How much 2stroke oil to add?

[mattg]

Hi am I have a bottle of Penrite 2 stroke and I was wondering how much I should add to the 80ltr of fuel to smith things out. And do you run this all the time or just every 3rd tank kind of thing.
I am deEGRed and centre muffler removed.

Cheers Matt

[Slunnie]

none :D

[bsperka]

none :D

X100

[Ancient Mariner]

Wot you don't run oil in your crystal aligner:eek::no2::thumbsdown:

[Jason789]

Hmmmmm.......Mercedez Benz must have got it all wrong then !!!!!

And then we will have the people who want a standardized bench test done to Australian Standards to prove that it works, but have nothing to prove it doesn't work.(A bit like God lives in a teapot on the dark side of Saturn...You prove he doesn't live there)

Less mechanical noise means less mechanical wear. Why does the motor run so much more quietly with 2stroke added to it????

And on and on and on it goes.

Oh and about 470ml 2stroke to a 95 litre tank is about right(approxomately a 200:1 mix). It's cheaper to buy in 20+ litre containers and semi-synthetic is the better choice.

Cheers,

Jason

[Slunnie]

Does LandRover or any fuel supplier recommend adding oil to diesel?

[Basil135]

none :D


X100

x1000


I added 2 stroke to every tank for 9 months straight, and not only could not hear or feel any difference, I could not measure any difference in fuel economy either.

Save yourself the time, effort & money.

[isuzurover]

...

Oh and about 470ml 2stroke to a 95 litre tank is about right(approxomately a 200:1 mix).

...

Given you acknowledge a lack of quantitative data, how has this magic number been reached???

p.s. I tried it once in a 300Tdi. Noticed no difference in noise or fuel consumption. I notice more difference running bio or canola.

[wayne]

My 130 runs a lot smoother and quieter. It is noticeable in my vehicle. I know a few Nissan guys who also say the vehicle has a lot less engine clatter.

[bsperka]

Wot you don't run oil in your crystal aligner:eek::no2::thumbsdown:

No. It upsets the quasi mumbo jumbo hyperisation of the atomic alignment that causes the crystalisation of subatomic participate that generates more fuel than exists at the beginning of the cycle. I have spreadsheets to prove it.

[Ancient Mariner]

Gotta be genuine:D Suits even anti clockwise aligners:p

[bsperka]

Gotta be genuine:D Suits even anti clockwise aligners:p

How did you know about that.... it's still under development! !!

[123rover50]

Filter your used engine oil and chuck that in instead:D

[onebob]

Filter your used engine oil and chuck that in instead:D

.... don't laugh! i was researching alternative Diff and Trans Box oils yesterday and some bloke on a UK forum does exactly that - no waste is wasted - it's feed back to the beast:D

onebob

[johnb44]

200 to 1 mix or 400ml to 80 litres

[discorevy]

I had to stop using it. Couldn't even drive past a motocross track without the car shedding 2 wheels and hitting the tabletops .
Would've been funny if I hadn't loaned it to a little old lady so she could get to church that day:D

[Steve Td5 130]

Hi All

I have been using Flashlube diesel injector cleaner in my defender & discovery for years at a rate of 1ml per litre every second tank.
Both vehicles run very well.

The Defender has a chip in it and when using the Flashlube has less black smoke coming from the exhaust when you plant your boot into it.

When fuelling at a country fuel station a few weeks ago I did not notice on the stand alone fuel pump had diesel on one side and petrol 98 octane on the other
and you can guess what comes now the defender got 7 litres of petrol and
60 litres of diesel and is now going like a rocket and has also reduce the black smoke some more ( the tail pipe has gone from jet black in colour to about 3-4 shades lighter to a mid range grey ) the fuel economy seams much better at this point to.
Will keep you posted

Some of the transport companies I have worked for in the past have always reused the engine oil by filtering it through a magnetic tray followed by a fine filter before adding it to there diesel tanks along with dot 3 brake fluid to increase the burn rate.
To sum it up reusing your waste oil to lubricate the injectors and brake fluid to clean the injectors and to improve the power.

Cheers

Steve

[discolaw]

Given it would be a marketing bonanza for them, do any 2 stroke oil producers claim it is beneficial to add it to diesel. None as far as I know but anyone is welcome to prove me wrong.

[Bushie]

If you don't add it though, there is some evidence that the life of the muffler bearings is shortened.

You'll only need to replace them once (pig of a job) and you will add oil to your fuel.


Martyn

[Fluids]

My spark plugs kept fouling up so I stopped using it.

Sent from my iPad using Braille

[Slunnie]

My biggest concern would be deposits through the exhaust system.

[Ancient Mariner]

My biggest concern would be deposits through the exhaust system.
You just need to drive it harder!


(Sorry)

[Slunnie]

You just need to drive it harder!


(Sorry)
You're probably absolutely correct! :lol2:

:burnrubber:

[mattg]

I love this discussion. Asked a simple question and look what's happened. Very entertaining.

I figure I may as well have a go. I have a decibel reader so I will test before and after and see if I can quantify a change in noise.

Cheers Matt

[gusthedog]

If you need oil in your fuel you might also need a hiclone, a k&n filter and some fuel magnets too. I mean heresay carries so much more weight on the internet than years of development by car manufacturers. I mean what would they know? :)

[CountP]

If you need oil in your fuel you might also need a hiclone, a k&n filter and some fuel magnets too. I mean heresay carries so much more weight on the internet than years of development by car manufacturers. I mean what would they know? :)
.......and the circle is complete.

Can't we all agree to disagree on this topic, instead of going around and around in circles?
Even if it is a placebo, if it makes some sleep better at night what's the problem with that?
Hell if I could some fairy dust I would sprinkle it on my Td5.

[bsperka]

Just for a laugh read what specifications and tests the fuel manufacturers perform. 5 pages of detail at a high level. Spray patterns, centi strokes, lubrication - hmmm starting to sound like an advert for a xxx film.
I've got to pass all of these tests for the fuel from my crystal aligner. I just can't randomly throw in some goat's blood and hope its better than the unicorn saliva (although tests are continuing - its sooo much cheaper as an additive).

[mattg]

I just wish I could find a flux Capacitor. I'm still going to try it with the oil I have and measure it if there is no difference in noise I'll move on.

[bee utey]

I just wish I could find a flux Capacitor.
Try ebay.

Back TO THE Future Flux Capacitor Acrylic Executive Display Piece OR Paperweight | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Back-To-The-Future-Flux-Capacitor-Acrylic-Executive-Display-Piece-or-Paperweight-/151486480381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23454c3ffd)

I've even found the correct operating button to suit.

Stainless Steel Flux Capacitor Switch FOR Back TO THE Future Delorean 1980 1982 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STAINLESS-STEEL-FLUX-CAPACITOR-SWITCH-FOR-BACK-TO-THE-FUTURE-DELOREAN-1980-1982-/171370223977?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27e6761969)

And the warning sticker (mandatory!)

Flux Capacitor IN Operation Funny Warning Sticker 1 21 Gigawatts Vinyl Decal | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FLUX-CAPACITOR-IN-OPERATION-FUNNY-WARNING-STICKER-1-21-GIGAWATTS-VINYL-DECAL-/251667165046?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a98882f76)

T shirts are available too, for experienced operators.

[joel0407]

If you need oil in your fuel you might also need a hiclone, a k&n filter and some fuel magnets too. I mean heresay carries so much more weight on the internet than years of development by car manufacturers. I mean what would they know? :)

Hey don't bring K&N into this.

LOL

[lewy]

My biggest concern would be deposits through the exhaust system.

But that would help with the backpressure needed for these engines:p

[joel0407]

I use it. The oil glazing build up on the bores helps to offset the wear I have from using paper filters before I got a K&N.:D

[Jason789]

Mercedez Benz just did it to fool everyone and give them something to moan about that.

Mercedez Benz........Hmmmmm they are a pretty average F1 maker/repeated world championship team, luxury car maker, 4x4 maker, 6x6 maker, truck maker, bus maker, Unimog etc,etc,etc

But then, this dumkopf car maker(Mercedez Benz) added 2stroke to its diesel for some unknown reason on a rally half way across the world(Paris to Beijing in 2007 with an E Class 320cdi). Why would they do such a thing??

Instead of canning the idea with no basis for your arguments than jokes or 'I reckon' type answers. 'I reckon' that nay sayers should be providing some definitive proof that 2stroke added to diesel doesn't work and that it must be proven to Australian Standards, otherwise, it just sounds to me like a bunch of backyard mechanics giving their opinion against a long term car research/developement and manufacturing industry leader.

But I forgot, a collection of backyard mechanics must know more than and could do all so much better than Mercedez Benz. Geez, 'I reckon' I've been listening to the wrong people.


Cheers,

Jason

[rangieman]

Mercedez Benz just did it to fool everyone and give them something to moan about that.

Mercedez Benz........Hmmmmm they are a pretty average F1 maker/repeated world championship team, luxury car maker, 4x4 maker, 6x6 maker, truck maker, bus maker, Unimog etc,etc,etc

But then, this dumkopf car maker(Mercedez Benz) added 2stroke to its diesel for some unknown reason on a rally half way across the world(Paris to Beijing in 2007 with an E Class 320cdi). Why would they do such a thing??

Instead of canning the idea with no basis for your arguments than jokes or 'I reckon' type answers. 'I reckon' that nay sayers should be providing some definitive proof that 2stroke added to diesel doesn't work and that it must be proven to Australian Standards, otherwise, it just sounds to me like a bunch of backyard mechanics giving their opinion against a long term car research/developement and manufacturing industry leader.

But I forgot, a collection of backyard mechanics must know more than and could do all so much better than Mercedez Benz. Geez, 'I reckon' I've been listening to the wrong people.


Cheers,

Jason

Well this back yarder admits to trying 2- after reading on the hocus pokus on the interwieb a few years ago :eek:
With my seat of the pants Dyno testing i noticed nothing different oh and that 300tdi diesel Rattle was still the same :angel:
Maybe what you say in a lab the difference what ever it is could be noticed but for joe blow average maybe not:angel:
I think at the end of the day if you believe it so be it but with out all the technical proof some will always argue:)

[bsperka]

MB added the 2 stroke oil as the quality of oil in most of the countries enroute was suspect. Didn't want an embarrassing failure due to dodgy fuel. Also didn't want to advertise this. So it for known reasons - Modern injectors can't handle lack of lubrication in fuel.

[joel0407]

quality of oil in most of the countries enroute was suspect.

And you don't think some of ours is suspect?

[mousie]

Which 2 stroke, outboard, m/c or plain air cooled motor mower:D

[bsperka]

Never said it wasn't. Btw: why do we accept that the fuel quality may be suspect. ie as dodgy as provided in third world countries.
Pumps used to have a sight glass to show fuel quality, due to poor quality being provided. This disappeared some 20 years or more ago. Problem hasn't gone away; a whole new industry has sprung up to protect us from dodgy fuel. Responsibility should be with the fuel retailer to provide correct quality fuel, not with each owner to protect against dodgy fuel.

[bsperka]

Let's run a couple of controlled tests to see if it makes any difference. Mineral 2 stroke (assume for air cooled motors?) seems to be the go. Volunteers?

Testing for noise and vibration only or fuel economy as well? To make it a bit scientific consider what needs to be done.
At least two full tanks to confirm results. Controlled fuel (eg Caltex or BP) from the same servo. Need to ensure the same dosage per litre. Do we need to measure the fuel temperature when purchasing to reduce this variable? Run the same route for both tank fills to reduce this variable? Double blind testing required to get rid of any personal bias? Where do we position the dBa meter on the vehicles to reduce this variable? How do we remove ambiant noise variables? What pyros will we use? How do we record results to make a meaningful comparison? Lots of other items to consider - tyre pressures ? Haven't even got to how to measure engine vibration. And don't know what instruments are used to measure it. 😨

In the end it's your car, so if you want to try 2 stroke give it a burl. What's the worst that could happen? Injectors fail? Engine failure? Personally, I'd prefer to not experiment with my engine like this.

[Ancient Mariner]

I have the ideal setup ,2 tanks with a change over valve between the seats ,110 so it has under screen flaps for sound readings EGT and boost gauges with GPS speedo and a suitable test hill.And best of all an Isuzu so it will swallow anything I feed it without complaint:D:angel:. .Just need to get enthused :(

[gusthedog]

.......and the circle is complete.

Can't we all agree to disagree on this topic, instead of going around and around in circles?
Even if it is a placebo, if it makes some sleep better at night what's the problem with that?
Hell if I could some fairy dust I would sprinkle it on my Td5.

I'm simply pointing out that it has to be a placebo because there is no science behind it. I'm a believer in verifiable facts. Anything else is snake oil. But you can believe what you like. I may still choose to poke fun though because I'm a bit of a bastard :)

[Basil135]

x1000


I added 2 stroke to every tank for 9 months straight, and not only could not hear or feel any difference, I could not measure any difference in fuel economy either.

Save yourself the time, effort & money.

The quote of a wise man :angel:

[bsperka]

Hell if I could some fairy dust I would sprinkle it on my Td5.
I bought some fairy dust for a project and have some left over. Not cheap but PM me if you are interested. Its pretty light so postage won't be expensive. A bit hard to store and transport though; you can't see it in sunlight. But when you put it in your fuel tank it makes everything run somewhat smoother, but not as good as 2 stroke.

[steane]

Is there no benefit to having some 2T running through the IP from a lubrication point of view or does modern diesel provide enough lube?

[wayne]

You are unlikely to get a sensible answer to your post. Unfortunately the clowns are out in full force regurgitating the same old worn out lines about Hi clones, ferry dust blah blah zzzzzzz. The sad part is they think it's still funny even though it's been posted on numerous occassions.

[bsperka]

Clowns...pfttt.....I resent bring called a clown - I'm more of a jester. (Look up what they used to do - it was an important role). Using ridicule is one way of testing if an action is appropriate...

[Ancient Mariner]

You are unlikely to get a sensible answer to your post. Unfortunately the clowns are out in full force regurgitating the same old worn out lines about Hi clones, ferry dust blah blah zzzzzzz. The sad part is they think it's still funny even though it's been posted on numerous occassions.
I reckon you need to lighten up .I missed where your very helpful answer contained the correct percentage and till it does your reply was as useful as all us clowns and jesters replies :D

[wayne]

Ok I'm all lightened up now. :D that was already answered by another poster.

[Basil135]

You are unlikely to get a sensible answer to your post. Unfortunately the clowns are out in full force regurgitating the same old worn out lines about Hi clones, ferry dust blah blah zzzzzzz. The sad part is they think it's still funny even though it's been posted on numerous occasions.

There have been plenty of sensible answers, plus real world experiences, offered in this, and numerous other threads on exactly the same subject.

It gets to the point where sometimes, a light-hearted comment is what is needed. That is what this place is about.

If someone has a question, problem, need, whatever, you will find there are plenty of people here willing to help, offer advice, even lend tools, workshop space or time, to help a fellow LR owner. However, when the same question is asked over & over, and peoples experiences differ, then sometimes a little sprinkle of fairy dust is what is needed.

That is just how this place works. And it DOES work.


Ok, getting back on my unicorn, and riding away. Can't wait until my magic carpet is back from the cleaners... :D

[Redback]

Mercedez Benz just did it to fool everyone and give them something to moan about that.

Mercedez Benz........Hmmmmm they are a pretty average F1 maker/repeated world championship team, luxury car maker, 4x4 maker, 6x6 maker, truck maker, bus maker, Unimog etc,etc,etc

But then, this dumkopf car maker(Mercedez Benz) added 2stroke to its diesel for some unknown reason on a rally half way across the world(Paris to Beijing in 2007 with an E Class 320cdi). Why would they do such a thing??

Instead of canning the idea with no basis for your arguments than jokes or 'I reckon' type answers. 'I reckon' that nay sayers should be providing some definitive proof that 2stroke added to diesel doesn't work and that it must be proven to Australian Standards, otherwise, it just sounds to me like a bunch of backyard mechanics giving their opinion against a long term car research/developement and manufacturing industry leader.

But I forgot, a collection of backyard mechanics must know more than and could do all so much better than Mercedez Benz. Geez, 'I reckon' I've been listening to the wrong people.


Cheers,

Jason

Just read the 5 page artical on this trip, not one mention of adding 2T to the cars.

From the artical;

"
Life was decidedly better for Denise, Alex, and me inside the Mercedes. The seat heaters fired up quickly each morning, and the kilometers passed rapidly beneath the Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tires (the caravan had driven through snow in Russia). Our recent stateside drives of the new Bluetec E-class had already confirmed that it is not only the finest diesel sedan Mercedes has ever made, it's the finest diesel-powered automobile ever sold in America. Forget your preconceived notions about diesels: this one is so quiet (or, at least, so well noise-insulated), so smooth, so bursting with torque, and so benign, we literally forgot that we were driving an oil burner. And you might think we would have remembered, since we were surrounded by belching, smoky, stinky diesel cargo trucks much of the time.


To drive the Bluetec is to experience the same privileged ease and comfort that one does in any E-class, except you can travel 600 miles between fill-ups. According to the trip computer, our hard-driven car had been averaging about 26 mpg on a steady diet of Aral low-sulfur diesel trucked in specially from Germany. The local diesel fuel in Russia, Kazakhstan, and China has up to 300 times more sulfur than European regulations allow.
With the aid of exhaust-gas recirculation, two catalysts, and a particulate filter, the Bluetec is the cleanest Mercedes diesel ever. It will be even more so once Mercedes-Benz and the U.S. EPA agree on a system where-by the cars can be equipped with a catalyst that, when primed by an injection of aqueous urea, will convert oxides of nitrogen into nitrogen and water vapor. The sticking point? The EPA fears that owners will fail to replenish the urea fluid every 10,000 miles, rendering the emissions controls ineffective.
Such microcosmic environmental considerations are literally and figuratively half a world away from the so-called coal highway out of Wuhai, where we passed trucks hauling enough coal to power Beijing for a week. People walked alongside the road collecting little chunks of coal that had blown off the trucks. The next 200 miles that unfurled for us in the foothills of the Gobi Desert looked not unlike parts of the American Southwest. We hammered the E320 hard here, jostling for position with trucks carrying coal, livestock, corn, and hay; braking fiercely; and keeping a sharp eye out for long-horned sheep on the roadside. Some of the pavement was rough, but the Benz's suspension absorbed the worst of it without complaint."

Somehow I can't see them adding 2T oil to a Bluetec engine, is there somewhere else it is mentioned??

Baz.

[wayne]

There have been plenty of sensible answers, plus real world experiences, offered in this, and numerous other threads on exactly the same subject.

It gets to the point where sometimes, a light-hearted comment is what is needed. That is what this place is about.

If someone has a question, problem, need, whatever, you will find there are plenty of people here willing to help, offer advice, even lend tools, workshop space or time, to help a fellow LR owner. However, when the same question is asked over & over, and peoples experiences differ, then sometimes a little sprinkle of fairy dust is what is needed.

That is just how this place works. And it DOES work.



Ok, getting back on my unicorn, and riding away. Can't wait until my magic carpet is back from the cleaners... :D
Sprinkle away brother :p By the way what is the ride like on a unicorn. I been thinking of doing the Canning on one

[Basil135]

Oh, they are a great ride.

Unless they see a reindeer, then they stop suddenly, you slide forward, hit that pointy bit on the top of their head, and can then audition for the Vienna Boys Choir. :eek:


Speaking of reindeer, and stopping, I hear that there is a new one in the fleet this year.

His name is Boris, the Brown Nosed Reindeer. He is just as fast as Rudolf, but cannot stop as well. :D

[isuzurover]

For those who are interested in empirical rather than annecdotal evidence...

I just had another search through the literature.
There is LOTS of information on lubricity improvers and additives.

However not a single one on using 2-stroke oil as a lubricity improver. Biodiesel however is effective as a lubricity improver - hence why it can be added to all diesel without labelling.

Some abstracts which may be of interest:


SAE Technical Papers
2008
2008 SAE International Powertrains, Fuels and Lubricants Congress; Shanghai; China; 23 June 2008 through 25 June 2008; Code 90787
Impact of diesel fuel additives on vehicle performance (Conference Paper)

Caprotti, R.a, Takaharu, S.b, Masahiro, D.b

a Infineum UK, Ltd., United Kingdom
b Infineum Japan, Ltd., Japan
View references (9)
Abstract

A variety of additives are used in automotive diesel fuel to meet specification limits and to enhance quality. For example, lubricity additives and cold flow improvers are used to meet specifications whilst diesel detergents further enhance the quality of the fuel. Recently, several premium fuels that use high levels of diesel detergents and, in some cases, cetane improver have been introduced in the market place. The purpose of the work carried out was to assess the potential impact of these additives on vehicle performance. In order to do this, a fuel free of any additive was treated with very high levels of all the diesel fuel additives currently used to meet specification limits and to enhance diesel fuel performance. A common rail vehicle using an advanced common rail system was then driven in a controlled manner for 50.000 km. Emissions and driveability tests took place at 0km to provide baseline data. Further tests were then performed at 15.000km and 50.000km to determine any changes from the baseline data. Moreover, every 5000km the vehicle/engine parameters were assessed via ECU interrogation. Test fuel analyses were carried out every 10.000km, sampling the fuel from the vehicle tank. At the end of the test a full investigation of the fuelling system was undertaken. The results indicated that the use of the diesel fuel additives at high treat rates did not have any impact on the fuel injection equipment (FIE), the vehicle performance or the fuel itself. This would indicate that high levels, and indeed standard treat rates, of the additive technologies tested are harm free in the field. ? 2008 SAE International.




SAE Technical Papers
2012
SAE 2012 World Congress and Exhibition; Detroit, MI; United States; 24 April 2012 through 26 April 2012; Code 92224
Possible mechanism for poor diesel fuel lubricity in the field (Conference Paper)

Cook, S. , Barker, J., Reid, J., Richards, P.

Innospec Limited, Innospec Manufacturing Park, Oil Sites Road, Ellesmere Port, Cheshire CH65 4EY, United Kingdom
View references (31)
Abstract

Traditionally, diesel fuel injection equipment (FIE) has frequently relied on the diesel fuel to lubricate the moving parts. When ultra low sulphur diesel fuel was first introduced into some European markets in the early 1980's it rapidly became apparent that the process of removing the sulphur also removed other components that had bestowed the lubricating properties of the diesel fuel. Diesel fuel pump failures became prevalent. The fuel additive industry responded quickly and diesel fuel lubricity additives were introduced to the market. The fuel, additive and FIE industries expended much time and effort to develop test methods and standards to try and ensure this problem was not repeated. Despite this, there have recently been reports of fuel reaching the end user with lubricating performance below the accepted standards. Recent publications have also suggested that it is not uncommon for sodium hydroxide used in the fuel refining industry to be present in fuel entering the supply chain downstream of the refinery. Due to the chemical nature of some lubricity additives there is clearly the possibility of interaction. This paper briefly reviews the need for diesel fuel lubricity improver additives, previous work on such additives and possible interactions. It then goes on to present new work performed to investigate how the presence of sodium compounds in the fuel may affect the performance of a range of lubricity additives of different chemistries. It shows that the presence of the sodium hydroxide can lead to reactions with and hence the depletion of certain types of lubricity additive. This could inevitably lead to reduced lubricity performance and fuels reaching the customer that do not meet specification. Copyright ? 2012 SAE International.

Note that the first line in the 2nd paper is not quite correct. Most medium-heavy diesels use engine oil to lubricate injector pumps (isuzu 4bd1 for example). However usually only diesel to lubricate injectors and secondary pumps.



9th International Conference on Stability, Handling and Use of Liquid Fuels 2005
Volume 1, 2005, Pages 461-488
9th International Conference on Stability, Handling and Use of Liquid Fuels 2005; Sitges; Spain; 18 September 2005 through 22 September 2005; Code 92047
Potential impact of diesel lubricity additives (DLA) on jet fuel quality (Conference Paper)

Moses, C.A.a, Boval, T.b, Hemighaus, G.c, Wilson III, G.R.a

a Southwest Research Institute, PO Drawer 28510, San Antonio, TX 78228-0510, United States
b Chevron Global Aviation, 1500 Louisiana St., Houston, TX 77002, United States
c Chevron Products Co., 100 Chevron Way, Richmond, CA 94802, United States
View references (1)
Abstract

In January 2005 a lubricity requirement was added to the ASTM D 975 specification for No. 1 and No. 2 diesel fuels in anticipation of the more highly hydro-treated fuels having low lubricity. This requirement will result in the addition of diesel lubricity improvers (DLA) into these fuels. The chemistries of these additives are different from the chemistries of the corrosion inhibitors used to provide lubricity improvement in aviation turbine fuels. Further, the diesel lubricity additives are not approved for use in the aviation turbine fuels. The concern is potential contamination of aviation fuels while being transported in fungible pipeline systems from point of manufacture to point of use. Further is the lack of information concerning the hot fuel system carbon fouling which might occur should the diesel lubricity additives (and their associated ULSD) become co-mingled in the aviation turbine fuels. The current for co-mingling is currently limited to the United States because of its fungible pipeline system. Although fuels are more segregated in other parts of the world, there is the possibility that some non-US distribution systems could be changed depending on the economic benefit and overall fuel specification compatibility. This paper reviews the results of laboratory screening tests with DLAs of three basic chemistries to evaluate their effect on thermal stability, lubricity, water separation, electrical conductivity, and pipeline corrosion. The results show that some of the additive chemistries are more detrimental than others and while some fuels are sensitive, others are not.


I wouldn't be surprised if adding 2-stroke to modern diesels would lead to blocked oxy-cats and DPFs.


EDIT: There are a lot of myths that diesel in AU is poor quality. That is generally not the case unless it has been doctored or contaminated with dirt. Diesel in Australia only comes from a few refineries, and the standard it is required to comply with are equal to the best in the world.

[harro]

I read up on this subject years ago and actually tried it for a round trip to Birdsville and back, about 4000klm IIRC and didn't notice any difference so discontinued it.

But there was this guy on another forum (diesel specialist:angel:) who organised some lubricity tests for diesel additives.
The results are suppose to be legit and include 2 stroke oil.
Also confirms the benefits of Bio Diesel as a lubricity improver.

I think this all came about with the advent of low sulphur diesel.
Assuming that sulphur is the lubricant?

So may be more relevant for CRD technology or even older mechanical pumps but maybe not much use on Unit injection?
Pure speculation as I am certainly no expert or even close.

Link to the thread for anyone interested.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-forums/64-maintenance-fluids/177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/218.jpg

[isuzurover]

I read up on this subject years ago and actually tried it for a round trip to Birdsville and back, about 4000klm IIRC and didn't notice any difference so discontinued it.

But there was this guy on another forum (diesel specialist:angel:) who organised some lubricity tests for diesel additives.
The results are suppose to be legit and include 2 stroke oil.
Also confirms the benefits of Bio Diesel as a lubricity improver.

I think this all came about with the advent of low sulphur diesel.
Assuming that sulphur is the lubricant?

So may be more relevant for CRD technology or even older mechanical pumps but maybe not much use on Unit injection?
Pure speculation as I am certainly no expert or even close.

Link to the thread for anyone interested.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-forums/64-maintenance-fluids/177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/218.jpg

So the best option according to his testing was 2% biodiesel.
The Australian diesel standard allows up to 5% bio:
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)


EDIT - I also have a hard time believing some lubricity additives can decrease lubricity. More likely is the accuracy of the test is +/- 70 microns or so. Which means that the 2-st results are not a significant improvement.

[wayne]

Very interesting post. I can't recall where I read an article and it said the leading cause for premature modern engine failure in Europe was biodiesel.
They were not referring to home brews.

[harro]

So the best option according to his testing was 2% biodiesel.
The Australian diesel standard allows up to 5% bio:
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)


So maybe the best additive is in the supermarket:D

Couple of 100mls of canola should do the trick.........

[isuzurover]

Very interesting post. I can't recall where I read an article and it said the leading cause for premature modern engine failure in Europe was biodiesel.
They were not referring to home brews.

Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read.
However you also shouldn't confuse adding a small amount of BioD as a lubricity improver vs running 100% BioD.

Above 10% Bio you can have problems in modern engines with water carryover through the filters - which is not great for injection systems. There have also been plenty of cases of "unwashed" commercial biodiesel being sold (e.g. in Austria), which will dump out all the glycerine in one go if it comes in contact with water.

[Thingy]

They tried bio diesel at work, it was crap so they stopped using it. The mechanics were glad to see the arse end of it. Parks Vic and Depi are looking at changing from cruisers to mercs. Apparently they will have to add 2 stroke oil for x amount of k's from new. Must be some sort of run in thing.

[wayne]

Is there any chance you can get more info. Or does any know why Merc needs two stroke oil to run in.

[isuzurover]

They tried bio diesel at work, it was crap so they stopped using it. The mechanics were glad to see the arse end of it. Parks Vic and Depi are looking at changing from cruisers to mercs. Apparently they will have to add 2 stroke oil for x amount of k's from new. Must be some sort of run in thing.

For the first part - read my post above yours.

As for the second part - anything official from Mercedes? Or is this more internet rumour that has no basis in fact?

[Thingy]

I'll see what i can find out, could be a few days .

[Thingy]

For the first part - read my post above yours.

As for the second part - anything official from Mercedes? Or is this more internet rumour that has no basis in fact?

The first part was just my experience with bio diesel in a commercial transport application , personal observation based on conversations with the guys from the work shop. The second part you will notice the word " Apparently ". Nothing to do with internet rumour ,just what i was told by a mate that works for Parks.
No need to get indignant about it.

[isuzurover]

The first part was just my experience with bio diesel in a commercial transport application , personal observation based on conversations with the guys from the work shop. The second part you will notice the word " Apparently ". Nothing to do with internet rumour ,just what i was told by a mate that works for Parks.
No need to get indignant about it.

Yes but you posted just after i commented on the distinction between B100 and the small amount of bio that is in most diesel.

As for the 2st in mercs thing, spreading rumours some mate of a mate told you on the internet is hardly helpful.

[Thingy]

Yes but you posted just after i commented on the distinction between B100 and the small amount of bio that is in most diesel.

As for the 2st in mercs thing, spreading rumours some mate of a mate told you on the internet is hardly helpful.

Only if i had presented it as fact which i clearly did not.
No doubt someone is scouring the net for the answer.
Merry Christmas and all the best for the new year.

[wayne]

Merry Christmas to you to mate.

[gusthedog]

You are unlikely to get a sensible answer to your post. Unfortunately the clowns are out in full force regurgitating the same old worn out lines about Hi clones, ferry dust blah blah zzzzzzz. The sad part is they think it's still funny even though it's been posted on numerous occassions.

The other way of looking at it is ask a silly question, get a silly answer :)

There is no merit, empirical evidence or science behind adding 2 stroke oil to diesel. If you want to rely on heresay and non scientific opinion, go for it :BigThumb::BigThumb:

But if you do, people like me that believe in science will continue to poke fun :)

[wayne]

Zzzzzz the conversation has moved on. You are starting to bore me

[rmw72]

I read up on this subject years ago and actually tried it for a round trip to Birdsville and back, about 4000klm IIRC and didn't notice any difference so discontinued it.

But there was this guy on another forum (diesel specialist:angel:) who organised some lubricity tests for diesel additives.
The results are suppose to be legit and include 2 stroke oil.
Also confirms the benefits of Bio Diesel as a lubricity improver.

I think this all came about with the advent of low sulphur diesel.
Assuming that sulphur is the lubricant?

So may be more relevant for CRD technology or even older mechanical pumps but maybe not much use on Unit injection?
Pure speculation as I am certainly no expert or even close.

Link to the thread for anyone interested.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-forums/64-maintenance-fluids/177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/218.jpg


So finally, have been waiting to see when someone would finally mention what is the actual lubricant in diesel fuel! SULPHUR !!!!
And what is diesel fuel called now? - LOW SULPHUR DIESEL FUEL -
Why? because for those that can remember we used to have super petrol then it became unleaded. Why because lead is supposed to be bad for you. But what did the lead content actually do? It was the the upper cylinder head lubricant for the valves. Remember all the aluminium cylinder heads on cars that the started to have valve recession and then required steel inserts fitted.
Now move forward to the into introduction of low sulphur diesel fuel. Same principal. the sulphur is the lubricant within the fuel. This lubricates all the moving parts within the transfer pumps, fuel pumps, and injectors. But sulphur is supposed to be bad for you as well! so the content of sulphur to a minimum so as when fuel mixture is burnt will expel low emissions. But only provides minimum lubrication.
So by adding 2 stroke oil you are providing the lubrication aspect back into the fuel.

A lot of highway truck engines were suffering injector failures early on when low sulphur fuel was introduced due to the fact that that the sulphur content was so low and not providing adequate lubrication.

[isuzurover]

So finally, have been waiting to see when someone would finally mention what is the actual lubricant in diesel fuel! SULPHUR !!!!
...

Sorry, but you are wrong. This is another myth perpetuated by many people. If you go back a page or 2 and read the journal paper abstract I posted it explains the truth: Lubricity of diesel was found to be adversely affected by the methods used to remove sulphur. However sulphur itself is not a lubricant in diesel.

[joel0407]

A lot of highway truck engines were suffering injector failures early on when low sulphur fuel was introduced due to the fact that that the sulphur content was so low and not providing adequate lubrication.

I don't know where you guys get this funny idea that sulphur is a lubricant?

It's the process of removing sulphur from diesel that ruins the lubricity not the actual sulphur itself.

Happy Days.

[wayne]

Sorry, but you are wrong. This is another myth perpetuated by many people. If you go back a page or 2 and read the journal paper abstract I posted it explains the truth: Lubricity of diesel was found to be adversely affected by the methods used to remove sulphur. However sulphur itself is not a lubricant in diesel.

All along I was under the impression that sulphur was the lubricant in diesel. There are a lot of motoring journalist who have got that wrong.

[steane]

All along I was under the impression that sulphur was the lubricant in diesel. There are a lot of motoring journalist who have got that wrong.

Motoring journos get most things wrong;)

[Jason789]

I reckon that this has all been said and done before.

Somehow, I can't see Denise and Alex ever knowing the difference, somehow, I can't see this thread going anywhere that similar threads haven't gone before.

What do you reckon????? :zzz:

Cheers,

Jason

[PsiDOC]

All along I was under the impression that sulphur was the lubricant in diesel. There are a lot of motoring journalist who have got that wrong.

Technically, no sulphur is not a lubricant, however it is absorbed by any alloy parts that contain parts that contain nickel to make an eutectic alloy that can increase lubricity.

With the advent of ULSD in the early millenium the sulphur is now removed to less than 10 ppm and the eutectic method of lubrication became non existant. At this point the refinery then had an obligation to put in a lubricity additve in on the rundown line to tankage, which is still done to this day.

How do I know the above? I work for a Major Oil Refiner in the U.K. as an Instrument / Analyser technician. I work day in day out with the equipment that monitors and controls the sulphur content and the lubricity additive. ;)

I must admit I have never heared of putting in 2 stroke oil with the diesel and it's a bit pointless in countries where the diesel processed to ASTM standards. Perhaps in countries where the diesel is basically distilled camel's urine it may be of a very small benefit.

[wayne]

Would you mind telling us what the additive is.

[PsiDOC]

We know it by it's in house branded name of D27, however the chemical composition from the MSDS is:

LIGHT AROMATIC SOLVENT NAPHTHA (PETROLEUM) 30.0%
TRIMETHYLBENZENE < 30.0 %
BUTOXYETHANOL 15.0 - 30.0 %
XYLENE < 5.0 %
TRIMETHYLBENZENE < 2.0 %
ETHYLBENZENE < 0.5 % 100

[Neck Scar]

We know it by it's in house branded name of D27, however the chemical composition from the MSDS is:

LIGHT AROMATIC SOLVENT NAPHTHA (PETROLEUM) 30.0%
TRIMETHYLBENZENE < 30.0 %
BUTOXYETHANOL 15.0 - 30.0 %
XYLENE < 5.0 %
TRIMETHYLBENZENE < 2.0 %
ETHYLBENZENE < 0.5 % 100

For the most part, this has been an interesting read. So it would appear from the above post that the additive to diesel fuel for lubrication is mostly Petrol and lighter volatiles? Interesting.
I too, have been guilty of running a work ute on nearly 50/50 petrol/diesel for a while, with no ill effects. I believe they go BANG if it's 100% wrong in the flammables favour, but not done that experiment.
On a related issue, ever since suffering water in the carby due to condensation in the fuel tank, and no maintenance or pre-checks on my part 35 years ago, I was stranded at sea in a 15' open boat. Luckily the wind blew me mostly back on shore, but it ruined my day, and taught me a lesson.
Since then, every petrol motor I've owned, from chainsaws to LS1 V8's have been given a regular dose, albeit small, of metho mixed with two stroke oil. The former to bond with the water that invariably finds it's way into the tank, and drag it through the fuel cycle rather than just block up the works. The latter to lubricate the top end of the motor. I've not had a fuel related, or burnt valve, engine problem since. Don't know about diesel, re water in the mix, as I've relied on separators with the CAV type filter, but am open to ideas. I usually add a commercial fuel conditioner to my diesel, to kill off the bacteria, if nothing else.
As someone has said, if it makes you feel good, or your convinced that your engine likes it; who's to argue? My petrol motors have always thanked me for a little bit of a brew every other tankful.

[DiscoDB]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/89016-adding-2-stoke-oil-your-diesel.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/22131-acetone-diesel-improved-combustion.html