Why Your Power Bill Still Hurts.

[disco man]

As Queensland prepares to sell the long term rights to billions of dollars in revenues from our coal fired generators and electricity distribution networks,you don't hear much about why our power bills have doubled in the past few years. Sure,we have had the carbon tax removed,a 9% saving on what we otherwise would have paid,and soon the Renewable Energy Target will be zapped,providing further savings or costs,depending on who you believe. But you don't hear much about the key reason our power bills have soared,which is massive over investment in our electricity networks. Funny that. More than half of the average household electricity bill is spent on network costs. Some say more than half the $45 billion pumped into upgrading our poles and wires nationally since 2009 has been invested unnecessarily. A perverse incentive allows privatised and government owned entities to boost their profits by growing their assets. Utilities get a 10% return on the money they invest,guaranteed by our so called regulator. It is a gravy train at the expense of consumers which now looks like being passed on through asset sales to the private equity and savings fund in Australia and around the world.

It is a scandalous state of affairs where you'd think the community's representatives would be calling it for what it is,unmitigated greed. In Queensland,little is said about increasing the fixed charge component of our power bills,for some tariffs by hundreds of per cent,to shore up the profits of our coal fired generators against falls in consumption. Those bill changes were introduced quietly in July. A Queensland Competition Authority,compliant to government,makes no requirements on Ergon Energy to show this on peoples power bills. Throw this into the mix of a state election turned into a referendum on asset sales and you begin to relise why government MP's are jumping at shadows. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Governments need to look beyond the short-term interests of generators and distributors to the long term interests of the community.

[Vern]

So whats the average power bill? $700 a quarter? You get pretty good value for for money for your $700, my phone bill a year costs more😕

[steane]

At least $1000 a qtr for power. Last qtr was $2000. House is smaller than avg and we made the mistake of trying to keep our babies room warm in winter with an oil filled heater. No gas, all electric.

In Melbourne 4 years ago our qrtly power bill was $400 plus a $200 gas bill.

I suspect we are paying for infrastructure (as part of the deal done with govt) and filling the gap in income for the providers created by solar. Whatever it is its pretty disgusting. I can see a lot of pensioners endangering their lives in weather extremes by trying to avoid the cost associated with heating and cooling.

[THE BOOGER]

Strange that only 2 years ago after the big fires there were claims that infrastructure was years behind as successive govts had been pulling money out of the system to make profits look good for when they sold;)

[PhilipA]

Hindsight is always 20-20.
Everyone doing the network planning was estimating 5-10% per annum demand increases from aircons, and they had to develop the networks for peak demand.

I can recall only say 5 years ago the government was saying we would have to build 5 new coal fired power stations.

You could argue that they were pretty dumb , but engineers are not economists and didn't see how people reacted to price signals.

Turns out the elasticity of demand is quite high and people reacted by fitting LEDs and buying new more efficient stuff when prices went up.

Solar panels also reduced demand , but arguably not peak demand.

I read an article on the weekend that states that now our networks are all in the wrong places but I don't really buy that argument.

I am pretty happy at Avoca Beach as I have only had one long blackout in 8 years and that was when Newcastle was flooded by the big offshore low.

I reckon that you would be far unhappier if the power went out at 5PM on a 40C day for several hours, than if you have to pay another $50 a year for power.
Regards Philip A

[JDNSW]

Strange that only 2 years ago after the big fires there were claims that infrastructure was years behind as successive govts had been pulling money out of the system to make profits look good for when they sold;)

I think you may be confusing two issues - maintenance and expansion. The system encourages expansion of assets rather than maintenance, so they have been happily beefing up the grid while skimping on maintenance, although this may have stopped after a couple of court judgements against power companies after the Victorian fires.

The confusion was probably deliberately helped along by power companies blurring the line between maintenance and expansion.

John

[350RRC]

I have a property with two smart meters, side by side. They were installed after I bought it........ one for house, one for shed. I don't live there an use stuff all power.

The major % increase has been in the service delivery. Not surprised when the supplier (or their contractor) did the annual tree lop in Feb, then came back in August and did it again!

Spose eucalypts must grow really fast here haha.

DL

[Hoges]

FWIW: for comparison... Just SWMBO and I. Off-peak HWS. The average consumption is between 18.5 and 21KWH/day ...tracked daily usage over the past 5 yrs. That includes one fridge for 6m of the year, 2 (just regular mid size boxes) in summer. We get good breezes on the hill where we live, have ceiling fans, so rarely use aircon... if we do it's for 4 hrs at night maybe three nights out of 7 to cool the humidity... occasionally for heating in winter. highest wattage light bulb is 7W (LED). Probably 6 or 7 lights on average burning at any one time.
We pay 28.3C/kwh.(Origin energy) My nephew in Canberra pays 16.2c/KWH... so our quarterly bills are between $500-600/qtr . All electric, can't get the natural gas line extended although it stops 60m along the street from us and 10 other homes which were built after 1997! Several of the others have large gas bottles delivered...

Still trying to work out where the 18kwh/day is used. I have thought about solar panels...

EDIT: Article recently in local paper talked about the skyrocketing costs due to added complexity of network controls as a result of solar panels feeding in to the grid...I don't have any clue as to how much of an added cost this is.../was//will be

[numpty]

I live with my partner in her house and she has a 2kw solar system feeding into the grid. Off peak hot water, (we need to go solar) 1 fridge, supply pump for water (we are on tank supply) and try not to use aircon (as she freaks out at how much extra it uses) Gas heating in winter from cylinders.

Lauraine checks our useage each day and we average around 14 kw. Air con will up this considerably if in use.

The greatest cost increase that I see is nothing to do with how much power we use but in supply costs, which are a total rip off. Cost per Kwh here is around 31 cents.

If we could afford to we would put another 2 kw solar on and battery storage.

[JDNSW]

I find my average use is around 5-6kWh per day. Fridge, freezer, microwave CFl lights, water pump, TV, computer etc. Cooking is gas or wood, heating is wood, hot water is solar boosted with wood. No aircon, fans but are rarely used.

I suspect a lot of your usage is heating water. As you say, you need to go solar. I would put that ahead of more PV panels. But with an increasing proportion of cost being the supply cost, saving energy will get you diminishing returns.

John

[PhilipA]

My bill is about $200 to $240 per qtr. about $30 of this is off peak hot water, $39 when the grandchildren are here. So to me it is cheap and when I have done whole of life studies still the cheapest by far.
IMHO the secret is to turn the thermostat right down. At minimum it is still just a bit too hot for a hot shower. Our dishwasher has its own heater.
Admittedly we get the NSW pensioner subsidy.
We do not have aircon, and turn off stand bys on the TV , sound system and PVR.
I have an ALDI power analyzer and check out the energy use of everything. TV etc use48watts on stand by.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

The two most energy hungry devices in our house were the HWS and the refrigerator. We got rid of the wonderful "frost free" fridge freezer from Fisher & Paykel and replaced it with a low energy Vestfrost fridge and a small Tuckerbox chest freezer. This saved about 3kWh/day. The instant gas HWS got upgraded to a heat pump storage heater with solar panels. It uses around 3kWh/day in winter and 1kWh/day over summer. That way our underlying usage is around 10kWh/day in winter and 6kWh/day in summer. Cost is around 31c/kWh. Cooling is mainly by evaporative but we don't need it all that much. Heating is primarily by wood heater and some reverse cycle. Cooking is by gas bottles at around $300/yr. On top of that our 1.5kW solar system covers 75% of our annual bill so we pay around $300 p.a. plus the gas. We grow most of our firewood on our block. Even the electric chainsaw is covered in the running costs. My wife's pensioner concession helps considerably with the supply charge. Junior finally left home in August and we're awaiting the smaller bills to work out how much he used on average.

[bsperka]

Its all based on how the market is set up. The asset is valued at current replacement value, not depreciated value. So you pay for 30 year old infrastructure, which should have low value, as though it was new. Secondly, they charge you on their consumption estimates. Electricity demand has always gone up, except in the last few years. So if the short fall is $200m between estimate and actual income, they spread this cost over all bills. Use less electricity, pay more.

[DiscoMick]

The whole thing about blaming the carbon tax for power rises was always rubbish as most rises were caused by infrastructure investment.
When Abbott abolished the carbon tax the power companies responded by upping the fixed service charge.
Consumers have reacted by moving to solar and installing more efficient systems, which has just reduced power company income further.
The current system is focused on propping up the power companies at the expense of consumers. State Governments need fat dividends from the power companies to prop up state government budgets. Power companies need low interest government loans to upgrade their networks. They are wedded to each other.
The emissions trading scheme had incentives for power companies to close or upgrade the dirtiest old fashioned coal power stations and replace them with more efficient alternatives, but those incentives were abolished by Abbott.
So, we now have the worst situation of consumers being screwed to prop up an outdated centralised high emissions system.
Personally, we already have solar which halved our power bill and we've just made an offer on a house which has 12 solar panels. If I can get the money together I'd like to install a battery bank and go off the grid altogether.

[DoubleChevron]

If your with TRU or Energy Australia ... MOVE IMMEDIATLY .... Our last power bill was $1000bux (after there "big discount" for paying on time). I looked into in and we were paying 27.9cent per kw .... the costs going up the more you use. Given we don't have town gas and heat and cool with RC A/C's ....and have an off peak storage HWS ... we use a bit.

I looked around and Momentum had very similar supply charges and was 16.8cent/kw.... I immediately changed and had the scum from Energy Australia ring me "If you stay with us we will give you a 30% discount" ..... I'm always known for being, um, "slightly blunt"... I asked did they think I was a moron? If your power charges are 40% more expensive than the competition, and the charges actually decrease the more you use ..... How will a 30% discount on the bill save me money" ...... "Yes, but we will give you a 30% discount if you stay with us ... no-one else will offer you this sort of discount" ....... sigh ....

"Are you listening to what your saying to me? People must be so stupid they fall for the dumb **** your trying to sell me.. Ok dumbarse, .... Explain to me how a 30% saving is better than something that is 40% cheaper in the first instance... You guys really are scumbags trying to sell this discount **** to people who don't realise how staggeringly expensive the power is through you guys. Even if you were cheaper there's not a snowmans chance i hell I'd stay with such a scumbag company as TRU/Energy Australia .... why the hell are you guys 40% more expensive than the competition?".

Energy Australia used to be really competitive (I was previously with TRU energy ... which were horrendously expensive scumbags ... I'm pretty sure we were initially forced into going with them). Energy Australia soon took a big chunk of TRU energys customers base. So what do TRU energy do rather than drop there prices to be competitive ?? Yeah they buy Energy Australia out and pump the prices up to match.

I wonder how long it'll take take TRU energy to realise everyone is leaving them in them in droves to Momemtum and buy them out too :mad:

seeya,
Shane L.

[p38arover]

My last electricity bill was $270 credit (that's using the ducted aircon) with solar generation to offset the usage. The credit might be down a bit at the next bill in January - we're using about 43kWh a day at the moment trying to keep the house comfortable (it was 43 deg C yesterday).

My live data: http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=309&sid=271

[p38arover]

If your with TRU or Energy Australia ... MOVE IMMEDIATLY .... Our last power bill was $1000bux (after there "big discount" for paying on time). I looked into in and we were paying 27.9cent per kw ....

Ok, who is cheaper and what are their tariffs?

[Tombie]

Emma and I live in a 1946 Sandstone Bungalow.
2 large fridges, 1 of which is in the workshop, plus the Engel and Waeco running as well..
Usually have 2 ceiling fans on all day and air con ~50% of the time in the bedroom.

So many electronics running its mind boggling...

Here's our consumption:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=87525&stc=1&d=1416791489
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[JDNSW]

........ If I can get the money together I'd like to install a battery bank and go off the grid altogether.

At the present state of battery technology you will not save money doing this. Battery costs are decreasing, but not rapidly, and you need a pretty large set if you are used to grid power.

We may get to the stage where it is economically feasible fairly soon, driven as much by increasing power costs as by decreasing battery costs. But if enough people do this expect to incur the supply charge if grid power is available, the same as happens today with water and sewerage in many if not all jurisdictions! In other words - you can't win!

John

[DoubleChevron]

Ok, who is cheaper and what are their tariffs?

You need to go and check the suppliers for your area and do your sums.

Momentum for us is:

Peak 1 ? 19.25c/kwh (for the first 200kwh/mth)
Peak 2 ? 16.15c/kwh
Control Load ? 12.11c/kwh
Service Charge ? $1.0450/day

Now
Energy Australia is:
Actually there website refuses to give me the details... they want you to do a quote and won't give you the simple rates details (no doubt 'cos there so hideiously expensive and want to sell you a plan due there there "discounts" available).

from memory
Peak power: 27.9c/kwh

offpeak : was about 20c/kwh (this one I'm not 100% sure of but it was way more expensive the momentum).

service charges was fractionally less. The exact figure I can't find. Why are these details readily avaible on there webpage? But would have been maybe $10 cheaper for service charges over the year.

At the time I calculated our bill would have been over $300 less through momentum. THat's even including the "DISCOUNTS !!" that Energy Australia jump and and down and shout at you about.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DiscoMick]

The power companies do all they can to convince us that going off the grid is not feasible, but others disagree.
Whether its economically feasible or not depends on what we predict will happen with power prices over the next, say 15 years. Based on recent experience I think we can assume annual rises of 10-15% as the squeeze on power companies caused by declining demand as consumers revolt against high charges will only get worse.
With rises of up to 15% annually for 15 years, going off the grid is looking pretty good to me.
If governments were putting the best interests of consumers ahead of their dividends from power companies they would be assisting people to go solar, not discouraging it.

[PhilipA]

I just re signed with Origin

Peak usage , up to 10.9589 kwh per day 25.135 c per Kwh including GST
off peak 1 9.19 c per kwh including GST
supply charge 79.167 cents per day including GST

On time payment discount 15%
re sign credit $50 including GST after 6 months

I looked at One Big Switch/Fifty UP Club and Iselect and both were not any cheaper for me.

regards Philip A

[UncleHo]

Our last bill 20/6/14 to 17/9/14 = 90days was $306.85 less Qld Govt.pensioner rebate $70.89 which brings it down to $259.56 :)

The rented house is a 1946-48 post WW11 hardwood weatherboard,with a corrugated iron roof (it does have a whirly on it)approx. 9sq.all light fittings are fluro,and both front and rear flood lights are LED 8w front & 15w rear the difference after removing the 150w floods is a way better power bill :D there is an elect pump from the 8000 gal.tank which feeds the toilet and washing machine,it has been a mild winter so no need for the elect heater,but we have 2 x box fans running at the moment,32Deg C outside.

[Robmacca]

The power companies do all they can to convince us that going off the grid is not feasible, but others disagree.
Whether its economically feasible or not depends on what we predict will happen with power prices over the next, say 15 years. Based on recent experience I think we can assume annual rises of 10-15% as the squeeze on power companies caused by declining demand as consumers revolt against high charges will only get worse.
With rises of up to 15% annually for 15 years, going off the grid is looking pretty good to me.
If governments were putting the best interests of consumers ahead of their dividends from power companies they would be assisting people to go solar, not discouraging it.
You wait to see the electricity price here in Qld skyrocket if Campbell Newman gets his way and sell/lease ( its all the same in the end) all the utilities in Qld.
SA & Vic have the highest electricity costs in Australia and they are both private.....

[PhilipA]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the RECs. These are the major driver of tariff increases other than network renewal.
When Wind power projects are developed they negotiate a price for RECs with the Federal Government.
The distributors then have to buy the RECs to a percentage of their total throughput.
They add this cost on to the retail price of electricity.

AFAIR from reading the recent report, some RECs are 115 cents per megawatt hour, vs the total wholesale cost of electricity of about 60 to 80 cents .
This cost has to be passed on to consumers and AFAIK constitutes about 20% -30% of the increase in electricity costs.
So all of you that think that the REC debate currently in train doesn't mean anything to you should think again.
Regards Philip A

[mox]

Wind power seems viable for charging batteries and pumping water when timing of its delivery is not important. However, for generating electricity directly into the mains, it is probably the scam of the century. Wind farm owners have been doing well while legislated for large effective subsidies apply but when these are cut, wind turbines will go the same way that Managed Investment Schemes did. For detailed articles see www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com).

[bee utey]

Wind power seems viable for charging batteries and pumping water when timing of its delivery is not important. However, for generating electricity directly into the mains, it is probably the scam of the century. Wind farm owners have been doing well while legislated for large effective subsidies apply but when these are cut, wind turbines will go the same way that Managed Investment Schemes did. For detailed articles see www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com).
stopthesethings is not a credible source. It's just another fossil industry funded misinformation site. it's authors remain anonymous. For some balance read here:

Some facts about Stop These Things | Yes 2 Renewables (http://yes2renewables.org/2013/01/15/some-facts-about-stop-these-things/)

oh and

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/4841346

[bsperka]

The biggest concern electric companies have right now is solar and off grid. One way to save money is to put all the power hungry devices ( eg pool pump, ac, hws) on solar directly. Not off grid, but taking load off grid therefore not depending on it and associated electricity costs per kwh. There may be safety issues here, but its happening. Off grid takes the investment to another level but people are doing it more and more, sometimes with two sets of panels to have high usage devices fed directly.

[mox]

[QUOTE=bee utey;2272451]stopthesethings is not a credible source. It's just another fossil industry funded misinformation site. it's authors remain anonymous. For some balance read here:

Some facts about Stop These Things | Yes 2 Renewables (http://yes2renewables.org/2013/01/15/some-facts-about-stop-these-things/)

oh and

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/4841346[/QUOTE


Note the Yes2Renewables article, which is nearly 2 years old basically uses the tactics of those who know they have a weak argument to support their preferred stance. ie Revert to name calling and other personal abuse. Obviously hoping to dissuade those who have cognitive dissonance and to date believed all the pro wind farm "spin" that they should not descend to even looking at STT. From his comments, it appears bee utey is one who has not. Those who have checked it regularly know that there is often a new article every day - largely sourced from authors elsewhere on some aspect of wind farm problems. Then after them some further comments by those who run the STT site, often including references to other sources to support evidence. Then there are comments by readers. Also, there are links to articles - especially recent ones on other websites. Many similar problems and complaints occur with windfarms in other countries








A couple of comments re the ABC article. The King Island wind farm proposal has recently been cancelled. I gather ultimately because it is becoming more widely recognised that wind is a very costly and inefficient way of reducing carbon emissions after considering the cost in fossil fuels in building them and the need to have costly backup generating capacity on standby for when the wind stops. Is largely expensive erratic operation of fossil fuel powered generators. Note a classic example of this was last January during the heat wave in South Australia. Very heavy power demand from air conditioners and refrigeration equipment and virtually no wind. At least solar generation performance should be predictably good under these conditions.


I have experienced enough of how low frequency noise travels long distances, resonates inside some enclosed spaces and is very difficult to insulate against from sources of it. Including from "Doof" festivals. ie with amplified electronic music. Often this can be heard over 15 km away in country areas, even with timbered areas in between. A major reason why these festivals are usually run out of areas by locals after being held over one weekend for a couple of successive years on the same site. The wind industry tries to just ridicule those complaining about the noise problem when turbines are operating. . Like the tobacco industry long tried to debunk the bad health effects of its products. More research on the obvious adverse health effects of very low frequency noise is necessary.
Re the insinuation by the wind industry misinformation site that STT is just a fossil fuel industry misinformation site, the material on each should be evaluated on its technical merits. Also note that before the recent Federal election, apparently wind turbine manufacturer Vestas gave the Greens party a large financial donation. Also, that there is a lot of Union superannuation fund money invested in wind farms. So not surprising that Labor and Greens want to keep the large legislated for effective subsidies to continue. Even though it has been proven that wind for generating directly into mains will never be a good proposition.

[Ferret]

Note the Yes2Renewables article, which is nearly 2 years old basically uses the tactics of those who know they have a weak argument to support their preferred stance. ie Revert to name calling and other personal abuse.

In the category of name calling and personal abuse I guess you would have to include terms scattered among the articles published on the StopThesesThings web site such as 'greentard', 'twitter twit', 'keyboard coward', 'articulate moron', 'ecofascist', 'wind weasel' and the like. Seems like they can dish it out with the best of them.

I wonder if this weakens their arguments?

[DiscoMick]

To save money with solar its important to minimise power consumption during the day and defer as much as possible usage until after 8pm. That way you're getting the full solar credit and using as little as possible during the day. In our house only the two fridges and fish tank pump are on in daylight hours. We do our washing after 8pm. Also, solar works best at about 25 degrees and when the panels are clean so hose them down regularly, including around midday on hot days. Makes a big difference to the bill.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

Hose them down with $2.00 of water to generate $0.12 of electricity :)

[mox]

In the category of name calling and personal abuse I guess you would have to include terms scattered among the articles published on the StopThesesThings web site such as 'greentard', 'twitter twit', 'keyboard coward', 'articulate moron', 'ecofascist', 'wind weasel' and the like. Seems like they can dish it out with the best of them.

I wonder if this weakens their arguments?

Agreed there is also name calling among comments by those who administer www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com) However these are not often in the articles exposing what is wrong with wind power they are commenting on.
Re title of this thread, "Why your power bill still hurts", a significant reason contributing to this is cost of subsidies to renewables. Fair enough to get them started. However, unfortunately wind for generating power directly into mains has proven has proven to need continued subsidies as well as it causing significant environmental problems. . Those with large investments in the industry want them continued. Consumers ultimately pay for it. Note how Germany, Denmark and South Australia with a lot of wind turbines have the highest electricity prices in the world. These cause problems including more people behind in payments being disconnected and the cost of each so called "Green job" destroying two or more real jobs from eg industries closing down or moving away.

[Vern]

To save money with solar its important to minimise power consumption during the day and defer as much as possible usage until after 8pm. That way you're getting the full solar credit and using as little as possible during the day. In our house only the two fridges and fish tank pump are on in daylight hours. We do our washing after 8pm. Also, solar works best at about 25 degrees and when the panels are clean so hose them down regularly, including around midday on hot days. Makes a big difference to the bill.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app
I think you have that back the front mick! Yes if your on a premium feed in tarrif, but now at 8c feed in, you need to load shift to the day time and use your appliances whilst the sun is shining.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, that's true, we are still on the premium tariff so it works for us, but each to his own situation.

[DiscoMick]

Some friends have recently sold a small house on a rural property which was fully solar powered and worked just fine for them. They sold to move into town.

[bee utey]

Agreed there is also name calling among comments by those who administer www.stopthesethings.com (http://www.stopthesethings.com) However these are not often in the articles exposing what is wrong with wind power they are commenting on.
Re title of this thread, "Why your power bill still hurts", a significant reason contributing to this is cost of subsidies to renewables. Fair enough to get them started. However, unfortunately wind for generating power directly into mains has proven has proven to need continued subsidies as well as it causing significant environmental problems. . Those with large investments in the industry want them continued. Consumers ultimately pay for it. Note how Germany, Denmark and South Australia with a lot of wind turbines have the highest electricity prices in the world. These cause problems including more people behind in payments being disconnected and the cost of each so called "Green job" destroying two or more real jobs from eg industries closing down or moving away.

SA's electricity prices aren't high due to wind energy (wholesale wind energy is almost free), they are due to some extremely rich mongrel living in Singapore skimming 30% off each and every bill straight into his bank accounts. That's privatisation for you.:twisted:

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owned-by-billionaire-li-kashing-makes-four-times-more-profit-out-of-us-than-its-uk-group/story-fni6uo1m-1226943633683)

[Ausfree]

SA's electricity prices aren't high due to wind energy (wholesale wind energy is almost free), they are due to some extremely rich mongrel living in Singapore skimming 30% off each and every bill straight into his bank accounts. That's privatisation for you.:twisted:

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owned-by-billionaire-li-kashing-makes-four-times-more-profit-out-of-us-than-its-uk-group/story-fni6uo1m-1226943633683)
Yeah, we will see a lot more of this as the country's assets are flogged off.:mad:

[p38arover]

To save money with solar its important to minimise power consumption during the day and defer as much as possible usage until after 8pm. That way you're getting the full solar credit and using as little as possible during the day. In our house only the two fridges and fish tank pump are on in daylight hours. We do our washing after 8pm. Also, solar works best at about 25 degrees and when the panels are clean so hose them down regularly, including around midday on hot days. Makes a big difference to the bill.

I think that depends upon what sort of solar plan you are on and what sort of metering you have, e.g., Time Of Use. I'm not on TOU.

I'm on a Gross FIT, not Nett, so as far as I can see, it makes no difference when I use power. I'm also being paid 60c/kWh for my solar generation.

[p38arover]

That's privatisation for you.:twisted:

Every time any govt. has sold off assets or a business to private companies to "allow the consumer to get a better deal", it's ended up costing the consumer more.

[DiscoMick]

Its good to see communities trying to band together to break the monopoly of the big government-protected coal-fired power companies and create viable alternatives.


Byron Bay residents push for Australia's first community-owned clean energy generator - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-27/byron-bay-pushes-for-community-owned-clean-energy/5920272)


There's no doubt most people would like to be protected from price-gouging by the majors and would support sensible alternatives. That has already been shown by the huge take up of solar rooftop panels, which are much more popular than governments expected.


Other countries are well ahead of us on this, as the Abbott Government has killed off 70% of renewable investment by deliberately undermining the Renewable Energy Target to deter investors. How dumb is it to deter investment in the energy sources of the future? Just really stupid, I reckon. Fortunately, the public hasn't been fooled, as the opinion polls show.

[Ferret]

To save money with solar its important to minimise power consumption during the day and defer as much as possible usage until after 8pm. That way you're getting the full solar credit and using as little as possible during the day....

That strategy depends upon what credit you get paid for your solar electricity generation feed to the grid vs what you pay for electricity purchased from the grid and these figures vary across the country and so changes the nature of the equation.

In Perth the opposite strategy is true. The only way to make solar work financially is to maximise solar electricity use during the day, thereby avoiding the purchase of electricity from the grid.

Solar electricity feed to the grid earns you a ~$0.07 / kWh credit but electricity purchased from the grid costs you ~ $0.23 / kWh. There are other electricity pricing structures you can elect to use (TOU etc.) but like the casinos, the power suppliers always structure them so that they always win over the longer term.

[Greatsouthernland]

SA's electricity prices aren't high due to wind energy (wholesale wind energy is almost free), they are due to some extremely rich mongrel living in Singapore skimming 30% off each and every bill straight into his bank accounts. That's privatisation for you.:twisted:

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owned-by-billionaire-li-kashing-makes-four-times-more-profit-out-of-us-than-its-uk-group/story-fni6uo1m-1226943633683)

He's actually living in China, but that doesn't matter.

Funny how everyone bags the Chinese 'communist' system as the yanks describe it, but their success at 'capitalism' is in part due to our government selling our goose that lays their golden eggs...for just one stupid egg!

Not sure of I made my point :confused: ... Mr Li is doing well out of owning what our government used to own, why is he smarter than our government?

[350RRC]

... Mr Li is doing well out of owning what our government used to own, why is he smarter than our government?

Anyone with with a strategic plan longer than any of Australia's election cycles would look smarter.

Statesmanship is no longer part of the political landscape here and the foreign (and domestic) 'pickers' know it.

cheers, DL

[Greatsouthernland]

Anyone with with a strategic plan longer than any of Australia's election cycles would look smarter.

Statesmanship is no longer part of the political landscape here and the foreign (and domestic) 'pickers' know it.

cheers, DL

Yes, agree with you absolutely...the socialists don't realise that they have nothing to gain (administer) if they were to win balance of power, the farm's been sold :p

:confused:

[350RRC]

The other side is no better.

DL

[Greatsouthernland]

The other side is no better.

DL

True, as it created these conditions.

[JDNSW]

True, as it created these conditions.

To a considerable extent, it is dodging the truth to blame the politicians.

The short sighted policies of politicians are simply a reflection of the voters' attitudes, and "allowing" foreign entities to buy assets simply begs the question as to why Australians are not buying them instead. Again, the real reason is that most Australians are unwilling to make long term investments - we (speaking generally) prefer to make quick gains and encourage our corporations along the same path by making investment decisions based on the latest quarterly report rather than long term plans.

This short term attitude is, not surprisingly, encouraged by tax and other legislation that encourages a short term outlook, especially by corporations.

Politicians are encouraged by their constituents who tend to vote for whoever gives the best bottom line after each election. Until voters start looking long term, don't expect the politicians to.

Other countries, especially less democratic ones, can follow strong leaders who can have long term vision, and even in democratic countries, strong, charismatic leaders can lead rather than bribe their supporters. I have trouble thinking of such a leader in Australian politics, certainly in my lifetime. There have been a few who have tried this, but have failed to carry enough voters with them to last very long.

John

[Tombie]

John, that was probably the best post I've read in ages.
Eloquently sums up the Landscape.

Thank you.

[Greatsouthernland]

To a considerable extent, it is dodging the truth to blame the politicians.

The short sighted policies of politicians are simply a reflection of the voters' attitudes, and "allowing" foreign entities to buy assets simply begs the question as to why Australians are not buying them instead. Again, the real reason is that most Australians are unwilling to make long term investments - we (speaking generally) prefer to make quick gains and encourage our corporations along the same path by making investment decisions based on the latest quarterly report rather than long term plans.

This short term attitude is, not surprisingly, encouraged by tax and other legislation that encourages a short term outlook, especially by corporations.

Politicians are encouraged by their constituents who tend to vote for whoever gives the best bottom line after each election. Until voters start looking long term, don't expect the politicians to.

Other countries, especially less democratic ones, can follow strong leaders who can have long term vision, and even in democratic countries, strong, charismatic leaders can lead rather than bribe their supporters. I have trouble thinking of such a leader in Australian politics, certainly in my lifetime. There have been a few who have tried this, but have failed to carry enough voters with them to last very long.

John

I understand what you mean. I spend the time putting over 100 votes in order under the line, but how does any of this help with the 4 year term and opposition for the sake of it - most often partisan. And alliances never mentioned up front when the voting happens or alliances created after the vote that voters would not have supported if they'd known?

Murdoch's, Packers, Rhineharts, Kidmans, Palmers etc are Aussies making long term investments...I'd like to see more long term policy, but stuffed if I know how it can happen with potential change every 4 years and so many back room deals going on, the Westminster way I spose, I still don't have any answers John...

[JDNSW]

............
Murdoch's, Packers, Rhineharts, Kidmans, Palmers etc are Aussies making long term investments...I'd like to see more long term policy, but stuffed if I know how it can happen with potential change every 4 years and so many back room deals going on, the Westminster way I spose, I still don't have any answers John...

Interesting that you quote these names. They are all families or individuals who do not have to listen to either voters or shareholders. And are generally run down by the press and vocal opponents who follow the Australian tradition of cutting down tall poppies.

John

[PhilipA]

BTW anyone been reading the reports of the Energy Price Regulator where they recommend price decreases.

The other interesting thing I noted was that they cited SA and Vic for efficiency improvements . These are the privatized states.

The REAL reason NSW wants to deregulate is that over many years of XXXXX government, the unions have so featherbedded themselves that it is in practical terms not feasible to wind it back.

Even Paul Keating came out today blasting Robertson for fighting against privatization.

So the opponents of privatization should probably note that the XXXX hero is even advocating it.

Regards Philip A

[Greatsouthernland]

Interesting that you quote these names. They are all families or individuals who do not have to listen to either voters or shareholders. And are generally run down by the press and vocal opponents who follow the Australian tradition of cutting down tall poppies.

John

Not really, it was specifically in reply to this -


...Again, the real reason is that most Australians are unwilling to make long term investments - we (speaking generally) prefer to make quick gains and encourage our corporations along the same path by making investment decisions based on the latest quarterly report rather than long term plans... John

Keating's Superannuation was good long term planning, he's a tall poppy, but I don't remember anyone cutting him down (except maybe Bob, parliamentary privilege of course).

Ethane Pipeline Fund (EPX) for years made a loss, paid a dividend and director fees, as far as I know it still loses money from a 'quarterly' perspective, but in the long term it will (should) be quite lucrative, but I wouldn't take that example as financial advice - I'm not licensed and don't own the stock...just sayin that it's very simplistic to say only short term profit making decisions are popular with the voters OR Australian investors.

More to the point, I think our political system 'creates' short-termism due to the cycle, encouraging the incumbent party to create an image of superior financial performance. Or the 'opposing' parties to take cheap shots at attempting to discredit the incumbent's abilities - the topics of social policy, infrastructure, environmental, fiscal management, employees/unions, corporations and small business, health, education and defence are mere (mandatory and core) examples of topics where opposing parties slander the others' abilities to make a 'long-term' improvement.

In conclusion, I think it's more the style of our political system (their capitulation of media induced 'hunger' for this 'tit-for-tat' political point-scoring) and the majority of the comatose voting population that absorb this immature behavior. The media circus will need to change, followed by individual maturity of the politicians, before our votes can truly influence long-term policy.

Just my thoughts...but you're probably right ;)

[JDNSW]

No, I think it is optimistic to blame the 'system' or the politicians (changing these is in comparison simple), I still think the problem is ultimately the voters and the Australian culture, although it is emphasised by laws and policies put up by politicians - but the politicians do this because that is how they expect to get elected.

John

[Greatsouthernland]

No, I think it is optimistic to blame the 'system' or the politicians (changing these is in comparison simple), I still think the problem is ultimately the voters and the Australian culture, although it is emphasised by laws and policies put up by politicians - but the politicians do this because that is how they expect to get elected.

John

Well if culture really is the problem, I can't see the voters as a solution QED.

We agreed all along :o .

Thanks John.