Low Battery,start engine.

[LandyAndy]

Just went to do some more work on the D4 wiring.
Shifted vehicle,shut it down.Get "Low Voltage,Start Engine" message.
Both batteries read 12.87V,with engine running 14.4V.
I had the CTek on all nite as the batteries copped a hammering from the engel for 3 days in the city(no low voltage warning,fridge ran constantly) It had charged to "float" level.
Only thing I can think is I had the earth of the CTek on the spare terminal of the crank battery,perhaps it should have been on the body or the voltage monitor circuit.
How do I reset,as batteries/charge seem good.
Andrew

[Tombie]

Yup.. You made a boo boo..

Earth Always to Body earth points...

Anything you thought or learned in the past, confirm before doing on these modern vehicles..

[LandyAndy]

So is there a re-set or will it fix itself with a drive????
Andrew

[Plane Fixer]

You will need an IID tool or something similar.

[jon3950]

So can anyone tell me what voltage level (or other event) triggers this warning? When I got them the Traxide still had the second battery connected so it can't be too low.

I got the warning a few times when we were away last week and its a bit unnerving in the middle of nowhere, even when you know its not a problem.

Cheers,
Jon

[101RRS]

Sorry - what is this reset for - not familiar with a D4.

Certainly I have no issues charging the battery with a smart charger direct to the battery terminals as long as you do not turn the ignition on but better practice is to earth at the earth stud.

Garry

[jon3950]

Sorry - what is this reset for - not familiar with a D4.

Certainly I have no issues charging the battery with a smart charger direct to the battery terminals as long as you do not turn the ignition on but better practice is to earth at the earth stud.

Garry

The Battery Management System.

[101RRS]

The Battery Management System.

Must be a D4 thing.

[LandyAndy]

I read on a UK site that leaving the smart key inside the vehicle overnite will also trigger the fault,key was inside the car all nite.
Andrew

[Tombie]

Andy, give Tim a quick call.
I had a chat about the latest D4s yesterday with him.
Too much to type - worth the call.

[JamesH]

I read on a UK site that leaving the smart key inside the vehicle overnite will also trigger the fault,key was inside the car all nite.
Andrew


Yep, that's true. Mate had all sorts of troubles with his Rangie. It went back to dealer a few times on the back of a truck. No solution found until they asked him if he left keys in the car. Yes, he did when he was at the farm... Realised it never occurred in the city. Stopped leaving keys and issue went away

Something to remember when camping!

[drivesafe]

So is there a re-set or will it fix itself with a drive????
Andrew

Hi Andrew and yours is a growing problem.

This is only in "LATE MODEL" D4s. The erroneous messages do not occur in D3s or early model D4s.

These erroneous messages are not caused by having one of my dual battery systems in stalled.

Whether you have one of my dual battery systems installed or not, the erroneous messages are caused by charging your cranking battery with a 240vac battery charger.

This problem seems to be a hit and miss occurrence, where it happens in some new D4s while others have no problems at all.

Doing a hard reset some times fixes the problem there and then but a few days later, for no apparent reason, the erroneous messages occur again.

There is also another problem occurring where for no apparent reason, the alternator voltage never gets over 12.2v and again, while a number of MECHANICS at a couple of dealerships have tried to blame my dual battery systems.

In every case it was proven that the problem had nothing to do with my systems and the fix was a simple software update.

This applies to both above situations, the erroneous messages and the low alternator voltages.

Andrew, if the erroneous messages keep occurring, then you will need to go to your dealership, and if they try to blame the dual battery system, demand to have the software updated, because there have been a number of situations where customers, after being WRONGLY told my DBS was causing the problems, the customer has disconnected my DBS and operated their D4 for a month or so and still had repeated episodes of low voltages and/or erroneous messages.

Once the dealership was informed that the D4 had not had the DBS connected since the customers last visit to the dealers, the dealer has carried out the software update and the problem has not occurred again.

[jon3950]

Thanks Tim, your input is always appreciated.

I can tell you at least one dealer doesn't have a problem with your system. I have already had a battery replaced under warranty on my MY13 after getting many of these messages. Although I pointed it out to them, the Traxide system was never mentioned as a possible cause.

After getting a couple of these messages while camping last week, I found my new battery was only charging to about 12.5V (IIDtool measures around 14.2V when running so assume charging system is OK). I have just given it decent charge back to float level (Ctek mxs5).

Not sure if my messages are erroneous or not as an interior light may have been left on. If you are suggesting charging with a 240VAC charger is causing the problem, have you come across a better solution to restoring the battery to full charge?

Cheers,
Jon

[LandyAndy]

Fixed!!!!
Drove it out of the shed,switched it off.Issue still showing.Took it for a short drive with as much electricity on as possible,ie AC full,engel on freeze,rear demister on,high-beam on.
Got home,switched everything off,then shut the car off.Normality returned,no warning :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:.
Next time I top up the batteries I will hook up to the aux battery,just in case it upsets the BMS charging the main battery directly.
Andrew

[drivesafe]

Hi Jon and this is the weird part about these two problems. They are not common to all new D4s, just some of them.

Most owners of new D4s have no issues when charging with a battery charger and in the UK, it is now recommended that all new D4 owners invest is a battery charger, but thats another story.

[LandyAndy]

Jon,did you charge the main battery directly as I did???
Andrew

[Jimlr]

Tim - and If a ctek charger is hooked up via the White towing socket, can this upset the BMS on late model cars?

[LandyAndy]

Jim,if you look at the neg terminal,it appears that the BMS may not be connected to the "spare" terminal despite being fixed to it.If I hooked onto the main earth connection,which isnt that easy as its under the firewall perhaps I wouldnt have caused the problem.
Next time I will hook up to the aux battery,it will ensure the earth return goes thru the BMS.
I believe charging thru that white plug should be OK as its wired with the BMS.
UNLESS these late D4s dont like invading electrons at all:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
Andrew

[jon3950]

Thanks Tim. Is this recommendation in the UK a JLR thing or a Disco4.com thing?


Jon,did you charge the main battery directly as I did???
Andrew

No, positive to terminal, negative to earth stud in front of battery compartment. Have since installed a Ctek plug in same location to make it easier as I expect to be doing this on a regular basis. I'm inclined to think my warnings are legitimate though, so its probably time to look into how I manage my batteries - and to start asking questions to people in low places.

IIRC, there is a way to turn off the BMS using an IIDtool (part of the ccf?). Would this help?

Cheers,
Jon

[drivesafe]

If a ctek charger is hooked up via the White towing socket, can this upset the BMS on late model cars?

Hi Andrew and Jim and a quick answer to your question and NO using the 12S ( white ) plug unfortunately does not resolve the problem.


I believe charging thru that white plug should be OK as its wired with the BMS.
UNLESS these late D4s dont like invading electrons at all:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
Andrew

This is a very crude explanation, based of customer feedback, info off a number of threads and my own observations.

First off, up until the latest D4s, like many other vehicle makes, Land Rover monitored the state of charge ( SoC ) of the cranking battery by testing it just after you started the motor.

In the newer D4s, they do similar but they also have a chronological data map of the battery's SoC.

This in itself is a great idea but, typical of Land Rovers electronics, it SMARTs are not so smart.

And this is the crude part of the explanation.

From what I can gather, the BMS monitors the battery's SoC and based on the immediate test and history based info, when you charge the battery with a battery charger, the BMS test the battery and goes what the!!!, the last time I tested the battery it was near flat, and now it should be taking a full charge but it isn't so it must be really low and possibly stuffed.

The reality is that the battery is not taking any charge because it's fully charge, not stuffed but the BMS can tell the difference.

[LandyAndy]

Tim.
Thanks for that.
So charging the aux battery wont help either I guess.
At least I discovered that a quick drive with high electrical load gets rid of the fault warning.
Is there an in cab battery monitor you reccomend Tim???,I spose its just as easy to check with the trusty olde multi meter thats lived in 3 Series Landies and the D2 over 25 years;);););););)
Andrew

[jon3950]

I spose its just as easy to check with the trusty olde multi meter thats lived in 3 Series Landies and the D2 over 25 years;);););););)
Andrew

Hard to beat isn't it?

While I was away without a multimeter, I used my IIDtool to monitor voltage as it gives live values. A handy option as it always lives in the glovebox.

Cheers,
Jon

[Pedro_The_Swift]

If you're still there Tim,,
Is the "buy a charger" thing before or after the software update ??

[drivesafe]

Hi Pedro, the recommendation to buy a battery charger when you buy a new Landie is because new Landies are having problems maintaining the cranking battery in a reasonable charge state.

While not directly related to the other problems, because so many people are having to use battery chargers on the new Landies, the other problems are showing up.

[Muskie]

this is not a Sales advert.

hi Guys, i work for DHL and export about a Thousand or so 'Megapulse' units to Volvo in Sweden, and Mercedes Benz in Germany as an OEM Product. I puchased about 6 of these units for $100.00 each and i have never ever had an issue with a Battery. i have two on the Disco, one on the Main Battery, and one on the AGM in the rear, as well as one on the ride on, caravan, wife's car and the quad. The expected life span of the batteries have now been increased to 15 years plus !

they just dont allow the White harden Sulfer destroy the battery slowly over time

The Megapulse unit Features:

* Green Technology

* RoHS Lead-Free Construction

* 2000Ah Conditioning Capacity

* Auto Sensing & Adjusting To Any Voltage System From 6Volt to 48Volt DC

* Can Be Installed In Series So Banks of Any Voltage & Capacity Can Be Serviced

* New 5 LED Function Display

* Push Button Three Mode Activation

* Made here In Brendale, Queensland, Australia

another Great idea out there to save $$$ on replacing Batteries !!

:angel:

[Eevo]

sure looks like an ad

[drivesafe]

Hi Muskie and about 10 years ago, the CSIRO carried out extensive research and testing of this style of battery conditioning and found that it did benefit batteries, BUT, only where the batteries were not in use for 3 months or more.

They found little advantage what so ever for normal day to day use batteries or batteries not used for short periods of time.

So for vehicle use, not that beneficial if at all.

Now this is an advert.

Based on over 25 years of use and while it was never originally a design requirement ( just a fluke of the way they operate ), my isolators have proven beyond any doubt, that they do help to both keep the cranking battery in a higher state of charger and extend the operating life span of all the batteries in one of my systems.

[Muskie]

Awesome, Great to know, Thanks !!

[jon3950]

While I was away without a multimeter, I used my IIDtool to monitor voltage as it gives live values. A handy option as it always lives in the glovebox.

Just to follow up on this, I've been monitoring my voltage over the last few days and have found an inconsistency between the voltage measured by the IIDtool and the voltages across the battery terminals. I've had a few days in the bush being concerned about why my voltage was reading only 11.7V and the Traxide wasn't isolating the second battery from the cranking battery - I didn't have a multimeter with me to read voltages across the battery terminals.

It seems the IIDtool is reading the main supply voltage value, which can also be found in the "PCM-engine" menu. I don't know where this is measured. Since getting home I have been able to measure differences between this value and across the battery terminals, prior to starting the engine, of up to about 0.3V, with the battery voltage always being higher. However when I was away I also had readings of 12.0V which immediately dropped to 11.7V when the fridge kicked in, with no low battery warning and the Traxide still not isolating. The voltages always appear to equalise once the engine is running.

Also since putting the batteries on a charger overnight, the low battery warning seems to have gone away. Just shows there's no substitute for a multimeter.

Cheers,
Jon

[drivesafe]

Hi Jon and if you get a chance to do some more testing, try starting your motor and let it idle for a few minutes.

Then, with EVERYTHING turned off, including your air conditioning and entertainment gear, measure the voltage at your cranking battery and see what the IIDtool shows.

Next, turn your demisters on and do the same measurements.

Demisters draw amongst the highest currents in new vehicles, and they will introduce a voltage drop, if it is going to effect readings.

[jon3950]

Thanks Tim,

With everything turned off, the IIDtool measures the the same voltage as at the battery. Don't know why I didn't think of that before. Interestingly the voltage at the transmission control module appears to remain the same as at the battery with everything on.

It has never occured to me to turn off the screen before shutting down as I didn't realise it stayed off. I will do this in future when camping so that it doesn't turn on every time a door is opened - probably my biggest annoyance with the D4. I feel a lot more confident about the battery management now than I did a week ago - and of course it re-inforces my confidence in the Traxide system.

Cheers,
Jon

[JamesH]

Thanks Tim,
It has never occured to me to turn off the screen before shutting down as I didn't realise it stayed off. I will do this in future when camping so that it doesn't turn on every time a door is opened - probably my biggest annoyance with the D4. I feel a lot more confident about the battery management now than I did a week ago - and of course it re-inforces my confidence in the Traxide system.

Cheers,
Jon

That's a good idea when camping. I didn't know that either.