Bad Press by the truckload

[Billandy1]

Just reading issue #7 of Unsealed 4X4 magazine. Somebody had electrical problems with their MY06 D3. I don't know if anyone knows the people, but it smacked of slack preparation to me, and if I was heading out to Dalhousie Springs, it wouln't be with an old battery; but it certainly has given the LR haters a motza to munch on. They weren't too complimentary to the LR Dealer in the Alice either.

[redrovertdi]

plus on the last photo caption they say they sold it and bought a toyota.
I had a bike battery drop a cell near Anakie and fry the electronic ignition on my BMW, i was tempted to change the battery befor the trip but risked it and learnt my lesson-still have the bike 8 years later

[BMKal]

Where did you get hold of issue #7.

I've only seen up to issue #6 so far and their web site only gives links to issue #6.

[redrovertdi]

Where did you get hold of issue #7.

I've only seen up to issue #6 so far and their web site only gives links to issue #6.



emailed out this afternoon

[incisor]

UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 007 (http://unsealed4x4.com.au/issue007/#1)

[Billandy1]

plus on the last photo caption they say they sold it and bought a toyota.
I had a bike battery drop a cell near Anakie and fry the electronic ignition on my BMW, i was tempted to change the battery befor the trip but risked it and learnt my lesson-still have the bike 8 years later

Yeah mate, true. Don't get me wrong guys, I'm a Disco fan, looking to buy Feb or March 15. I mean, you read all the probs on Toyota and Nissan sites, saw a pic of the same tilt tray with a trailer hitched with a Nissan and a Cruiser on board. Nothin said... but as soon as he picks up a Disco it gets four pages. Preparation and more preparation; it doesn't matter what you drive

[~Rich~]

UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 007 (http://unsealed4x4.com.au/issue007/#1)

Made my comment at the end of the story.

[scarry]

plus on the last photo caption they say they sold it and bought a toyota.
I had a bike battery drop a cell near Anakie and fry the electronic ignition on my BMW, i was tempted to change the battery befor the trip but risked it and learnt my lesson-still have the bike 8 years later

After the engine had a catastrophic failure,whatever that is.

We will probably never know exactly why the electrical problem occurred,may have been a mistake when trying to jump start the vehicle.
So in actual fact no fault of the vehicle,human error.

[PAT303]

If he went into the outback in a Toyota with a dud battery he would get stranded,if he jumped started a Toyota straight to the battery instead of doing it off the terminals fitted for jump starting as shown in the owners manual he would fry the computer and get stranded,unfortunately this being the internet we can't let the truth get in the way of a Land Rover failure story caused by it's dumb arse owners stupidity. Pat

[catch-22]

The Defender on the front cover balances the negative article..

[catch-22]

Also have a buyer beware article showing a massive picture of a Toyota..and a Jeep

[catch-22]

Just sped-read through a number of articles - this is a VERY pro-Toyota publication (and I'm sure you already knew that - I'm just catching up)..

[Billandy1]

UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 007 (http://unsealed4x4.com.au/issue007/#1)

Made my comment at the end of the story.
Well said Richard.

[spudboy]

...if he jumped started a Toyota straight to the battery instead of doing it off the terminals fitted for jump starting as shown in the owners manual he would fry the computer and get stranded... Pat

Is there some sort of 'filter' between these jump start terminals and the main battery?

I've only ever jump started using cables straight to the battery terminals....

Sounds like I'm behind the times :(

[PAT303]

You never jump start straight to the battery,it doesn't matter if it's a 2a or D4,in the L322 if you jump start straight to the battery not only could you fry the electrics but you could also set off the pyrotechnic guillotine that will leave you really stuck,or blow the main body ecu fuses which means the codes have to be sent over from the UK and be downloaded.If you read the manual it's written down in easy to follow steps and under the bonnet there is a bright red positive terminal and a black negative terminal in plain sight NEXT to the battery,Land Rover made it idiot proof,it really is idiot proof but obviously not idiot proof enough for Davo or Simo to work it out. Pat

[Billandy1]

Just sped-read through a number of articles - this is a VERY pro-Toyota publication (and I'm sure you already knew that - I'm just catching up)..
Toyota and don't forget Nissan, Pat Callinan's sponsor.

[Eevo]

cant say ive ever seen a problem jump starting a car using the battery terminals.

all your doing is connecting battery's in parallel.

[PAT303]

Well it must be safe then. Pat

[AnD3rew]

I fried my Llams unit when my alternator fried and took out the battery with it. I assume it happened when I jump started the car from my second battery, I had the cables on the positive terminal of the starter battery and the on a body earth point. It's possible the Llams actually saved the suspension ECU as it sits in the line before it.

Don't know why this happened, don't know what I did wrong or how I should do it better next time but interested to hear your thoughts in how to do it better.

[discomatt69]

Are you all serious??? Just when I was starting to think a D3 might be the way to go for a tourer I now find out they can't even be jump started without causing massive dramas WTF

[winaje]

Are you all serious??? Just when I was starting to think a D3 might be the way to go for a tourer I now find out they can't even be jump started without causing massive dramas WTF

They can easily be jump started without any dramas...!

+ve to battery, -ve to solid earth that is not battery.

There, no dramas...

[Barefoot Dave]

Agree with the concensus.

Nice editors column on p150 about becomoing a better driver rather than fitting more gear. Well written.

[DiscoMick]

Sounds like operator error to me, but blaming the vehicle instead of admitting you made a mistake is kinder to the ego.

Sent from my GT-I8730T using AULRO mobile app

[Graeme]

I fried my Llams unit when my alternator fried and took out the battery with it. I assume it happened when I jump started the car from my second battery, I had the cables on the positive terminal of the starter battery and the on a body earth point. It's possible the Llams actually saved the suspension ECU as it sits in the line before it.

Don't know why this happened, don't know what I did wrong or how I should do it better next time but interested to hear your thoughts in how to do it better.I understood that Llams was working until the tech disconnected the Llams module so I suspect a 5V pin inside the module was shorted to ground, destroying the 5V regulator. Also, Llams only intercepts the height sensor signals rather than the 12V power supply to the suspension ecu so can't protect the suspension ecu from power spikes.

[PAT303]

Are you all serious??? Just when I was starting to think a D3 might be the way to go for a tourer I now find out they can't even be jump started without causing massive dramas WTF

Yeh mate,major drama's,better sell it now and buy a ''Not another Recall''. Pat

[PAT303]

They can easily be jump started without any dramas...!

+ve to battery, -ve to solid earth that is not battery.

There, no dramas...
There must be a drama with it,people struggle with it even thou LR used simple instructions,with pictures :eek:. Pat

[scarry]

They can easily be jump started without any dramas...!

+ve to battery, -ve to solid earth that is not battery.

There, no dramas...

Yep if you read the vehicle handbook,its all there,if you don't,well see how you go....

I jump started an early D3 from my D2a on the east side of moreton island a few years back now,no issues at all.

[spudboy]

You never jump start straight to the battery,it doesn't matter if it's a 2a or D4,in the L322 if you jump start straight to the battery not only could you fry the electrics but you could also set off the pyrotechnic guillotine that will leave you really stuck,or blow the main body ecu fuses which means the codes have to be sent over from the UK and be downloaded.If you read the manual it's written down in easy to follow steps and under the bonnet there is a bright red positive terminal and a black negative terminal in plain sight NEXT to the battery,Land Rover made it idiot proof,it really is idiot proof but obviously not idiot proof enough for Davo or Simo to work it out. Pat

So what's the right way to do it? Like for example, my Disco I 300TDi?

[LandyAndy]

You never jump start straight to the battery,it doesn't matter if it's a 2a or D4,in the L322 if you jump start straight to the battery not only could you fry the electrics but you could also set off the pyrotechnic guillotine that will leave you really stuck,or blow the main body ecu fuses which means the codes have to be sent over from the UK and be downloaded.If you read the manual it's written down in easy to follow steps and under the bonnet there is a bright red positive terminal and a black negative terminal in plain sight NEXT to the battery,Land Rover made it idiot proof,it really is idiot proof but obviously not idiot proof enough for Davo or Simo to work it out. Pat

Pat.
There arent any jump start terminals on my D4 next to the battery,nor where there any on my D2.
Just installed a dual battery system on the D4,as I did on the D2.Would have seen them if they were there.
There is a direct posative feed to the fuse blocks,I wouldnt jump from those.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Pat,just read the owners handbook.
Pos lead to pos terminal of battery.Neg terminal on any suitable earth point,min 500mm away from the battery.
Funny thing is there is no suitable earth point for jumper leads under the bonnet.I think I would be looking at hooking the earth clamp on a suitable part of the chassis.
Andrew

[Ferret]

Funny thing is there is no suitable earth point for jumper leads under the bonnet.I think I would be looking at hooking the earth clamp on a suitable part of the chassis.
Andrew

There is an earth point stud just in front of the starter battery box on the D4. Why is this not a suitable place to attach the jumper cable clamp?

[spudboy]

Well, I answered my own question with a search:


300Tdi Discovery

To Jump Start - Negative Ground Battery WARNING: To avoid any possibility ofinjury use particular care when connecting a booster battery to a discharged battery.


1. Position vehicles so that jump leads will reach, ensuring that vehicles DO NOT TOUCH, alternatively a fully charged slave battery may be positioned on floor adjacent to vehicle.

2. Ensuring that ignition and all electrical accessories are switched off, that parking brake is applied and neutral is selected on a manual gearbox, with an automatic gearbox select neutral (N) or park (P) and then connect the
jump leads as follows;

A. Connect one end of first jumper cable to positive (+) terminal of booster battery.

B. Connect other end of first jumper cable to positive (+) terminal of discharged battery.

C. Connect one end of second jumper cable to negative terminal of booster battery

D. Connect other end of second jumper cable to a good earth point on the engine, NOT TO NEGATIVE TERMINAL OF DISCHARGED BATTERY.
Keep jumper lead away from moving parts, pulleys, drive belts and fan blade assembly.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/22.jpg

[LandyAndy]

There is an earth point stud just in front of the starter battery box on the D4. Why is this not a suitable place to attach the jumper cable clamp?

Because I just fitted my Traxide gear,spotlight relay and cuircut breakers there on a bracket there.;)
;);););)
The earth points arnt very big,would be difficult to get a decent earthing there with jumper leads.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/21.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/002_zpsf20622b4.jpg.html)
Andrew

[AndyG]

I accept the negative connection point has to be off the battery, but why is it so? To dampen any surge?

And do the jump leads with protection built in make a difference?

[Eevo]

I accept the negative connection point has to be off the battery, but why is it so? To dampen any surge?

And do the jump leads with protection built in make a difference?


how would it make any difference, a negative connection point should still lead back to the negative on the battery.

[LandyAndy]

I accept the negative connection point has to be off the battery, but why is it so? To dampen any surge?

And do the jump leads with protection built in make a difference?

I have witnessed 2 battery explosions at work,in both cases the persons connecting the jumper leads were lucky they had sunglasses on and didnt get acid in their eyes.
A flat battery usulay has lost electrolyte and hydrogen gas takes it place,easy to spark a lead and ignite it.

Then there is the surge wich can harm electronics.

Also saw a workmate somehow get his wedding ring between the jumper leads and battery post on a 24V truck.Ring disolved and he has a permanent tatoo these days;)
;);););)

On earthmoving gear we try and jump direct to the starter where safe to do so.Much less of a battery explosion risk,and it takes a lot less current to turn the motor over if a big battery is dead.However you MUST make sure the operator is in the chair as this can prevent start in gear mechanisms on transmissions.NEVER SHORT THE SOLENOID TO BATTERY +,the machine can start in gear and drive off!!!!
The new gear now all is ordered with plug in CAT style jump start points for everyones safety after a few near misses.
Andrew

[NomadicD3]

I'm aware of the correct procedure here for jump starting the D3's however, with the help of to much alcohol and a lack of sleep, on 2 occasions I've had brain fart moments and Jump started directly to the battery and have had no problems. Both pre traxide battery install. It doesn't always end in tears...

[jon3950]

Andy, its a bit hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like your earth lead from the battery is different to mine (MY13). My BMS module on the negative terminal has a short copper busbar coming out of it which the earth lead is then attached to. It looks like it is there to attach a charger to, but I haven't been game to try it. Does yours have this?

I can take a photo in the morning if that doesn't make sense.

Cheers,
Jon

[LandyAndy]

There is a spare lug on mine that looks like its there to accept another cable,thats where I had the earth clamp on the charger.On a closer inspection,it does look like the BMS is connected to this lug.
Andrew

[d2dave]

how would it make any difference, a negative connection point should still lead back to the negative on the battery.

It doesn't. It is purely to avoid a spark near the battery in case of explosive gasses.

I have jumped many cars direct to battery, where the book says to put the lead on an earth and not the battery.

If you have a late model like a D4 and are paranoid about it, you can purchase a set of leads that have spike protection in them.

[AndyG]

Ok, so it's primarily gas involved, and I imagine aDefender could be worse than most. I assumed (!) it was spike related.

Now to buy a quality set, and yes I know you can make your own out of heavy cable.

Matson look like a good brand after a look around?

[lt8x7]

It can be jump started.

Just read the owners manual and follow the clear instructions !!!

This is no different from most other modern vehicles which now have many ECUs which can be damaged by electrical spikes.

[Graeme]

There's more to safely starting a modern electronic vehicle from a donor vehicle than just using a cable connection procedure that minimizes the risk of a battery explosion, beginning with the donor vehicle's engine should not be running when the leads are connected. Ideally the donor battery and the jumper leads including clamps can provide enough current without the donor vehicle's engine running. If not possible then steps must be taken to reduce as far as possible the current flow at the time the first (last-fitted) earth clamp is removed, including switching off the donor vehicle's engine and the recipient vehicle engine only idling, with all accessories switched off on both vehicles.

[discomatt69]

There must be a drama with it,people struggle with it even thou LR used simple instructions,with pictures :eek:. Pat

I haven't got 1 to sell YET, still got the D1 and D2 though, I was just asking the question as it seemed not as simple as 1 might think....
Another helpful and insightful post from Pat, as always .....

[BMKal]

This message has been deleted by TerryO. Reason: Not required

Well you will go and make ridiculous statements without any factual basis. ;)


Are you all serious??? Just when I was starting to think a D3 might be the way to go for a tourer I now find out they can't even be jump started without causing massive dramas WTF

The problems being described with jump starting on here are common in at least some way or other to ALL vehicles out there.

For example - sparking across the terminals : I used to own a Ford F100 with a Chev V8 diesel in it. About as uncomplicated as you could get, with no electronics at all in it. One day I was hooking it up to jump start it - had a brain fart and hooked up directly to the battery terminals, first the positive, and then the negative. As soon as I hooked up the negative - the battery exploded in my face - I was leaning right over the top of it at the time. It wasn't a small battery either, from memory, N70Z or similar.

Fortunately I was wearing sunglasses and got nothing in my eyes. Also fortunately, the wife was nearby with a bucket of water as she was watering some plants in the garden - the contents of the bucket got doused over my head straight away.

As to incorrect procedures when connecting up to jump start a battery causing problems to the electronics in modern vehicles - this is nothing new and is by no means exclusive to any model of Land Rover. I've seen a Prado go home on a tilt tray for exactly these reasons.

Probably the best way to explain the basic points of how to do it correctly is Graeme's post above.

[DiscoMick]

Feel sorry for the fellow LR lw e

Feel sorry for fellow LR owner's troubles but bottom line is they took an old starting battery out in the desert which is a bad idea in any vehicle including Toyotas. I remember being at Dalhousie Springs and being very happy to have a spare battery in case my new one failed.

Sent from my GT-I8730T using AULRO mobile app

[discomatt69]

I fried my Llams unit when my alternator fried and took out the battery with it. I assume it happened when I jump started the car from my second battery, I had the cables on the positive terminal of the starter battery and the on a body earth point. It's possible the Llams actually saved the suspension ECU as it sits in the line before it.

Don't know why this happened, don't know what I did wrong or how I should do it better next time but interested to hear your thoughts in how to do it better.

This was the post that got me concerned, not the OP re the disco in the outback, although that is also a concern...
don't think my post was that outrageous?

[AndyG]

I can only surmise that all machinery with electronics, need some form of zap/surge protection, like https://www.blackwoods.com.au/part/03725132/jumper-leads-antizap-12-24v-ma1512az. , maybe it was not used. But I will be buying a quality product like Matson, not exactly sure why, but it seems to be good insurance.

I also like to install surge protection after the change over switch between a genset and public power.