Series 1 - 5 speed gearbox.

[101RRS]

If you had a Series 1 88 with a standard 2 litre spread bore and wanted to put in a 5 speed gearbox what box would you use. I appreciate there are a number of minor details to be considered but unless they are show stoppers then not wanting to hear them at the moment - looking at the major issues before minor issues.

I would prefer to mate to the series 1 tfr case but anLT230 could be an options (yes issues related to awd to be considered).

The gearboxes I am aware of re Nissan Canbstar, LT77 and R380 but I am open to suggestions - particular where it has been done before.

Thanks

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Ashcrofts do a conversion kit to mate one of the Rover 5 speed LT77 or R380 into the series transfer box. Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/the-series-vehicle/series-5-speed-kits.html)

If you use the LT77 it is shorter by about 30mm to the R380 but the transfer still moves back. So you still have to lengthen the front prop shaft and shorten the rear.

If you get the LT77 from a Defender 90 Tdi 200 it has a short bellhousing that matches the bellhousing of the 2 1/4 litre.

For the 2 litre series one engine you have to do a couple of mods of machining out the flywheel adapter to fit the lip on the bellhousing and reposition the studs. I can post up an image of the conversion I did for a Rover 6 cyl which has the same stud pattern as the 2 litre S1.

Lots of people don't like the LT77 but it is Land Rover/Range Rover and based on a Jaguar design

(Your other option is to fit a SIII 4 speed all synchro from a six cylinder and add a Toro or Roamerdrive overdrive, you can fit the bellhousing and clutch throwout from a SIIa Six cyl to the SIII box to make your clutch linkage work.)

[101RRS]

Thanks Dianna - yes there are overdrive options and will consider those but to make an ultimate decision I need information which you have given on a straight 5 speed option.

i am not too worried about machining issues - as they say anything is possible. Having owned a Disco 1 with an LT77 (seemed to always be selecting reverse rather than 1st and nearly backed into a car at the traffic lights) - I am not too keen going back there but it of course is a gearbox that is almost a perfect fit for a series.

Also I have a VT Holden V8 Getrag that I modified to go on the back of my V12 Jag and I am thinking of pulling it out and going for an off the shelf kit so I may have that gearbox available - I suspect it will be too long, even with the tailshaft extension cut off but that could be an option, albiet a lot of work.

Thanks for you input.

Cheers

Garry

[Timj]

Hi Garry,

Biggest problem is going to be adapting a five speed to the old 2 litre pattern. People like Marks 4wd don't even list the series to holden stuff on their web site anymore as they are just too old. It's a pity as a modern 5 speed from anything else would be great. I would love to be able to put a Supra or Mazda box in a series but there are just too many issues for someone like me who has no ability to machine parts up. Then once you have the gearbox to engine sorted you have to worry about the transfer case and the length of the whole unit in a SWB. The rear tailshaft can end up way too short unless you move the engine forwards. What I would like to do at the moment would be to put an auto behind the 186 I have in one of mine and mate that to the series transfer.

This is a site with a lot of info on what is available in the states as far as gearbox conversions go - TeriAnn's Expedition Land Rover site (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/#gearbox)

Cheers,

TimJ.

[101RRS]

Tim - thanks for the link - adaptor plates etc are not hard - been through all that with the Jag conversion. You just make up a template out of timber and take it to a fabrication shop or a lazer cutter and get it cut out. Meticulous measuring and drawing in real size is what is needed.

cheers

garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

....
i am not too worried about machining issues - as they say anything is possible. Having owned a Disco 1 with an LT77 (seemed to always be selecting reverse rather than 1st and nearly backed into a car at the traffic lights) - I am not too keen going back there but it of course is a gearbox that is almost a perfect fit for a series.

...There is always the Ashcroft Stumpy R380 box ( www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/~/short-bellhousing-r380 (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/manual-gearboxes/short-bellhousing-r380.html) ) it is designed to fit in the same space as the LT77 in the 90. The shift pattern is different to the 77, although its pretty pricey if you also get a box sent out.

Fitting it to a 2 litre engine is (as I said) just a matter of machining out the flywheel housing and moving the studs to match.

You can probably also use a SIII 6 cyl flywheel which will accept the diaphragm type pressure plate and Disco/Defender clutch plate to match the R380 spline. The pinion bush in the flywheel is the same in the Defender as the S1

[wrinklearthur]

Found this about the Nissan Cabstar five speed gearbox.

Ref;5 Speed Gearbox - Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum (http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/nissan-patrol-mq-mk-12/5-speed-gearbox-83113/)


A year ago, I rebuilt my Safari ute. I replaced the L28 with a LD28, turboed it, added an altitude compensator as I am from Pretoria South Africa (very high altitude). I changed the 4 speed to a Cabstar 5 speed, but am very dissapointed with the gear ratio on this box:
1st 5.429:1
2nd 3.048:1
3rd 1.780:1
4th 1.000:1
5th 0.820:1
First is an extremely short gear and only good for serious 4x4, so I normally pull away in second. The frustration is actually between third and fourth - huge gap and I often found myself working between these gears on slight uphills. I changed back to the 4 speed and there is a huge improvement as the ratio suits the Safari better. The problem is on the open road where one is always looking for that fifth gear.
Does anybody know whether there were different ratio gearboxes on the Cabstar H40/F22 range, and if so a list of them with their respective ratio's? The reason for my question is that the MK's in South Africa was available in 4 speed only, but there are lots of used Cabstar engine/gearboxes still imported>

Too large a gap between third and forth for a diesel for my liking, but it should be okay for the 2 litre Land Rover petrol torque band.

[101RRS]

Thanks Arthur - and there could be a bit more gap between 4th and 5th as well.

[toad]

Hi Gary, I rode in Jim,s 86" on the last heritage drive for over an hour and was very surprised at how effective and quiet the Romerdrive was in the little truck. I would suggest that this is a serious option given the total lack of engineering you have to do.

Rick.

[isuzurover]

A defender r380 with a stumpy bellhousing and 1.003 lt230 would be my choice.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Im a bit late to this conversation, but here's what Ive done / am doing in my 86"...

- 300Tdi
- Ashcroft Stumpy Bell-housing
- R380
- LT230 with Disco gearing plus a 50mm extension to the front output flange so that I didn't need to touch the front cross member
- Front prop out of a TD5 Defender (with the extension piece on the LT230, its just the right length)
- Rear prop needs to be shortened a couple of inches (but will still be longer than the shortest 80" shaft from the long nosed diffs)
- Handbrake... Yet to be decided, but there are a few options (An LT230 brake will not fit - too wide and clashes with rear cross member).
i) X-Eng for a Defender - needs lever assembly modifying
ii) X-ENg for a Series - needs an adapter plate making to mount to LT230
iii) Standard S1 Drum brake - needs an adapter plate making to mount to LT230


Jon

[Sitec]

Hi Garry.
Im not sure of the differences between the 2 litre bell housing and the 2.286, but what I can tell you is that Im using a Land Rover 90 LT77 gearbox coupled to a 1.222:1 ratio transfer box which is running to 3.54.1 diffs in series axles on 750x16 tyres. I'm using a Tdi which is sat on the original mounts for the 2.286, do the front of the car will remain unchanged. The 90/110/Defender early LT77 fits the earlier 2.2's, the only change being relocation of a couple of studs. To use this box, I've removed both middle x members, and re located the original gearbox x member to suit the LT 77. If its sighted in the right place, the only tin work internally that will need changing is the gearbox tunnel. I've removed the Hi/Lo/CDL selector and am going to try and make up some linkage so as to retain red and yellow levers. I've managed to retain the Series Handbrake. If you need some pics, look in Projects and Tutorials for the thread 'SWMBO's Ser 2 Tdi the beginning'.... It'll b a few pages down as I've not done anything to it since the arrival of the 101!!! :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sitec

The difference between the S1 and 2.283 bell is explained in post 2 of this thread. Basically the 200Tdi bell is the same as the 2.283 which has a larger internal diameter, so you need either the lip of the bell machined off or the S1 flywheel housing machined out and the studs repositioned for the larger diameter and position.

You would also have to use a SIII 6cyl flywheel so you can fit the Defender pressure plate,

[101RRS]

Just to clarify, if I ever did this mod the gearbox would still be mated to the 2 litre petrol engine.

I like the idea of the stumpy R380 having previously owned a Disco 1 with the LT77 I just do not like the gear layout - 1st is too close to reverse.

Thanks for all the advice - great stuff.

Garry

[mick88]

The Nissan cabstar conversion from Marks has a very long bell housing/adaptor plate and so it pushes the holden six a long way forward in the 88" vehicles so in an 80" coupled to the four cylinder it would still be very compact, but no doubt doable. I have a 2A 88 that has the cabstar box and I have pulled the holden six out and am currently rebuilding a starfire four to fit into it. It should work out well and all the engine mounts, bell housing bolt pattern etc are as per the six cylinder engine. I did drive the vehicle on a permit with the six in it and found the cabstar box very good, but as Arthur stated it has a very low first. It would probably work well in a four speed version with 3.54 diffs. It's a shame Marks didn't also do a conversion for the cabstar box mated to a Land Rover 2 1/4 motor.
Overall though a series box and series motor with a roamerdrive would be a good combination unless you have an application for it where you are going to totally murder the gearbox.
My daily driver is a 88" series 3 with a holden 186, 3.54 diffs, a roamerdrive and an almost buggered gearbox I fitted temporarily 13-14 years ago and it is still hanging in there.


Cheers, Mick.

[123rover50]

Just to clarify, if I ever did this mod the gearbox would still be mated to the 2 litre petrol engine.

I like the idea of the stumpy R380 having previously owned a Disco 1 with the LT77 I just do not like the gear layout - 1st is too close to reverse.

Thanks for all the advice - great stuff.

Garry

I have heard of people having that problem but I have no problem with the LT77 in our Disco. I quite like the box even though the synchro is not working well.
Perhaps the springs in yours that control the lever throw were out of whack.
When they are good there is a pronounced exra pressure needed for reverse.
I have a Defender 200tdi and LT77 I am going to fit into a S1 88" one day:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just following up on my promise

This is a standard 6cyl SIIa flywheel housing which is essentially the same as a S1 housing

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1240.jpg

And connected to a gearbox bell

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1241.jpg

The following are all a SIIa 6cyl flywheel housing modified for an Ashcroft stumpy R380. Note alloy build up for repositioned studs.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1242.jpg

internal lip machined to accept lip on stumpy (4 cyl gearbox bell)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1243.jpg

Connected to Ashcroft bellhousing

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1244.jpg

Note repositioned starter dog cover

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1245.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/1246.jpg

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Pretty impressive stuff Diana. Just goes to show that where there's a will, there's a way!

[AV8R]

I've removed the Hi/Lo/CDL selector and am going to try and make up some linkage so as to retain red and yellow levers. :)


I have just finished a similar project for my Series IIa. LT77 & LT230. Same levers and same operation as original. Except that you have to pull up on the yellow knob to disengage diff lock. It does not pop-up when pulling the red lever;). Took me many prototyping but it is finally working :D All the floorboards are still out so if you'd like a picture, let me know.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I have just finished a similar project for my Series IIa. LT77 & LT230. Same levers and same operation as original. Except that you have to pull up on the yellow knob to disengage diff lock. It does not pop-up when pulling the red lever;). Took me many prototyping but it is finally working :D All the floorboards are still out so if you'd like a picture, let me know.


Pictures and a sketch would be excellent I possible.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Pictures and a sketch would be excellent I possible.Me too. Would love some piccies of the project.

[Sitec]

I have just finished a similar project for my Series IIa. LT77 & LT230. Same levers and same operation as original. Except that you have to pull up on the yellow knob to disengage diff lock. It does not pop-up when pulling the red lever;). Took me many prototyping but it is finally working :D All the floorboards are still out so if you'd like a picture, let me know.

Yes please!! Here's a shot of what I've made to link the Series Handbrake lever to the LT230...

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Yes please!! Here's a shot of what I've made to link the Series Handbrake lever to the LT230...


Sitec,
Thanks a lot for the photo. What handbrake drum did you use? The standard Series drum or the standard LT230 drum?

I'll soon need to consider how to mount my S1 drum to the LT230 and use a standard S1 handbrake lever arrangement (or an X-Eng unit and make an adapter for the S1 lever) - I dont have enough space to for the standard & wider LT230 drum.

[AV8R]

I'll be happy to make a couple of pics but you have to be a little patient. I won't see the 88 until thursday. Being halfway around the world that may very well be friday to you :)


To wet yours apetite here's two pics of the adapterplate I made to go in between the Ford bellhousing and the LT77.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sitec,
Thanks a lot for the photo. What handbrake drum did you use? The standard Series drum or the standard LT230 drum?

I'll soon need to consider how to mount my S1 drum to the LT230 and use a standard S1 handbrake lever arrangement (or an X-Eng unit and make an adapter for the S1 lever) - I dont have enough space to for the standard & wider LT230 drum.Hi Jon

The space issue is a problem, however were you aware that a number of members have removed the X-Eng handbrake because of failures?

Another problem is that the X-Eng caliper sits to the rear of the rotor which increases your space problem. I was addressing this issue by using a Maserati Bi-Turbo rotor, however I have found that one of the Toyota Corona rear rotors is actually a better match to our needs. It is closer to the thickness of the X-Eng rotor and the top-hat offset is greater than the Maserati rotor. This means that you can bring the caliper forward, over the top of the LT230 output.

I am also considering making a nut plate to fit on the transfer case side of the rear output flange. This way I will be able to use bolts instead of the original studs, which protrude into the cross member. Your 86 probably won't have the same problem because of the different shape of the cross member.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hi Jon

The space issue is a problem, however were you aware that a number of members have removed the X-Eng handbrake because of failures?

Another problem is that the X-Eng caliper sits to the rear of the rotor which increases your space problem. I was addressing this issue by using a Maserati Bi-Turbo rotor, however I have found that one of the Toyota Corona rear rotors is actually a better match to our needs. It is closer to the thickness of the X-Eng rotor and the top-hat offset is greater than the Maserati rotor. This means that you can bring the caliper forward, over the top of the LT230 output.

I am also considering making a nut plate to fit on the transfer case side of the rear output flange. This way I will be able to use bolts instead of the original studs, which protrude into the cross member. Your 86 probably won't have the same problem because of the different shape of the cross member.

Your obviously a lot further down this road than I am Diana! Im just thinking about the problem and possible solutions - haven't actually got to offering anything upto the cross member yet!

Are the failures on the Defender (LT230) version or on the Series version? I have had the X-Eng Defender version on my Defender for 6 or 7 years now and its excellent, the only time it ever fails is if I get an oil leak and the disc gets covered in oil! In fairness though you usually get ample warning that the disc / pads are getting oily.

When thinking about the X-Eng route I had thought that it would probably be easier to adapt the series version to the LT230 rather than the LT230 (Defender) version to the S1 hand-brake lever. I think the main difference is the PCD and stud pattern and I suspect I could turn up an ally adapter plate on the lathe. I also haven't discounted turning up an adapter plate for the standard S1 drum, I think I can just about squeeze that in, but will need to do some careful measuring...

Do you have any photos of the Corona calliper arrangement?

How will your nut plate work? Replace the M16 nut that holds the splined flange in place?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Jon

The problem for any of the drum brakes is that you have to have room behind the drum so you can remove it. With a disk brake its merely lifting the calliper off the rotor or dropping in new pads.

If you think about your X-Eng brake it is a flat rotor, so sits in the same alignment as the rear prop shaft flange. Then consider the shape of the rear output of the LT230 which protrudes to the rear of the main housing to incorporate the speedo drive.

My plan is to use a top hat style rotor so it still bolts onto the original flange but the braking face of the rotor is moved closer to the T/F housing allowing the calliper to move forward (away from the cross member behind the transmission). The position of the rotor/calliper will be close to the position of the backing plate for the original drum system.

The issues for the X-Eng failure seemed to be related to adjustment running out without warning, so may be a maintenance issue rather that a failure in the design, although it is still a concern.

Back to the nut plate, the idea is that I machine up a large threaded ring with threaded holes in the same place as the studs. The ring would be secured onto the t/f box side of the output flange where the captive bolt heads are usually located. The ring would be secured in position by counter-sunk screws from the other side. This would allow me to undo and retract the prop shaft without the studs poking through the big hole in the cross-member, which will prevent the box dropping down for removal. (Remember unlike your Defender or 86" the Series 109 and SIIB chassis have a hole through the cross member for the propshaft to pass through an preventing the front of the shaft dropping onto the ground. AFAIK this was a requirement of UK regulations of the 1950s and 1960s)

[AV8R]

Took some pics today of the two levers that operate my LT230 like it is supposed to be. Yellow for 2/4WD. Red for HI/LOW range.
Handles are in 2WD HI, 4WD HI, 4WD LOW taken from the RHside. One topview.

[AV8R]

View from the passengers side. View from the drivers side. Last picture shows some but not all off the levers, links and support that were used to achieve a functional 2/4WD system. Hi/Low was fairly easy using a shortened cover from an LT230 and its shift lever to weld the Redknoblever to.
Hope this will steer you in the right direction.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

AV8R, thats brilliant!

I was going to use the standard LT230 mount and stick position... Im thinking twice now!

Thanks for posting.

Jon

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thats great.

But did you notice someone put your steering wheel on the wrong side! ;)

Diana

[AV8R]

steering wheel on the wrong side !

It would be if you're driving on the wrong side as well. As it happens it's mighty handy when driving on the right side of the road :D

[mick88]

The dash panel on you vehicle is larger than normal!




Cheers, Mick.

[AV8R]

Yeah, quite a few people have put that remark. The panel also has a LR tachometer in style with the speedometer. Seems to be pretty rare they tell me . . . . . Original steering wheel is also rare nowadays because over here most were replaced in the 70's with modern SIII wheels. And the old ones were scrapped.


I will make a few more detailed pics and take some measurements of the levers but I'm somewhat tied up at the moment. You guys are not in a hurry, are you ?

[Sitec]

Sitec,
Thanks a lot for the photo. What handbrake drum did you use? The standard Series drum or the standard LT230 drum?

I'll soon need to consider how to mount my S1 drum to the LT230 and use a standard S1 handbrake lever arrangement (or an X-Eng unit and make an adapter for the S1 lever) - I dont have enough space to for the standard & wider LT230 drum.

Hi Jon. I used the std LT230 drum as they're much larger than the series drum. Gotta have a decent handbrake! :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

steering wheel on the wrong side !
It would be if you're driving on the wrong side as well. As it happens it's mighty handy when driving on the right side of the road :DHow lucky were you then. ;)

Your vehicle looks great and I really like the LT230 mechanism.

I think the problem with the steering wheels is that they are something like bakalite and when the outer finish wears off the wheels are finished. Soft tops left out in the open were the worst for degrading. It was simply easier to use the later plastic wheels.

[AV8R]

How lucky were you then. ;)

Your vehicle looks great and I really like the LT230 mechanism.

I think the problem with the steering wheels is that they are something like bakalite and when the outer finish wears off the wheels are finished. Soft tops left out in the open were the worst for degrading. It was simply easier to use the later plastic wheels.


Thank you Twice !

I am rebuilding an LT230 to part time 4WD and 1:1,003 ratio to finish the conversion properly.

And yes, the steering wheel is kinda fragile but still in pretty good shape. My car has been stored indoors most of the time and although we have much less sunshine than you, after 50 years it will certainly make a difference ;)