhere.

[voltron]

Irrespective, if you are going to do overland travel in Australia- no matter what car you drive, you will need to be prepared.

A) get a fault reading tool
B) learn as much as you can about the car- this forum being excellent for that.
C) many "faults" are not really faults. Low battery can cause issue as you have described. As can a dodgy brake switch or incorrect bulbs.
D) take spares of parts that are likely to let you down

LPJ

Probably the best advice you could give anyone who plans on touring their vehicle. Noted thanks.

Cheers.

[CraigA]

The positive side of Wheel Bearings ..
We did the rear bearing in Armidale (NSW) and got tilt-trayed to Tamworth without the caravan (tilt tray couldn't take a Treg hitch). We stayed over night in the local "retreat" while the bearing came from Melbourne. Next morning, the lady from the retreat lent us her car so we could go to Armidale to recover the caravan and continue south once the bearing was replaced.
Every now and then you meet someone who is priceless and precious.
Thanks again and again to Felicity.

Maybe there are positives in unreliability.

[Dirty3]

The D4 seems to me a much better drive and I don't have to put up with the LCs fuel consumption nor the Prados gutlessness among there other "failings". However, if we are going to be non-anecdotal about this, Land Rovers remain the least reliable car on the road (US figures 2012) and for a luxury brand, that's appalling. To put it in perspective, LRs are less reliable than a Great Wall that costs about 1/4 as much.

I think Craig you read the JD Powers list on unreliability, i'd take it with a grain of salt IMHO.
And a Great Wall - mate c'mon, i know a couple of blokes that have them and they are happy because they were cheap, but they also comment that they are a piece of crap. But because they are so cheap, they love them.

Maybe time to go and buy the Tojo and then you can get on with things. I'm up to my 3rd Disco - series 1,2 & 3. All bloody great vehicles. A Prado in between was good too but Toyota let me down. So back to LR.

[CraigA]

I think Craig you read the JD Powers list on unreliability, i'd take it with a grain of salt IMHO.
And a Great Wall - mate c'mon, i know a couple of blokes that have them and they are happy because they were cheap, but they also comment that they are a piece of crap. But because they are so cheap, they love them.

Hi Dirty3
Actually I've read a fair few reliability surveys and all of them put LR at or near the bottom of the pecking order. Even the UK ones (with the exception of Clarkson of course)!
Perhaps you can argue that they don't sell many diesels in the US but if you look at the areas of failure, the engine generally represents only about 20% of the failures.

I have driven a Great Wall as a service loaner and it was not a pleasant experience. I reiterate, the Discovery is supposed to be a luxury vehicle and has a luxury price, the Great Wall does not. I would presume that the LR uses better materials, better engineering, more evolved design, and better construction techniques than a Great Wall. Why then do LRs inhabit the bottom of the reliability surveys?

[nat_89]

Hi Dirty3
Actually I've read a fair few reliability surveys and all of them put LR at or near the bottom of the pecking order. Even the UK ones (with the exception of Clarkson of course)!
Perhaps you can argue that they don't sell many diesels in the US but if you look at the areas of failure, the engine generally represents only about 20% of the failures.

I have driven a Great Wall as a service loaner and it was not a pleasant experience. I reiterate, the Discovery is supposed to be a luxury vehicle and has a luxury price, the Great Wall does not. I would presume that the LR uses better materials, better engineering, more evolved design, and better construction techniques than a Great Wall. Why then do LRs inhabit the bottom of the reliability surveys?

I had a great wall once as a loaner to my god what a piece of crap i mean i know i could buy 5 of them for the price of a new D4 HSE but i think ill stick with my D4 thanks haha god it was bad.

[Ean Austral]

I remember when the bush tucker man was plugging the D2 HDC and remember thinking how cool that was.


Is it possible that L/R has been at the forefront of technology in 4x4 vehicles and that the other makes have refined them with a bigger budget.




Cheers Ean

[Rich84]

Hi Dirty3
Actually I've read a fair few reliability surveys and all of them put LR at or near the bottom of the pecking order. Even the UK ones (with the exception of Clarkson of course)!
Perhaps you can argue that they don't sell many diesels in the US but if you look at the areas of failure, the engine generally represents only about 20% of the failures.

I have driven a Great Wall as a service loaner and it was not a pleasant experience. I reiterate, the Discovery is supposed to be a luxury vehicle and has a luxury price, the Great Wall does not. I would presume that the LR uses better materials, better engineering, more evolved design, and better construction techniques than a Great Wall. Why then do LRs inhabit the bottom of the reliability surveys?

But you look at the UK ownership satisfaction survey 2013 and Jaguar is no. 1 with LR coming in at no. 6, ahead of Toyota.

So how can JLR do so apparently poorly in reliability surveys, yet so well in Satisfaction surveys?

In order for a company that manufactures premium off-road vehicles like LR to survive, the cars they build have to get noticed - you have to admit, they do. You bought one.

LR build the most enjoyable overlanders you can get, bar none! It is their niche. No other vehicle can claim to be as good on and off road as a modern Discovery or Range Rover. Look at what you get:
-cabin luxury that puts many German luxo sedans (and any jap car) to shame with loads of room and 7 seats for the disco. Kick ass sound is standard!
-Strong and refined engines and transmissions.
-Excellent handling and ride quality, on and off the road
-truly a 'go anywhere' vehicle straight out of the box
-Looks great out front of a country pub or a city art gallery
-Always a technological masterpiece, if that appeals to you (it does appeal to me)

At what cost though? In short, you cannot achieve all that without some pretty serious innovating. You need a car that can raise high enough to tackle serious obstacles, yet can sit low enough to ride and handle well on the road. You need engines that can generate peak torque at low RPM, yet also remain tractable at higher RPMs, all the while out-performing the competition in fuel economy and refinement.

The truth is, Toyota can't build that car - they tried it with the LC200 and that was their best effort - and people still criticised it because they didn't get the engine right, or because they thought it was 'too technical', yet it has nowhere near the level of tech that a modern LR has. Nissan's Y62 has suffered a similar fate - they couldn't develop a worthy enough diesel engine to put in it, so they put an enormous 5.6L V8 petrol in it. Both these cars are worthy competitors to the LR off the road, but the suspension technology they use is still decades behind LR's, so they both feel like trucks on the road, and neither is any kind of a match for the elegance in interior and exterior you get with the LR.

Most of the time our LRs deliver what they promise. Simple technology such as may be found in the Asian stuff may be more reliable - noone is arguing that - it is more mature technology. This is the point you seem to miss again and again and again. Simple is generally more reliable. You don't need sensors to monitor everything, you don't need controllers for each function of the vehicle that are, as any integrated circuit is, sensitive to voltage. You don't need a transmission with 5 seperate clutch packs, three epicyclics and a converter that locks in any gear, to drive the car smoothly, because all you have is a basic manual or auto trans. You don't need clutch packs in your centre or rear diff to ensure it locks up progressively when demanded to. Every one of those things can go wrong. Complex/Cutting edge = more variables to go awry. You didn't think your LR used magic to do all those things, did you?

Simple also means you miss out on the advantages the modern tech has to offer. What other company uses high tech stuff like adaptive air suspension on the vast majority of their vehicles, and so successfully? The majority of modern LRs are extremely complex vehicles - in terms of average complexity of vehicles sold, very few if any car makers can compare with LR - just look at one aspect - the powertrain - a high tech engine, state of the art transmission, dual range locking transfer case, two diffs and six driveshafts. That is before we go into the controllers for every function of the vehicle. Compare that to a typical modern Mazda or Toyota or Hyundai which has a rudimentary engine, rudimentary transaxle and two driveshafts.

Craig, comparing Great Wall and Land Rover over and over again does not make any sense. It is a stupid comparison. On one hand you have LR, a company that manufactures the world's most complex mass production vehicles. It is the world's most innovative off-road car company. On the other hand, Great Wall, who copies everyone else's successful designs then builds them badly, and on average have some of the most simple tech vehicles around.

You made the choice to buy the LR, you seem to have made the wrong choice. You should've bought a high tech, capable four wheel drive that seems to have no weaknesses at all, but one that also never has any problems ever. Let us all know when you find that car! Realistically, you had a rear wheel bearing let go, which was bad luck to be honest, but it happens. The battery is also bad luck. I had and have the same battery and wheel bearings as you - the batt was five years old when I replaced it - and I only replaced it because a mate broke the terminal off it; and the wheel bearings are still going strong at 205K. The electrical problems you didn't have to stop for, but you might not have known that. So three problems in 70K and you think that's unreliable? Have you owned many cars before this??

Craig, you have been given good advice here. None of us wants to waste our time trying to convince you that you have a good car when you apparently have already made up your mind. Reliability is a mindset. Accept that modern high tech cars can sometimes have issues, or sell it and take the plunge and buy that Great Wall - if you have only three issues with it in 70K I would genuinely fall out of my hammock! That's if you can stand to drive it that long.

[stray dingo]

My experience isn't so much the reliablity of any vehicle, but what can you do when something does go wrong.

I took the Merinee Loop road a couple of months back and hit a pot hole. The Copper Zeon was drivable, but the side wall bulged meaning I needed to get it replaced before hitting Oodnatdatta 10 days later. I had to wait a week to get the tyre express delivered to Alice Springs. Not just the Zeon, but any 255/55/19.

Then leaving Alice, the car kept overheating all the way to Marla. I couldn't risk taking it down the Ood (which I'm still sulking about) incase it got worse. (Turns out it was a cracked turbo pipe which would've caused a problem in any other vehicle too)

But for me it comes down to - where can I get support? Any of the larger brands are more likely to have a support network, or a semi-capable mech who can look at the vehicle, but LR are too far apart, and mechs are scared of them. Yes there is their roadside support, and I've used them for a battery replacement in the first 12 months, but if I broke down on the Ood, how long before they come to my rescue? A few days I am led to believe.

I'm not saying I'll be getting rid of my great D4 because of it, but I do have that concern in the back of my head when traveling a little more remotely....

[Tombie]

My experience isn't so much the reliablity of any vehicle, but what can you do when something does go wrong.

I took the Merinee Loop road a couple of months back and hit a pot hole. The Copper Zeon was drivable, but the side wall bulged meaning I needed to get it replaced before hitting Oodnatdatta 10 days later. I had to wait a week to get the tyre express delivered to Alice Springs. Not just the Zeon, but any 255/55/19.

Then leaving Alice, the car kept overheating all the way to Marla. I couldn't risk taking it down the Ood (which I'm still sulking about) incase it got worse. (Turns out it was a cracked turbo pipe which would've caused a problem in any other vehicle too)

But for me it comes down to - where can I get support? Any of the larger brands are more likely to have a support network, or a semi-capable mech who can look at the vehicle, but LR are too far apart, and mechs are scared of them. Yes there is their roadside support, and I've used them for a battery replacement in the first 12 months, but if I broke down on the Ood, how long before they come to my rescue? A few days I am led to believe.

I'm not saying I'll be getting rid of my great D4 because of it, but I do have that concern in the back of my head when travelling a little more remotely....

Would you like the good news? Well there isn't any as far as this is involved!

We run a fleet of Toyotas at the remote mine site up north. Like any vehicle they have their issues and need repair or replacement of parts.

Try engine parts taking 4 weeks from Japan, or a Diff assembly that took 8 weeks because 'none in country'

Or a fuel pump problem which took 10 days to sort.. Down to no stock of air filters, hubs, brake rotors flown in from Melbourne. The list goes on.

Believing that the network holds stock for these other brands of vehicles is just folly. The days of a Z9 filter and $20 worth of wheel bearings is long gone.

LR often get parts in quicker or just as quick as the other brands.

I've even seen it where we destroyed 2 tyres and had to get them shipped from Sydney as the nearby dealers (tyre and Toyota) didn't have any in stock.

Mechs who wont look at a vehicle because of a brand are just hack mechanics - often little more than parts pullers... And most outback mechanics dont have the tools to diagnose ANY brand of modern vehicle.
Even a standard IID tool will read a LR ECU.

[101RRS]

But for me it comes down to - where can I get support? Any of the larger brands are more likely to have a support network, or a semi-capable mech who can look at the vehicle,

Maybe an old 80 series but not a 200 series - have an issue in the outback and then on a tilt tray to the nearest capital city - NSW, Vic and SE Qld would be the exception.

Garry

[Redback]

Maybe an old 80 series but not a 200 series - have an issue in the outback and then on a tilt tray to the nearest capital city - NSW, Vic and SE Qld would be the exception.

Garry

Even an old 80 series is the same Garry, when we did the gulf in 2010, we travelled with a couple that were in an 80 series(lovely people) the aircon pump went heading into Kingfisher camp, as they were heading to Darwin after they left us, they booked the car into Darwin Toyota for the repair in 2 weeks time, when they arrived, not only was the part not there, they were told that(and this I could not believe) they didn't work on the older cars and were sent to an independent Toyota workshop down the road, when the part actually arrived, it was the wrong part, after another 2 attempts and 2 more weeks it was repaired and they were on their way, 3 weeks late, lucky for them they had free accommodation with friends and thier boss was an understanding bloke.

Hello Andrew and Amanda if you're watching:D Yogi and Boo Boo on MySwag

Baz.

[CraigA]

I had a great wall once as a loaner to my god what a piece of crap i mean i know i could buy 5 of them for the price of a new D4 HSE but i think ill stick with my D4 thanks haha god it was bad.

Hmm, maybe they use Great Walls as loaners because they make everything else look so good.

[CraigA]

Hi Rich84
Not sure which of my posts you haven't read but did I at any stage say that a Great Wall was a possible replacement for a D4? What I said was that the LRs consistently score near the bottom of reliability surveys (from all over the world) and that I would hope that the LR luxury brand would do better than this.

I agree with you, there is certainly a disconnect between owner satisfaction and those reliability surveys. There is no doubt, the D4 is a GREAT drive. To me, what that disconnect probably means is that most LR drivers don't care about reliability that much. If Land Rover realise that most of their customers don't care about reliability, what impetus is there for them to do anything about it?

Is reliability important? I guess it depends on what you want to do with your car. If you, like me, want to take it "around the block", then I think reliability is important. Or in any case, you need a pretty good backup plan. (** I started a discussion about the "best remote roadside assistance" programs in another forum.)

Not sure why you would choose to take a cheap shot at my driving record when you have no information .. I drive an average of 45,000km and have for the last 20years odd. I have previously owned Subarus and my last car was a BMW X3. In the last 20 years, I have had 4 "side of road" episodes, 2.5 of them were the D4.

To me, having a car full of technological marvels that is unreliable is similar to the famous "Yes Minister" episode with the hospital full of administators but no patients, doctors or nurses. Efficient.

[BobD]

Craig,


What was the nature of the wheel bearing failure? Did it collapse so that the wheel was on an angle with the brakes binding or something else? Also, was it on a rough road or bitumen and have you driven through mud and deep water previously? Not that mud and water would normally damage the bearings but I would just like to know the context.


Also, what was the second electrical problem?


Just interested to know for future reference.


Bob

[stray dingo]

To me, what that disconnect probably means is that most LR drivers don't care about reliability that much. If Land Rover realise that most of their customers don't care about reliability, what impetus is there for them to do anything about it?


Nah. I think thats taking it too far. All drivers care about the reliability of their vehicle. ultimately if not reliable, an owner isn't going to back a second or third time as many on Aulro have. The reliability surveys are far too general with minor service items being included. As mentioned in an earlier post, I think the bigger difference is that LR owners aren't blind to the fact that, yes, issues arise in normal operation. We just accept it and get on with exploring the world in them. Unfortunately, the D2s had their more than average number of issues which is what everyone seems to remember LR for, and branded the manufacturer accordingly.

Consider a different view - I consider "reliability" to be based on 'unintended random breakages' say. But what about recalls instead - problems due to manufacturing as a whole, often coming about as a result of reliability faults.
As a manufacturer of multiple models, LR has had 11 recalls in Aust in the last 4 years.
Toyota; 29
Nissan; 16
Mitsub; 20
Mazda; 9
Ford; 14
Holden; 31
Great Wall; 3
BMW; 12
(source www recall gov au)

[PAT303]

Maybe an old 80 series but not a 200 series - have an issue in the outback and then on a tilt tray to the nearest capital city - NSW, Vic and SE Qld would be the exception.

Garry

But would a 200 series gearbox and A/C compressor cost $45,000 to repair :D:D:D:D:D:D,I can't believe sane people write that crap. Pat

[Tombie]

But would a 200 series gearbox and A/C compressor cost $45,000 to repair :D:D:D:D:D:D,I can't believe sane people write that crap. Pat

A 200 series gearbox will rip you wallet out of your pocket, into your anus before emerging from your mouth :cool:

They certainly aren't cheap any-more..

Anything post 2005 is now expensive, regardless of brand. :cool:

[CraigA]

What was the nature of the wheel bearing failure? Did it collapse so that the wheel was on an angle with the brakes binding or something else? Also, was it on a rough road or bitumen and have you driven through mud and deep water previously? Not that mud and water would normally damage the bearings but I would just like to know the context.
Also, what was the second electrical problem?
Bob

Hi Bob,
Wheel bearing failure was a horrendous grinding noise while driving with hub getting very hot. (At first I thought it was the park brake jamming .. written up regularly as a potential). Had been on some good quality dirt roads but mostly tar. No mud nor water that I can remember.

First electrical fault was every fault known to mankind flashing at me. Was told by dealer to proceed slowly (30-40km/h) to dealership .. 150km away. Turned out to be a bad battery.

Second electrical fault was "Engine Systems Failure" and car put itself into limp mode. Roadside insisted it shouldn't be driven. Tilt trayed for 100km to Canberra. Took 20mins to fix (software upgrade). (I understand that that software fix has been available since D3 so bit hard to understand why it hadn't been done previously)

Craig

[Geedublya]

Hi Craig, Confidence in a car all depends on the owner. Personally I don't think your car is a lemon, it has had one real problem (a bad wheel bearing), the other two were due to bad luck. Batteries fail unfortunately and some Landrover dealers don't do updates or even check for them when they should.

Regardless of what I think though it is up to you, if you have lost confidence in the car nothing anyone can say will change that.

Perhaps another 12 months problem free will allay your fears and rebuild your confidence. Maybe you will have more problems and it will confirm your doubts.
I would be thinking about some sort of fault reader as the flashing lights can be very disconcerting and a fault reader can confirm problems and clear faults giving greater peace of mind.

I got rid of my D3 after the alternator failed, it had 260K and was coming due for a number of repairs. Sitting waiting for a tilt tray for 6 hours with a wife and child and 40C help me decide I would rather jump in and buy a newish petrol D4 than worry about turbos, HP fuel pumps, EGRs, bad fuel etc on a high mileage diesel.
The D4 has been lovely and the only problem was due to a mechanic with no idea.

[discotwinturbo]

My niece, a Toymota mechanic, is replacing a 200 series diesel motor as I type. List price is $35k....then add the dealers mark up, fitting....won't have much change from $50k.

My niece is so experienced at pulling at 200 series motors, she can do it all in just over 2 hours.

Brett..

[Graeme]

Was told by dealer to proceed slowly (30-40km/h) to dealership .. 150km away. Turned out to be a bad battery.

Second electrical fault was "Engine Systems Failure" and car put itself into limp mode. Roadside insisted it shouldn't be driven. Tilt trayed for 100km to Canberra. Took 20mins to fix (software upgrade).I just love the advice these people dish out when they're sitting in their city offices unaffected by the inconveniences, although they're probably just LRA's messengers so we shouldn't shoot them. If the engine idles fine and otherwise seems OK and the brakes and steering are unaffected then my approach is to attempt to clear the faults and keep going.

[101RRS]

But would a 200 series gearbox and A/C compressor cost $45,000 to repair :D:D:D:D:D:D,I can't believe sane people write that crap. Pat

I know where you have been :D.

[101RRS]

Second electrical fault was "Engine Systems Failure" and car put itself into limp mode. Roadside insisted it shouldn't be driven. Tilt trayed for 100km to Canberra. Took 20mins to fix (software upgrade). (I understand that that software fix has been available since D3 so bit hard to understand why it hadn't been done previously)

Craig

Craig - thanks for providing the extra information. So really you had two failures which realistically any vehicle could have had - that being the wheel bearing and battery - now the wheel bearing should definitely not have happened at the kms you had done but these things happen - batteries - well they are hit and miss - mine is 7 1/2 years old and still on the factory battery.

Now the last problem you had - I suspect that simply turning off and waiting until the handbrake light went out and then restarting would have fixed the issue. Certainly doing a hard reset almost definitely would have fixed it if only a software upgrade was needed. The above actions would have simply rebooted the computers and if there was no underlying which there wasn't you would have most likely been right - never a 100% guarantee though.

I assume you didn't know about these options at the time and that is where the collective wisdom of the forum comes into its own.

If you stay with your car you will appreciate the little tricks - the others are things like how to manually release the handbrake or how to get out of park when there is no power or use the earthing point in the engine bay rather than -tive on the battery for accessories.

I would consider investing in a code reader/clearer - something like Faultmate is ideal but is expensive - I use a Faultmate FCR the little brother and it has served me OK but doesn't have many features - just reads codes and clears them.

I think you vehicle is actually quite reliable and I hope you stay with it.

Cheers

Garry

[jon3950]

now the wheel bearing should definitely not have happened at the kms you had done but these things happen

I did a front one at about 40k. Still think it's unusual, but given the use mine was getting at the time maybe not surprising. Wasn't a showstopper though - it was correctly diagnosed and replaced before it failed. It didn't affect my confidence in my D4 either.

Sounds like this one became a problem due to a poor diagnosis - really neither the vehicle's nor the driver's fault.

Cheers,
Jon

[Graeme]

Now the last problem you had - I suspect that simply turning off and waiting until the handbrake light went out and then restarting would have fixed the issue. Certainly doing a hard reset almost definitely would have fixed it if only a software upgrade was needed. The above actions would have simply rebooted the computers and if there was no underlying which there wasn't you would have most likely been right - never a 100% guarantee though.I think that particular fault will not clear on a restart as the ecm detected a logic fault within its own code rather than a sensor and requires the code to be manually cleared. A fault code reader/clearer would have done the trick.

[jon3950]

I just love the advice these people dish out when they're sitting in their city offices unaffected by the inconveniences, although they're probably just LRA's messengers so we shouldn't shoot them.

Seems that covering the corporate arse is more important than helping these days. I can understand why they need to do it - imagine the costs involved if you blew a motor by following their advice. Still, not always helpful.

I guess anyone who could diagnose that sort of stuff over the phone is too valuable to have sitting in a call centre.

Cheers,
Jon

[BobD]

I think most people on this forum understand that our cars are a complex bit of machinery and require special methods to help bush proof them, rather than simple mechanical maintenance like old school 4WD's. This is probably why we are mostly OK to travel to remote places and like to defend the car against claims of unreliability.


As per the thread on the sticky, we all need a FaultmateFC as a minimum to diagnose and clear faults and a few things like a spare brake switch and spare ABS sensors. If we travel to places where there is no Roadside Assistance, some of these things are essential to ensure that we have the best preparation possible to get us into the remote areas and back home again.


I don't carry spare wheel bearings, though, and have never looked like having a wheel bearing issue in my 170,000km, tens of thousands of which have been on very rough, dusty roads with water crossings. I think I had better get some for my next trip, though, because unless you drive a 60 or 80 series Toyota, there aren't any in the bush. I bought some to carry with me for my GQ Patrol when I found out that there are no Patrol wheel bearings in remote places but it is highly likely that you can get Toyota bearings from many bush mechanics. This was after my Son in Law's 80 series front wheel bearings collapsed north of Mount Magnet on day one of a trip to Karijini. He was OK because there was a mechanic that had heaps of 80 series parts at Paynes Find.


Bob

[Graeme]

I did a front one at about 40k. Still think it's unusualThe front left is normally the 1st to fail but 40K is very early suggesting that perhaps something got past the seal. Both my D2s had well over 200K when sold and neither had any replaced and I expect the D4 to be no different, having done 145K already.

[PAT303]

I know where you have been :D.

:D:D:D:D:D:D,Sorry,I was half way through fitting new headlight relays to my Tdi when the rain came,did an interweb search waiting for it to clear on camping down south and a few clicks later who did I find :p. Pat

[101RRS]

Yes the poster claims he is not a troll but he has all the hallmarks of being one.

[jon3950]

The front left is normally the 1st to fail but 40K is very early suggesting that perhaps something got past the seal. Both my D2s had well over 200K when sold and neither had any replaced and I expect the D4 to be no different, having done 145K already.

Front right in this case - not from roundabouts. Probably a combination of a bit of mud and a few "spirited" runs down from Hotham to Bright - lots of downhill right hand corners.:) I never saw it as it was replaced under warranty, but certainly a likely explanation.

I had same experience as you with all my other Discos though, so put this one down to bad luck.

Cheers,
Jon

[Graeme]

Yes the poster claims he is not a troll but he has all the hallmarks of being one.
Just someone who hasn't previously been stuck on the side of the road several times in a near-new vehicle. I recall being very annoyed at my near-new D2 dropping its front tailshaft onto the road when neither of my well-worn RRCs had any such problems.

[Graeme]

Probably a combination of a bit of mud and a few "spirited" runs down from Hotham to Bright - lots of downhill right hand corners.:)Someone once tried to push me to do the same but I didn't play - too much tread to be sacrificed.

[shanegtr]

You think LRs are complex, try a diesel/electric haul truck. For a 7 odd million dollar machine they certainly pump out some fault codes:D. And they fail prematurely for all sorts of reasons, both electrically and mechanically. Machines all have potential to break down regardless of if they are cheap and nasty or worth millions of dollars.

Bearings most often fail long before their service life, and the 3 most common failures are installation errors, lubrication and contamination.

[nat_89]

You think LRs are complex, try a diesel/electric haul truck. For a 7 odd million dollar machine they certainly pump out some fault codes:D. And they fail prematurely for all sorts of reasons, both electrically and mechanically. Machines all have potential to break down regardless of if they are cheap and nasty or worth millions of dollars.

Bearings most often fail long before their service life, and the 3 most common failures are installation errors, lubrication and contamination.

Possibly Komatsu?? I know the 930s we have come out with some codes and after its been raining you have to start them and let them run for about half an hour to dry the inverters and computers out hahah

[BobD]

Most long haul trucks are the same. My son in law's father drives road trains all over WA (usually pretty new Volvos) and he says the engine management lights come on quite often and they just have to wait by the side of the road for a mobile mechanic to come from 100's of km away to fix them up.


On a recent trip from Darwin to Perth we passed three road trains on the side of the road or pulling off the road, talking on the radio about how their truck was in reduced power mode due to some electronic problem. These were all in the Pilbara, a long way from anywhere. Also, one late model prime mover that was completely burnt out and not much more than a heap of melted aluminum.


Seems to be the way things are heading in the name of fuel efficiency and reduced emissions.


Bob

[BMKal]

Most long haul trucks are the same. My son in law's father drives road trains all over WA (usually pretty new Volvos) and he says the engine management lights come on quite often and they just have to wait by the side of the road for a mobile mechanic to come from 100's of km away to fix them up.


On a recent trip from Darwin to Perth we passed three road trains on the side of the road or pulling off the road, talking on the radio about how their truck was in reduced power mode due to some electronic problem. These were all in the Pilbara, a long way from anywhere. Also, one late model prime mover that was completely burnt out and not much more than a heap of melted aluminum.


Seems to be the way things are heading in the name of fuel efficiency and reduced emissions.


Bob

I have a mate who sold his Mack trucks and made the mistake of replacing them with Volvos. He ended up bankrupt and now drives someone else's (Kenworth) trucks on wages.

In my experience, Volvo trucks should be confined to built up areas and freeways - they are bloody rubbish in isolated areas. ;)

[Redback]

I have a mate who sold his Mack trucks and made the mistake of replacing them with Volvos. He ended up bankrupt and now drives someone else's (Kenworth) trucks on wages.

In my experience, Volvo trucks should be confined to built up areas and freeways - they are bloody rubbish in isolated areas. ;)

Now where have I heard that before;)

[CraigA]

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their comments .. very helpful.
A few too many comments to quote since my last visit .. I'll see what I can remember.
The Engine Systems Fault .. disconnected the battery for 10minutes then reconnected .. did not clear fault.
Yes, I have learnt about the remote release of handbrake which I attempted while waiting for the tilt tray re wheel bearing. Strangely it didn't work coz it wasn't the problem.
Yes, I agree that I probably need a fault reader. These seem to range from $10 to $2000. If all I need to do is clear faults, from what I read the cheaper ones will do this but only for engine faults. Do I need to get one of the expensive ones to do Suspension or ABS faults, etc:confused:

And so far the only problems I have listed are those that have crippled me. Add to the list ..
* All buttons on steering wheel stopped working .. fix= replaced buttons.
* Door seal fell off .. fix= new door seal
* Entertainment system intermittent fault .. fix= software upgrade
* Blowing a lot of smoke .. fix= replace turbo pipe
* Door stoppers missing .. fix=replaced
* Remote key module stopped working (car could be driven without key) .. fix= new module
I should point out that my nearest dealer is 150km away. Each of these problems (except 1) required a special trip to the dealer and a day of my time.

One of the problems in my industry (computing) is that there is a constant rush to market which leads to a growth in bugs in the delivered systems. Yes, Discos are increasingly complex machines but there does not seem much point in rushing to complexity at the cost of reliability.

[donh54]

Door seals fell off, door droppers missing.... I've seen similar on cars after accident damage repairs.
Just wondering if it's had a major biff - could at least partly explain some of the issues

Sent from my HTC One XL using AULRO mobile app

[CraigA]

Door seals fell off, door droppers missing.... I've seen similar on cars after accident damage repairs.
Just wondering if it's had a major biff - could at least partly explain some of the issues


Zero I'm afraid. Have thought the same myself. (This is presuming one can trust a salesman and a general manager)
The door seal and missing plugs were on opposite sides of the car!

[Epic pooh]

Craig, I'd recommend an iidtool (gap diagnostics) purchased from a uk supplier. Well featured, easy to use and compact so it can live permanently in your disco. I never go anywhere without mine.

[Mungus]

I'd recommend a IIDTool as well. Not necessarily from the UK. I bought mine from a distributor in Oz; most likely for a little extra coin.
Get the Bluetooth version and use iPhone or tablet to email yourself faults/description/time etc... before clearing.