Seeking Swivel Help - 1954 86"

[Yorkshire_Jon]

All,
Im looking for some help with my swivels:D

The complete assembly on the passenger side - represents what the drivers side looked like before I stripped it!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/793.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pQRpdr)Swivels (https://flic.kr/p/pQRpdr) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

This is a picture of the steering arm (was located on top of swivel housing) and bottom pin once de-greased:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/794.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pQCtth)Swivels (https://flic.kr/p/pQCtth) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

And this is the swivel, oriented the same as removed from the axle - Railko bush visible at top:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/795.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qMygN9)Swivels (https://flic.kr/p/qMygN9) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr



Im confused because the S1 parts catalogue shows the steering arms on the top of the swivel assembly (as mine are), but mine seem to have been converted to the Railko bushes (I didn't find the original bearing and spring arrangement on the top arm) and I understood to do this required the steering arms changing such that the bolted to the bottom of the swivel housing. I found this "how to" image which also suggests the same:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/796.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qKkFZs)Swivels (https://flic.kr/p/qKkFZs) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

My question is what have I got? Was it ever possible to retain the original Steering arms and bottom pin and fit a Railko bush & thrust washer? This link would suggest so:
http://www.roverparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/23951 - Indeed, is this what I need?


At the end of all this Id like to be able to buy new bearings, pins, shims, thrust washers etc but don't know what I need!

The last image above shows the following part numbers:
- Railko bush -- 539742
- Railko Thrust Washer -- FRC2906
- Bottom Roller Bearing -- 217268

... but Im not sureif this is correct for my setup because the steering arm pin (that fits into the Railko bush) is a larger diameter than the bottom pin (Are the pins on the later S2 steering arms a smaller diameter than the S1's?)

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Jon

[wrinklearthur]

That is a after market Railko conversion for the earlier 1954 to 1958 swivel pin housings.

IMHO, a much better arrangement than the spring loaded, steel cone in the brass bush that the series ones were built with.
.

[Timj]

The top pin doesn't look to be in great condition so the full kit may be what you need. You will need a press to get the pin out and may need to remove a roll pin from the side first if it was put in when originally converted. Bottom pin may be ok from the look of it and it is not actually a bearing surface anyway as there is a race for the bearing.

[wrinklearthur]

Ref; 532268 - Swivel Pin Conversion Kit Spring Type to Railko Bush Type 1948 - 65 (http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/land-rover-parts/532268-swivel-pin-conversion-kit-spring-type-to-railko-bushtype-1948-65.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/781.jpg

[Bundalene]

Here is another thread which covers some of the above. I am currently in a dilemma in which way to go as my swivel housing spline connection is worn. To go original, or top Railko or bottom Railko?


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-ii-iia/138819-early-type-swivel-convert-railko.html



Erich

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Thanks for all the replies, a great help.

I could not find a conversion kit locally so I ended up buying the bits separately.


I set about reassembling my swivel assembly yesterday and quickly ran into a bit of a problem.

I got the swivel bolted back onto the axle after pressing in the new Railko bush and Timken roller bearing race.

My first thought was that the steering arm pin was a very close and tight fit with the Railko bush and needed more than the recommended 3.5kg of force for the whole assembly to turn just the arm alone (I had soaked the Railko in oil for a short while before trial fitting). I wiggled the steering arm around for a while and it free'd off a little.

Then (as per the book) I bolted the bottom pin into the housing (no shims), dropped the Thrust washer into the Railko bush and offered the whole assembly upto the swivel and put the top steering arm back into the Railko bush.

When the steering arm was tapped home (i.e. it wouldn't go down any further) I was amazed to see a gap of 4.75mm between top of housing and underside of steering arm.

This means (unless Ive done something wrong) that I need 4.75mm of shims!!!


At this point its hard to see what I may have done wrong. The bottom roller bearing race is fully home and square in the swivel, as too is the Railko bush.

I have not replaced the steering arm pin as that was in pretty good condition.

With the modern Railko bushes, is the thrust washer needed? The new ones supplied (one for each side) are approximately 2mm thick and the bottom of the Railko seems to be made of the same stuff the side of the bush is made from - just wondering if there is a need for this 2mm thrust washer / spacer?

Any thoughts / ideas / words of wisdom for my little predicament?

I made a couple of 2mm shims yesterday from some Mild Steel I had in the shed. IF 4.75mm is correct / OK, I'll put one on the top aand one on the bottom and equalise the shims so as to keep the hub assembly central around the swivel.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

OK, update time...

I am going to blame my lack of progress yesterday on fatigue!!


Went back to the garage this morning and had another go...

I double checked there wasn't already a thrust washer in the bush, thus making the one I added = 2 washers - there wasn't.

I read last night a few people saying there should be a 1.0mm shim in the bottom peg, so this time putting a 1.0mm shim on the bottom peg - figured I had nothing to loose.

I then tapped the steering arm all the way home in the Railko and proceeded to tighten the 4 x nuts to pull the housing up. At this stage I had no shims in the top but stopped tightening the nuts when I thought the pre-load was about right, I then measured the "shim depth" with some feeler gauges.

After a couple of goes I got 1.90mm of shims in the top and 1.0mm in the bottom.

This gave 3.0kg with the front wheels essentially on full left lock and it increased upto about 6 - 7kg through the straight ahead position and reduced to about 5kg on full right lock.

I suspect I will need to revisit the pre-load and shim depth once the car has done a few miles.


Does 1.0mm at the bottom and 1.90mm at the top sound about right? Should I transfer 0.45mm to the bottom pin and remove it from the top (to equal out the shims)??

Thanks
Jon

[wrinklearthur]

I have been thinking about this, but it has been a bit too long since I did a set up on the swivel pin housings, I did my first ones when I was in my mid teens and that was nearly fifty years ago. :wheelchair::rocket:

I do remember that the swivel pin housing seal needed some sealant between the seal and the where it sat in the outer housing ( because of the rust pits ) and it was important to set the housing so the gap between the ball and the housing was equal, so the seal sat against the swivel pin ball evenly top and bottom.

Do the preload before the seal is finally in place, using a bit of string and a spring scale to measure the resistance to the pull. All the info is in the series one workshop manual.
.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

A quick update.

The drivers side swivel is now almost rebuilt.

#1
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/1043.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qYQRDm)11" Brake Backing Plate (https://flic.kr/p/qYQRDm) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

#2
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/1044.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qJyaQ1)Original Hub plus 11x3 brake back plate - NO spacer #2 (https://flic.kr/p/qJyaQ1) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

#3
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/1045.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qJH9iK)Original Hub plus 11x3 brake back plate - NO spacer (https://flic.kr/p/qJH9iK) by Jon_Kelly (https://www.flickr.com/people/100552867@N05/), on Flickr

I have a few questions...
Question 1 if I may:
On reassembly, should the stub axle butt up against the swivel housing and then the brake backing plate butt up against the stub axle?
This is how the passenger side is put together (and I haven't dismantled that yet) but thought I better ask / check. All seems OK on re-assembly.


Question 2:
The 11" x 3" brakes came with a 9.5mm spacer (one for each side) that had originally been installed on the inside of the brake drum (witness marks visible). I am presuming I don't need this for the 86" because the wheel bearing assembly won't slide home on the stub axle if I do, and if Ive got the order in Q1 above correct!


Thanks
Jon

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Very nice looking job! :)

The stub axle goes onto the swivel housing and then the backing plate fits on the outside followed by the bolts. You will notice that there is a shoulder in the stab axle that is the same thickness as the backing plate. (Or you could fit a set of cookey's disk brake conversion which bolts to the same place where the backing plate was originally. :angel: )

Going back a step, did your swivel housings have two studs with the shoulder for the steering levers? This is sometimes the reason for the steering lever to sit up untill you get them into the correct position, but may only be a function of the SIIa and SIII swivels with the larger studs.

How did you check and adjust your preload?

You can add or subtract shims to the top or bottom, but it is also important to centre the seal on the swivel ball.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Thanks Diana.

Ive just looked through my phone at another photo of the stub axle. I hadn't realised the lip you mentioned when I had the bits in my hand but I can see now what you mean!! Fortunately its all gone together in the right order!!

As for the swivel housing (top) steering arm studs, 1 of the 4 on the top had a shoulder, the other 3 are all the same and parallel shafted.

Checking and setting the pre-load was a long and tiresome case of trial and error. Initially I put no shims on the bottom pin and then needed about 2.5mm of shims on the top - This gave me some indication of total shim depth, I then put half on the bottom pin and half under the steering arm and then put it back together and tried again. I measured the pre-load with some digital suitcase scales!!

Amazingly, once I got it very close to "specification", I could tell a difference between 1 thou. Now I have 1 or 2 thou more shims in the bottom than the top. This seems to allow the swivel oil seal to seal against the swivel.

I used a torque wrench on all 8 nuts each time (30Nm) to ensure I was comparing apples and apples on the scales. I could find no mention of this in workshop manual but it definitely makes setting the pre-load easier / quicker.


J

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I happened to be reading another post on here about rebuilding some Stage 1 swivels and came across these two photos...

#1
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/926.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/rockminor/media/Land%20Rover%20Series%203%20Stage%201/IMGP1759.jpg.html)

This is the spacer ring that I referred to in one of my earlier (immediately in front of brake backing plate) and is what doesn't allow my S1 hub to fit all the way home if I use it on my S1 wheel bearing assembly - whats its primary purpose?


#2
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/927.jpg (http://s1158.photobucket.com/user/rockminor/media/Land%20Rover%20Series%203%20Stage%201/IMGP1765.jpg.html)

Is this oil seal on the right way round? I have installed mine the other way round. Which is correct???

[S3ute]

Hello from Brisbane.

Don't want to get off the track of your thread, but can I ask what folks are painting hubs, swivel housings and backing plates with?

Prompted by the photos in post #9 - one of the next jobs in my own restoration.

Cheers,

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The manual shows that as a spacer behind the backing plate.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

The manual shows that as a spacer behind the backing plate.

Thanks Diana,
I suspect the spacer behind the backing plate allows for the wider track width on the later vehicles and keeps the brake drum in the same relative position.

I also suspect that the wheel bearing assembly on the later vehicles must have a wider recess machined on the back face (just visible in my earlier photos) to accommodate the extra spacer and stop the bolt heads from clashing.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hello from Brisbane.

Don't want to get off the track of your thread, but can I ask what folks are painting hubs, swivel housings and backing plates with?

Prompted by the photos in post #9 - one of the next jobs in my own restoration.

Cheers,

PM Sent.