I almost cooked my diesel due to a faulty temp guage. I need an audible alarm.

[wedgetail37]

I almost cooked my diesel due to a faulty temp guage. I need an audible alarm for my 1998 D1 300TDI
Your opinion would be very helpful. Thank you - Gerry.:(;):D

[Sitec]

eBay. Watchdog TM3 or 4. :)

[pop058]

Low water alarm available from the shop on this site. :)

Dave's Interesting Things (http://davesitshop.com/emporium/index.php?_a=product&product_id=48)

[UncleHo]

Yup! Engine Saver is the way to go,we have one in the 300TDI D1 ;)

[CraigE]

x 2 foe engine saver available in the shop.

[simonmelb]

x 3 Engine saver for low water, plus this as well:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/196187-how-convert-your-ashtray-into-digital-engine-alarm-39-a-3.html

Can't have too much protection!

[discopete]

Or, if on limited budget some thing like this.

AC DC 12 24V Digital PID Dual Temperature Controller D1S 2R 24 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-DC-12-24V-Digital-PID-Dual-Temperature-Controller-D1S-2R-24-/230839162716'ssPageName=ADME:X:eRTM:AU:1123)

Thermocouple Sensors K Type With Washer | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thermocouple-Sensors-K-type-with-Washer-/380897237023?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item58af3e981f)

3 24V Electronic Tone Buzzer Alarm 95nu llContinuo usSou nd1 2VMounti ngSma | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-24V-Electronic-Tone-Buzzer-Alarm-95DB-Continuous-Sound-12V-Mounting-Small-/331283777772?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item4d220d48ec)

[wedgetail37]

Thank you all for your help. I hope all ya Chooks turn into Emus and lay bloody big eggs for ya Brekky. See ya - Gerry

[mox]

What I have is a simpler, cheaper and overall more foolproof way of reducing the risk of overheating a 300Tdi. than the likes of alarms. A temperature sensitive switch on the head. The wire from ignition switch to fuel solenoid on the injector pump goes through this switch which has spade electrical connectors on it. Contacts in the switch opens if head temperature gets to 105 degrees for whatever reason and motor stops. Also have a bypass switch installed so motor can be run for a short period, eg to drive off road if it stops at an inconvenient time. Best push button, so idiots cannot leave protection switch bypassed.


Have noticed when mentioning this setup on aulro in the past, the reaction is most likely someone will claim this is dangerous because the motor could stop in a situation like in the middle of an intersection. Then someone else will thank them for this "useful" post. Maybe this is influence from vendors selling alarms. I would encourage them to instead consider selling my type of protection, which does need alarms of low water sensors.

[Hogarthde]

Is the last sentence correct?

[Discofever]

I would like to purchase one safety measure for the 300tdi. Which one would everyone recommend I purchase first - the Engine Watchdog TM1 or the Low Water Sensor? I'll eventually get both when funds allow but which one first? Many thanks, John.

[wedgetail37]

Thanks Mox. Definately worth some thought.

[wedgetail37]

Hey RoverLord. Got the heater hoses today in Albany WA. Damn fast service. Thanks guys. Great job - Gerry (Wedgetail37)

[Blknight.aus]

What I have is a simpler, cheaper and overall more foolproof way of reducing the risk of overheating a 300Tdi. than the likes of alarms. A temperature sensitive switch on the head. The wire from ignition switch to fuel solenoid on the injector pump goes through this switch which has spade electrical connectors on it. Contacts in the switch opens if head temperature gets to 105 degrees for whatever reason and motor stops. Also have a bypass switch installed so motor can be run for a short period, eg to drive off road if it stops at an inconvenient time. Best push button, so idiots cannot leave protection switch bypassed.


Have noticed when mentioning this setup on aulro in the past, the reaction is most likely someone will claim this is dangerous because the motor could stop in a situation like in the middle of an intersection. Then someone else will thank them for this "useful" post. Maybe this is influence from vendors selling alarms. I would encourage them to instead consider selling my type of protection, which does need alarms of low water sensors.

Dangerous and potentially fatal to the engine, just cause you got it got doesn't mean you shut it down. If you've got it that hot and the coolant hasn't dropped. If you were working at a hard climb in too tall a fear you now can't downshift and cool the engine which will simply continue to stew in its own juices potentially rupturing stuff, whereas p being able to unnloand and keep the engine running at lower or no load will let the cooling system do it's thing.

The better way of doing it if your going to do it this way is to stage it so you get the warning alarm and then after about 20 seconds you get a shutdown. You should also set it up so that when your on the overheat shut down the ad fans kick in giving some air flow through the radiator, there's quite an effective thermocycle available by doing that.

If you've got it set up as a kit and want a hand nutting out how to hook it up drip me a pm.

This principle has been on trucks for quite some time along with an extended idle shutsown

[Dougal]

What I have is a simpler, cheaper and overall more foolproof way of reducing the risk of overheating a 300Tdi. than the likes of alarms. A temperature sensitive switch on the head. The wire from ignition switch to fuel solenoid on the injector pump goes through this switch which has spade electrical connectors on it. Contacts in the switch opens if head temperature gets to 105 degrees for whatever reason and motor stops. Also have a bypass switch installed so motor can be run for a short period, eg to drive off road if it stops at an inconvenient time. Best push button, so idiots cannot leave protection switch bypassed.


Have noticed when mentioning this setup on aulro in the past, the reaction is most likely someone will claim this is dangerous because the motor could stop in a situation like in the middle of an intersection. Then someone else will thank them for this "useful" post. Maybe this is influence from vendors selling alarms. I would encourage them to instead consider selling my type of protection, which does need alarms of low water sensors.
That's particularly dangerous for the driver and occupants to.

I was driving along the highway your honour, the ac kicked in, the engine got a little warmer and then cut out Competely!

I lost power steering, I lost vacuum brakes and all because some clown read a dangerous idea on a forum and decided to copy it!

[Jeff]

I have the Engine Watchdog TM4. It has an adjustable warning buzzer and is dead easy to install. It has a gearbox sensor which might be overkill for a manual, but you could put it on the front and the back of the head.

Jeff

:rocket:

[mox]

A major disadvantage of some types of engine protection systems, is if it relies on alarms or the protection system functioning to stop the motor or warm the operator is that you may unknowingly have no protection if something goes wrong with the system itself. Even just a wire falling off. Far safer with a setup like mine. Most things than go wrong with it cause the motor to stop or not start. Have heard of cases of cooked motors because of malfunction of non failsafe protection devices.


With my setup, if motor unexpectedly cuts out due to head getting hotter than temperature switch allows, effect is same as turning ignition switch off. Can immediately press override button next to it if desirable to drive off road, provide continued oil for turbo etc. With no protection device, often motor stopping with fatal damage is first symptom driver notices. Then power steering and vacuum brake assistance also does not function. Hopefully this does not occur in the occasional situation causing a problem stopping safely. Normally the steering and brakes still function but are much heavier than normal and with may be less responsive if driver cannot apply enough force.


Those who like the idea of warning alarms going off first when there is a problem can still have the cheap and more failsafe setup to stop the motor as backup if does not work. Or, as I have seen mentioned on this forum, if some ignorant driver with no understanding of protection devices just keeps going with alarm blaring. Sometimes offering excuse for cooking motor like "I was just trying to get home".

[Dougal]

A major disadvantage of some types of engine protection systems, is if it relies on alarms or the protection system functioning to stop the motor or warm the operator is that you may unknowingly have no protection if something goes wrong with the system itself. Even just a wire falling off. Far safer with a setup like mine. Most things than go wrong with it cause the motor to stop or not start. Have heard of cases of cooked motors because of malfunction of non failsafe protection devices.


With my setup, if motor unexpectedly cuts out due to head getting hotter than temperature switch allows, effect is same as turning ignition switch off. Can immediately press override button next to it if desirable to drive off road, provide continued oil for turbo etc. With no protection device, often motor stopping with fatal damage is first symptom driver notices. Then power steering and vacuum brake assistance also does not function. Hopefully this does not occur in the occasional situation causing a problem stopping safely. Normally the steering and brakes still function but are much heavier than normal and with may be less responsive if driver cannot apply enough force.


Those who like the idea of warning alarms going off first when there is a problem can still have the cheap and more failsafe setup to stop the motor as backup if does not work. Or, as I have seen mentioned on this forum, if some ignorant driver with no understanding of protection devices just keeps going with alarm blaring. Sometimes offering excuse for cooking motor like "I was just trying to get home".
As well as all the safety issues, immediately shutting down a hot engine is the absolute worst thing you can do to it.

The turbo spinning at up to 100k rpm with a turbine up to 700c suddenly loses oil feed and oil cooling.
The water circulation in the cooling passages stops so that water immediately overheats and boils locally. Creating steam pockets.

Then on restart you get thermal shock as colder water rushes back in and the steam pockets implode.

There is no good point about your system.

[Jeff]

A major disadvantage of some types of engine protection systems, is if it relies on alarms or the protection system functioning to stop the motor or warm the operator is that you may unknowingly have no protection if something goes wrong with the system itself. Even just a wire falling off. Far safer with a setup like mine. Most things than go wrong with it cause the motor to stop or not start. Have heard of cases of cooked motors because of malfunction of non failsafe protection devices.


With my setup, if motor unexpectedly cuts out due to head getting hotter than temperature switch allows, effect is same as turning ignition switch off. Can immediately press override button next to it if desirable to drive off road, provide continued oil for turbo etc. With no protection device, often motor stopping with fatal damage is first symptom driver notices. Then power steering and vacuum brake assistance also does not function. Hopefully this does not occur in the occasional situation causing a problem stopping safely. Normally the steering and brakes still function but are much heavier than normal and with may be less responsive if driver cannot apply enough force.


Those who like the idea of warning alarms going off first when there is a problem can still have the cheap and more failsafe setup to stop the motor as backup if does not work. Or, as I have seen mentioned on this forum, if some ignorant driver with no understanding of protection devices just keeps going with alarm blaring. Sometimes offering excuse for cooking motor like "I was just trying to get home".

But yours could malfunction just as likely as the warning devices.

Jeff

:rocket:

[BigBlackDog]

Jeff beat me to it, what makes your design "fail safe" Mox? it still relies on your temp wire being intact presumably?

I think it should be up to the driver when to shut off the engine, the situation dictates different responses. I had an oil line blow off a few weeks ago. The low pressue light came on but I was at the top of a steep windy bit of road doing almost 100, no where to pull ver so I kept it running for the 30 seconds to get down the hill safely and off the road. If I had shut it down straight away I would have lost power steering a brake assist - I'd prefer to have damaged an engine than cause an accident cause the guy in front of me braked and I ran up his bum

It would be fair to say modern motors don't just turn off, they go into limp mode, but you still have the ancillary services then

[mox]

[QUOTE=Jeff;2280545]But yours could malfunction just as likely as the warning devices.


Wrong! Whether a protection system shuts down the motor or sets off warning devices, one which has to function properly for the motor to run is more fail safe than one that has to function to shut it down or set off an alarm. Bloke at instrument place where I first bought my setup around 30 years ago, which have had installed on tractors ( especially running unattended driving pumps from power take off) and headers (combine harvesters) as well as vehicles, pointed out that he felt guilty at having sold a bloke another protection system, which I previously had which failed, resulting in cooked motor. ie Murphy switchgage.


When temperature gauge pointer touches set fixed pointer ( after which it cannot indicate a higher temperature), it earths out wire coming out of gauge. This completes the circuit to operate shutdown or alarm. It some problem, often a simple one such as a corroded electrical connection occurs, there is no power to operate protection device. Result is no warning or shutdown if motor overheats. What is desirable is a system that has to function for the motor to run or stop alarm from going off. So that it stops or alarm (which should be tested regularly) activates if something goes wrong with the protection system.


On diesels with mechanical shutoff , have used a fuel solenoid in line between secondary fuel filter and injector pump. When this closes, motor stops slowly as if from a fuel block. For a vehicle, would be relatively simple to install a bypass with a restrictor to give a "limp mode" effect. Sudden reduced power should alert driver that something is wrong and to check why. This is if a bypass switch /button which can be immediately activated if motor stops is not deemed sufficient.


Re shutting down hot motors, is important that turbo has slowed down so it is not damaged when oil flow stops. So if motor stops suddenly when under load for whatever reason, is important to quickly restart it for at least a short time or at least wind it with starter. Note this is not possible with seized overheated motor.


95 or 105 degree temperature sensitive switches on the head will usually function before loss of water from overheating occurs unless loss of water for some other reason was the basic cause. In either case continuing to run motor to cool it is unlikely to achieve much. Best if motor is stopped or overheating problem rectified well before it heats to the stage special care is necessary to try and avoid damage cooling it. Some trying to knock system I have described on this point just highlight their lack of experience of it.

[Dougal]

But yours could malfunction just as likely as the warning devices.

Wrong! Whether a protection system shuts down the motor or sets off warning devices, one which has to function properly for the motor to run is more fail safe than one that has to function to shut it down or set off an alarm. Bloke at instrument place where I first bought my setup around 30 years ago, which have had installed on tractors ( especially running unattended driving pumps from power take off) and headers (combine harvesters) as well as vehicles, pointed out that he felt guilty at having sold a bloke another protection system, which I previously had which failed, resulting in cooked motor. ie Murphy switchgage.

Jeff is entirely correct. You are relying on a temperature sender in a normal part of it's operation and a fuel cut solenoid. If the wire falls off the temp sender, the gauge goes to zero and your method won't work.
Futher, if your modifications to the fuel cut wire have issues you'll have an engine cut-out when you shouldn't.

What some other bloke did 30 years ago doesn't matter.


When temperature gauge pointer touches set fixed pointer ( after which it cannot indicate a higher temperature), it earths out wire coming out of gauge. This completes the circuit to operate shutdown or alarm. It some problem, often a simple one such as a corroded electrical connection occurs, there is no power to operate protection device. Result is no warning or shutdown if motor overheats. What is desirable is a system that has to function for the motor to run or stop alarm from going off. So that it stops or alarm (which should be tested regularly) activates if something goes wrong with the protection system.

On diesels with mechanical shutoff , have used a fuel solenoid in line between secondary fuel filter and injector pump. When this closes, motor stops slowly as if from a fuel block. For a vehicle, would be relatively simple to install a bypass with a restrictor to give a "limp mode" effect. Sudden reduced power should alert driver that something is wrong and to check why. This is if a bypass switch /button which can be immediately activated if motor stops is not deemed sufficient.

Murphy switch type devices are only ever used in industrial settings. They are never, ever used in passenger vehicles as leaving the driver suddenly without power is incredibly dangerous.

There are also two settings on modern industrial engine controllers in the event of oil pressure loss or water over-heat. One is shut-down and the other is "run to destruction".

Because even in purely industrial settings there are many times when you absolutely cannot shut down an engine without warning. Engines can be rebuilt/replaced far more easily and cheaply than people can.


Re shutting down hot motors, is important that turbo has slowed down so it is not damaged when oil flow stops. So if motor stops suddenly when under load for whatever reason, is important to quickly restart it for at least a short time or at least wind it with starter. Note this is not possible with seized overheated motor.

Turbo slow down is not the main problem. Turbo cool-down is.
If you shut off oil to a turbo operating near full load (700C exhaust temp) then your remaining oil in the bearing housing turns to tar.

Winding it over with the starter won't help this at all.


95 or 105 degree temperature sensitive switches on the head will usually function before loss of water from overheating occurs unless loss of water for some other reason was the basic cause. In either case continuing to run motor to cool it is unlikely to achieve much. Best if motor is stopped or overheating problem rectified well before it heats to the stage special care is necessary to try and avoid damage cooling it. Some trying to knock system I have described on this point just highlight their lack of experience of it.

95-105C is normal operating temperature with no danger to anything.

With a 15psi radiator cap plain water won't boil until 120C. Glycol raises this boiling point even further.

The last point you seem to have missed entirely. The best way to cool down a hot diesel is to keep running it with reduced load. Even with all safety issues aside, stopping it dead is the worst thing you can do.
Stopping it dead because it got to 95-105C is especially dangerous and pointless.

[mox]

Best to cool an overheating motor by continuing to run it with reduced or no load if cooling system is still functioning adequately. However, situations such as loss of drive to water pump and/or fan, eg due to belt failure or major loss of coolant so it can no longer circulate, to minimise damage motor should be stopped ASAP.


Dougal obviously does not understand setup I explained. based on a temperature sensitive SWITCH, not sender unit. Switch opens when temperature gets to its specified level. so power to whatever allows motor to keep going or stops warning system from operating is cut off. So a failure in the circuit causes the protection system to operate. Much better than the other way around, with it operated by power being switched on. Like air brake systems on trucks etc. Problem with old "air on" type is that if there is some problem causing lack of air, brakes cannot be applied. Can be disastrous if this is just discovered when brake application is needed immediately. The "air off" type are much safer. Loss of air holding brakes off results in them immediately being applied. Loss of compressed air supply or reserve means that if brakes are applied, there is no air to release them. So brake failures largely result in not being able to move vehicle rather than not being able to stop it.

[Dougal]

Best to cool an overheating motor by continuing to run it with reduced or no load if cooling system is still functioning adequately. However, situations such as loss of drive to water pump and/or fan, eg due to belt failure or major loss of coolant so it can no longer circulate, to minimise damage motor should be stopped ASAP.

Your system has no warning device for those situations. Only the downstream effect of water temp.

Where the alternator light coming on is a dead giveaway.


Dougal obviously does not understand setup I explained. based on a temperature sensitive SWITCH, not sender unit.

Semantics. Using a NO vs NC switch just increases the likelyhood of your system killing the engine on someone in a dangerous situation.

[vnx205]

So have I got this right?

You have a switch which must be functioning correctly for your engine to run.

Since switches can fail, doesn't that mean that your engine could suddenly stop in an embarrassing, inconvenient or dangerous situation even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the coolant level, the cooling system or the whole engine?

EDIT:
Didn't VW get into all sorts of strife because they had a car that was capable of suddenly stopping for no reason? Didn't a woman die when that happened to her VW?

[mox]

Your system has no warning device for those situations. Only the downstream effect of water temp.

Where the alternator light coming on is a dead giveaway.


Semantics. Using a NO vs NC switch just increases the likelyhood of your system killing the engine on someone in a dangerous situation.



Setup I explained is a cheap and simple way of protecting motor from overheating from a range of causes. One possibility is large quick loss of water from eg split bottom radiator hose. Overheating may then not even register on water temperature gauge but temperature sensitive switch will respond. Alternator light coming on just indicates alternator is not charging. One possible reason is failure of belt which also drives water pump. If this occurs, driver may notice it and may or may not stop before temperature sensitive switch which in this case could be backup protection opens. In this situation some drivers are likely to initially think it would be an alternator malfunction problem to have looked at later, Not an urgent overheating one.


Remember motors can also stop in dangerous situations from fatal overheating. With an override switch, probably push button next to ignition switch, can often push it well before motor stops completely. Could then keep going even under full load for a short time without cooking motor. I have had switch open on header (ie combine harvester) several times. Largely due to radiator or radiator screen getting blocked with dust while under heavy load. In this situation, it simply involved disengaging separator and driving back to bins for cleaning job. Water temp will quickly come back on lightly loaded motor but needs to cool a lot more to reset switch. Meanwhile, usually not even any water loss from pressurised radiator cap.

[BigBlackDog]

I see what you are saying about having a quick way to get your engine going again, but how long do you really think that will take. You might have trained yourself to react quick and hit that button if need be, but what if someone else is driving your car? If a motor stops, the usual reaction is WTF, followed by fumbling too find the right way of getting it going, by which stage 5 seconds could be enough for the truck to clean you up
On a tractor or piece of industrial machinery it would be a great system. No danger if the thing just stops. If my plane engine has a problem it doesn't shut down to protect itself, that could kill me. In some situations you can shut it down, in others you run it to destruction. Remember, you can replace an engine, you can't replace a life

[BadCo.]

Back to the original post, I always thought Mad Man's EMS1 looked like a better option the the Engine Watchdog devices.