The Strain On Defence Force Families.

[disco man]

Article by Lydia Kellner.

Imagine being a child and not being able to see your family for nine months of the year. Imagine being uprooted every few years,leaving behind your friends and everything you hold dear. Imagine not being able to talk to loved ones for weeks on end,not knowing if he or she is safe. This is the harsh reality for the wives,partners and family members of personal serving in the Australian Defence Force. Rebeckah Costelloe is one of the many spouses who will make a stand against the Federal Governments Defence pay deal. Married to an Army corporal with a service record of 20 years,Mrs Costelloe has lived the highs and lows of Defence life. It is a life she wouldn't swap for the world as it has given her two beautiful sons and a dedicated and loving husband-but it has also brought her many tears,heartaches and moments where giving up seemed like the only option. "It's a hard life. I'm not hear to bash the military or to say that we're doing it harder than anybody else but it's important that people understand what we go through and what it is like to be a Defence family," Mrs Costelloe said. "Defence has a lot of exclusive limitations put on their personnel. "If my husband is unwell,he has to put on his uniform,drive to the base and sit at the base medical facility for hours waiting for a doctor and if he's lucky enough he will be sent home to recover.

"There are so many myths surrounding Defence and I've heard them all: You get tax-free pay,you get free rent,you get free health care....the list goes on and on. "Yes our rent is subsidised but we are put places where we couldn't afford rent because it's so expensive. "If we wouldn't get some assistance,we wouldn't be able to afford adequate housing for our family or pay other bills. "The majority of families that i have been involved with are single income families and it's very hard for wives,particularly for those with young children,to find work. "Because we're moving so often but also because of the work hours their husbands keep." Mrs Costelloe said many families spent an average of three months with their partners with the remainder spent away on exercises or deployments. "I'm lucky that I've learned to be a resilient person but I've seen a lot of wives crumble under the pressure and not being able to cope with it," she said. "I've been pushed to the limit and I've had times where I thought I can't do this anymore. "When my husband was deployed to East Timor,my youngest son was only a year old at the time and he would wake up at night and cry and cry because he wanted dad." she said.

"I sat down one year when my husband was away a lot to work out exactly how much he's been away and worked out that for the first four years of our son's life he was home for a total of nine months and that's hard. It's hard on the kids,on me and him." With the Federal Government recently cutting almost a week of recreational leave in exchange for a 1.5% pay increase,Mrs Costelloe said she had no doubt families would feel the sting more than ever. "Most of our family is in Coffs Harbour...and also our oldest son is going to uni there and we haven't seen him in three years. That's tough," she said. "He's a uni student,we're in Defence and we don't have the money to pay for the expensive flights between Coffs Harbour and Townsville. "You learn to cope as best as you can which is what we've done but it's one of the things people don't appreciate unless you're in the Defence life. "We have no choice in where we live. We have no choice where we go. It's decided for us and we just have to pack up and move on whenever we're told to do so." she said.


The school my daughters go to has a special program in place for kids of Defence families and it does a wonderful job,but it's still very hard on the kids. Just recently my daughter had her 5th birthday party and one of her friends who is the same age had never had her dad home for any of her birthdays. I was lucky when i was in the navy, as i was a young single bloke. I used to see the strain on blokes who had families when on long deployments,some would reach very deep depression and sadness. Defence families give so much and get very little in return.

[LandyAndy]

test.
Andrew

[frantic]

Thanks, as the adf personel have no independant representatives, this is the only way they can appeal the decision to cut their leave and in effect reduce their pay.
My sister was in the adf ,until a peremenant injury from cycling in the city to work made her unfit, and a couple of my friends still are so I try and speak out as they are not allowed to.

What would a private sector persons reaction be to this situation?Say Xyzabc mining management has happily taken over 30% in pay rises for the last two years, the operations side has been given 8% . Ore prices have dropped so the board say we will have no pay rise this year and the only offer to the FIFO workers is 1.5% and a loss of holiday time.

[101RRS]

Unfortunately has always been like that and I guess will always be the same given the type of work it is.

It is not good but with modern communications keeping in touch is not as hard as it used to be but still is hard on ADF members and their families.

There is a lot of support mechanisms for families, both official and unofficial but it is not the same as having your loved one there.

Garry

[bob10]

Thanks, as the adf personel have no independant representatives, this is the only way they can appeal the decision to cut their leave and in effect reduce their pay.
My sister was in the adf ,until a peremenant injury from cycling in the city to work made her unfit, and a couple of my friends still are so I try and speak out as they are not allowed to.




The private sector can not be compared to military service. There is no comparison. Your sister & friends may like to check this site out, Bon


www.standto.org (http://www.standto.org)

[Bigbjorn]

Now tell me the recruits were not aware of long periods away from home when they voluntarily enlisted. The solution is not to get married or de facto if on military service.

A former RN officer tongue in cheek told me that the poms avoided the expense of providing married quarters in the far flung outposts of empire by simply not paying enough to support a wife and family until the rank of Lieutenant-Commander was reached.

[bob10]

Now tell me the recruits were not aware of long periods away from home when they voluntarily enlisted. The solution is not to get married or de facto if on military service.

A former RN officer tongue in cheek told me that the poms avoided the expense of providing married quarters in the far flung outposts of empire by simply not paying enough to support a wife and family until the rank of Lieutenant-Commander was reached.


Most people in the military do their job without complaint, and do their job , out of a sense of duty. I say again, there is no way you can compare the military life, to one of, say, a public servant. There is no comparison. Any attempt to do otherwise is just fantasy. Also, you would expect the Government would honour conditions that the servicemen & women signed up with. Bob


Stand To - Federal budget included a 3.2 % pay rise for public servants (http://www.standto.org/resources/msbs/485-federal-budget-included-a-3-2-pay-rise-for-public-servants)

[85 county]

i go into a lot of Defense homes as well as defense housing. i am usually the last service the family engages before moving.

i see a lot of wife's who with children have packed organised and am hoping there husband or the army has sorted out a house at the other end.

i have seen and have been a shoulder for a couple of wife's who are not holding it together. i have also been into homes where the wife has decided not to move IE divorce rather than move.

there is also the single guys. a lot of them get done over by rental agency's just because they are ADF, ( on tendency vacates) (NB Edinburgh, never rent around the port)
it so devious to the point of the landlords paining internal walls with little more than chalk and water. which obviously get marked and can not be cleaned. thus the poor kid get done for a paint job. they have been transferd so no chance of showing up at a tribunal hearing.

i will not do work for defense housing anymore, those guys live in LA LA land

[bob10]

Admitting a wrong, Bob


Stand To - MEDIA RELEASE DEFENCE MINISTER ADMITS ADF PAY DEAL UNDERVALUES PERSONNEL (http://www.standto.org/resources/msbs/489-media-release-defence-minister-admits-adf-pay-deal-undervalues-personnel)

[NavyDiver]

Some of my mates are still in. The government should hang their heads in shame on the pay cut.:censored::censored::censored:

Defense Housing is a little better than it was. It is almost impossible for deployments to allow for kids, family and stuff the rest take for granted. One mate got married, posted to WA, set up his new wife ( from QLD) in Perth and was immediately re-posted to a East coast ship deployed for 12 month. Got back and then resent OS. Wife who he had seen for only a few weeks in two years went back to QLD leaving the ring behind in his defense force home:(

I only got married after I got out as I saw the divorce rate up close and felt for both sides. Very hard on families. Some make it One Gent who retired this year after a 30 year stretch is still happily married.

[bob10]

I joined in 1964. Married in 1975. Left in 1985. Early days, a single man's dream. After 4 years apprenticeship, every year from 1968 was at least 9 months overseas. After marriage, time away didn't change. But my attitude did. After coming back from overseas, about 1980, two of us were called into the Engineers office. Some one was needed in Darwin. This was Thursday night. Two of us went home, talked to our better halves, came back Friday. My mate told me he had two kids in high school, I said I would take it on, we only had two primary school kids. Told the Engineer. Piped to the Engineers office about 3 pm, got the old "good news, bad news" routine. Good news, I had the job. Bad news, I flew out the next day. Told that to the better half, after she got over the shock, the reply " that's the way it goes, " She had to do the whole removal north on her own. Luckily, her brother & his wife lived close.


In Darwin, on the boats, the routine was 6 weeks out , two weeks in, 6 weeks out, one week in. The time in harbour was not time spent at home. We had to maintain the boats, and also provide a duty watch on board, for security. If you were lucky, you were home about 5 nights in a week. If you were lucky. We are still together, she is one tough women.


The losers in this? Our two boys, the first two. Moved around, no father for a most of their young lives, when we finally settled here in Brisbane, got those first two into good , settled schooling, their life settled down. It is no coincidence that the 2 children born late in our marriage, have had less " issues " than the early ones. Am I complaining? not on your life. Would I do it again? Not after this bull**** put on by this Government. Would I recommend a life in the military to young people now? Not on your nelly. Bob

[nugge t]

I understand that this is a very emotive issue and some are going to ride it for all it is worth. Apparently according to several comments here, the discontent is only with what THIS Government is doing which infers all previous Governments were exemplary in handling Defence issues.


National Service finished just before my year rolled around but I would not have had a problem being called up. Having said that we have very close family friends who had all 4 boys join the navy and my wife's cousin was an army wife. Whilst she experience all of the problems of shifting and disruption to their boys education, her husband volunteered for 3 tours of East Timor specifically for the extra pay. It was a life they chose and they chose to continue for well over 10 years. The security of employment was a major factor for them.


It is not a life I would choose for myself but I chose not to be a police officer, a school teacher and a bank teller as well. ADF people chose the life style.


You would think this is the first time in history someone didn't get the level of pay rise they believed they should get.

[Andrew D]

Admitting a wrong, Bob


Stand To - MEDIA RELEASE DEFENCE MINISTER ADMITS ADF PAY DEAL UNDERVALUES PERSONNEL (http://www.standto.org/resources/msbs/489-media-release-defence-minister-admits-adf-pay-deal-undervalues-personnel)

Johnston (MP) is declaring the last government was "the most profligate and incompetent government in our history" hence the pay cuts. (with reference to Hansard)

ParlInfo - QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE : Australian Defence Force (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber%2Fhansards%2F694 b3980-4563-4fff-acdb-959ae6880f64%2F0056;query=Id%3A%22chamber%2Fhansar ds%2F694b3980-4563-4fff-acdb-959ae6880f64%2F0000%22)


Regards
Andrew

[bob10]

You would think this is the first time in history someone didn't get the level of pay rise they believed they should get.


Both sides of government are guilty of attacking service men & womens conditions. And all married couples in the ADF just get on with it. They cope because they have to. And this discontent is not just about a pay rise. Although, I'm not surprised some here think it is a trivial matter. Bob


Stand To - War veteran organisations (http://standto.org/fg-indexation/493-war-veteran-organisations-issue-blunt-demand-to-government-over-unfair-pay-and-pension-deals)


Stand To - Opinion - Determining ADF Pay Fairly means Independent Representation and a Truly Independent Tribunal (http://standto.org/resources/msbs/488-determining-adf-pay-fairly-means-independent-representation-and-a-truly-independent-tribunal)

[bob10]

What is probably the last word from me, on this subject, and to be fair to the Federal government, the angst over the pay rise/ disability pension/ service pension debate could be alleviated by the government releasing the risk analysis done, to justify their actions. Fair minded people can understand when presented with viable facts, but so far the gov. has refused. All this does is fan the fire, with some suggesting there was not an assessment done. The gov. could cool the anger by releasing the assessment. Bob


Stand To - GOVERNMENT ASKED TO REVEAL ADF PAY RISE RISK ANALYSIS (http://standto.org/resources/msbs/484-government-asked-to-reveal-adf-pay-rise-risk-analysis)

[frantic]

I'm not suprised either.:(
One person's response in a non political thread is to post a political speech, when both sides have been guilty at one stage, just the latest is current news.
Another is to call being prepared to sacrifice your life, your family's stability and your career a "lifestyle". With "job security ".:mad: it's a calling, sacrifice and commitment to your country.
As I explained previously my sister was adf and forced out as an injury meant she could not do a physical. What i didn't explain is after 10 years service she was earning way less than others her age, 8 years out now and she is earning 2-3 times what she would if she stayed in. (she did not want to leave) fee we With a stable home, not being transferred at short notice.
Officers can earn decent money but need to be in a long time to get there, and are still subject to yearly physicals and an age limit (60)where they are kicked out if to old or fail because of injury.
To me the SERVICE should be made more attractive to ensure we have adequate numbers for any instance/situation , not cut to drive more out. It's all well and good to have the latest equipment, but without the personell to operate, it's pointless.

[nugge t]

Am I complaining? not on your life. Would I do it again? Not after this bull**** put on by this Government. Would I recommend a life in the military to young people now? Not on your nelly. Bob



sorry bob10 I took your earlier comment as all ills are the responsibility of this government.


This reference and other from weakestlink are what made it political in a non political area.


I simply make the point that people enter the ADF knowing the life style and the risk. If they don't like the life style or the pay rate, they can leave and as others have pointed out, earn more money.

[bob10]

I'm not suprised either.:(
One person's response in a non political thread is to post a political speech, when both sides have been guilty at one stage, just the latest is current news.
Another is to call being prepared to sacrifice your life, your family's stability and your career a "lifestyle". With "job security ".:mad: it's a calling, sacrifice and commitment to your country.
As I explained previously my sister was adf and forced out as an injury meant she could not do a physical. What i didn't explain is after 10 years service she was earning way less than others her age, 8 years out now and she is earning 2-3 times what she would if she stayed in. (she did not want to leave) fee we With a stable home, not being transferred at short notice.
Officers can earn decent money but need to be in a long time to get there, and are still subject to yearly physicals and an age limit (60)where they are kicked out if to old or fail because of injury.
To me the SERVICE should be made more attractive to ensure we have adequate numbers for any instance/situation , not cut to drive more out. It's all well and good to have the latest equipment, but without the personell to operate, it's pointless.


Most people join the services to do a job. Not get one. [ I know, that was the mantra of the National servicemen to the regulars, :p] and just got on with the job, trusting our political masters to look after us, and our families, in the event of injury, or old age, or sickness, mental or otherwise. Or death. We were not political animals, naive , really, like the time Mr Fraser froze wages for all Australians, & Mr Hawke, when taking power, kept the freeze on for the ADF only, for another 2 years. Our reaction? They know what they are doing, they will look after us. I'm older & wiser now, & know better.


In the main, DVA does look after ex servicemen, but that was not a government priority, that came about , in a way by conscription. Conscripts, not brainwashed by the military attitude of obey at all costs, and just get on with it, came back , finished their Uni. degrees, joined the judiciary , and other respected institutions, and upon seeing perceived injustices being perpetrated on their mates still in the service, fought the good fight, formed strong lobby groups, [ VVAA, for example] and realising the only motivation most politicians have is losing votes, started making a difference. So, in a way , conscription came back to bite the Federal gov., of both persuasions. I don't have the numbers, but it is said more WW2 servicemen & women gained benefits after this period, than before. The motto of VVAA is, " honour the dead, but fight like hell for the living. " So, yes, this issue is going to be ridden for all it is worth, in the right way, by the right people. I have no hard feelings to any one on this forum, to understand, you had to be there. And yes, I am going to fight like hell for the living. Especially the young ones, they deserve it. Bob

[101RRS]

I simply make the point that people enter the ADF knowing the life style and the risk. If they don't like the life style or the pay rate, they can leave and as others have pointed out, earn more money.

I certainly would not disagree with your comment and in my experience there generally is not an issue for the first few years. Unfortunately the new girl friend, who becomes the new wife and then the dog and then later the kids don't quite see things that way. The guy also changes and surprise, surprise wants to put the welfare of his family before the service.

For sure in the majority of families they work their way through this, but for many it is all too much with unhappy outcomes.

It is easy to say what should or should not happen and they the families should know what they are getting into but life in reality is very different.

Garry

[nugge t]

I can understand that garrycol but is it realistic for the ADF or anyemployer for that matter to have to accommodate every time an employee, soldieror not, reaches a new stage of their life and whose priorities havechanged?

[101RRS]

I can understand that garrycol but is it realistic for the ADF or anyemployer for that matter to have to accommodate every time an employee, soldieror not, reaches a new stage of their life and whose priorities havechanged?


Well if they don't they then have to spend lots of money and resources recruiting and training new people to replace those who leave because the services do not or will not meet their needs.

As discussed in other threads - the Australian submarine force was/is an example - drive people too hard, upset their sea shore ratio, don't understand their family needs and pay the consequence of not having enough qualified people to do the job.

The answer is not easy - if it was there would not be an issue.

[nugge t]

Well if they don't they then have to spend lots of money and resources recruiting and training new people to replace those who leave because the services do not or will not meet their needs.

As discussed in other threads - the Australian submarine force was/is an example - drive people too hard, upset their sea shore ratio, don't understand their family needs and pay the consequence of not having enough qualified people to do the job.

The answer is easy - if it was there would not be an issue.





Agree in part but every organisation has staff turn. I can certainly see that are specialist areas which would require special rates of pay etc but realistically you are never going to satisfy everyone.


I know the airforce used to have trouble retaining pilots due to the big money on offer in the private sector. I am not sure that is still the case as I believe pilots generally are not earning what they used to.


Many non Govt sectors are seeing lower wages. I would suspect hat many in the auto manufacturing industry would be grateful for a 1.5% payrise and a ongoing job.


It just seems to me that everyone always want more and at some point there has to be a balancing.

[frantic]

ADF is not "any employer" and the requirements of the job are unique.
I'm not familiar with "any employer" besides the ADF who offers such a "lifestyle".
What little things they have should not be taken away or eroded further in the name of a budget "crisis" in which we are the best performing economy in the OECD.
Further it's not about "wanting more" , its about giving less with no choice.
The state of Australia: the economy - www.thebull.com.au (http://www.thebull.com.au/premium/a/45943-the-state-of-australia:-the-economy.html)
International comparisons of national debt – Parliament of Australia (http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook43p/nationaldebt)


To restate it in a private sector company owners terms. You buy the latest do-hickey plant , that requires 5 bodies trained for 12 months full time to operate correctly and make product far superior and in greater numbers than any competitor. In the last 2 years production has been excellent with big bonuses for you the owner manager, and them doing extra overtime to increase production and profits from that section. But this year orders in your other products slow as market in those sectors has temporarily reduced. You decide to increase production on your Do-hickey machine as the market is growing in that sector, do you tell the 5 blokes they are going to do 2 extra overtime shifts a week for free with no payrise for 2 years then try to run with 4 or 3 after they find alternate work and quit. Or do you train up 3-5 more and start a second shift/ rotating roster rewarding the loyalty of the original 5 who will help train the new guys?

[bob10]

Agree in part but every organisation has staff turn. I can certainly see that are specialist areas which would require special rates of pay etc but realistically you are never going to satisfy everyone.


I know the airforce used to have trouble retaining pilots due to the big money on offer in the private sector. I am not sure that is still the case as I believe pilots generally are not earning what they used to.


Many non Govt sectors are seeing lower wages. I would suspect hat many in the auto manufacturing industry would be grateful for a 1.5% payrise and a ongoing job.


It just seems to me that everyone always want more and at some point there has to be a balancing.


Mate, let it go, you don't understand, & probably never will. please don't start arguing the point, just for the sake an argument. Bob

[nugge t]

Mate, let it go, you don't understand, & probably never will. please don't start arguing the point, just for the sake an argument. Bob



I understand that it maybe hard to look at it from both sides when you are as committed as you are, and I genuinely believe you are.


But there are 2 sides non the less and to suggest that I am simply looking for an argument is offensive.


garrycol made some good points which I can appreciate.

[bob10]

I understand that it maybe hard to look at it from both sides when you are as committed as you are, and I genuinely believe you are.


But there are 2 sides non the less and to suggest that I am simply looking for an argument is offensive.


garrycol made some good points which I can appreciate.




No offence meant, nugget. Bob

[Andrew D]

One person's response in a non political thread is to post a political speech, when both sides have been guilty at one stage, just the latest is current news.


At least a couple. It was served up and then returned with some additional context.

Regards
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

I don't have sympathy for someone who accepts a job then ages later whinges and moans about the terms of employment. You knew you would be sent away from home for long periods. This is like people who build new homes next to a steel works or airport and then complain about the noise.

When I owned trucks I made sure that all applicants for driving jobs were informed that if on the East Coast shuttle they would be home only every second weekend, on Darwin or Perth home every third weekend. The younger ones almost inevitably would have woman trouble: "you are never home. I'm here on my own looking after this house and your kids. whinge, nag, whinge." I got to the point where to achieve reliable staff, I employed drivers over 45. A lot of whom didn't want to go home.

I also worked in heavy truck and machinery sales firms where the country reps servicing the far flung outposts of Oz would be away 2-3 weeks at a time, back in the office long enough to do expenses and paperwork, attend a meeting or two and then back in the saddle.

A friend in a human resources firm in Perth tells me this applies to FIFO workers. When they come home they get their ear chewed about the woman being left on her own to manage a family and home. Often given an ultimatum, "me or the job" What's it to be." Quite forgetting the job is what gives them an income 2-3 or more times than he would achieve in a factory or on a construction site.

Don't like it? Find another job.

[101RRS]

Don't like it? Find another job.

And they do - so substantially increasing costs to businesses and Defence in recruiting and training new staff.

Organisations have advised time on/time off rosters and most employees accept that - the Navy has the Sea/Shore roster but managers become greedy - and personnel are told that due to operational requirements or manning shortfalls the shore time is to be cut (this is what gets the missus upset) and off you go. Then that person says "stuff you" and leaves putting larger demands on those that stay.

It is poor management by managers and poor implementation of the rules by managers that is the issue - not the basic policies.

In my experience most personnel and their families are happy to give it their all when on their operational cycle but when this also eats into the time when they are non operational that servicemen walk and Defence has to then pay hundreds of thousands to train a replacement.

[THE BOOGER]

Unlike civi jobs defence cannot go too the boss and negotiate a change in employment. If a FIFO worker says too the boss I want an extra week off or a day or 2 longer at home he can change it if both parties want it. In the Military there is no negotiation, nobody really representing the worker so to speak:)

[nugge t]

garrycol, then isn't the Navy failing in how they train and supervise the middle managers?


Is promotion by length of duty or ability, in the forces these days?

[Brad110]

The issue is real as the Servicemen and Women, current serving and Ex are without a voice. The conditions of service won in the years that all families had recent first hand experience have been eroded with the memories. Housing loans, Super, removals, travel, and specialist pay. Then the pensions are not indexed like all others and DVA cut their services.

The effects of cuts are enduring, after 22 years service with 14 moves, we didn't complain but in that time conditions of service were eroded and as an Advocate helping others that served with me it's sad to see these people not looked after.

There is no other profession that offers so much and takes so much. It's not possible to describe a day on the "2 way range" to any one that hasn't experienced it.

They deserve to be looked after fairly as they are not represented. It's too easy to target them. Don't cut conditions but weapons and equipment that can be bought quickly next time we send our best to serve in someone else's War.

I asked and saw some ordinary people do extraordinary things on active service and now to see them not looked after as promised is saddening and a blemish on our National Fabric. We wouldn't do it to our sports "Heroes" that are so relished.

Enough from me. If ya haven't seen you shouldn't say. Just monkey talk.

[AndyG]

As an observer, it would seem our Defense people have been through the grinder for the last 13 years at least operationally, the last thing they need is being kicked in the nuts when they get home.

Or is the Defense force fundamentally under sized for the tasks it is being given, certainly the spend is at an all time low.

[101RRS]

garrycol, then isn't the Navy failing in how they train and supervise the middle managers?

Its called human nature - same issue in all walks of life. If people have unrealistic deadlines or tasking they will do whatever is needed to deliver - same applies in all industries - see all the media attention over the past few years to unrealistic deadlines in the trucking industry.

A Can Do attitude is rewarded where a Can Not Do attitude means you will not be in that position for long.

[nugge t]

But isn't it what separates good companies from poorer performing companies. I am still interested in how promotion is achieved.


I am also trying to understand more about deployment.

As far as I can see the ADF has about 58,000 people. How many are deployed in war zones at any one time currently?

[Blknight.aus]

I want to comment,

I'm not allowed t, my opinion might upset someone who out ranks me or worse some civillian.

[bob10]

The issue is real as the Servicemen and Women, current serving and Ex are without a voice. The conditions of service won in the years that all families had recent first hand experience have been eroded with the memories. Housing loans, Super, removals, travel, and specialist pay. Then the pensions are not indexed like all others and DVA cut their services.

The effects of cuts are enduring, after 22 years service with 14 moves, we didn't complain but in that time conditions of service were eroded and as an Advocate helping others that served with me it's sad to see these people not looked after.

There is no other profession that offers so much and takes so much. It's not possible to describe a day on the "2 way range" to any one that hasn't experienced it.

They deserve to be looked after fairly as they are not represented. It's too easy to target them. Don't cut conditions but weapons and equipment that can be bought quickly next time we send our best to serve in someone else's War.

I asked and saw some ordinary people do extraordinary things on active service and now to see them not looked after as promised is saddening and a blemish on our National Fabric. We wouldn't do it to our sports "Heroes" that are so relished.

Enough from me. If ya haven't seen you shouldn't say. Just monkey talk.


Spot on, and thanks for being an advocate. You're blood's worth bottling. Only those in the know, know how difficult the job is. Bob

[bob10]

Some more interesting facts, Bob






DefenceRecords Being Destroyed And Kept Secret:





(TheSydney Morning Herald ? 8th November.)



Sensitive Department of Defence documents are beingregularly destroyed by defence bureaucrats, with erased files including abusescandals at Duntroon, "chemical and biological warfare", and"treatment of Indonesians captured in Malaysia (in 1964-65)". Historians warn a regime that allows documentsto be destroyed and fails to make them easily available toresearchers threatens to cover up important activities by Defence that shouldbe revealedwhen documents are opened to the public after 27 years.


Fairfax Media can reveal only about 0.2 per cent ofsurviving Defence records for 1957 to 1987 are listed on the National Archives' electronic database, and even fewer are publicly"open", effectively shielding the vast bulk of files from publicscrutiny. Behind this wall of secrecy,many of the most politically sensitive have been destroyed.


By obtaining and searching the original card indexes,Fairfax Media has established a list of documents that no longer exist,covering some of Australia's most controversial defence activities. Destroyed files include:



A file on a 1969 abuse scandal at the Royal MilitaryCollege at Duntroon called "alleged ill treatment of juniors atRMC" and a 1983 file on complaints about unlawful punishments in the army.
Defence files on medical reports from Australia's TaskForce in Vietnam from 1969 to 1971 - a period when troops were aerially sprayedwith Agent Orange and "highly toxic" insecticides.
AVietnam war-era file titled "Insecticides working party, minutes andcorrespondence".
Fileson the highly controversial purchase of the F-111 from the United States.
Fileson the divisive establishment of US Defence installations in Australia.
A file on "treatment of Indonesians captured inMalaysia" [during Confrontation in 1964-65] and a file on the treatmentof Vietnamese in the Vietnam War.
AVietnam era file on "chemical and biological warfare".
When these files were requested based on the cardindexes, Defence replied through the Archives that "Unfortunately, theagency have responded that these records were destroyed". ChristopherWaters, associate professor in history atDeakin University, says Australia's Defence Department has a far worse accessrecord than that of Britain: "Defence's destruction of such key filesis a major concern to historians of Australian foreign and defencepolicy, especially on Cold War conflicts," Dr Waters said.
"In theUnited Kingdom the records of the defence departments are one of the majorsources for historians on a whole range of importantevents and issues ... By contrast in Australia the records of the Department ofDefence, especially from 1958 onwards, which should be available toresearchers, are not, except for a very small percentage... which has left a big gap in our understanding of Australia's defencehistory since the late 1950s."
A Defence spokesman said that Defence records are kept inaccordance with schedules approved by the National Archives, which its staffare directed to follow. The Archives'spokesperson said it still held the other 99.7 per cent of files to be"available for public access".

The spokesperson did not explain how thepublic could identify and request them.

[Will Wallace]

sorry bob10 I took your earlier comment as all ills are the responsibility of this government.


This reference and other from weakestlink are what made it political in a non political area.


I simply make the point that people enter the ADF knowing the life style and the risk. If they don't like the life style or the pay rate, they can leave and as others have pointed out, earn more money.

We very rarely know what we are getting in to when we sign up.

Will

Sent from my R5 using AULRO mobile app

[isuzurover]

...I am still interested in how promotion is achieved.

...

Last I heard from friends in the forces, low-mid level promotions are based on time served, mid-high based on merit.

[AndyG]

General Morrison has given some tough talk on social misconduct, to put it lightly, to fellow employees and families. Is this a uniquely ADF problem, or representative of an organization of this size.

Sure we have all heard the horror stories of what young recruits are/were subjected to. Supposedly to 'harden them up'

[boa]

Spot on, and thanks for being an advocate. You're blood's worth bottling. Only those in the know, know how difficult the job is. Bob
But that is also relevant to a lot of jobs not just the ADF.

[Chenz]

My daughter is in the Navy and has been for the past 9 years working up to the rank of Lieutenant.

She flew out today on a 7 month deployment to Afghanistan. No money paid is enough to go and do a job like that.

Her promotions have been based on the fact that she gets off her but and does what is required without hesitation.

Sure the Navy has put her through university and she now has two degrees and on completion of her deployment will be studying to be a doctor. This will require her to dedicate another 9 years of her life to the ADF.

The government and the opposition should hang their head in shame if this is the way they need to balance the books.

My love and admiration go out to her and all the ADF personnel who risk their lives so we can sit behind a computer and home and post our thoughts freely in a free country.

[bob10]

My daughter is in the Navy and has been for the past 9 years working up to the rank of Lieutenant.

She flew out today on a 7 month deployment to Afghanistan. No money paid is enough to go and do a job like that.

Her promotions have been based on the fact that she gets off her but and does what is required without hesitation.

Sure the Navy has put her through university and she now has two degrees and on completion of her deployment will be studying to be a doctor. This will require her to dedicate another 9 years of her life to the ADF.

The government and the opposition should hang their head in shame if this is the way they need to balance the books.

My love and admiration go out to her and all the ADF personnel who risk their lives so we can sit behind a computer and home and post our thoughts freely in a free country.


My thoughts, & prayers, are with your daughter. If hers is anything like my experience, these next 7 months will be very busy, perhaps she may not contact you as much as you would like, doesn't mean she doesn't want to. just means she is busy. Bob

[Will Wallace]

Last I heard from friends in the forces, low-mid level promotions are based on time served, mid-high based on merit.

The decent workers get fed up with the BS and leave, and then so often the only ones left to promote are the drop kicks. This isn't always the way. However it does happen all to often.

I'm feeling that my time is done.
Bit there just isn't that many jobs about.

Will

Sent from my R5 using AULRO mobile app

[boa]

My daughter is in the Navy and has been for the past 9 years working up to the rank of Lieutenant.

She flew out today on a 7 month deployment to Afghanistan. No money paid is enough to go and do a job like that.

Her promotions have been based on the fact that she gets off her but and does what is required without hesitation.

Sure the Navy has put her through university and she now has two degrees and on completion of her deployment will be studying to be a doctor. This will require her to dedicate another 9 years of her life to the ADF.

The government and the opposition should hang their head in shame if this is the way they need to balance the books.

My love and admiration go out to her and all the ADF personnel who risk their lives so we can sit behind a computer and home and post our thoughts freely in a free country.

But to me it is a decision she has made of her own free will. I presume she loves her job and I wish her all the best. And also respect her choice but to me it was a choice. As in her decision and direction in life. For me I have never taken a job for the money.

[Chenz]

But to me it is a decision she has made of her own free will. I presume she loves her job and I wish her all the best. And also respect her choice but to me it was a choice. As in her decision and direction in life. For me I have never taken a job for the money.

True. She does the job because she loves it and not the money. The point is that the old adage of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay rigs even more clearly when it is your life that you are putting on the line.

[isuzurover]

The decent workers get fed up with the BS and leave, and then so often the only ones left to promote are the drop kicks. This isn't always the way. However it does happen all to often.

....

However that still skirts around Nugget's (valid) question.

e.g. The army website gives (general) time frames for promotion (up to a given rank). My understanding is that unless you stuff up, you will be promoted based on time served up to certain level (e.g. major). Or am I wrong???

Commissioned Officer Ranks - Australian Army (http://www.army.gov.au/Who-we-are/Ranks/Officer-Ranks)
http://www.army.gov.au/Who-we-are/Ranks/Other-Ranks

[Disco95]

There is certainly a good deal of passion o this subject. I have nothing but the up most respect and admiration for those who serve in our armed forces.
I live in a area that has 2 large naval bases close by. My wife looks after some of the navy children as (well as non navy children) and I myself have taken care of a good number of navy children who are primary school aged. My wife has had these children in care (along with non military parented children) from around 8 mths till school age, I have been involved with the primary children ( navy children and non navy children) for a good 2 years now myself. My experience so far has been that these babies are very well adjusted, the primary children are great. I have some very satisfying and fulfilling relationships with some of these families. I worked in the local high schools' learning disability department with Navy and non Navy children. Honestly, the children that come from non naval backgrounds from preschool right through to high school Where I live definitely have more issues than the navy children.

In addition to this, the naval personal that I know (and there are a good number of them) earn a good deal more than my wife or myself do! Remember we are looking after the most important things in these peoples lives! Their children!
Good on them I say, they do an outstanding job! But they chose that job, they chose that life.
I know an ex-army family, only job the father ever had, missus never had to go to work. She stayed home while he was away, followed him to all his postings. Kids grew up well balanced and now have great jobs. He is only a little older than me and now retired.Owns his own home, manages to buy a new 4WD every 3 or 4 years and then kits it out however he wants. I bought his 2010 caravan from him in 2012 so he could go and buy a bigger one. He's rarely home because he's traveling our great country all the time. He DOES get free healthcare, and numerous other benefits I will never be entitled to. But good on him, he deserves them!

You make choices in life you deal with what it hands out.

[bob10]

However that still skirts around Nugget's (valid) question.

e.g. The army website gives (general) time frames for promotion (up to a given rank). My understanding is that unless you stuff up, you will be promoted based on time served up to certain level (e.g. major). Or am I wrong???

Commissioned Officer Ranks - Australian Army (http://www.army.gov.au/Who-we-are/Ranks/Officer-Ranks)
Other Ranks - Australian Army (http://www.army.gov.au/Who-we-are/Ranks/Other-Ranks)


Wrong, big time. How many courses do you think you would have to do to get to Major? The only time quick promotion happens, is in a situation like WW1. In the Somme. I can not believe that any one would be naive enough to suggest promotion was based on time served. Now you know why we servicemen & women just shake our heads, & say, it just aint worth talking to these ........ Bob

[bob10]

There is certainly a good deal of passion o this subject. I have nothing but the up most respect and admiration for those who serve in our armed forces.
I live in a area that has 2 large naval bases close by. My wife looks after some of the navy children as (well as non navy children) and I myself have taken care of a good number of navy children who are primary school aged. My wife has had these children in care (along with non military parented children) from around 8 mths till school age, I have been involved with the primary children ( navy children and non navy children) for a good 2 years now myself. My experience so far has been that these babies are very well adjusted, the primary children are great. I have some very satisfying and fulfilling relationships with some of these families. I worked in the local high schools' learning disability department with Navy and non Navy children. Honestly, the children that come from non naval backgrounds from preschool right through to high school Where I live definitely have more issues than the navy children.

In addition to this, the naval personal that I know (and there are a good number of them) earn a good deal more than my wife or myself do! Remember we are looking after the most important things in these peoples lives! Their children!
Good on them I say, they do an outstanding job! But they chose that job, they chose that life.
I know an ex-army family, only job the father ever had, missus never had to go to work. She stayed home while he was away, followed him to all his postings. Kids grew up well balanced and now have great jobs. He is only a little older than me and now retired.Owns his own home, manages to buy a new 4WD every 3 or 4 years and then kits it out however he wants. I bought his 2010 caravan from him in 2012 so he could go and buy a bigger one. He's rarely home because he's traveling our great country all the time. He DOES get free healthcare, and numerous other benefits I will never be entitled to. But good on him, he deserves them!

You make choices in life you deal with what it hands out.


Nowra, or Creswell, I assume. And how much time do they spend away from home? We have a name for them . Stone frigates. They never go to sea. Good if you can get it. And good luck to them. But a big mistake to base your perception of life in the Navy on them. Bob

[boa]

True. She does the job because she loves it and not the money. The point is that the old adage of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay rigs even more clearly when it is your life that you are putting on the line.

I don't have the figures but life in general is risky. Some jobs more so than others . Are you at more risk in some jobs yes. But people tend to do what they love. Regretting some decisions you made early in life, but now bitter about them is not helping your mindset. Not directed at your daughter at all, I hoped she enjoys her experiences

[bob10]

I don't have the figures but life in general is risky. Some jobs more so than others . Are you at more risk in some jobs yes. But people tend to do what they love. Regretting some decisions you made early in life, but now bitter about them is not helping your mindset.


Boa, please. You are getting out of line, mate. Bob

[isuzurover]

I don't have the figures but life in general is risky. ....


Safe Work Australia publish the figures every year. Last I looked, Farmers have a higher rate of death and serious injury than those the military (in recent years). Presumably that is averaged across all ranks, etc...

[Disco95]

Nowra, or Creswell, I assume. And how much time do they spend away from home? We have a name for them . Stone frigates. They never go to sea. Good if you can get it. And good luck to them. But a big mistake to base your perception of life in the Navy on them. Bob


So what you're saying is that some military personel have a right to complain and some don't?

Albatross and Creswell, and they spend a good amount of time at sea.
A mother came crying to us recently because her hubby just got home after being out for 2 weeks at sea flying, and was called the next day to go for an undetermined time, leaving in the morning. That's the life, she cried, but it happens. she married a navy man, she knows it.

Another family is lucky because hubby is only based in Sydney at the moment so can come home on the weekends!!

Shall I continue??
Think I might ask them what a stone frigate is and see how they react....

Wifes cousin is at Garden island in Perth, they do EXTREMELY well for them selves. It has its downsides also, but it's the life they choose. Their kids are awesome!! Less trouble and better behave than I was at their age!

And my ARMY mate is still living large and enjoying retirement before 65.

[THE BOOGER]

The only way your army mate gets free medical is if he is disabled and has a gold or silver card from vet affairs there may be more to his story than you know:)

[Brad110]

Like all employment some reach levels above their ability or experience but...there are so many courses and assessments it's quite competitive.
The great thing is that peers are the best judge. Most course assessment involve group activities whereby those that are not team players or pull their weight don't get the support of their peers and rate low. I've seen peers buoy up students because they deserved to pass and in turn some that would pass not get the support and fail.


Luckily the people that you don't want are more visible and accountable in active service.

In turn some people, particularly technical ones may wish to or choose to stay at that rank or position. I had a Corporal that was chosen as the Army best soldier one year and he chose to do the same job for 15 of his 20 years.

The structure on the web site is hyperthetical.

There are opportunities and choices as there would be in any industry. A good leader is just that a leader of a team and when he or she moves on promotion, may take some of the team with them, I did.
One big issue is the loss of the Service pension after 20 years whereby people remained for the duration. Your most interesting and rewarding job is about the 12 year mark then it was other jobs until your time was up. At the 12 year mark you are fully trained and experienced but not too entrenched to get out and get Civil employment. Often it's the best that move on.
One reason the web provides rank and promotion information is that recruits now join into a trade or position and often know their first posting location. In my time locations were gained on merit and keenly contested. This would be the case moreso today as most are posted to Bris, Townsville or Darwin, well away from where they come from. A long way from where prospective partners live and family support. And reunion travel has been cut. It's expensive to live in these areas.

[Ean Austral]

I have a slightly different experience about the moving around. My father was in the army his whole working life, we were in Darwin and got moved to Sydney 10 days before cyclone Tracey hit , so im thankful for that move.


Got moved around several times until he got posted to Campbell barracks in Swanbourne WA where we spent about 7 yrs.


My brother joined up, and when I didn't my father never spoke to me again.


I have nothing but admiration for all serving and past serving personel.I have certainly lived 1 side of it.


The original post sounded no different to my life as a Commercial fisherman but I certainly don't want it to be compared to what those in the services go thru.... and to be clear im not trying too..


Cheers Ean

[Will Wallace]

[. This would be the case moreso today as most are posted to Bris, Townsville or Darwin, well away from where they come from. A long way from where prospective partners live and family support. And reunion travel has been cut. It's expensive to live in these areas.[/QUOTE]

And that sums up why we are ****ed about the loss of leave days, travel expenses cut (because new cars travel better and the road upgrades make travel easier) hahaa, clearly not the roads out of Townsville or Darwin and entitlements reduced. If it wasn't for these cuts, I don't think the pay would be such the issue it is.

Will.

[justinc]

I have a slightly different experience about the moving around. My father was in the army his whole working life, we were in Darwin and got moved to Sydney 10 days before cyclone Tracey hit , so im thankful for that move.


Got moved around several times until he got posted to Campbell barracks in Swanbourne WA where we spent about 7 yrs.


My brother joined up, and when I didn't my father never spoke to me again.


I have nothing but admiration for all serving and past serving personel.I have certainly lived 1 side of it.


The original post sounded no different to my life as a Commercial fisherman but I certainly don't want it to be compared to what those in the services go thru.... and to be clear im not trying too..


Cheers Ean

That is very sad Ean, incredibly harsh and unnecessary. I feel for you :(. Hopefully that is a rare occurrence.
My younger Brother left school, straight back to the UK to join the Royal Marines. He didn't quite get there and joined RN instead. Flew Sea Kings around and served in the Adriatic during the Balkans conflict travelled the world and sent postcards home to us from Cyprus and anecdotes about water skiing around some greek isle... He is still in, transferred many years ago back here, ranked as a Lt Commander and is now XO of 808 Squadron at Albatross, Nowra. He joined, I had no interest and chose a totally different direction, and our parents are happy that we both did something useful with our lives on this planet. Again, Ean I can't fathom how upsetting that would've been for you as a Son hearing that. How did your Brother react to it all If it isn't too unpleasant to retell?

(Edit: Adding link to Article from Navy news, http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Jul2013/People/127/Being-%E2%80%98tip-of-the-sword%E2%80%99-a-family-tradition-for-808-Squadron-XO.htm#.VHSARYuUcfE )
JC

[Ean Austral]

That is very sad Ean, incredibly harsh and unnecessary. I feel for you :(. Hopefully that is a rare occurrence.
My younger Brother left school, straight back to the UK to join the Royal Marines. He didn't quite get there and joined RN instead. Flew Sea Kings around and served in the Adriatic during the Balkans conflict travelled the world and sent postcards home to us from Cyprus and anecdotes about water skiing around some greek isle... He is still in, transferred many years ago back here, ranked as a Lt Commander and is now XO of 808 Squadron at Albatross, Nowra. He joined, I had no interest and chose a totally different direction, and our parents are happy that we both did something useful with our lives on this planet. Again, Ean I can't fathom how upsetting that would've been for you as a Son hearing that. How did your Brother react to it all If it isn't too unpleasant to retell?

(Edit: Adding link to Article from Navy news, Being (http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Jul2013/People/127/Being-%E2%80%98tip-of-the-sword%E2%80%99-a-family-tradition-for-808-Squadron-XO.htm#.VHSARYuUcfE) )
JC


Gday Justin,


To be honest I got on with my life. I went fishing and in those days was spending 11 months at sea, so never really had time to dwell on it. I made a promise to myself I would never have that attitude if I was lucky enough to become a father. Our daughters are now 24 & 19 and I speak with them most days.


My dad came from a different era, went to war in Vietnam and he just believed that you followed in your parents footsteps. My brother got out not long after Dad died, and we have never spoken about it.


Cheers Ean

[Bigbjorn]

But isn't it what separates good companies from poorer performing companies. I am still interested in how promotion is achieved.



In the Dept. of Social Security after Second Tier Wage Adjustment in 1988 it helped to be female, black or ethnic, and a brown-noser. An advantage was to be able to rabbit off the latest Departmental dogma about EEO, political correctness, privacy, and so on. A directive was issued to management to promote more women and "disadvantaged minorities" into supervisory positions. Not enough good enough? No matter, promote the duds anyhow. Numbers are more important than quality. So competent, diligent officers missed out on deserved promotions time after time. There became a dearth of white male breadwinners in most regional offices. Seemingly, new appointees were middle aged married women working for second & third houses, private schools, overseas trips.

[Chenz]

I don't have the figures but life in general is risky. Some jobs more so than others . Are you at more risk in some jobs yes. But people tend to do what they love. Regretting some decisions you made early in life, but now bitter about them is not helping your mindset. Not directed at your daughter at all, I hoped she enjoys her experiences

The only thing I regret not doing when I was younger was getting a Defender and driving it around Aus.

My mindset is fine. I respect and admire my daughters decision. When she told me at age 16 she was going to join the navy and become an officer I said yeah right. She has proven me wrong and good on her.

She sees the navy as a career and not a job. I am sure people like her and many others she works with will enable the ADF to go forward and become on of the best in the world.

If they could run the show and not have to be told what to do by failed solicitors and school teachers masquerading as politicians and ministers we would all be better off.

[boa]

The only thing I regret not doing when I was younger was getting a Defender and driving it around Aus.

My mindset is fine. I respect and admire my daughters decision. When she told me at age 16 she was going to join the navy and become an officer I said yeah right. She has proven me wrong and good on her.

She sees the navy as a career and not a job. I am sure people like her and many others she works with will enable the ADF to go forward and become on of the best in the world.

If they could run the show and not have to be told what to do by failed solicitors and school teachers masquerading as politicians and ministers we would all be better off.
Agree as such but would that not make us a dictatorship. We need balance but that comes as a cost. Balance is the key. How do we achieve that?. Understand your frustration. The problem we have is more people in society are more than happy to take from society than to contribute to it As stated good on you for supporting you daughter and her decision to give to society.

[nugge t]

I am still very confused about what is actually happening here. can someone list what the current range of salaries are from start to a mid level? What are the leave entitlements, what are the super entitlements, what are the medical entitlements, what are the long service leave entitlements, what are the War zone entitlements (extra for being in dangerous situations?), what is the pension entitlement.


It is really easy say 1.5% is not enough but it really needs to be viewed in the context of what is currently being received otherwise it is just a bland argument because no one ever wants less. For me, it is impossible to say until I can understand the current as opposed to the proposed.

[THE BOOGER]

If you really want here it is

ADF - your pay and allowances (http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/pac/ADF_Pay.htm)

:)

[101RRS]

I am still very confused about what is actually happening here. can someone list what the current range of salaries are from start to a mid level? What are the leave entitlements, what are the super entitlements, what are the medical entitlements, what are the long service leave entitlements, what are the War zone entitlements (extra for being in dangerous situations?), what is the pension entitlement.

Now you are being silly - do your own research or contact Defence for the information you want. Most people serving would not have all of that type of information at their finger tips.

This is a discussion forum - not your question and answer service.

[Bigbjorn]

If you really want here it is

ADF - your pay and allowances (http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/pac/ADF_Pay.htm)

:)

Well paid, aren't they.

[THE BOOGER]

All depends remember no overtime pay, no penalty rates on call 24/7 if CO/OC decides you start at 0600 today the you do, next day may be 0800 when you sign up you come under Mil law as well as civi so many things to take into account not just the pay each fortnight:)

[frantic]

Well paid, aren't they.

No.

P.s a question should end with a question mark.

[isuzurover]

All depends remember no overtime pay, no penalty rates on call 24/7 if CO/OC decides you start at 0600 today the you do, next day may be 0800 when you sign up you come under Mil law as well as civi so many things to take into account not just the pay each fortnight:)

There are a heap of allowances and benefits which add to the base pay rate though.

There are many, many jobs where you have to work long and/or variable hours and be on call 24/7 for no extra pay.

Not saying they don't deserve every cent they get and/or a pay increase, however there are a lot of other government employees who are equally deserving of a pay rise.

[Bigbjorn]

No.

P.s a question should end with a question mark.

I could have used an exclamation mark for a statement of extraordinary fact. Not a question at all.

[frantic]

There are a heap of allowances and benefits which add to the base pay rate though. 1

There are many, many jobs where you have to work long and/or variable hours and be on call 24/7 for no extra pay. 2

Not saying they don't deserve every cent they get and/or a pay increase, however there are a lot of other government employees who are equally deserving of a pay rise.

1: show us please, don't claim with no link at least.
Here's an easy one, deployment allowance $200 a day, not increased since 2004 as not linked to pay.
2: Name a few, maybe with a link to their eba, perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders. Work with live explosives, have people try and hurt them, deal with sensitive info, eTc.
Why do you think The ADF are being used as the first APS pay freeze case?hmm...
Links to EBA's or job descriptions would help us understand who else is doing dangerous work on call 24/7 doing round the clock shiftwork in remote or O/S locations with no extra pay? Please?
Here's a link for the $200 deployment.;)
http://m.canberratimes.com.au/national/bizarre-attacks-on-deployment-allowances-make-no-sense-and-destroy-morale-20141025-11bord.html

[bob10]

Shall I continue??
Think I might ask them what a stone frigate is and see how they react....

Wifes cousin is at Garden island in Perth, they do EXTREMELY well for them selves. It has its downsides also, but it's the life they choose. Their kids are awesome!! Less trouble and better behave than I was at their age!

And my ARMY mate is still living large and enjoying retirement before 65.


Go for your life, mate. We sea going sailors called those part timers, depot stauntions. All in good fun , of course. If you didn't go to sea for at least 6 to 9 months a year, you weren't a sailor. But, that's why we joined up, wasn't it? Bob

[bob10]

So what you're saying is that some military personel have a right to complain and some don't?

Albatross and Creswell, and they spend a good amount of time at sea.
A mother came crying to us recently because her hubby just got home after being out for 2 weeks at sea flying, and was called the next day to go for an undetermined time, leaving in the morning. That's the life, she cried, but it happens. she married a navy man, she knows it.

Another family is lucky because hubby is only based in Sydney at the moment so can come home on the weekends!!

Shall I continue??
Think I might ask them what a stone frigate is and see how they react....

Wifes cousin is at Garden island in Perth, they do EXTREMELY well for them selves. It has its downsides also, but it's the life they choose. Their kids are awesome!! Less trouble and better behave than I was at their age!

And my ARMY mate is still living large and enjoying retirement before 65.


See if your friends know this song, mate. Bob


I was walking through the dockyard in a panic (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/navysong/Data%20Song/S0002.HTM)

[nugge t]

Now you are being silly - do your own research or contact Defence for the information you want. Most people serving would not have all of that type of information at their finger tips.

This is a discussion forum - not your question and answer service.

Bit touchy there I would have thought. There plenty of statements that it was unfair without any clarification of why other than "because".


Sorry for wanting to understand the full position and frankly I would be surprised if they DIDN'T know their pay and conditions. If they are that poorly informed how did they work out it is unfair because I don't think anyone outside the ADF could?

[nugge t]

Well paid, aren't they.

Looking through the charts I would have thought so.

[bob10]

Bit touchy there I would have thought. There plenty of statements that it was unfair without any clarification of why other than "because".


Sorry for wanting to understand the full position and frankly I would be surprised if they DIDN'T know their pay and conditions. If they are that poorly informed how did they work out it is unfair because I don't think anyone outside the ADF could?


Dear, oh dear. I think my earlier post was correct. Once again, no offence meant. But, I suggest, if some one is persistent, right or wrong, sooner or later, other posters will just say, can't talk to a brick wall. And , of course, that brick wall will be correct, won't they. And in their mind, all is well with the world. Funny world we live in, some times. Bob

[Andrew D]

perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders.

I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. If it read 'may' go to jail then that's a possibility. But this possibility exist in all places of employment.



Work with live explosives, have people try and hurt them, deal with sensitive info, eTc.

Try state or federal police. On top of this they can be only around the corner from where they live and be exposed to this let alone in another country.

What is the correlation between Defence and Police in respect to deaths while in service, suicides, depression, family break-ups etc. I'm thinking they would be running a close race. Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

Regards
Andrew

[nugge t]

Dear, oh dear. I think my earlier post was correct. Once again, no offence meant. But, I suggest, if some one is persistent, right or wrong, sooner or later, other posters will just say, can't talk to a brick wall. And , of course, that brick wall will be correct, won't they. And in their mind, all is well with the world. Funny world we live in, some times. Bob



With all due respect bob you have consistently said it is unfair but haven't prosecuted the case as far as I can see. It has persistently been said that a 1.5% increase is unfair but it is relative to what the current pay rate is and whether higher than inflation rises have been given in the past.


But it is not just about the rate of pay it is about the full package and no one has laid it out in a non military way so that it can be looked at rationally.


The claim has been made that loss of Xmas entitlements is unfair. Well, what are the current entitlements. I see that super is paid at over 15% and 18% when in a war zone. That might not be as high as other public service area where I am led to believe it can be 19% but it is still higher than the legislated 9.25%.


Maybe there are some swings as well as round abouts. I am trying to understand it. It is the military brick wall of secrecy that has been built.

[Greatsouthernland]

Interesting stuff...

I thought only Jacqui Lambie was this passionate, but Bob you are giving her a nudge :p

I'm not sure the ADF needs or has asked either of you for an opinion...

Surely the big man - His Excellency General the Honourable Sir Peter Cosgrove AK MC (Retd) - is testament to the respect we bestow upon our service men and women.

The 'discussion' (if it were more tolerant) about pay and pay-rises, only serves to detract from the majority of satisfied service personnel, and is (when without statistical reference for comparison) nothing short of scandalous, in my opinion.

ADF personnel are big enough to look after themselves, as some posts have demonstrated there are those 'getting on with' their military careers to their satisfaction and that of their families.

Out of respect to those who have served, those that are, and their families, surely this thread is getting out of order?? (from an ex-reservist :cool: )

[THE BOOGER]

Interesting stuff...

I thought only Jacqui Lambie was this passionate, but Bob you are giving her a nudge :p

I'm not sure the ADF needs or has asked either of you for an opinion...

Surely the big man - His Excellency General the Honourable Sir Peter Cosgrove AK MC (Retd) - is testament to the respect we bestow upon our service men and women.

The 'discussion' (if it were more tolerant) about pay and pay-rises, only serves to detract from the majority of satisfied service personnel, and is (when without statistical reference for comparison) nothing short of scandalous, in my opinion.

ADF personnel are big enough to look after themselves, as some posts have demonstrated there are those 'getting on with' their military careers to their satisfaction and that of their families.

Out of respect to those who have served, those that are, and their families, surely this thread is getting out of order?? (from an ex-reservist :cool: )

In this case they can not look after them selves they can not make public statements nor take industrial action if they thought it was appropriate they rely on the politicians and the CDF to represent their interests. None of the defence force organisation are able to appeal the tribunals decisions and to my knowledge none support the decision recently made:(

PS: As an ex-servie I have a great deal of respect for current members, asking for a better deal or to keep what they already have is not IMHO disrespectful but hopefully supporting them. But yes lets also respect other opinions that they seem to have it good.

[Greatsouthernland]

In this case they can not look after them selves they can not make public statements nor take industrial action if they thought it was appropriate they rely on the politicians and the CDF to represent their interests....:(

...but for this - ADSO engages directly with the Government and political parties to achieve its aims. By necessity it operates within the political arena on an issues basis.

The Alliance of Defence Service Organisations (ADSO) Introduction

ADSO was formally constituted in July of 2010. It was formed as result of the constituent organisations desire to work in a more cooperative and coordinated manner. The membership of the Alliance comprises the Defence Force Welfare Association (DFWA), the Naval Association of Australia (NAA), the RAAF Association (RAAFA), The Royal Australian Regiment Corporation (RARC) and Australian Special Air Services Association (ASASA). Subsequently, the Australian Peacekeepers and Peacemakers Veterans Association (APPVA), the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia (VVAA) and the Australian Federation of Totally and Permanently Incapacitated Ex Servicemen and Women Ltd (TPI Fed) became part of the Alliance.

The Alliance represents a significant number (over three million) members of Australia's Defence Family on national advocacy and representative matters to the Australian Federal Parliament and political parties.

The Alliance objective is to provide a stronger voice on issues impacting the conditions and wellbeing of currently serving and former members of the Australian Defence Force.

Its major functions are to:
1. Improve communication, cooperation and collaboration between member organisations;
2. Gain mutual advantage from the differing of expertise of each member organisation;
3. Ensure for each issue being pursued, the appropriate organisation is identified as the "lead organisation" for coordination of the actions undertaken by the Alliance; and
4. Help spread the workload and ensure the resources of the Alliance members are used to produce the most effective result.

[THE BOOGER]

Yes and from their web site

ADF members rely on the Government for fair and equitable treatment in their service conditions in a way that is unique within the Australian community. ADSO is firmly of the opinion that this expectation is not being matched by government policies and decisions. By their continued neglect of their responsibilities, successive governments have been placing an unfair burden on former ADF members to bear the consequences of their policy decisions in a way not imposed on other sections of the Australian community.

And ADSO can not appeal the tribunals descions AFAIK. And if you read what they have to say about the current wage deal they are not happy read, the fair go section of their website:)

[isuzurover]

But yes lets also respect other opinions that they seem to have it good.

I don't think anyone is saying that necessarily. People have been asking for details so they can make their minds up. There has been lots of emotion but it has taken 7 pages for the facts to start trickling out.

And before anyone pre judges me. My father and grandfathers served. One grandfather was a ww2 raf radio operator.

[101RRS]

And ADSO can not appeal the tribunals descions AFAIK.

The ADSO can advocate but not mandate. Uniform members cannot go public so tend to rely on retired members of the ADSO to be the public face.

Only the CDF, the Secretary and the Government can appeal the tribunal decision and non intend to at this stage.

Even if Senator Lambie can change the Governments mind on the pay deal - the most that can be done if for them to appeal the decision. The PM cannot just decide to change the remuneration as it is set by the DFRT.

Garry

[THE BOOGER]

I try not to prejudge anybody :D I usually get it wrong anyway :p You probably know then that servicemen and women think a bit differently to your average people. The vast majority will do the job no matter what the pay is but that is no reason for the Govt (any Govt) to take advantage of them. The pay deal is not really a deal if only one side gets a say in what it is:)

[THE BOOGER]

Yes but if the govt appealed and said they would accept say a 2.5% increase is there anybody to oppose it? :p

[Greatsouthernland]

...We sea going sailors called those part timers, depot stauntions. All in good fun , of course. If you didn't go to sea for at least 6 to 9 months a year, you weren't a sailor. But, that's why we joined up, wasn't it? Bob

This attitude (even though you may say is in 'good fun') undermines the very nature of Australia's Defence Force, it is supported by Reservists or 'part timers' as you may put it. Someone has to staff the offices on land 'Headquarters', someone has to be in 'supply', 'Legal', 'maintenance' and a range of roles that 'support' those on the front line or 'deployed'.

This sort of badgering by full-timers when I was a reservist, did nothing to encourage myself or others to remain active. Disappointing in my opinion as the ADF has and needs a diverse range of skilled professionals to maintain it's high standard, and a significant proportion of these are in the reserves, including medicos and elite infantry. Australia is not alone in this system and it is proven to maintain a diverse blend between military and civilian that allows for rapid expansion of the full-time forces if needed, hence the term 'ready-reserves'.

This attitude to 'who does what' and 'who serves where for how long' does nothing but distract from the main topic of 'general' pay and conditions. Furthermore it is an element of pommy whinging that the majority of Australian Defence professionals are thankfully in a class above.

As you were...:angel:

[101RRS]

I must admit my experience with reservists was always extremely positive. I found them to be keen and and quite capable as they were rarely thrown in at the deep end and moved through the system gaining experience when they went.

Often they were the backup that allowed personnel who were having issues at home to be granted leave to deal with their issues and their place would be temporarily taken by a Rocky.

The current Vice Chief of the Defence Force started his service life as a reservist.

Garry

[frantic]

I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. If it read 'may' go to jail then that's a possibility. But this possibility exist in all places of employment.



Try state or federal police. On top of this they can be only around the corner from where they live and be exposed to this let alone in another country.

What is the correlation between Defence and Police in respect to deaths while in service, suicides, depression, family break-ups etc. I'm thinking they would be running a close race. Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

Regards
Andrew
What a disrespectful post.
Here's a LINK, or two, something you obviously couldn't be bothered with, with your past and current claims.
I'll repeat in simple terms as your obviously allergic to google :twisted:
Disobey a direct order from a superior officer maximum jail time 2 years

DEFENCE FORCE DISCIPLINE ACT 1982 - SECT 27 Disobeying a lawful command (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dfda1982188/s27.html)

DEFENCE FORCE DISCIPLINE ACT 1982 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dfda1982188/)

As to federal police. They can and do have independent representatives. Also please show us their eba, or are,your allergies not allowing you to find it?
With certain posters on here trying to nitpick the smallest of points to defend these cuts I think of this song and just swap B in brick with the first letter of ;)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

[DiscoMick]

Leaving aside the obvious drawbacks to military life given above, the 1.5% with loss of leave is obviously an inadequate offer, by any measure - its effectively a pay cut.

[85 county]

i think the younger guys Joining the ADF do not consider the affects on there changing life's, or understand how there life's will change as time passes, partners then children etc etc.

but then what young people did? i didn't that's for sure!!

i also think its distressful that the government is trying to do a rollback on ADF staff.

in short ADF police, ambos and a host of other skills we need as a country. are underpaid---- period.

trying to draw comparisons between ADF and police is silly.

[bob10]

This attitude (even though you may say is in 'good fun') undermines the very nature of Australia's Defence Force, it is supported by Reservists or 'part timers' as you may put it. Someone has to staff the offices on land 'Headquarters', someone has to be in 'supply', 'Legal', 'maintenance' and a range of roles that 'support' those on the front line or 'deployed'.

This sort of badgering by full-timers when I was a reservist, did nothing to encourage myself or others to remain active. Disappointing in my opinion as the ADF has and needs a diverse range of skilled professionals to maintain it's high standard, and a significant proportion of these are in the reserves, including medicos and elite infantry. Australia is not alone in this system and it is proven to maintain a diverse blend between military and civilian that allows for rapid expansion of the full-time forces if needed, hence the term 'ready-reserves'.

This attitude to 'who does what' and 'who serves where for how long' does nothing but distract from the main topic of 'general' pay and conditions. Furthermore it is an element of pommy whinging that the majority of Australian Defence professionals are thankfully in a class above.

As you were...:angel:


Sorry, if you think regulars are ever going to give reserves a fair crack of the whip, you are in fantasy land. One of the best regional reserve forces, NORFORCE, NT, had/have the nickname " Jawforce" by the regular men. An old saying comes to mind. If you can't handle the heat.... And if that is the best serve you can give, mate, I think you made the right decision in giving it up. I don't need a lecture on the system of reserves in this country, but I know you don't know that. NOW "On cap, about turn, march the guilty bastard out Cox'n. " Said in good fun, in the manner it was given. :p Bob edit. if you think this is not a hot topic among serving members, all Australians, you are out of touch.

[bob10]

Furthermore it is an element of pommy whinging that the majority of Australian Defence professionals are thankfully in a class above.

As you were...:angel:


After some thought, I have come to the conclusion you have to understand the meaning of the word ASSUME. This is not a lecture, or a rant. First of all, ASSUME - you make an ass out of you and me. [ clever, isn't it. not my invention, though I wish I did. ]


I was born in the Brisbane General Hospital, served 21 years in the RAN. My Father was born in Rockhampton, served in the AIF,WW2, fighting the Japanese. My Grand father was born in Aramac, Qld. He served with the First AIF , in France, with the 49th Batttalion, and what I find extraordinary, is his Father, my Great Grandfather, was in the 49th Battalion when my Grand Father joined. In France. Before this, my great great Grand father, who was a scot., and an American whaler, jumped ship, went to Rockhampton, looking to make his fortune in gold. didn't, went west, got into cattle, & married an aboriginal woman from Alpha. Please explain to me your reference to pommy, in your post. I have shared your post with some Australian professional mates of mine, in the Redcliffe Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia. I think they are still having a quiet chuckle. Cheers mate, Bob.

[Greatsouthernland]

After some thought, I have come to the conclusion you have to understand the meaning of the word ASSUME. This is not a lecture, or a rant. First of all, ASSUME - you make an ass out of you and me. [ clever, isn't it. not my invention, though I wish I did. ]


I was born in the Brisbane General Hospital, served 21 years in the RAN. My Father was born in Rockhampton, served in the AIF,WW2, fighting the Japanese. My Grand father was born in Aramac, Qld. He served with the First AIF , in France, with the 49th Batttalion, and what I find extraordinary, is his Father, my Great Grandfather, was in the 49th Battalion when my Grand Father joined. In France. Before this, my great great Grand father, who was a scot., and an American whaler, jumped ship, went to Rockhampton, looking to make his fortune in gold. didn't, went west, got into cattle, & married an aboriginal woman from Alpha. Please explain to me your reference to pommy, in your post. I have shared your post with some Australian professional mates of mine, in the Redcliffe Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia. I think they are still having a quiet chuckle. Cheers mate, Bob.

:confused: Well good on you Bob, never said you were a pom...etc, but you whinge a lot, and it must be said that I fail to understand most of your ranting, it's very incoherent most of the time, but I guess you'll take it the wrong way...again.

[Greatsouthernland]

I was born in the Brisbane General Hospital, served 21 years in the RAN. My Father was born in Rockhampton, served in the AIF,WW2, fighting the Japanese. My Grand father was born in Aramac, Qld. He served with the First AIF , in France, with the 49th Batttalion, and what I find extraordinary, is his Father, my Great Grandfather, was in the 49th Battalion when my Grand Father joined. In France. Before this, my great great Grand father, who was a scot., and an American whaler, jumped ship, went to Rockhampton, looking to make his fortune in gold. didn't, went west, got into cattle, & married an aboriginal woman from Alpha..

And with the GREATEST respect to them all, I'm sure they were all very humble about their experience. We've all got family stories, but we eventually have to stand on our own two feet. I've got mates who were recently retrenched, this story is not very 'hot' with them at the moment, they're not chuckling about much.,Happy reminiscing bob, over and out.

[bob10]

:confused:


'put him in the scuppers with a hose pipe on him' etc :angel:


Picked you in one. I'm pleased I still have it. I would explain, but I don't really feel the need to explain to you.Bob

[bob10]

And with the GREATEST respect to them all, I'm sure they were all very humble about their experience. We've all got family stories, but we eventually have to stand on our own two feet. I've got mates who were recently retrenched, this story is not very 'hot' with them at the moment, they're not chuckling about much.,Happy reminiscing bob, over and out.
Yep, just where I thought this would go. Getting interesting now. Bob

[Bigbjorn]

Bob, give it a rest. The majority of us can only take so much Colonel Blimp, flag waving, bugle blowing, "I served my country." "I did my duty". So you were a mostly peace time sailor. Made a good living. Never in harm's way. Will probably pick up a TPI pension soon for no good reason. So lay off the "poor bugger me".

[bob10]

Bob, give it a rest. The majority of us can only take so much Colonel Blimp, flag waving, bugle blowing, "I served my country." "I did my duty". So you were a mostly peace time sailor. Made a good living. Never in harm's way. Will probably pick up a TPI pension soon for no good reason. So lay off the "poor bugger me".


Thank you Brian. For finally showing your true colours. A very typical public servant. Now, let me answer your rant. One piece at a time. Colonel Blimp? No, Chief Petty Officer. Flag waving? WTF? Yes, I served my country, and I did my duty. And I'm not ashamed to say that. What is your problem with that? Mostly peace time sailor? what is that all about? Never in harms way? Wrong again. Probably pick up a TPI pension? now I know where you are really coming from. POOR BUGGER ME? I feel sorry for you, Take your jealous public service attitude, and put yourself into harms way. BTW, during our time on the gunline, the ship I served on fired 9,712 rounds of 5 inch rounds,, & steamed 39,857 miles during the deployment. Harms way,? you just wouldn't know. Bob

[bob10]

I think it is time, Brian, for those who think I am a Colonel blimp, to identify them selves. So I can talk to all your friends. In a nice polite way , of course. But you & your friends will have to bring facts with you. I say to the moderators, I have blotted the copy book, with some outbursts of anger, and been punished,rightly. I take the time now to apologise to those I have offended. But I will not be belittled, by some jealous public servant, for doing my duty for 21 years. And belittled for no reason. I know I should move on, and ignore the fools, but, I am part of a group of people who have served this country, and on behalf of them, I say, you have no right . Simple. Bob

[Will Wallace]

Mods, please.

This is out of control.

I'm still a serving member and all this reminds me of is, "you thought your time was tough, well let me tell you of the time I had" bloody scenario.

Pull ya bloody heads in fellas.
It won't affect you.
Stop the ****ing contest.
Get on with it. Isn't that what soldiering is.

Adapt, improvise, overcome.
And as always.

FOLLOW THE SAPPER!

Will

[AndyG]

Nah, waste of breath to buy in

[bob10]

Mods, please.

This is out of control.

I'm still a serving member and all this reminds me of is, "you thought your time was tough, well let me tell you of the time I had" bloody scenario.

Pull ya bloody heads in fellas.
It won't affect you.
Stop the ****ing contest.
Get on with it. Isn't that what soldiering is.

Adapt, improvise, overcome.
And as always.

FOLLOW THE SAPPER!

Will


Will, I understand what you are saying. But there comes a time when you have to stand up & be counted. I will not tolerate any more, personal attacks against my military service. You can make light of it if you will, but I am sick of turning the other cheek. This is not a contest, not by me, anyhow. I did not serve for 21 years to have my service belittled in such a manner. However, I understand everyone has a point of view. In this case, I will agree to disagree. But there are some views I can not respect. Bob

[justinc]

Guys this really isn't the place, strain on defence force families is the topic here, you can surely put it aside , maybe even start another thread, to keep this important aspect of life connected to a member of the forces discussion on track, without any agro. Thanks

Jc

[nugge t]

And we are still no wiser as to what the actual current entitlements of ADF people are and as such still unable to make any informed comparison.


What I do know is that when there is a reluctance to share such info, it is in most cases because it doesn't support the claim being made.


Length of service, family history, belittling reservists and how many guns were fired is all very interesting but totally irrelevant in explaining why the 1.5% is inadequate.


Having said that, maybe the renumeration system should be overhauled with the pay rate directly relative to number of bullets fired in anger !

[bob10]

Guys this really isn't the place, strain on defence force families is the topic here, you can surely put it aside , maybe even start another thread, to keep this important aspect of life connected to a member of the forces discussion on track, without any agro. Thanks

Jc


Certainly. Point taken, Bob

[AndyG]

but totally irrelevant in explaining why the 1.5% is inadequate.
!

It seems universal now, from the head of BHP, down to the Gardener, that consideration as to whether the starting point is adequate or fair is not the issue, rather it is how much more one can squeeze from the ''system''.

I hesitate to comment on the ADF as a non serving member, but to me, the key issues are lack of long term Career planning that take in account family needs as far as possible, and totally inadequate post service care, be it physical and psychological, that are causing Families pain.

Broadly speaking i don't know why all Commonwealth employees , P.M, ADF, APS are not on a single scale that recognizes their unique requirements, so if the P.M gets 5%, so does the newest recruit.

[Pickles2]

This is my first post in this thread.
I see a lot of "Sabre Rattlimg" by the usual suspects.
I have never been a member of the Armed Forces, & I admire those that are.
Talk about danger, putting oneself in harms way, etc etc will not wash with me. You join the "ARMED FORCES" etc, if you don't want to be involved in that stuff, well simply, you shouldn't join. On the other hand, I say that those that do get involved, and get "in harms way" are very brave people, & deserve respect, and they have mine.....BIG TIME.
There is an exception...National Servicemen? They did not join of their own free will, they were conscripted, & for sure, in some cases, their lives were "disrupted" through no fault of their own. They also have my respect, for different reasons.
Like I said, I've never been in the services, but I have relatives and friends that are,...in the Navy, and the AirForce. And they are very happy. The Navy guy is married, spends a lot of time at sea,..loves the job,..has no complaints. I've a relative, & also a friend in the AirForce, again both very happy (both married), one has spent a lot of time in Afghanistan,....that's his job he says, and He loves it.
They've got no real issues with the pay structure, or the benefits. like us all I guess, they'd like more,....BUT WHO DOESN'T?
Pickles.

[Andrew D]

What a disrespectful post.
Here's a LINK, or two, something you obviously couldn't be bothered with, with your past and current claims.
I'll repeat in simple terms as your obviously allergic to google :twisted:
Disobey a direct order from a superior officer maximum jail time 2 years

My thoughts on your initial post :toilet: (This post my qualify as disrespectful, but I'm truly grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to use this choice emoticon)

Call it nitpicking or whatever you may like but there is due process which your post appears to be void of any reference to.


WH&S Act

31 Reckless conduct?Category 1

(1) A person commits a Category 1 offence if:
(a) the person has a health and safety duty; and
(b) the person, without reasonable excuse, engages in conduct that exposes an individual to whom that duty is owed to a risk of death or serious injury or illness; and
(c) the person is reckless as to the risk to an individual of death or serious injury or illness.
Penalty:
(a) In the case of an offence committed by an individual (other than as a person conducting a business or undertaking or as an officer of a person conducting a business or undertaking)?$300 000 or 5 years imprisonment or both.

The ADF looks soft. Only two years and no fine.

How do people live in this society with this hanging over their heads.

Did we have to keep what we post in context? Comparing apples with apples. I thought it would help for having a meaningful exchange but it appears not to be a prerequisite.

Also, on/off topic.

Regards
Andrew

[nugge t]

It seems universal now, from the head of BHP, down to the Gardener, that consideration as to whether the starting point is adequate or fair is not the issue, rather it is how much more one can squeeze from the ''system''.
.

Isn't that the very reason the current position needs to be clearly understood.


If the system, and I am assuming you mean pay and conditions in this context, have been squeezed then we would see that and it might be unreasonable. But if previous wages and conditions have been maintained then there might be room for a bit of a belt tightening.


There just seems to be a real reluctance to lay it out on the table and before others bleat that I should use google......


1. others are trying to prosecute the case so it is up to them to put the evidence to support of their claim.
2. everything seems to be written in military code like it is a national secret. Surely it isn't too hard for a laymans answer. leave = x weeks per year, ASL + x weeks per year, LSL = x weeks after x years, super = x %, pension = whatever, tax paid = x %
3. the posting of the rates was a great help but half the story so if anyone could help out with the rest it would be greatly appreciated.

[85 county]

Isn't that the very reason the current position needs to be clearly understood.


If the system, and I am assuming you mean pay and conditions in this context, have been squeezed then we would see that and it might be unreasonable. But if previous wages and conditions have been maintained then there might be room for a bit of a belt tightening.


There just seems to be a real reluctance to lay it out on the table and before others bleat that I should use google......


1. others are trying to prosecute the case so it is up to them to put the evidence to support of their claim.
2. everything seems to be written in military code like it is a national secret. Surely it isn't too hard for a laymans answer. leave = x weeks per year, ASL + x weeks per year, LSL = x weeks after x years, super = x %, pension = whatever, tax paid = x %
3. the posting of the rates was a great help but half the story so if anyone could help out with the rest it would be greatly appreciated.

well you have a point. most people me included do not understand the details.

but what i do understand is it means LESS. and i guess this would be OK if inflation was in negative numbers which it is not so really they should be getting MORE.

it really is that simple.

i know all to well how us AT guys got screwed over. operational. then a minister decided we were not. *****

[nugge t]

I understand that no one wants to get less. That point has been made numerous times and it is human nature.


But the reality is that many are getting less, many are also getting or likely to get nothing.


Many have received rises over the years in excess of inflation. I don't remember them complaining about it being too high.


Just a bit of perspective here. The difference for someone on a base of 70k between 1.5% and 3.5% is under 1500 pre tax or $28 a week.

[frantic]

My thoughts on your initial post :toilet: (This post my qualify as disrespectful, but I'm truly grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to use this choice emoticon)

Call it nitpicking or whatever you may like but there is due process which your post appears to be void of any reference to.



The ADF looks soft. Only two years and no fine.

How do people live in this society with this hanging over their heads.

Did we have to keep what we post in context? Comparing apples with apples. I thought it would help for having a meaningful exchange but it appears not to be a prerequisite.

Also, on/off topic.

Regards
Andrew

Rofl Umm according to your whs act quote everytime a adf person is ordered of base in Afghanistan, or the RAN are ordered to stop pirates their commander is in breach.
How disconnected with reality are you quoting whs in relation to adf?
Officer gives order, control that point, they disobey = far more than 2 years jail, look at my second link previous. Post. Command Officer orders x cargo moved to y on 45deg day, disobey 2 years jail. Here if the work is pointless you can stop point out the issues and find a solution.

[101RRS]

Nugget the topic of the thread is The Strain On Defence Force Families - and is more about the impact on the families when the serving member is away rather than pay and entitlements.

However for some reason you want to know the minutia of pay and conditions which you can really research yourself if you wanted. Yes an individual will know their pay and some entitlements but not all of them - that is one of the reasons there are pay, accounts and personel offices - even in the public service people need to go and see the HR peopple to find out what their entitlements are.

However the current issue is that the CPI is about 2.3% and the offered pay increase is 1.5% per year with some cuts in other areas - this amounts to a real paycut to the buying ability of military members.

More importantly unless someone can convince the CDF to lodge an appeal there is nothing that the military can do about it as the workplace negotiation legislation that applies to just about every other vocation does not apply.

The CDF has agreed the government cannot afford it but in my view that should not be his role - he should be arguing that whether a new level of pay is warranted.

A step in the right direction would be to change the legislation to allow the peak Defence personal welfare organisation the right to also appeal a DFRT decision on behalf of their members as there is no one looking after the troops at the moment.

Garry

[85 county]

I understand that no one wants to get less. That point has been made numerous times and it is human nature.


But the reality is that many are getting less, many are also getting or likely to get nothing.


Many have received rises over the years in excess of inflation. I don't remember them complaining about it being too high.


Just a bit of perspective here. The difference for someone on a base of 70k between 1.5% and 3.5% is under 1500 pre tax or $28 a week.

can you live and support a young family on $70K ?????

28 a week will just about cover the rise in there power bill, what covers the rises in every thing else?

[nugge t]

Well I have just had a look at the payrates and what should be pointed out is that the 1.5% is on top of the roughly 5.5% rise received each year in the first 10 years of service.




If I am wrong please let me know but it looks like a private at base rate gets 44,422 in year one, and that rises to 46,853 in year 2 and all the way to 79,981 after 10 years of service..that is an 80% increase for what I assume is the same duties. If a promotion is received it looks like higher rates apply. It also looks like yearly adjustments are on top of that.


It also looks like officers get duded as their increase appear to be capped t about 40k but mostly they are in the 100k plus area. Having said that a navy capt who goes from 1 year to 2 years of service this year will still get a 2.8% rise and I assume, the 1.5% which is a 4.3% pay rise for turning up. That is $142,613 to 145,5677 plus the 1.5%. Is that such a bad deal?

[nugge t]

can you live and support a young family on $70K ?????

28 a week will just about cover the rise in there power bill, what covers the rises in every thing else?
many live on much less and do not get automatic adjustment for length of service.

[101RRS]

many live on much less and do not get automatic adjustment for length of service.

Many organisations do get automatic adjustments - the Public service certainly does and when I worked as a labourer at the Newcastle Steel Works over 40 years ago we did. Note that the adjustments in the Military are in recognition of increased skills learned on the job - an is unsually 0 years, over 1 year and over 2 years - after that there are no more increases until a promotion is achieved or you get higher skilled - usually a category change to get onto a higher pay level.

The average Full Time wage in Aust in 2013/14 was $78,800 and they averaged a 2.3% pay rise in that year - ABS figures. The average soldier, airman or sailor gets a lot less.

[nugge t]

Many organisations do get automatic adjustments - the Public service certainly does and when I worked as a labourer at the Newcastle Steel Works over 40 years ago we did. Note that the adjustments in the Military are in recognition of increased skills learned on the job - an is unsually 0 years, over 1 year and over 2 years - after that there are no more increases until a promotion is achieved or you get higher skilled - usually a category change to get onto a higher pay level.

The average Full Time wage in Aust in 2013/14 was $78,800 and they averaged a 2.3% pay rise in that year - ABS figures. The average soldier, airman or sailor gets a lot less.
According to the pay rates it is automatic from year 1 to year 10 unless I am reading it wrong.


http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defence.gov.au%2Fdpe%2Fpac%2F Pay_Current_Rates.pdf&ei=tTx5VIHAI4zg8AX4poKwDQ&usg=AFQjCNFmYcUG-ne_eof0E_rZKwawzVUV-g

[101RRS]

Yes you are reading it wrong - the increments area is the vertical column with the heading Increment.

The horizontal numbers are the pay rates for the different skill grades within a given rank.

For example an electronic engineer may be on pay grade 10 but a Steward may be on pay grade 2 - even though they are the same rank and have the same time in rank.

[nugge t]

so a private with 10 years experience doing the same as when he entered can only get to the increment 2 rate?


Is there something which explains the Increment 1 to 10 jobs? No wonder anyone can understand all this.


What is the Service Allowance - $13,118 pa?

[Andrew D]

According to your whs act quote everytime a adf person is ordered of base in Afghanistan, or the RAN are ordered to stop pirates their commander is in breach.

You missed the point.

I stated in an earlier post the possibility for not following a direction may lead to visiting a jail and that this possibility exists for the majority of people in their chosen workplace as they are accountable to this Act. Hence the reference to the WHS.

ADF personnel go to jail, so do civilians. You are making the point that this is not reasonable.



Officer gives order, control that point, they disobey = far more than 2 years jail Is this not reasonable assuming due process is followed?



Command Officer orders x cargo moved to y on 45deg day, disobey 2 years jail. Is this not reasonable assuming due process is followed?

There is again a lacking of context so your response could go anywhere.

Regards
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Thank you Brian. For finally showing your true colours. A very typical public servant. Now, let me answer your rant. One piece at a time. Colonel Blimp? No, Chief Petty Officer. Flag waving? WTF? Yes, I served my country, and I did my duty. And I'm not ashamed to say that. What is your problem with that? Mostly peace time sailor? what is that all about? Never in harms way? Wrong again. Probably pick up a TPI pension? now I know where you are really coming from. POOR BUGGER ME? I feel sorry for you, Take your jealous public service attitude, and put yourself into harms way. BTW, during our time on the gunline, the ship I served on fired 9,712 rounds of 5 inch rounds,, & steamed 39,857 miles during the deployment. Harms way,? you just wouldn't know. Bob

Bob, why are you so hostile to public servants? After all, were you not in government service your entire working life? twenty-one years in the navy and 20 years in the post office. Total job security in the navy and the post office was not the sort of organisation that sacked staff. I joined the public service aged almost 50 when I thought I was getting fed up and too old for the 6 day 60-70 hour weeks I was working in my successful machine shop. 32 years in the private sector, sometimes an employee and sometimes self-employed. No job security in the private sector until recently with the unfair dismissal legislation. Out the door on a minutes notice was common. Many firms had no superannuation schemes until the compulsory superannuation levy.

[frantic]

You missed the point.

I stated in an earlier post the possibility for not following a direction may lead to visiting a jail and that this possibility exists for the majority of people in their chosen workplace as they are accountable to this Act. Hence the reference to the WHS.

ADF personnel go to jail, so do civilians. You are making the point that this is not reasonable.


Is this not reasonable assuming due process is followed?


Is this not reasonable assuming due process is followed?

There is again a lacking of context so your response could go anywhere.

Regards
Andrew
No Andrew, your trying to bury the message in bull****. Want to act like a lawyer go to court.
Unfortunately your words where no jail originally, edit later.
Any civil employee told by their boss in 40degree heat to dig a pit for poo, can walk, any civilian who gets a call from his wife, kids in hospital, baby's here etc,can jump in the car and go home. At worst they will lose their job or a days pay. In the ADF you can go to jail. In every other profession you can have some form of industrial action, cops included( fine ban anyone?), not the adf( how about no facing the camera whenever a pollie is there . If they tried they would again be potentially up for jail.
Maybe in your head this is no different to a negligent act but to most people and in reality it's a major difference in commitment.
If you or anyone goes on strike or stops work, as long as it does not put anyone at risk you cannot go to jail. If a soldier stops work he can. Is that clear enough.
Just like you comment on deaths in service relative to cops, what a line. Do you exclude 1900-1946? We had cops from 1856. Since 2007 there have been 41 adf deaths by enemy fire in Afghanistan with about 1500 deployed. Compare that to about 4 cops in Vic over 25 years and 12,000 cops.

[TerryO]

Frantic keep it civil please. You know what the rules are so abide by them thank you.

[bob10]

Bob, why are you so hostile to public servants? After all, were you not in government service your entire working life? twenty-one years in the navy and 20 years in the post office. Total job security in the navy and the post office was not the sort of organisation that sacked staff. I joined the public service aged almost 50 when I thought I was getting fed up and too old for the 6 day 60-70 hour weeks I was working in my successful machine shop. 32 years in the private sector, sometimes an employee and sometimes self-employed. No job security in the private sector until recently with the unfair dismissal legislation. Out the door on a minutes notice was common. Many firms had no superannuation schemes until the compulsory superannuation levy.


You miss the point. I am not hostile to public servants , I find your attitude to service men & women offensive. Bob

[AndyG]

Bob,
So posts 101 & 102 were not a general splat against Public Servants, but an individual, in that case I misread.

Diverging, this thread made me realize that 10% of our expat employees have suffered a life threatening injury in the last two years. Axe to the back of the head and a steel spike through lung and spine.probabilty in 1st year in country is 25%.
I been here 53 years so my odds shd be ok.

So Civilian life can have its moments too ! Cattle dog in the car improves the odds too:D

[bob10]

Bob,
So posts 101 & 102 were not a general splat against Public Servants, but an individual, in that case I misread.

Diverging, this thread made me realize that 10% of our expat employees have suffered a life threatening injury in the last two years. Axe to the back of the head and a steel spike through lung and spine.probabilty in 1st year in country is 25%.
I been here 53 years so my odds shd be ok.

So Civilian life can have its moments too ! Cattle dog in the car improves the odds too:D


Andy, I have nothing against Public servants, civilians, [ I am one] Just will stand up for our servicemen & women, every time. That brings down the wrath of a certain few members, who have their own agenda, it would seem. Don't knock the servicemen & women, I will stand up every time. Foolish me , I guess. But that is me. Bob

[justinc]

Cmon you lot, I know it can be a pretty touchy subject but it is STILL becoming a tit for tat bickering getting nowhere series of posts, AGAIN!!. It's like breakfast time with teenage children arguing over who drank the last of the milk... :-(

Jc

[bob10]

Cmon you lot, I know it can be a pretty touchy subject but it is STILL becoming a tit for tat bickering getting nowhere series of posts, AGAIN!!. It's like breakfast time with teenage children arguing over who drank the last of the milk... :-(

Jc


Yes, but this is far more important than that. You stand up for what you believe in. or not. I make valid points, and can back them up, with facts, if needed. Justinc, you can make a joke of this if you want. It is not a joke. Bob

[justinc]

Mmmm, Bob I can assure you I do not treat any of this as humorous. Least of all peoples life experiences, and views on this subject.

I was merely pointing out that the original feeling/ direction of this thread has become lost in all the bickering and so on.

I am sure you can appreciate where I am coming from.

JC

[Trundle]

It's interesting to read this thread, and take from it the obvious personalities and their passions, however, the biggest thing that comes to mind, is that of all the people I know that have joined any of the forces in the last 15 years, duty to country has not been a consideration, instead other factors like a free degree, better pay for an apprentice, my brother/sister/mate earns good money for doing sweet FA - why not me?, better than what I'm doing, I don't know what I want to do yet, are the typical reasons.
Off the back of those reasons, it is a choice born by want, not necessity, nor countries need. And many, take their experience and/or qualifications out of the defence force to earn a good dollar in the private sector. And would do so regardless of the strains felt, as the defence force was a means to an end.
Others I know have completed their degrees at a financial cost, or their apprenticeship living at home, or gone mining at a huge personal cost.
But everyone of these people has considered their options, and made a judgement call based on pay, conditions, future, family, as well as the downfalls of their chosen path, be that low pay, or the possibility of being deployed, or being away from their family for over 75% of the year.
This is not meant as a slight to the career members or anyone else currently or past serving, but as an observation of those that I know personally who have joined the defence force and their reasons. They have all treated it as I would consider any job prospect and weighed up the pros and cons.

[bob10]

It's interesting to read this thread, and take from it the obvious personalities and their passions, however, the biggest thing that comes to mind, is that of all the people I know that have joined any of the forces in the last 15 years, duty to country has not been a consideration, instead other factors like a free degree, better pay for an apprentice, my brother/sister/mate earns good money for doing sweet FA - why not me?, better than what I'm doing, I don't know what I want to do yet, are the typical reasons.
Off the back of those reasons, it is a choice born by want, not necessity, nor countries need. And many, take their experience and/or qualifications out of the defence force to earn a good dollar in the private sector. And would do so regardless of the strains felt, as the defence force was a means to an end.
Others I know have completed their degrees at a financial cost, or their apprenticeship living at home, or gone mining at a huge personal cost.
But everyone of these people has considered their options, and made a judgement call based on pay, conditions, future, family, as well as the downfalls of their chosen path, be that low pay, or the possibility of being deployed, or being away from their family for over 75% of the year.
This is not meant as a slight to the career members or anyone else currently or past serving, but as an observation of those that I know personally who have joined the defence force and their reasons. They have all treated it as I would consider any job prospect and weighed up the pros and cons.
Thank you Trundle. Bit of an eye opener. I guess I am a dinasour. I joined to serve, Bob

[bob10]

Mmmm, Bob I can assure you I do not treat any of this as humorous. Least of all peoples life experiences, and views on this subject.

I was merely pointing out that the original feeling/ direction of this thread has become lost in all the bickering and so on.

I am sure you can appreciate where I am coming from.

JC


I can. Thank you, Bob

[Trundle]

I joined to serve, Bob

And thank you to yourself and others for doing so.

[EastFreo]

Will start this post by declaring I am very much in favour of our servicemen and women being paid considerably more than currently.

I think people perhaps forget that often this is more than a job. Sure not always but sometimes, and in my experience of my military friend, it is about doing something for your country and in this case it entails putting your life on the line. This, in my opinion, is something in this country we do not value enough. And in my opinion the same goes for the Police.

So I will say thank you to all the men and women who are doing what I and I think any others of us should have done and served our country so I support them getting all our support

[Blknight.aus]

Some of you speak of a career, some of you speak of a job ..

I joined up and had a plan, which lasted all of three months, and took me nearly 7 years to get back on track.

Then when the opportunity to do what it was that I had signed up to do came up all of a sudden I couldn't go because I was med class three.

In the mean time could I train up this dude to take my place. I did this and overall at the end of the day he didn't pass the course, no fault of mine, but that's ok since we've found out I'm mec class three because I'm pregnant I should be able to go. Nope we will send him anyway because he can get the pre-requisite skill set.

I left the first time because of it and got completely frustrated to the depths of hell and back over the exit process, it took me weeks just to get the paper work in and when I finally got out, just to add injury to the insults that left me feeling so empty, my medals, just got handed over to my now ex wife to give to me. She just gave them tonne and said someone dropped these of for me to give to you, open up the envelope nd there you go, there's my gong.

Thanks.

I joined up again and at the end of a long story, after years of stress and a handful of events that should have never happened and thanks to the ineptitude of the way they were handled others no way they can ever be proven or delt with, I've got just a job, every effort I've ever made to restart what I though my career should be. Had been shot down. and so far for the blast two years all the add has effectively done is wanted me tonseperare my pwrsoanl life from my work life so I can do my job.

So now what was my family is now no more and that's irecoverable I spent the last three years struggling to hold it together and failed, so I got on with moving on my life and I've called on more support from this forum than I've the right to and tha is for those who have helped.

But I've moved on and all the problems with my personal life are all but gone so why am I still getting more and more stressed out? Why can't i sleep? Why dont I feel better.

Here's why,

I lay here wondering if the problems in my personal life weren't the cause of the stress that wrecked me? What if it was the military? And it fits because now I don't have any problems left in my personal life the stress must becoming from somewhere and since the only thing in my life is the military....

Here's why I think it happened.

Everyone just wants to cover their ass, they want to make sure that there were no problems on their watch. in 18 odd months I haven't averaged more than 5 hours sleep in a night and most of that's broken. In the last 4ish months I'm down to three and most recently I'm down to less than 2 hours of broken sleep a night. In the last week I've had 2 nights I haven't slept and tonight will make three.

It's all stress related I've got the psorisis that sometimes weeps blood to prove it,.

But everyone just wants me to compartmentalize the issuse deal with them.one little bit aat a time, which is great for a while but if you partially flood or overload enough compartments you still sink the ship even though no one part completely failed.

The simple truth, now fewer than 5 times I've been suicidal the first time it was the simple action of one person that put an end to it happening, I had it planned, bought and sharpened the k ice and everything. In the irony of twists it was her letting me help her and using that very knife to help get some stitches out that made the difference, I had her leg pinned under my arm and was working the stiches free worried I was hurting her and the whole time she was apologising for holding me so tightly because she didn't want to hurt me. It was enough, just enough but at the time it was more than anyone else was doing. Twice more that same girl was there for me, when no one wkswwo
The most recent time she couldn't be, so I tried the only system left that I should have been able to rely on, only to find the number didn't work, I'd even tied the noose, I sat in the foyer balled up quiet alone and the only reason I didnt, I couldn't find somewhere I could get up to that had enough drop height for that to work.

I've Been sent to psych but again, it's an ass cover, all I have to do is lie convincingly to them. It easy bunch of yes no questions and your food to go, say the right words tell them you have a coping strategy and the is for coming see you later off you go.

And now I have a new CO, top bloke he's pretty Much every thing I thought the new doctor was going to turn out to be and we've gone the hoops again and I'll go theough the hoops again. The thing that I'm most disspointed in myself with him is while he was going through what he had to go through with me he prided me for my efforts on the trip I did when I first met him, e used the words Herculean effort and I never had the integrity to tell him, no sir, that was all of about thirty percent.

They preach at us that diversity is important but so rarely do they really listen, all I wanted from my career was to do my job, to fix things to get it so that other people could use the things I fix to do their jobs to keep all of you safe. Then to go on and do my bit and pass on the knowledge and skills to the next generations that would follow in my steps to have robust and honest answers as to why we do what we do. To pass on all the skills the defence gave me.

But now, no I don't have the faith that i could ever look an iet in the eye and be honest about why we do what we do even if I could I doubt they'd care.

I love my job, when I get to do it, and now I can't even do that. Everyone wants to tell me there's more to life than just work but its not work, doing my job when I get to do it is fantastic if I could work out how to get the money grubbers of my back and work out free food and shelter I'd do my job for free, I do it in my job in my spare time because I like it that much, some of you know of it there's not much better in my world than coming out and putting my hands on tools and using those skills to help people and make friends along the way. And it's even better when I get to pass along the knowledge that helps others get that little bit more out of what they've got to work with, use it a little better make it last a little longer. To do for others what they can't do for themselves,

Diversity, treat each case on its merits they say, so why does everyone think money is so important to me? And they must think it because after taking on nearly three months of perhaps the worst course I will ever be assosciated with just to get the ability to get on and do my job I now can't do my job all I get told is at least I get paid more. I don't want the extra money, I want the job and it's not there

Everyone wants to always know why I go on so many exercises, it's simple, that's where I get to do my job, hats when I get to wind it up and actually do what it is I'm supposed to do when generally speaking the support systems that are mnt to be there to enable me.to.do my.job are actually there and working like they should. I've seen it on my one shot overseas with the army to swing loads from a crane but I can only.imagine what it's like to be able to do this job I'm supposed to have live, inliked driving cranes and doing it to help out in the Solomon's was magnificently better but that was just a job, to be able to do something I'm so passionate about to support the thing I used to believe so deeply in... That I can only.imagine and will probably only be ever able to imagine, I'm too broken, the honour from doing its gone,

Some people have asked me why im going to tindal? Why I cut short a posting that if I was told I'd have to give up my career progression but I could stay here doing this job till I retired I'd have jumped at in a second? Simple the girl that I have to thank not fewer than three times for keeping me here so I can keep trying to fix the things that don't fix themselves got sent there, she made it so easy to fall in love with her and she's the only support the defence has had to offer she has always made me feel as though I have something to offer always told.me tht I make her fell better, like she has something to smile about. And again truthfully it was the hardest decision I've ever made in my life and it took me less than a heartbeat to make. When some one tells you they love you and keeps on the phone for hours just to make sure your still there asks you if you could come to tindal with them you say yes. Of they hadn't posted me I'd have quit and walked, let's face it after you get told your not welcome at the birth of your son, there's not a lot left here for me.


There's more, a lot more but I'm prob a my already going to get in enough crap over this.

But here's an invitte to whoever signed off on out reduced travelling rates, I don't know what you think they pay us but most of your defence force doesn't drive new flash cars we drive second hand ones because its what we can aford, the roads out there are no better than they used to be, Some of them are worse, I'm.going to drive from Ipswich to tindal, feel free to park yourself in the passanfer seat of my car while I drive up towing a trailer full of thenstiff I've worked so hard to own that toll won't move for me because "that's not authorised to be moved, normal.people wouldn't have that"

[AndyG]

Dave,
You have a whole forum of friends here, ready and willing to lend you a hand or an ear anytime they can. Best of luck in Tindel and hopefully a new start.

Andrew

[Ralph1Malph]

Well chaps, I have been following this thread for a while, but have resisted the urge to respond as I wanted to see the colour of everyone's flags :D.
I am by no means an expert, but I feel relatively entitled to comment as (many know already) I am a current serving member, 33 years and counting with a rank that contains the words 'Sergeant Major'. FWIW, there are not many of those, less than 700 in the whole Army and I am in a senior sub group of less than 200.
I reckon many posters to this thread are well intentioned and generally read the mood surrounding this issue well. Here's my perspective.
Service in the ADF is very disjointed and stressful. The level of stress varies across roles, locations, families and outlook. Increasingly, it affects families more so. The main stressors are the constant threat of routine disruption and the general uncertainty to life. By this I mean not knowing (generally) what the day will bring or when it will bring it.
Remember, ADF folks don't control their life routine, we signed it over to the crown upon enlistment.:o
In some ways the issue is very similar to the mining industry. Mining companies require their employees to live 'differently' to most Australians and to do this they know they have to sweeten the deal...usually by remuneration. Defence is the same. It requires 'service before self' and so over the years a number of mechanisms and benefits were devised to compensate or sweeten the deal. Few of these are left now.
The intangible benefits were the most effective. Those little unwritten gems that just make it better. Most of those were legislated away over the years due to WHS or FBT. Yes FBT....when you are taxed on perks, you stop giving them.
It's all in the fine print. Some have already mentioned examples.
We still get 'no cost relocation' but only those items average Australians would have...hang on...you just said we are not average...
Free medical Yup. Great. Benchmarked to the 'accepted public health care standard' albeit, much shorter waiting times. Where this is noticeable is in allied health, prosthetics, hearing aids, glasses etc.
Subsidised housing. Still a great condition of service, but did you know the subsidy percentage has fallen from 70%, 30 years ago to 50% now and rumours are afoot to 'normalise' the subsidy to that of contemporary Australia...around 35%.

Anyways, it's not always about the headlines. I noticed today that PM Abbott has asked the remuneration tribunal to reconsider the conditions of service bit of the DRT ruling. This is spot on and captures the mood perfectly. It was never about the pay, always about the conditions. Always has been. Always will be. Those little and not so little things that add up and make service before self bearable and attractive.

Just quickly, we are fighting demographics today. Kids don't join for adventure and pride like we did back when. It's all about the now, the money and them.

To finish up as it's brekky time I ask a question...
How many births, marriages, birthdays, graduation, kids sports and weddings are you prepared to miss before it affects the home front?

If you feel the need to flame me coz of my comments, remember, I know what marque of car you drive!:p

Ralph

[Greatsouthernland]

Hi Dave,

all the best for Tindal, I'm sure things happen for a reason. I remember the place from a 'brief' stopover about 24 years ago when the C130 I was a passenger in (slept on the roof of the LR's in the hold) landed en route to Darwin for a 2 week Kangaroo exercise, an amazing experience I will always cherish. The ADF was good to me and I would have liked to stay on, but opportunity sent me in another direction.

I share the grief of the stress induced psoriasis and sleep deprivation for other reasons, I'm sure you've heard all the advice so I won't go there.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and reminding me of that short stay at Tindal, one of many experiences I thank the ADF for, albeit in my very short service.

All the best!

[Greatsouthernland]

Well here it is.

I don't think Lambie is being a responsible Senator by voting against everything as a 'threat' to push the pay rise to 3%. Just my opinion....but the senate is more important than to be used in this way (just my uneducated tax paying entitled opinion).

Abbott backs down on allowances in defence 'Fair Pay War' | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/01/deadline-looms-defence-fair-pay-war)

[frantic]

Well here it is.

I don't think Lambie is being a responsible Senator by voting against everything as a 'threat' to push the pay rise to 3%. Just my opinion....but the senate is more important than to be used in this way (just my uneducated tax paying entitled opinion).

Abbott backs down on allowances in defence 'Fair Pay War' | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/01/deadline-looms-defence-fair-pay-war)
Is this a warm up or the final dive? As it's only a 1/2 backflip 90 degree turn on a "fixed position" . Who is expecting the full 180 degree turn double backflip next?

[Greatsouthernland]

Is this a warm up or the final dive? As it's only a 1/2 backflip 90 degree turn on a "fixed position" . Who is expecting the full 180 degree turn double backflip next?

Anything's possible these days...:D Just in time for Christmas too!

[Andrew D]

your trying to bury the message in bull****.

Just trying to see where you are coming from.


Unfortunately your words where no jail originally, edit later.

Never were the words 'no jail' used, so maybe you have read something that was not there. It would explain to me the myopic exchange.

For the record you proceeded to reply to a quote without the words 'no jail' that you claim I changed. Once again the context is not there. Ensue the confusion.


Just like you comment on deaths in service relative to cops, what a line. Do you exclude 1900-1946?

Why limit it to 1900-1946. I see no point in this.

Anyway, agree to disagree.

Regards
Andrew

P.S. Good to see some guys with relevant experience have finally stated the facts around the topic.

[frantic]

Just trying to see where you are coming from.



Never were the words 'no jail' used, so maybe you have read something that was not there. It would explain to me the myopic exchange. whoops sorry maybe "does not exist " means something different in your version of English? You then proceed to try and compare a negligent act to simply Disobeying an order

For the record you proceeded to reply to a quote without the words 'no jail' that you claim I changed. Once again the context is not there. Ensue the confusion. No again you claimed it "does not exist ", I then provided the link to the law and act.



Why limit it to 1900-1946. I see no point in this. Again your incomprehesible comparison of death rates between cops and the adf would only work if you specifically selected certain time frames. With 102,787 adf members killed since 1885 cops deaths are less than 1% that number since 1803, (759 police). Also about 98% of cops deaths are road accidents so even more pointless a comparison.
Deaths as a result of service with Australian units | Australian War Memorial (http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_casualties/)

Anyway, agree to disagree.

Regards
Andrew

P.S. Good to see some guys with relevant experience have finally stated the facts around the topic.

Your original post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frantic View Post
perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders.
I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. If it read 'may' go to jail then that's a possibility. But this possibility exist in all places of employment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frantic View Post
Work with live explosives, have people try and hurt them, deal with sensitive info, eTc.
Try state or federal police. On top of this they can be only around the corner from where they live and be exposed to this let alone in another country.

What is the correlation between Defence and Police in respect to deaths while in service, suicides, depression, family break-ups etc. I'm thinking they would be running a close race. Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

Regards
Andrew

Now you may want to continue to argue a point that even the pm has half conceded fine. But at least acknowledge where you made a mistake or two?1 I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. 2.Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

[bob10]

Now would be a good time to post the RSL's official position on this. Worth a read, Bob


http://www.rslqld.org/issue-11-2-december-2014/issue-11-wra-pay-case/

[bob10]

ABC 7.30 report, Bob


7.30 - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/)

[Andrew D]

Whoops sorry maybe "does not exist " means something different in your version of English?


perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders.

I took your post above quite literal. Nobody just goes to jail. (ha ha to myself). There is due process and even the section of the Act use the word 'if'. So we are disagreeing on semantics.

Did I change my post? No, and I acknowledge the 'whoops sorry'.


No again you claimed it "does not exist ", I then provided the link to the law and act.

Note to self not to take what people post here too serious (literal).



comparison of death rates between cops and the adf would only work if you specifically selected certain time frames. Ok, and these are your words. You might be right but then you may also be wrong however I'm sure if an analysis existed relating to the two there would be some very similar characteristics in the data.

Neither of us stated a timeframe so the above statement is a possibility.





Now you may want to continue to argue a point that even the pm has half conceded fine. But at least acknowledge where you made a mistake or two?1 I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. 2.Correlation coefficient close enough to 1


I acknowledge


In a literal sense the document does not exist. Does a document exist detailing disobeying a superior and the likely punishment, yes.
Well, even by your own admission this would be a possibility over defined timeframes, however on a serious note I think the other elements I noted, suicides, depression, family break-ups, would be up there.


Regards
Andrew

[frantic]

I took your post above quite literal. Nobody just goes to jail. (ha ha to myself). There is due process and even the section of the Act use the word 'if'. So we are disagreeing on semantics.

Did I change my post? No, and I acknowledge the 'whoops sorry'.



Note to self not to take what people post here too serious (literal).


Ok, and these are your words. You might be right but then you may also be wrong however I'm sure if an analysis existed relating to the two there would be some very similar characteristics in the data.

Neither of us stated a timeframe so the above statement is a possibility.






I acknowledge


In a literal sense the document does not exist. Does a document exist detailing disobeying a superior and the likely punishment, yes.
Well, even by your own admission this would be a possibility over defined timeframes, however on a serious note I think the other elements I noted, suicides, depression, family break-ups, would be up there.


Regards
Andrew

The content and context of your semantics has so far deviated from the OP, and degenerated into pure " white noise " in an attempt to justify that which has already been deemed, in part, by its instigator a step to far.

[Greatsouthernland]

Fellas!

Clearly Tony A read what's been posted here and changed the direction. Anymore discussion is irrelevant.

:lock: someone?

[Tassiefender]

Well, I am loath to write here considering the deviation from the original thread post. But, for what it is worth... I am in the process of leaving the ADF after 20 years' enjoyable and rewarding service. Why? Well, I'd love to stay on many fronts but the fact is my kids are starting high school and sometimes, it is simply time to acknowledge that all things are not simply about one's self!
I had 13 postings up and down the Eastern sea board, deployed on four operations, was absent often in the course of duty, and yet have a happy and sustainable marriage with two well-adjusted kids. That is not to say life in the ADF is not challenging... It is hard to change states, spousal employment, kids' schools and the like. But that is not unique to the ADF these days. Likewise, it is hard seeing families adjust, our skyping your kids at Christmas from Afghanistan - yep. Noted.
But really, it is a life we chose. And it is the life I decided to give up this year with my children starting high school. No buts. No excuses.
For what it is worth, DHA have their weaknesses... But they also gave me an exceptional house under pretty good conditions for the best part of my adult life. And now I am paying a mortgage like a normal person, their faults are not as bad as they once seemed! No DHA to fix my hot water service or flickering power point now!!!
The hard facts are that service is voluntary. You join and serve because you want to. The life is hugely rewarding, but it comes with a downside that, due to the nature of the job and the organisation, cannot be totally negated. Hence why all of us must make a choice to either: 1. continue, or 2. leave when the circumstances dictate.
I here the complaints re: pay. Frankly, we (ADF) are better paid than most (and for pretty good reason). If the Government's wallet is empty, then perhaps we should pause for a bit too. No comparison can be made against other public and private sector employment - the conditions are too different.
I loved my time. I respect those who did serve, still serve, and also those that support them. But simply serving is not an excuse for entitlement above others - after all most of us seek to contribute to society in some way.
My thoughts only. To all on this forum - please don't attempt to chest beat or bash another's sense of service or pride. There are other non-LR forums for that purpose of you are so inclined. Now, let's get back to LRs... Therefore, for God's own sake can anyone tell me how to put a signature block on my posts please???

[AndyG]

Tassiefender, a very well written piece,

Now click on UserCP, top left

[101RRS]

Therefore, for God's own sake can anyone tell me how to put a signature block on my posts please???


Tassiefender, a very well written piece,

Now click on UserCP, top left

I believe you need to be a subscriber to get a signature block.

[Pickles2]

Well, I am loath to write here considering the deviation from the original thread post. But, for what it is worth... I am in the process of leaving the ADF after 20 years' enjoyable and rewarding service. Why? Well, I'd love to stay on many fronts but the fact is my kids are starting high school and sometimes, it is simply time to acknowledge that all things are not simply about one's self!
I had 13 postings up and down the Eastern sea board, deployed on four operations, was absent often in the course of duty, and yet have a happy and sustainable marriage with two well-adjusted kids. That is not to say life in the ADF is not challenging... It is hard to change states, spousal employment, kids' schools and the like. But that is not unique to the ADF these days. Likewise, it is hard seeing families adjust, our skyping your kids at Christmas from Afghanistan - yep. Noted.
But really, it is a life we chose. And it is the life I decided to give up this year with my children starting high school. No buts. No excuses.
For what it is worth, DHA have their weaknesses... But they also gave me an exceptional house under pretty good conditions for the best part of my adult life. And now I am paying a mortgage like a normal person, their faults are not as bad as they once seemed! No DHA to fix my hot water service or flickering power point now!!!
The hard facts are that service is voluntary. You join and serve because you want to. The life is hugely rewarding, but it comes with a downside that, due to the nature of the job and the organisation, cannot be totally negated. Hence why all of us must make a choice to either: 1. continue, or 2. leave when the circumstances dictate.
I here the complaints re: pay. Frankly, we (ADF) are better paid than most (and for pretty good reason). If the Government's wallet is empty, then perhaps we should pause for a bit too. No comparison can be made against other public and private sector employment - the conditions are too different.
I loved my time. I respect those who did serve, still serve, and also those that support them. But simply serving is not an excuse for entitlement above others - after all most of us seek to contribute to society in some way.
My thoughts only. To all on this forum - please don't attempt to chest beat or bash another's sense of service or pride. There are other non-LR forums for that purpose of you are so inclined. Now, let's get back to LRs... Therefore, for God's own sake can anyone tell me how to put a signature block on my posts please???
Thank You. A totally honest man, without a barrow to push,.....except reality,.....& the truth.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Thank You. A totally honest man, without a barrow to push,.....except reality,.....& the truth.
Pickles.


:no2: Oh dear, Bob

[Will Wallace]

Did I not say this ages ago?

Get on with the job.

And as always,


Follow the Sapper.