The real reason Defenders don't have an ANCAP rating

[FeatherWeightDriver]

'Nuff said really... :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/412.jpg

(apologies if this has been posted before)

[tuesdayfox]

Okay, I have seen this multiple times

I wonder whether this ad was made by toyota or some other competitors
because clearly it shows the test dummy knew he (as the passenger, or a pedestrian) would not survive a crash in a defender???

Am I reading it wrong?:confused::confused::confused:

[PAT303]

Yet real crashes on real roads by real people prove otherwise. Pat

[Loubrey]

Okay, I have seen this multiple times

I wonder whether this ad was made by toyota or some other competitors
because clearly it shows the test dummy knew he (as the passenger, or a pedestrian) would not survive a crash in a defender???

Am I reading it wrong?:confused::confused::confused:

Most probably fake by some anti-Defender advocate. Genuine Land Rover adds always has writing in white font, often just the word "Defender".

Although there's been quite a few adds pulled over the years for being ambiguous, having unintentional double-entendre and sometimes just completely the wrong message for the brand...

I've however seen some absolute wrecks of Defenders where no one was hurt. Usually the other car doesn't fair too well. Was it last year that one fell down a cliff somewhere in Southern England and both people walked away unharmed?

As they say, we share the other car's crumple zones!

Cheers,

Lou

[isuzurover]

Yet real crashes on real roads by real people prove otherwise. Pat

Indeed. Real data a few years back showed defenders were the safest vehicles on UK roads.

[MLD]

Indeed. Real data a few years back showed defenders were the safest vehicles on UK roads.

hard to get a head of steam up on a County backroad in the UK in a Defender. For the Defender in the UK it's not a crash but a mere nudge at low speed.

Do running over sheep in paddocks get counted in the stats :p

I'd rather be in the Defender in a crash than my wife's Volvo. And that is saying something given the Volvo safety specs.

MLD

[Jeff]

They are also much safer for pedestrians than they are given credit for. I wish all cars had thin upright A-Pillars like Defenders. At least twice a week I have a close call with cars not seeing me walking because of their A-Pillars. Never happens with a Defender.

Jeff

:rocket:

[PAT303]

Indeed. Real data a few years back showed defenders were the safest vehicles on UK roads.

Stop agreeing with me,your making me feel uncomfortable :p. Pat

[2stroke]

They are also much safer for pedestrians than they are given credit for. I wish all cars had thin upright A-Pillars like Defenders. At least twice a week I have a close call with cars not seeing me walking because of their A-Pillars. Never happens with a Defender.

Jeff

:rocket:
My current work ute is a Ranger and I know what you mean, between the fat pillars, decorative plastic bits and the massive mirrors the front visibility is woefull, can't see much when turning right.Makes you wonder sometimes how it deserves a high ANCAP.

[solmanic]

Couldn't resist posting this one...

http://youtu.be/_p1c8d_Hieg

[AussieAub]

Was it last year that one fell down a cliff somewhere in Southern England and both people walked away unharmed?

No Lou, they jumped out before it got to the cliff edge.
Don't think anyone would have survived that, not even with airbags!

[pannawonica]

Plagiarism, is something I would never levy against MB. I wonder where they got their styling clues from.:D What about the price?:lol2::lol2:

[defender_i_hardly_know_er]

Sometimes I wonder how the defender would hold up after watching heaps of those dash cam videos...

You like to lie to yourself and think that you're the safest driver out there rar rar rargh then something like this happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xKRAadgHJk

[KarlB]

Plenty of this stuff around. The first is the original ...


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/627.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/628.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/629.jpg

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[tacr2man]

this is one of the cliff fall survivors , there have beenat least two that i recall ,
Land Rover Cliff Jumper (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Wrecks_Cliff_jumper.htm) :eek:

[Didge]

I think you'd find the Defender would perform pretty much the same as the Bel Air in this test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
or the volvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCecdOBCFjI
etc, etc - despite our love for our Defenders, etc there doesn't seem to be much evidence to suggest older designs are safer.
Yes, I know a smart car full of airbags isn't going to provide that much protection but neither will 2 tonnes of rigid frame that transfers all the energy to the occupants.

[lebanon]

I think you'd find the Defender would perform pretty much the same as the Bel Air in this test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
or the volvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCecdOBCFjI
etc, etc - despite our love for our Defenders, etc there doesn't seem to be much evidence to suggest older designs are safer.
Yes, I know a smart car full of airbags isn't going to provide that much protection but neither will 2 tonnes of rigid frame that transfers all the energy to the occupants.

That is why a new designed safer Defender is needed. The task is gigantic to keep the same shape with a modern design that offers crash safety for the occupants.

An external roll cage is on top of my priorities for the defender to answer in a way this issue.

[Jeff]

I don't believe the government propaganda that's why I have ordered one of the last Defenders, should be here in April. :D

Jeff

:rocket:

[Didge]

Wish I had the coin to do the same :D

[JDNSW]

Over the last thirty or so years, the motoring world has pushed crash survivability as the only criterion for safety. Admittedly there have been marked improvements in other areas, such as better brakes, better tyres, better steering, better suspension and handling, but these have been countered by steady increases in power/weight ratio, deteriorating driver vision, insulation of the driver from road conditions etc.

The Defender has a consistently good accident record, mainly, I suspect, because the major factor in accidents is the driver, and drivers that choose Defenders are generally safer drivers. But the low power/weight ratio and good vision for the driver undoubtedly help.

John

[jasonedu]

just to repeat what others have said: actual figures from the UK Department of transport show that the Defender is one of the safest cars to be in if you are in a two vehicle collision. This isn't based on tests, it is based on actual casualties.

They would be even safer if they had air bags of course but it is not a major concern for me.

[Jeff]

Like this?

http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o646/Jeff_8/1964971_1582972021931943_576429477096901650_n_zps0 65ae3ca.jpg (http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/Jeff_8/media/1964971_1582972021931943_576429477096901650_n_zps0 65ae3ca.jpg.html)

Jeff

:rocket:

[Mick_Marsh]

Got to say, I'm with Solmanic on this one.

You want to see some old car crash tests. Bear in mind, the ADR's do not require seat belts to be installed in these models. Mine do have seat belts installed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpsVqW-4pwU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO10OzJPC3U

Now, who wants an old Merc?

[voltron]

Ive seen a few Defender outcomes where it has rolled and the occupants have walked away. One around Rockhampton and his aftermarket rim exploded whilst doing 110km/hr. Collapsed the roof and he still walked away. Another was posted on here where his friend rolled his 90 and did a good job on the vehicle as well and walked away. In a head on situation it is hard to think that any amount of safety can help when you consider alot of the modern 4WD's have the ability to do silly speeds and do so. That amount of mass coming to a sudden halt isnt going to have much hope. I appreciate DSC, ABS and mechanical safety measures really can be the difference between life and death but speed and mass at the end of the day is probably always going to be the most contributing factor.

[lebanon]

Over the last thirty or so years, the motoring world has pushed crash survivability as the only criterion for safety. Admittedly there have been marked improvements in other areas, such as better brakes, better tyres, better steering, better suspension and handling, but these have been countered by steady increases in power/weight ratio, deteriorating driver vision, insulation of the driver from road conditions etc.

The Defender has a consistently good accident record, mainly, I suspect, because the major factor in accidents is the driver, and drivers that choose Defenders are generally safer drivers. But the low power/weight ratio and good vision for the driver undoubtedly help.

John

I agree that drivers who choose Defenders are generally safer frivers, but the concern comes from other road users.

A defender has nothing but aluminum sheets for protection in a side collision situation.

[JDNSW]

I agree that drivers who choose Defenders are generally safer frivers, but the concern comes from other road users.

A defender has nothing but aluminum sheets for protection in a side collision situation.

Yes, but in a side collision with most vehicles, the collision would be largely below the passenger space. A collision which penetrates the passenger space of a Defender would be protected by glass rather than the side intrusion protection in a conventional car. And perhaps a little emotive to refer to the side protection as aluminium sheets, considering they have had steel doors since 2007, unless I am mistaken.

John

[woodsa]

Don't get me wrong, I love defenders.. but..:wasntme:

I work as a crash test engineer in melbourne and vehicle safety is the single reason I don't own a defender. In fact it is the single reason I don't even drive a land rover regularly any more (as the newest I could afford was a SII disco).

The real killer in Australia is run off road crashes into a roadside objects (especially when combined with a roll over). Hence there is no other cars crumple zone when you hit a tree, or embankment. Especially considering the defenders I've looked at haven't had stability control the likelihood of hitting the tree on an angle is quite high.

Frontal impacts -; I do think the chassis of a defender is going to be rigid enough to maintain occupant space in the case of a large overlap frontal impact, but there is almost no way there is enough space and enough 'cushion' to provide a controlled deceleration to the occupants head/chest in anything but the most minor or controlled incident, especially considering the stiffness of the chassis leading to bigger accelerations in the cabin.

Frontal slightly angled impacts -; I would think the chance of injury or death would be massive in a defender. firstly there is little strength in the A-pillar to protect the occupant from anything that doesn't catch the chassis rail. Secondly there is no soft impact available for the A-pillar, no curtain airbag to attempt to reach the A-pillar etc and little padding for head, feet, knees, etc..

Rear impact-; you want an extremely good seat that stops you climbing over the top and supports each part of your vertebrae.

Side impact (other vehicle) you'll want a rigid side structure to maintain your occupant space and something soft to accelerate you out of the area (i.e. foam/plastic or an airbag..) Defender really has none of that. Just hope whatever hits you goes under the seat..

Side impact (roadside object) Usually requires a rigid side structure, head protection and side cushioning (airbags), and the ability for the seat to move into the centre of the vehicle (out of the deformation).

Rollover -; deaths occur here from head impacts leading to spine and brain injuries, curtain airbags, strong pillars with padded roof and very good seatbelts with pre-tensioners are best.

Sorry..:nazilock: I should probably be banned now..

I've seen vehicles without airbags do quite well occasionally. But the truth is vehicles like the proton jumbuck are the worst I've seen, and it wasn't because of a lack of airbags. It was just that is was designed in the late 80's before anyone really invested millions into CAD simulations and vehicle safety.

Jumbuck
Proton Jumbuck 2003 ANCAP Crash Test (1 star) - YouTube

airbags comparison-;
http://youtu.be/NACA1W2A5Wk

Disco II -;
http://youtu.be/AIJFLVkCuuI

[PAT303]

And I was an Ambulance officer for three years and my experience was it doesn't matter what you drive,hit a tree above 60 or a similar object/vehicle and all the air bags,crumple zones etc wont save you,Ambo's just joke that most safety devises just keep the body in one piece,you get a sick sense of humour seeing what we see,I've also experienced people with the latest 5 star vehicle suffer injury and people driving vehicles that aren't even road worthy walk away,in the lab you can test all you want but I've never been to two crashes the same,real world crashes can only be compared to real world crashes. Pat

[Loubrey]

This thread started out as a light hearted picture, but if we're going down these lines we might as well compare facts.

Looking at all the crash test data I must be one of the unlikely survivors then! A bit of a long post, but bear with me...

In 1999 I was working in the northern province of Zambia on a road project. Travelling between the regional "capital" and the project compound I was travelling at a decent speed between 60 and 70 km/h in my work Defender trying to beat sun down (a lot more stuff to hit in the dark in that part of the world).

Coming around a sweeping right hand bend there were three small children playing in the road. I immediately came off the accelerator and headed to sweep around them on the left hand side. Unfortunately, that is exactly where they ran to so I tightened up on the turn to try and go inside them. At this point they stopped and turned around and again ran straight in front of the car.

No other option I "monkey grabbed" the steering wheel in a left hand turn in a desparate attempt to miss them, which started and uncontrolled slide towards to V drain on the left hand side of the road. The first tree I hit with the left hand corner of the bulbar (no crumple zones remember) turned the Defender square to the direction of travel and the right hand wheel hit a termite mound sending the Defender into a flying driver side first roll.

First impact was the roof corner next to my head which obviously gave me a decent whack to the head and the rest was a green and brown blur until the fourth roll stopped with the Defender driver's side down. I was a bit whoozy, but I switched the engine off, undid the seatbelt and stepping on the cubby box scrabbled up and out of the passenger side window.

Sitting next to the car, at least 50km from camp, 200km from the nearest town and just starting to get dark in Africa... Luckily a crowd of locals materialized from the bushes and after a bit of negotiation about ten of us rolled the Defender back on its wheels. Surveying the damage, the bulbar was 95% straight, the passenger side window pillar was bent enough to have the windscreen popped out (cracked, but intact), but the roofrack (1997 Front Runner) was cactus and so was my roof top tent.

After about an hour, I thought the engine oil would have settled back into the sump and if it was going to start, that was as good a time as any. The Defender started first swing and was happily ticking over. I took the windscreen out and placed it in the back and we set off gently heading to camp wearing clear goggles and a shirt tied on my lower face to try and keep every bug in Africa from hitting me in the face!

Next morning we assessed the damage - The roof rack had to be cut off as it was knackered and over the next three day we did some botch repairs to the car, including mounting the cracked windscreen back. 2 weeks later a convoy headed back to Lusaka the capital and I drove the Defender back on the 1100km journey to have it repaired for the total of 1425 GBP (USD or GBP only in that part of the world)

So as Pat said, according do crash test data I should probably not have made it, but real world situation very seldom if ever reflects lab data and I will still prefer my Defender if I have to be in a similar situation.

Copy from Land Rover's Wiki Page:

Model-by-model road accident statistics from the UK Department for Transport show that the Land Rover Defender is one of the safest cars on British roads as measured by chance of death in two-car injury accidents.[44] The figures, which were based on data collected by police forces following accidents between 2000 and 2004 in Great Britain, showed that Defender drivers had a 1% chance of being killed or seriously injured and a 33% chance of sustaining any kind of injury. Other four-wheel-drive vehicles scored equally highly, and collectively these vehicles were much safer for their passengers than those in other classes such as passenger cars and MPVs. These figures reflect the fact that drivers of large mass vehicles are likely to be safer, often at the expense of other drivers if they collide with smaller cars.

Cheers,

Lou

[woodsa]

Hi Pat,

You're not wrong, but I don't see the point. I agree not many crashes are identical.

However as you have dedicated time stopping people from dying from injuries I have spent my time trying to prevent them from getting injuries.

I have read a great deal of studies that show the dramatic decrease in deaths and injuries when almost identical crashes are compared with different safety equipment. I have no doubt they help.

Yes some people survive without seatbelts, and some people die with airbags. Some people that play Russian roulette live and some die. doesn't mean shooting a gun at your head is safe. On average your better off with a seatbelt and your also better off not firing a gun at your head.

Yes hitting a tree at 60km/h is about the threshold of many modern cars can keep most people safe, although with the narrow offset testing being done by IIHS does show there are serious differences when replicating almost that exact circumstance;

http://youtu.be/lPL0Vi_8fiI

http://youtu.be/lrHYl9D5CTI

[woodsa]

Alright, I shouldn't have got involved in a thread that was light hearted. I guess I was drawn to the thread because it is a topic of obvious interest to me..

On the fact that the land rover defender had the best UK numbers crash statistics. It does better than some but not that well in Australia..

Here is a nice statistical assessment of crash records in Australia.

"http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/muarc318.pdf"

on Page 88 you can see the actual statistics;

Defenders 77 injuries 28 severely injured in Australia and New Zealand

this leads to a injury risk (the risk of injury given crash involvement) as the following; (page 112)

Defender 14.56 % (not bad in its category but not statistically significant enough to be confident)

for comparison a Volvo XC90 7.55 %

Edit:
Though I agree that the UK evidence is confidence inspiring in the defender, especially considering the sample size does seem significant;
http://web.archive.org/web/20080929141339/http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221552/228196/228215/carsmakeandmodeltheriskofdri1801

[Jeff]

Coming on the Defender forum to rubbish Defenders is like walking into a church and telling the people they are the wrong religion, and saying you have the facts to prove them wrong.

Many, when given the choice between Volvos and death, would choose death.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Loubrey]

Though I agree that the UK evidence is confidence inspiring in the defender, especially considering the sample size does seem significant;
http://web.archive.org/web/20080929141339/http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221552/228196/228215/carsmakeandmodeltheriskofdri1801

This was sitting a bit forlorn at the bottom of the post...

Amen Jeff! :D:D:D

Cheers,

Lou

[JDNSW]

The muarc318 report analyses the crashworthiness of vehicles. It does not analyse the safety of vehicles, only one aspect, that of safety when involved in an accident, taking no note of the probability of involvement in an accident.

Other muarc reports based on comparing accident reports from insurance company data and comparing these to the numbers of the vehicle in use show that accident, injury and death rates are low for large four wheel drives including the Defender. The highest rates of accidents, injury and death are all cars that score well in crashworthiness, but are high performance and favoured by car thieves.

John

[Michael2]

'Nuff said really... :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/412.jpg

(apologies if this has been posted before)

He's no dummy, he knows what this car will be worth once it goes out of production. There's no way he wants to crash it.

[AndyG]

If I understand correctly, ANCAP measures safety after the crash incident, not 'dynamic' safety leading up to or potentially avoiding it.
For example
Driver visibility
Max road speed
Max braking distance at max speed
Stability, permanent 4wd a plus
Etc

So on a Defender theme your unlikely to see a pair of burn out marks just before a gum tree.

Posting facts about Defender accidents, is not bagging the product, rather it's a justification for a ROPS :angel:

[woodsa]

I'm not rubbishing defenders.

Just because I don't think the Defender is a benchmark of passive or active safety doesn't mean I don't like them or understand why others do.

I don't think a John Deere is a benchmark of passive or active safety either but I still think they are a great bit of kit.

I'm not trying to preach, just wanted to discuss a topic of interest.

[PAT303]

Remember that vehicles get a star for pedestrian safety and for having ABS brakes and stability control,none of which will do anything to protect you if you crash. Pat

[isuzurover]

Professional race/rally cars are probably the safest car to be in in an accident. No airbags, ABS or stability control, just an excellent roll cage and harness system.

There is no reason you couldn't make a defender just as safe by installing a properly designed cage and harnesses. Except that you can't drive around wearing a helmet and the b-pillar is close to your head in a side-on.

[YOLO110]

Spot on!

Perhaps we should all ditch the 'how cool my car looks inside' as the girls apply their lippy looking in the illuminated sun visor mirror... and instead fit roll cages, 5 point harnesses and all wear helmets as standard in every car!

Drop head porky drivers would rebel... we would not as NO one would see us anyway! :>)

[PAT303]

From what I've seen on the road I think we would have less crashes if people actually drove while driving,driving a vehicle while driving seems to be about 5th on the list of important things to do for a lot of people. Pat

[spudfan]

Was sitting in the Puma 110 outside school one morning talking to my daughter about the day ahead (my daughter has special needs). My daughter brought my attention to the Ford Fiesta parked in front of us. It's reversing lights came on and it travelled backwards until it was stopped by the Puma's bumper. "That is not good" says my daughter. I got out and went to the Fiesta. The woman got out all flustered. She said she did'nt see my car even though I was parked behind her with the side lights on. I told her to go home as there was no harm done. Some days later I saw the same woman at the school in a new car - I just had to replace the number plate which had cracked.