D4 standard 19" rims/tyres

[tezel]

After long-term love-hate relationships with Td4 and Td5 Discos towing a small tuff-van all-over, recent purchase of MY15 Discovery has raised eyebrows with 'friends'; main comment when looking at the area of shine in the wheel arches has been 'why the black-topper?' Interested to learn what the experience has been for late D4 owners when on 'light' off-road stuff eg high-country or Flinders Ranges National Park tracks and on long-haul hardpan outback road runs eg. Birdsville and Strezlecki tracks etc with the standard 19" rims/tyres and if the expense of 18" 'compomotives' is advised/warranted?

[BMKal]

There are some who say that the OEM 19" rims are OK for this type of work. The majority of people on here who regularly take their D4's off the bitumen have opted for smaller rims and tyres to suit.

One of the reasons I went with the "base" model 2.7 litre D4 was because it came with 18" rims. (The other reason was cost ;)).Personally, for the type of terrain that you are talking about, I wouldn't be comfortable with anything larger than 18" rims and appropriate tyres.

So yes - I believe that the GOE Rims are a justifiable expense in your case. If I was to replace my D4 with a newer version, the first thing I would change on it would be to fit a set of Gordon's rims. ;)

[Tombie]

Well said BM....

[rar110]

After long-term love-hate relationships with Td4 and Td5 Discos towing a small tuff-van all-over, recent purchase of MY15 Discovery has raised eyebrows with 'friends'; main comment when looking at the area of shine in the wheel arches has been 'why the black-topper?' Interested to learn what the experience has been for late D4 owners when on 'light' off-road stuff eg high-country or Flinders Ranges National Park tracks and on long-haul hardpan outback road runs eg. Birdsville and Strezlecki tracks etc with the standard 19" rims/tyres and if the expense of 18" 'compomotives' is advised/warranted?

I'm in the same quandary. I look forward to seeing opinions.

I could spend $2600 and buy a new set of GOE rims, which I would if I was flush. However, knowing my luck some other huge repair expense would come up and I'd be in trouble. Alternatively I could spend and additional $600 and carry two extra new 19" tyres for such trips.

[wbowner]

I'm in the same quandary. I look forward to seeing opinions.

I could spend $2600 and buy a new set of GOE rims, which I would if I was flush. However, knowing my luck some other huge repair expense would come up and I'd be in trouble. Alternatively I could spend and additional $600 and carry two extra new 19" tyres for such trips.
GOE rims plus 5 or 6 tyres and may be a 6th rim.

I reckon you are getting close to around $3400 for 6 rims.

This assumes you are up for new tyres already.

LOT of money.
Would I do it, you bet if I had the money.

I will replace my tyres this year, I have the original ones and they are not looking good after 36,000. If I have the money after doing other mods I will consider it, ie if any money left.

So am interested in thread comments as well.

Richard

[lrdef110]

Hi Tezel. I have a SDV6 D4 which came with 19" rims. In my experience, the OEM tyres are really not suitable for the sort of use you are intending so in the very least you will require better tyres. I have done all of the iconic tracks in the Vic high country, Gibb River Rd inc Kalumbaru (towing a van) and Canning Stock Route on the 19" rims with General Grabber tyres. Although I only suffered 2 flats in all of these travels the CSR corrugations stuffed the rims up big time. As soon as I returned from WA I got a set of the GOE 18" rims & Bridgestone D697's and honestly IMO the extra expense of the rims when you will need better tyres anyway easily offsets the worry and hassle of changing flats or carrying extra spares. I only wish I had sold my 19" rims to blokes that want to carry extra spares and got the 18" GOE rims before the 19" rims stuffed up and were worth nothing. From my experience the 18"GOE rims and D697's are a great combination that are hard to go past for the sort of travel you are intending.

Cheers

[rar110]

I am in need of new tyres anyway.

Gordon's rims are $570 delivered (from his website).

I think I know what I would be thinking if I was in woop woop with a cracked rim or two.

[wbowner]

Do people actually buy the 19" rims. If so any idea how much they go for.

That should be, perhaps, factored into the cost equation.

Richard

[RHS58]

Do people actually buy the 19" rims. If so any idea how much they go for.

That should be, perhaps, factored into the cost equation.

Richard

The 19's often appear on eBay.
Between $1000 and $1200 for set of 4 rims. Occasionally the sellers will sell them singly.
Not bad when LR Dealers want $1100 per rim.

Better option, if you have the dollars, might be to buy a set of GOE rims and tyres, put the original wheels in the shed, and when time comes to sell the car, put the original rims back on, and sell your GOE rims second hand.
Bet the depreciation on the GOE's will be a lot less.

[jon3950]

There are some who say that the OEM 19" rims are OK for this type of work. The majority of people on here who regularly take their D4's off the bitumen have opted for smaller rims and tyres to suit.


Well they are ok, but they're not great. :D Certainly the oem tyres are not good enough.

I've done all the stuff you've mentioned on 19"s with Zeons without any tyre problems, so it can be done. However, running on 19"s isn't fun - you always have to be careful.

Justifying the cost is always the difficult part. If you were talking about a once off trip, I'd just run the 19"s and be careful. If you intend visiting these areas regularly and can afford the 18"s, just get them.

The aren't many rims you can buy that are better than Compomotives - if you damage one you will probably have bigger problems to deal with, and by all accounts the D697s are proving to be a very good tyre. Despite my good run with the 19"s these will be going on mine before my next outback trip.

You'll need to buy tyres at some point anyway, so the extra cost is only the rims.

Cheers,
Jon

[wbowner]

The 19's often appear on eBay.
Between $1000 and $1200 for set of 4 rims. Occasionally the sellers will sell them singly.
Not bad when LR Dealers want $1100 per rim.

Better option, if you have the dollars, might be to buy a set of GOE rims and tyres, put the original wheels in the shed, and when time comes to sell the car, put the original rims back on, and sell your GOE rims second hand.
Bet the depreciation on the GOE's will be a lot less.

Good option if you have the room. I had a set of original tyres in my shed for 5 years until I gor sick of them taking up so much space but take your point.
Space has been reused with more junk now :).

Richard

Forgot to ask are people buying 4 ,5 or 6 GOE rims. I believe it is easier to get the tyres off the GOE rims compared to LRs.
Is that true?

[catch-22]

Better option, if you have the dollars, might be to buy a set of GOE rims and tyres, put the original wheels in the shed, and when time comes to sell the car, put the original rims back on, and sell your GOE rims second hand.
Bet the depreciation on the GOE's will be a lot less.

excellent point

[NomadicD3]

[QUOTE=RHS58;2302746]The 19's often appear on eBay.
Between $1000 and $1200 for set of 4 rims. Occasionally the sellers will sell them singly.
Not bad when LR Dealers want $1100 per rim.

I'm not sure where you've seen people trying to sell a set of 19's for that sort of money. I've had a set out the back for a few years that on a couple of occasions have put them up for sale, the whole set of 5. with tyres, for $500 and have never had an inquiry. Even the stealer down the road sells second hand LR 19's for about $200 a unit.

[RHS58]

I'm not sure where you've seen people trying to sell a set of 19's for that sort of money. I've had a set out the back for a few years that on a couple of occasions have put them up for sale, the whole set of 5. with tyres, for $500 and have never had an inquiry. Even the stealer down the road sells second hand LR 19's for about $200 a unit.


Here then:

19 Inch Genuine Land Rover Discovery 4 2014 Model Single Alloy Wheel | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/19-inch-Genuine-LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-4-2014-Model-SINGLE-alloy-Wheel-/331408079642?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d2975fb1a)


This will be at least the third set of this style rim he's offered.
First set went for $1200, second set for $999.

I shared the second set (included 20 LR wheel nuts) with some other people who wanted extra spares. The rims were pristine - obviously driven only from showroom to wheel shop.
There must be D4 buyers in Sydney putting bigger rims and lower profile tyres on their "street" D4's?

And no dealer in SEQ offered me a rim for under $1100+

[rar110]

A set of RRV 19s, like I've got, have been listed on eBay for a while $650, no bids.

[Greatsouthernland]

I can't believe LR constantly wins 4wd of the year and we are faced with no genuine option for the SDV6 to get decent tyre height...across this whole planet of design input, the cheaper TDV6 is more sure-footed off-road.

Unfreakenbelievable...:mad:

[Tombie]

I can't believe LR constantly wins 4wd of the year and we are faced with no genuine option for the SDV6 to get decent tyre height...across this whole planet of design input, the cheaper TDV6 is more sure-footed off-road.



Unfreakenbelievable...:mad:


You do realise the difference in sidewall for the factory rubber is 6.3mm between the 18 and 19"

And is only 9.35mm if the 18" is running a 265 tyre..

Of competition (Toyota and Nissan) sidewalls are all within 10mm of one another.

Not such a big difference at all.. Just have to wait for manufacturers to Catch up

[SBD4]

I guess the point is less about the factory rims and more about the fact that it is not possible to fit smaller than 18" rims (to the 3.0ltr). Were it not for Gordon's rims we'd be stuck at 19" as the smallest rim. if the car itself was not as good as it is, these tyre/rim sizes would present a huge (offroad) performance disadvantage. As it is, I think the car makes these sizes look like better performers than they otherwise would be (not accounting the higher puncture risk of course).

[Epic pooh]

My personal view is that LR engineers generally know what they are doing and I am loathe to second guess them (my vehicle and use is more a 'swiss army knife' than a hardcore machine).

For my use, the real issue is the relative lack of rugged / LT tyres in the 19" because as Tombie rightly points out the difference (in standard sizes) in sidewall between 18" and 19" is trivial. Being (hyper) aware of the limitations of my tyres simply means I go a bit slower and more carefully and it's all good (albeit mildly stressful at times).

Again, just my personal view, harder users will likely not agree.

[jon3950]

You do realise the difference in sidewall for the factory rubber is 6.3mm between the 18 and 19"

And is only 9.35mm if the 18" is running a 265 tyre..

Of competition (Toyota and Nissan) sidewalls are all within 10mm of one another.

Not such a big difference at all.. Just have to wait for manufacturers to Catch up

This is very true and to be honest I have found the LTZ in 19" to be better than GG AT2s in 18", which I had on my D3.

If the GGs were still the best option in 18" I wouldn't bother changing. However as you well know it's all about the construction and now there is a decent LT available in 18" it becomes a worthwhile proposition. The same was true between the 18"s and 17"s I had on the D3 - there was a huge difference between the 18" GGs and 17" KM2s.

As you say though, once the tyre manufacturers catch up we won't think twice about running 19"s. We'll probably be having the same discussions about 20" vs 22"s.

Cheers,
Jon

[Epic pooh]

On the weekend I was down at Yalwal on my 19" tyres with my trusty Wranglers (haha). Some of the trails are in seriously nasty condition, big washouts, ruts, mud bogs, exposed tree roots and rocks in dangerous places. We wheeled along (knowing the area reasonably well) through trails and thought not much of it until we arrived at an area that is usually teeming with people ... to find the only vehicles there were a bunch of seriously modified nissyotas and a very cool Daihatsu Feroza (modified off it's head) ... we had a chat and they were all very surprised my shiny Disco had gotten that far ... then one took a look at my girly tyres and told me I was nuts ... I got in and out of the area no worries and on my way home I was thinking, not me who's nuts, I'm quiet and comfortable on my trusty Wrangler HP's .... you guys on your Dick Cepek MT whatevers and your 6" raised suspension, maybe not so much (except the Daihatsu guy, I was envious of him).

My only issue of the day is the real problem to me with Wranglers - nasty side slip when at angles on slippery surfaces .... had to be very very slow and careful between various trees and rocks ... but all good because I'm a bit slow anyway !

[Greatsouthernland]

You do realise the difference in sidewall for the factory rubber is 6.3mm between the 18 and 19"

And is only 9.35mm if the 18" is running a 265 tyre..

Of competition (Toyota and Nissan) sidewalls are all within 10mm of one another.

Not such a big difference at all.. Just have to wait for manufacturers to Catch up

Hi Tombie,

no I wasn't aware of the exact difference. My 'mild' gripe is the distinct lack of options in 19in as others posted.

I note you went to 18s probably at a large expense...probably due to lack of rubber choice in 19 vs gaining 6mm of tyre wall height?

While I don't have the background of a Tata mechanical engineer, I'll accept there are huge advantages to larger calipers (especially the way I like to drive :D ) my relatively small whinge - I just want some chunky tread without forking out for changing rims. There, vented and moving on :cool:

[Tombie]

I never went 18s - my D4 is 2.7 (there wasn't enough incentive to spend $13k back then to go 3.0l) :D

As I mentioned once before - I think the greatest reason for damage is that the vehicles isolate the driver so well that we are pushing them harder and faster than the other vehicles and any impact is greater to the vehicle but shielded from the occupants.

I know the Cruiser at 70km/h was shaking his fillings out.
I was chasing him down at 120km/h and it was like a magic carpet ride.

[Tombie]

Interestingly - the 20" market is better catered for with offroad rubber than the 19" market.. Go figure!

[jon3950]

As I mentioned once before - I think the greatest reason for damage is that the vehicles isolate the driver so well that we are pushing them harder and faster than the other vehicles and any impact is greater to the vehicle but shielded from the occupants.

And it would seem that most of the issues people are having are on relatively rough, relatively high speed roads.

Conversely, I think I am travelling more slowly on rough surfaces in the D4 than I have in previous 4wds. I have noticed my travelling times on a few High Country tracks have increased. I am certainly far more careful with the tyres than before.

Cheers,
Jon

[Epic pooh]

I'm like you Jon, everyone is faster than me offroad ! I just go at a comfortable speed - respect for passengers, tyres and the vehicle generally. I often **** people off with my slow offroad speed I think. I used to go a lot faster in my older LR's and Yotas ... but I think age may also have something to do with it too ;)

I sent my wife and oldest daughter for a ride in the Jeep on the weekend (so they could experience the 'comfort') - my wife reckons her bra was not working at all and my daughter said it was like a carnival ride.

[PhilipA]

To keep it in perspective I have been off roading since 1977 with 15 inch and 16 inch wheels and NEVER had a puncture or ruined tyre.

Whoops I lie. I just remembered I was driving across a vacant lot in Riyadh and drove over a bit of rebar sticking out of concrete in 1985.

Compare this with over Christmas/new Year when on the Range Rover Club trip to Geehi, 2 D4s lost 19 inch Wranglers in 2 days. Of course there is the bloke in the Range Rover Club who destroyed 11 Coopers on 18s on his way to Darwin from Sydney so 18s are not a panacea.

I would like to think that LR could engineer 17 inch rims for D4 seeing Toyota manage it on Prados. Maybe it is the necessity to pull up from Vmax on an autobahn which is totally irrelevant in Australia however fashionable it seems.
For all the arguments about 18 and 19 inch wheels IMHO there is no doubt that 17 inch rims would result in far fewer tyre losses and for drivers to not be continually worrying about their tyres.

To me it is just another or maybe the main signifier of the lack of importance that LR gives to Australia and why they lost the genuine offroad market to Toyota.
Regards Philip A

[Tombie]

As I pointed out - try doing 100km/h on some tracks in a Prado - you'll change your mind and slow down quick smart... :cool:

In a D4 you wont - you just don't notice how rough its getting... This leads drivers to push equipment beyond what they normally would.

I know in the Defender even, I wouldnt contemplate the pace I run the D4 some times...

I know I was taken by surprise when I went to turn in at close to the state limit on an outback track!!!!! The vehicles in front didnt mind, they were well under that speed due to track conditions...

The guy behind got a great display of 3.2t of D4 trying to defy physics :angel:

The old adage of 80km/h max is a great way to prevent damage (and enjoy the drive)...

And for the record, I've done 8 years on 18s and not a puncture to be seen.. Last puncture I had was in a 16" tyre on a Commodore in 1997 :cool:
I have never punctured one of my tyres offroad.

[rar110]

I generally sat on about 90km/h on good sections of the Oodnadatta and Birdsville tracks on the last trip in the 110 with 16" Goodyear Silent Armours. I got one puncture, easily repaired in Maree.

I think I would be happy doing the same speed in the RRV with 19" ATRs. It would probably feel slower.

[PAT303]

IMHO the tyre trouble is no different to any other issue people have in the bush,95% of them are operator error,either the wrong type of tyre,overloading,wrong pressure etc or in my case the tyres were tubed and blew out or like the MTR's were complete crap.Living in northern outback WA we had the bicky dipper migration every winter and plenty arrived in town with bent and destroyed 16-17'' tyres and rims,like Philip posted with the guy who destroyed 11 tyres,people are like that,my mate is like that,he can't go anywhere without breaking something. Pat

[PhilipA]

I guess it's like the problems we used to have at press launches with R100 BMWS when I was marketing Manager.

I used to have to get the mechanic to check all the wheels at every stop after being on a dirt road, as the suspension was so absorbent that the journalists would ride so fast they would bottom the suspension "HARD"and bend wheels. Maybe that is the same reason that D4 s bend wheels, but the driver should be aware of the limits of the car.

But its not that wise to travel at warp speed even in a D4 on dirt as some surprises can come up very quickly and the laws of Physics stay the same in a D2 or D4. The reason that Prados don't thrash as well on a dirt track is that they are a compromise and very conservatively designed.

That is why they are relatively so much more reliable than D3/D4s. Toyota certainly has the resources to develop a full air suspension but they never have .

I have to say in defence of "old "tech however that I have never found the fact that a D2 with springs doesn't corner as flat as a D4 a problem. On roads like the Alpine Way, I have no problem at all in keeping up with D3 and D4 when travelling in convoy. Maybe out of some uphill corners I have to use a lower gear .

What I am trying to say is that at speeds where the "speed brake" does not dig fingers into ones thigh and say pointedly "slow down" there is little difference . It's only when you are going too fast for comfort or sense that the delights of a D4 become evident.

As the D4 bloke who trashed a tyre and broke a rear quarter window said after the Pinnibar track. How am I going to tell my wife? She will go ballistic!
Regards Philip A

[PAT303]

Adding to that I've always run standard vehicles,it's supprising how well a defender points and turns when it isn't burdened with half an ARB store hanging off it,saying that no coil sprung vehicle will touch an EAS Land Rover on a long outback crossing,the L322 was stable regardless of speed,40 or 140,that sucker was planted,composed and angelic. Pat

[jon3950]

I'm like you Jon, everyone is faster than me offroad ! I just go at a comfortable speed - respect for passengers, tyres and the vehicle generally. I often **** people off with my slow offroad speed I think. I used to go a lot faster in my older LR's and Yotas ... but I think age may also have something to do with it too ;)

Hmmm, and you don't have problems with the 19"s offroad? Coincidence? ;)


Compare this with over Christmas/new Year when on the Range Rover Club trip to Geehi, 2 D4s lost 19 inch Wranglers in 2 days. Of course there is the bloke in the Range Rover Club who destroyed 11 Coopers on 18s on his way to Darwin from Sydney so 18s are not a panacea.

I understand what you're saying and don't really disagree, but I know what those tracks were like over Christmas. I spent a couple of days quietly cruising around them on my 19"s without any problems. They were certainly rough, but they weren't tyre breakers. To me it's more to do with the construction than size. Whilst Mr Pooh seems to be having a good run with his Wranglers I don't think they are up to that sort of usage. However I wouldn't hesitate to take my 19"s with LTZs back there. What I would say is they are less forgiving if you stuff things up.


To me it is just another or maybe the main signifier of the lack of importance that LR gives to Australia and why they lost the genuine offroad market to Toyota.
Regards Philip A

I just don't think they really get Australia and that's not just to do with tyres. They don't seem to understand how we use our vehicles out here and just how harsh this environment is. I think they would really benefit by sending a couple of engineers out here to experience it first hand - without the back-up they seem to have on their "expeditions".

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

What I am trying to say is that at speeds where the "speed brake" does not dig fingers into ones thigh and say pointedly "slow down" there is little difference . It's only when you are going too fast for comfort or sense that the delights of a D4 become evident.

Until something goes wrong....

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Adding to that I've always run standard vehicles,it's supprising how well a defender points and turns when it isn't burdened with half an ARB store hanging off it

Geez Pat, I hope you're not suggesting all those accessories aren't necessary. How would ARB survive?

Cheers,
Jon

[Tombie]

I just don't think they really get Australia and that's not just to do with tyres. They don't seem to understand how we use our vehicles out here and just how harsh this environment is. I think they would really benefit by sending a couple of engineers out here to experience it first hand - without the back-up they seem to have on their "expeditions".



Cheers,

Jon


You mean like all the remote area testing they did/do in Australia, and South Africa?

Consider this... They get it... It's most Aussies that don't...

We make "hot and dusty" seem like it's the only rough environment.
Frozen well below zero, Icy, slippery, muddy, salty is as tough if not more so.

Overloading is prevalent in Australia - very much so... Vehicles running constantly at or above GVM...

Like an engine - it has a red line. You can run right up there all the time, same for GVM. But don't expect it to be like something that's driven mid range (or hardly tows).

Aussies seem to expect to bolt 1+ tonne on, lift it, big rubber, overload the inside, hook a load on the arse and then flog it mercilessly in 43? heat at 100km/h plus over the roughest tracks they can find...

And then complain when it needs additional servicing and maintenance. :)

Another prime example is Aussies desire for 3500kg Caravans... Nowhere else do you see such monolithic examples of obese vans being tugged around.
Built using old techniques and technologies resulting in such ridiculous weights...

For those, Iveco etc are more suited...

And we keep flattering ourselves... Australian market is almost ZERO of global sales...

If you had a business which audience would you target as prime?

[stray dingo]

well to stick my 2c in too to the original question...

If I had the cash for GOE rims, there'd be no hesitation.

having said that, I had found the 19 Zeons comfortable on and off road. But I did need a replacement in Alice after the Mereenie Loop Rd, and it still took a week for the cooper dealer to get it in, and that was expressed couriered from Adelaide. He said no problem with 18s. I would'nt have considered Alice would've been that far flung no to carry at least something in that size - but not a single store had one. (well, except a 2nd hand worn out Wrangler)

[jon3950]

You mean like all the remote area testing they did/do in Australia, and South Africa?

Consider this... They get it... It's most Aussies that don't...

We make "hot and dusty" seem like it's the only rough environment.
Frozen well below zero, Icy, slippery, muddy, salty is as tough if not more so.

Overloading is prevalent in Australia - very much so... Vehicles running constantly at or above GVM...

Like an engine - it has a red line. You can run right up there all the time, same for GVM. But don't expect it to be like something that's driven mid range (or hardly tows).

Aussies seem to expect to bolt 1+ tonne on, lift it, big rubber, overload the inside, hook a load on the arse and then flog it mercilessly in 43? heat at 100km/h plus over the roughest tracks they can find...

And then complain when it needs additional servicing and maintenance. :)

Another prime example is Aussies desire for 3500kg Caravans... Nowhere else do you see such monolithic examples of obese vans being tugged around.
Built using old techniques and technologies resulting in such ridiculous weights...

For those, Iveco etc are more suited...

And we keep flattering ourselves... Australian market is almost ZERO of global sales...

If you had a business which audience would you target as prime?

I actually agree with what you are saying here. They get the big bits right, its just some of the details that let them down. I am thinking more of their consistent use of substandard materials (eg I am about to have to get my second dashboard replaced), fuel tanks that are not big enough and the innappropriate choice of rim sizes. No matter how much we defend it, with the current choice of tyres available, 19" rims are not the ideal size for a touring vehicle.

A couple of weeks of hot weather testing is no substitute for living with these vehicles long term in this environment. Whether this market is worth it or not is a different argument.

Cheers,
Jon

[Tombie]

Jon, what's happened to your dash?

It's strange.. Bridgestone tech department is working on the 19" range so fingers crossed...

Next thing would be to look at getting a brake company to make 2 callipers suited to the D4 with a design allowing that couple of mm clearance which is all that's needed to run 18s

[rufusking]

Next thing would be to look at getting a brake company to make 2 callipers suited to the D4 with a design allowing that couple of mm clearance which is all that's needed to run 18s

It's been done. Now all we need is an AU automotive engineer to certify it for Australia.

BRAKES KIT FOR WHEELS 17 “D4 E RRS10 | MUDTECH 4?4 (http://www.mudtech4x4.com/kit-freni-per-ruote-da-17-d4-e-rrs10/?lang=en)

[jon3950]

Jon, what's happened to your dash?


The dashpad creaks. The first one was driving me nuts. The second one was nice and quiet for about a month but has also started creaking. Apparently some bits inside de-laminate because of the heat (didn't get to see it unfortunately). From what I am told it seems to be a common problem. It happened on my D3 as well.

Mine lives outside so it gets a lot of sun, which doesn't help.

Cheers,
Jon

[PAT303]

I actually agree with what you are saying here. They get the big bits right, its just some of the details that let them down. I am thinking more of their consistent use of substandard materials (eg I am about to have to get my second dashboard replaced), fuel tanks that are not big enough and the innappropriate choice of rim sizes. No matter how much we defend it, with the current choice of tyres available, 19" rims are not the ideal size for a touring vehicle.

A couple of weeks of hot weather testing is no substitute for living with these vehicles long term in this environment. Whether this market is worth it or not is a different argument.

Cheers,
Jon
The 200 series,79 and 76 series all come fitted with 90ltre fuel tanks as standard,except for the 200 none have A/C as standard and all need GVM-suspension upgrades straight after purchase,as far as rims-tyres go all LR vehicles can pass the emergency brake test,the 200 and 76 can't,give me 19'' rims and brakes that work any day,hot weather testing?,I've driven my LR's in the hottest conditions Australia has to offer without issue,maintenance and common sense helps,hot weather testing is pointless when Australians insist on covering the front of their vehicles with ARB bullbars and 10'' spotties. Pat

[PAT303]

The dashpad creaks. The first one was driving me nuts. The second one was nice and quiet for about a month but has also started creaking. Apparently some bits inside de-laminate because of the heat (didn't get to see it unfortunately). From what I am told it seems to be a common problem. It happened on my D3 as well.

Mine lives outside so it gets a lot of sun, which doesn't help.

Cheers,
Jon

Do what Tojo do,soak it in teflon spray. Pat

[Tombie]

The dashpad creaks. The first one was driving me nuts. The second one was nice and quiet for about a month but has also started creaking. Apparently some bits inside de-laminate because of the heat (didn't get to see it unfortunately). From what I am told it seems to be a common problem. It happened on my D3 as well.



Mine lives outside so it gets a lot of sun, which doesn't help.



Cheers,

Jon


Mine lives outside too... Just had first dash top replaced as I had trouble with it and local dealer had 4 goes.

Sniegys team replaced it at my end of warranty service.

Makes 2 creaks each start and then perfect... I believe bull bars amplify this effect.

[Tombie]

It's been done. Now all we need is an AU automotive engineer to certify it for Australia.



BRAKES KIT FOR WHEELS 17 ?D4 E RRS10 | MUDTECH 4?4 (http://www.mudtech4x4.com/kit-freni-per-ruote-da-17-d4-e-rrs10/?lang=en)


No that's a small brake retrofit which has been done by Graeme.

I'm talking a calliper with about 4mm of fins not there.
That will enable 18s

[jon3950]

Do what Tojo do,soak it in teflon spray. Pat

Something along those lines is the first step. When that doesn't work they replace the dash.

Its under warranty so not my problem, they can do what they like to fix it so long as the noise goes away.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Mine lives outside too... Just had first dash top replaced as I had trouble with it and local dealer had 4 goes.

Sniegys team replaced it at my end of warranty service.

Makes 2 creaks each start and then perfect... I believe bull bars amplify this effect.

You're lucky then and I'm sure yours sees more sun than mine. May have been a bit unlucky with the second one as we had a few very hot days in Sydney not long after it was replaced. Still, it shouldn't happen.

Cheers,
Jon

[Greatsouthernland]

... fuel tanks that are not big enough and the innappropriate choice of rim sizes. No matter how much we defend it, with the current choice of tyres available, 19" rims are not the ideal size for a touring vehicle.


Amen brother :D

[Epic pooh]

On the topic of speed and 19" wranglers - on the rough road up to a mates property (corrugated gravel with big washouts from the rain) my wife commented on my speed, she said "dear do you need me to drive ?" "Why" I responded and she said "because 15 years ago I can remember coming up here in Herbert our old Camry and we were going a lot faster and I'd like to get there today". Obviously I said "we will get there today my way, your way may have me changing a tyre so I'm with the driving".

We were down Cape Otway way early in the year in the holden and on some dirt roads I was doing 20kmh and we had a similar conversation (19" 40 profile summer sport tyres). We got there but she wasn't too happy when I suggested she enjoy the view. She says I'm getting soft - I say she doesn't have to do the repairs or tyre changes ....

My dash developed a split a couple of years ago - my solution was a dash mat and it hasn't gotten any worse.

Totally agree with what has been said by Jon about the quality of some components (plastic coolant parts, suspension bushes, door seals).

But generally I reckon the vehicle is built like a tank (and weighs about the same which is part of the issue with component wear).

Tombie, your comment about 19" bridgestones - do you have any other info ? Do you know what kind of a 19 they are looking at producing ?

[scarry]

I actually agree with what you are saying here. They get the big bits right, its just some of the details that let them down. I am thinking more of their consistent use of substandard materials (eg I am about to have to get my second dashboard replaced), fuel tanks that are not big enough and the innappropriate choice of rim sizes. No matter how much we defend it, with the current choice of tyres available, 19" rims are not the ideal size for a touring vehicle.

A couple of weeks of hot weather testing is no substitute for living with these vehicles long term in this environment. Whether this market is worth it or not is a different argument.

Cheers,
Jon

LR have said that this will change in future models.

Particularly with the Defender replacement,they will keep to "common" tyre and wheel sizes,what ever that means

Maybe the thousands of complaints about the issue have at last got back to the designers.

[rufusking]

LR have said that this will change in future models.

Particularly with the Defender replacement,they will keep to "common" tyre and wheel sizes,what ever that means

Read that in the UK's "Car" magazine, LR suggested it will be interchangeable with Toyota!

[Greatsouthernland]

Read that in the UK's "Car" magazine, LR suggested it will be interchangeable with Toyota!

Nothing wrong with that. Smart move IMO.

[dukemasterpro]

I've provided lots of feedback on tyres, accessories, battery going flat to a recent LR survey that the engineers apparently get to see. Never had so many surveys emailed after a new car purchase - hope they listen!

[PAT303]

Nothing wrong with that. Smart move IMO.

Why?,so we get 6 stud Toyota,5 stud Toyota,5 stud Land Rover,5 stud Toyota/Land Rover all with different off sets?,hows that smart?. Pat

[rar110]

I think he was referring to rim size, ie 17" or 18". Tyre sizes used by Toyota Nissan & MMC are more available.

[rar110]

Anyone have experience with 275 55 19 tyres? They provide about 10mm more wall height than 255 55 19s.

[Greatsouthernland]

Anyone have experience with 275 55 19 tyres? They provide about 10mm more wall height than 255 55 19s.

No...but I'd be interested in what (if much) variation these would cause to the indicated speed. Hopefully someone has done a gps check on these and the standards... Good call rar ;)

[rar110]

I've just realised 275 55 needs a 8.5 rim, so not that good a suggestion.

So I'm back to 255 55 19s or 255 60 19s which have a 5mm taller side wall.

[Tombie]

I've just realised 275 55 needs a 8.5 rim, so not that good a suggestion.

So I'm back to 255 55 19s or 255 60 19s which have a 5mm taller side wall.


275 55 19 fit a 7.5 to 9.5inch rim

[Melbourne Park]

Just on the earlier comments about vans being too heavy: they get heavy for a reason. Namely the same reason the Disco is heavy - strength.

Plus with a trailer, water, power and refrigeration adds lots of weight.

An example: someone I know bought over a few years a number of Ultimate Off Road branded trailers. They are quite light weight. Their tear is 750kg.

My friend's last Ultimate was weighed at the weighbridge. Its weight was no longer 750kg. Instead, it was a bit over 2,000kg.

Many trailers now have 300kg of water; some have a loo (these days some Parks want a loo and a black water tank for you to go in). So ... that's 380kg alone. Then add solar power weighing 50kg. And awning weighing 70kg. Tent pegs weigh too; A fridge will weigh 60kg plus its contents - 100kg there. Where are we? 600kg already. And no batteries. Or food except for the fridge. Or fuel. Or spare tyres on wheels - which weight 45kg each.

So you are around 1,000kg already. Then add the weight of a trailer to handle the weight, plus its two tyres, and a heavier decent suspension. 2 tonne is easy to get.

And that is why the LC200 is popular - it can pull 3 tonne without worries.

So too the Discovery. But ... can the Discovery's tyres?

They are narrower than an LC200's. And the vehicle weight is quite close. Perhaps that is why the Discovery only has 83 litres of fuel - any more, and their weight might become an issue. Or is it because they want better fuel economy figures, and the bigger the tank, the heavier the fuel economy tests make the vehicle weight.

And if you read the weights of the Disco - its rear axle takes more weight than its front does I believe.

Then add the toe ball weight onto those rear Disco tyres. That weight can be 350kg.

Add another fridge in the back of the Disco too. And a tyre setup. Maybe a long range fuel tank.

Now - put that onto a big 4WD market for Land Rover - the middle east. They have lots of sand.

What do you do in sand? You let the tyres down, to increase the area, by having the tyre go longer (the width gain is much more marginal).

By having an 18" wheel of the same circumference and width at the standard 19" Discovery wheel, you will get a lot more lift or buoyancy from such 18" tyres when deflated to 20 PSI than with a 19" tyre. The equivalent of 900kg less weight on the back, compared to a similarly deflated 19" tyre.

And that has nothing to do with tyre toughness.

So I reckon Land Rover have been very slack with their wheel requirements.

But so too have Toyota with their Prado. Because the Prado VX and Kakadu, cannot take 17" wheels. They are restricted to 18" wheels, due to their KDSS suspension systems. And by the way, the Kakadu does have an air suspension system on its rear live axle. Its not active though the way the Land Rover is.

It seems to me that both companies look at each other. So in the top Prado models, KDSS mean't bigger wheels - so Land Rover said not to worry, we won't bother developing an 18" wheel when we put the big brakes on.

Likewise, Prado Kakadu owners did not like the first 150 series off road mode controls (snow, rock etc like Land Rover), because they were push buttons. So in 2013, the update 150 series Kakadu got a round dial to select the modes.

And Land Rover switched from a round dial for their modes, to push buttons ...

That tells me something about the companies looking at eachother's features.

But really, LR should have made available factory 18" wheels. Very strange that one, because they are a big benefit.

[letherm]

I need to replace 1 tyre after splitting the sidewall last Friday. Still on the OEM ones with only 10,500 km so I'm going to buy the same tyre. Looked on the web and the standard price appears to be $455 fitted and balanced at the usual big name dealers. There are two online stores I saw - TYROOLA for $337 delivered but does not cover fitting etc. TYRESALES.COM.AU for $417 delivered to a dealer and includes fitting and balancing.

Does anyone have any experience with either of the two online stores. Obviously I don't want to run around without a spare for too long.

Martin

[ADMIRAL]

Now - put that onto a big 4WD market for Land Rover - the middle east. They have lots of sand.

What do you do in sand? You let the tyres down, to increase the area, by having the tyre go longer (the width gain is much more marginal).

By having an 18" wheel of the same circumference and width at the standard 19" Discovery wheel, you will get a lot more lift or buoyancy from such 18" tyres when deflated to 20 PSI than with a 19" tyre. The equivalent of 900kg less weight on the back, compared to a similarly deflated 19" tyre.

And that has nothing to do with tyre toughness.

So I reckon Land Rover have been very slack with their wheel requirements.

Plenty of sand over here too. If you stay with LT rated tyres, you will have plenty of capacity to lift your pressure to cope with heavy caravan weights. A lot of AT's max out at 45-50 psi. The LT's have another 10- 15 psi in hand.

I run 265/60/18's, have no issues in sand at 16-18 psi.

Just another compromise by a vehicle manufacturer. They cannot tailor a vehicle exclusively for an extreme user, when the majority of a vehicle's usage is on blacktop. At the end of the day, if you find the bias is not strong enough to harder use in a Disco, you would look at a Defender, would you not ?

[wbowner]

Now - put that onto a big 4WD market for Land Rover - the middle east. They have lots of sand.

What do you do in sand? You let the tyres down, to increase the area, by having the tyre go longer (the width gain is much more marginal).

By having an 18" wheel of the same circumference and width at the standard 19" Discovery wheel, you will get a lot more lift or buoyancy from such 18" tyres when deflated to 20 PSI than with a 19" tyre. The equivalent of 900kg less weight on the back, compared to a similarly deflated 19" tyre.

And that has nothing to do with tyre toughness.

So I reckon Land Rover have been very slack with their wheel requirements.

Plenty of sand over here too. If you stay with LT rated tyres, you will have plenty of capacity to lift your pressure to cope with heavy caravan weights. A lot of AT's max out at 45-50 psi. The LT's have another 10- 15 psi in hand.

I run 265/60/18's, have no issues in sand at 16-18 psi.

Just another compromise by a vehicle manufacturer. They cannot tailor a vehicle exclusively for an extreme user, when the majority of a vehicle's usage is on blacktop. At the end of the day, if you find the bias is not strong enough to harder use in a Disco, you would look at a Defender, would you not ?

One bit of difference is that the D4 is marketed as a 4wd and gas one all those awards.

I believe jeep offer an offroad pack which you can opt for at purchase time
Given that 18" rims are viable , re GOE, why do they not offer 18" as an option

After all 18" is mentioned on the plaque as an option.

Instead LR seem to frown upon changing tyre sizes.

I don't believe the defender has the same towing capacity as the D4.

In my case i got my d4 to tow my van in comfort over where ever I want to go. To do this I would prefer a LT tyre which there are none in the 19" range, this may change in the future I suppose
Richard

[DiscoDB]

I need to replace 1 tyre after splitting the sidewall last Friday. Still on the OEM ones with only 10,500 km so I'm going to buy the same tyre. Looked on the web and the standard price appears to be $455 fitted and balanced at the usual big name dealers. There are two online stores I saw - TYROOLA for $337 delivered but does not cover fitting etc. TYRESALES.COM.AU for $417 delivered to a dealer and includes fitting and balancing.

Does anyone have any experience with either of the two online stores. Obviously I don't want to run around without a spare for too long.

Martin

I picked up a single tyre from Tyroola - no issues getting delivered from the east coast to WA - delivered to the front door. Another $25 for fitting and balancing at the local tyre place. Saved at least $100 for the tyre, but then found The Tyre Factory had the same tyre on eBay for $50 cheaper again. So just check the price with eBay, lots of tyre dealers are now selling on line via eBay.

[ADMIRAL]

One bit of difference is that the D4 is marketed as a 4wd and gas one all those awards.

I believe jeep offer an offroad pack which you can opt for at purchase time
Given that 18" rims are viable , re GOE, why do they not offer 18" as an option

After all 18" is mentioned on the plaque as an option.

Instead LR seem to frown upon changing tyre sizes.

I don't believe the defender has the same towing capacity as the D4.

In my case i got my d4 to tow my van in comfort over where ever I want to go. To do this I would prefer a LT tyre which there are none in the 19" range, this may change in the future I suppose
Richard

Hi Richard, I accept the D3/4 is marketed as a 4wd, but it is still a compromise. I would think the lower profile tyres on 18", 19" and up, are largely to benefit blacktop handling, and to allow the fitment of larger brakes. ( and the looks I guess )

It took Gordon ( GOE ) a fair bit of research, and some trial & error development, to finally lock down a suitable rim. They are a close fit, and while LR could undoubtedly have developed an 18" rim, they already had them from earlier models. I doubt the beancounters would have signed off on the R & D for a further variation with limited application.

Not sure on the Defender 110's but I believe the 130's can tow substantially more than a D4. I am sure someone on the forum can correct me.

Yes, I do seem to recall a post recently on a 19" LT becoming available. They will grow in numbers, as more and more vehicles use them. You only have to look at the availability of tyres in the 18" range compared to a couple of years ago. Used to be 2 or 3. Seem to be dozens now.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that a manufacturer will never exactly match their customer expectations. They would obviously try the match the majority ( customers or expectations ) to get the sales. Which is why the aftermarket does such a roaring trade, as individual owners customise their vehicles to better suit their own needs and requirements. In doing so these owners compromise the original manufacturer specifications, even if it is only in the $'s spent.

All that said, I still believe the D3/D4 is the best compromise in the market place.

[wbowner]

Hi Richard, I accept the D3/4 is marketed as a 4wd, but it is still a compromise. I would think the lower profile tyres on 18", 19" and up, are largely to benefit blacktop handling, and to allow the fitment of larger brakes. ( and the looks I guess )

It took Gordon ( GOE ) a fair bit of research, and some trial & error development, to finally lock down a suitable rim. They are a close fit, and while LR could undoubtedly have developed an 18" rim, they already had them from earlier models. I doubt the beancounters would have signed off on the R & D for a further variation with limited application.

Not sure on the Defender 110's but I believe the 130's can tow substantially more than a D4. I am sure someone on the forum can correct me.

Yes, I do seem to recall a post recently on a 19" LT becoming available. They will grow in numbers, as more and more vehicles use them. You only have to look at the availability of tyres in the 18" range compared to a couple of years ago. Used to be 2 or 3. Seem to be dozens now.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that a manufacturer will never exactly match their customer expectations. They would obviously try the match the majority ( customers or expectations ) to get the sales. Which is why the aftermarket does such a roaring trade, as individual owners customise their vehicles to better suit their own needs and requirements. In doing so these owners compromise the original manufacturer specifications, even if it is only in the $'s spent.

All that said, I still believe the D3/D4 is the best compromise in the market place.

Mate agree with what you said and I have been through the tyre saga before on a previous car where it took some time before tyres became available.
Just a pity LR don't cater for it now.
GOE are a very expensive option, mind you if LR did offer the offroad pack they would charge a lot more I reckon 😊

Richard

[Graeme]

I doubt the beancounters would have signed off on the R & D for a further variation with limited application.LR designed new 19" rims for the 2010-2012 Vogue to fit over the even bigger Brembo brakes. Hence I think that LR didn't want anyone to fit tyres with sidewalls taller than those of 19" tyres for steering response purposes trying to push the Disco more up-market that is was previously.

[Stuart02]

Anyone happen to know whether 18s can go on a 2010 RRS TDV8? It's got 20s at the moment... don't know if they're oversized tyres, but was surprised to see that the speedo is absolutely bang on at 110kph compared to the GPS.

I'd like to at least go 19s for AT options (did I see somewhere there's a 19" Duratrac now?).

[Stuart02]

There's quite a few 19" wheels on ebay claiming to be OEM RRS, but some of them are as narrow as 7.5? I thought I was looking for 19x9s... There's no way a 7.5 could take a 255 wide tyre, is there??

[Graeme]

255/55R19 on 9" rims stretch the sidewalls and expose them to rock damage whereas on 7.5" rims the sidewalls are more shielded by the tread. My brother is having the same difficulty having recently purchased a set of 19x9 RRS rims for his MY08 TDV8 RRS but will probably fit 285/50-20 to his 20" rims for sidewall protection and for slightly tougher tyres with their LI of 116. Cooper LTZ, Nitto Terra Grappler and Toyo OPAT are available in this size and load rating.

Edit: Tyrerack lists 255/55R19 as suitable for 7"-9" rims.

[discojools]

Hi Richard, I accept the D3/4 is marketed as a 4wd, but it is still a compromise. I would think the lower profile tyres on 18", 19" and up, are largely to benefit blacktop handling, and to allow the fitment of larger brakes. ( and the looks I guess )

It took Gordon ( GOE ) a fair bit of research, and some trial & error development, to finally lock down a suitable rim. They are a close fit, and while LR could undoubtedly have developed an 18" rim, they already had them from earlier models. I doubt the beancounters would have signed off on the R & D for a further variation with limited application.

Not sure on the Defender 110's but I believe the 130's can tow substantially more than a D4. I am sure someone on the forum can correct me.

Yes, I do seem to recall a post recently on a 19" LT becoming available. They will grow in numbers, as more and more vehicles use them. You only have to look at the availability of tyres in the 18" range compared to a couple of years ago. Used to be 2 or 3. Seem to be dozens now.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that a manufacturer will never exactly match their customer expectations. They would obviously try the match the majority ( customers or expectations ) to get the sales. Which is why the aftermarket does such a roaring trade, as individual owners customise their vehicles to better suit their own needs and requirements. In doing so these owners compromise the original manufacturer specifications, even if it is only in the $'s spent.

All that said, I still believe the D3/D4 is the best compromise in the market place.

All Landrovers and Range Rovers have towing capacity of 3500kg except Freelander and Evoque.

[Stuart02]

All Landrovers and Range Rovers have towing capacity of 3500kg except Freelander and Evoque.

It's just a payload thing. And I see my RRS 19 inch spare and 20 inch rims are rated on the low side at 880 kg.