Adaptor shaft

[Ancient Mariner]

This morning I visited a toolmaker machinist a German who has a very good reputation I showed him pictures of Grubs shaft complete+ modified versions:o also my spare shaft His comments, mine in brackets
Grubs Design No probs if 4340 should be nitrided and not thru hardened with misalignment being the probable cause either the case or the shaft not true
(I would rather see a more gentle transition from large to small diam and thru hardened ) My shaft again no probs but should be nitrided instead of thru hardened due to distortion I said my shaft has only .002"runout .He said but .002" is .002" (bloody Germans):D Any way he is going to work out a price for shaft and splined flange I don't think it will cheep but will be first class:p

Expressions of interest?

AM

[Vern]

YES Interesed!😊

[Vern]

AM, with yours, if the shaft breaks, do you have to remove the transcase to replace it?
And with the case not being true part, would all cases need to then be measured for true?

[steveG]

Tentatively - but depends on cost.

Thanks for taking the time to investigate AM - particularly since you don't have a need for them yourself.

Steve

[Ancient Mariner]

AM, with yours, if the shaft breaks, do you have to remove the transcase to replace it?
And with the case not being true part, would all cases need to then be measured for true?
Vern I believe there is one gear ratio that needs the intermediate gear dropped but not sure:confused: maybe someone can confirm and yes the housing will need to be checked:(

[Vern]

Yes thats 1.003, i have this, had to drop the transcase twice when trying to change my shaft

[Vern]

But i will be changing mine to a 1.222 when i get all this shaft stuff sorted

[Ancient Mariner]

Yes thats 1.003, i have this, had to drop the transcase twice when trying to change my shaft
Bugger! dats me too .I think if you slid the TC back about 80mm on some studs you could get enough movement to remove the gear but just guessing not that I will ever need to replace it:D:D

[Vern]

I had to move mine right back, stick the gear in the hole then refit the transcase. This i don't want to have to do again, particularly in the dirt at the beach

[workingonit]

Thanks AM for the info. You did not get his views on the Outcast shaft then?

I would be interested in a drive flange and several spare floating shafts, provided I can use it in the Outcast case. I Presume this will be possible. From memory Sheldons case was 175mm and Outcast is 173mm length.

My transfer case is 1.222.

For me the SAE10 spline would have to be long enough to accommodate the long spline input gear. I would think that if the floating shaft had the long spine then in would suit both long and short spline input gears.

I was hoping you might answer a few questions for me on the link below, but you have been busy elsewhere (gratefully). I have been emailing a machine shop in Brisbane for a quote but need to work out a few details in basic design, with them figuring out the finer details. He indicated a one off would be less than $1,000, but probably conventionly milled rather than CNC. But if a few were ordered then CNC would be the go and costs greatly reduced. I also advised the owner that given this is a national forum guys may choose to use someone in their own state. If we want to get costs down then we need to bump up the numbers and commit.

Your short hand sometimes leaves me asking more questions :). Your thread here seems to indicate that the shaft needs to be through hardened and cryo treated. That Damiens may have lacked the through hardening and along with possible misalignment caused failure.

Does your friend design casings as well - not sure some of you may have to look at this issue again - hope not.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90033-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230-57.html

PS my mans a South African, but still of the pedantic Germanic grouping.

[isuzurover]

Bugger! dats me too .I think if you slid the TC back about 80mm on some studs you could get enough movement to remove the gear but just guessing not that I will ever need to replace it:D:D

If your shaft had 10 splines on either end you could pull the shaft then drop the gear out...

[Vern]

Thats how i pictured doing it ben, just slide the whole shaft straight out, unless it gets a twist in it

[workingonit]

The SAE10 is approx 29mm diameter on the outside, while the oil seal on the shaft is bigger. Won't the oil seal area stop you pulling the shaft through the gear? Unless Ancients comment about a pressed oil seal ring relate to this issue?

Not having a 1.00 transfer case I am not familiar with why you cannot pull the input gear. Something to do with the gear spline cut?

[Ancient Mariner]

If your shaft had 10 splines on either end you could pull the shaft then drop the gear out...
The Isuzu spline was used for a few reasons 1/ its cut with an indexable tungsten insert where as the ten spline is cut with a tool steel form cutter and needs regular resharpening
2/ if the 10 spline breaks its going to break at the flange and probably be a bugger to remove the broken stub 3/ The bigger spline will have less problems with wear and lubrication 4/ I was as mentioned in a previous post going to use 2 isuzu flanges bolted back to back 5/ I have hated 10 spline shafts since my series 1 days:( Think 4 axles and 1 diff in 4 days:mad:

The oil seal is not std size and the gears wont pass with the shaft in position

[workingonit]

The isuzu spline looks to be SAE20 to me.

[Ancient Mariner]

The isuzu spline looks to be SAE20 to me.
I haf no idear:o

[workingonit]

Ancient. So did you get a second Isuzu flange and an old Isuzu MSA output shaft. Then mill the other end of the shaft down to SAE10?

[isuzurover]

The isuzu spline looks to be SAE20 to me.

where did you get that from? Last i checked SAE only went to 16 spline square form. The isuzu spline is at least 26 spline from the pic and looks to be involute form.

[workingonit]

From the serial number information my MSA5G looks to be made in 1989.

I counted 20 splines in the Isuzu drive flange itself. They seemed to resemble the square cut of the SAE standard. To the naked eye they do not look involute. I have a set of modulus 1 involute gear cutters.

But I will go out now and have a look at the actual output shaft itself incase I've mistaken something.

I did find reference to SAE20 on the web, mainly to do with very old mounting system for aeroplane props.

[workingonit]

It's half past one in the morning. I'll take it as both sets are involute, however, I have my suspicions.

I used a lens to look at the output shaft. The teeth do seem to have 'hips' as side, they look like involute.

As much as I would like to see involute in the input gear itself, the sides look flat, like the flat but sloped sides of a pyramid running to an almost flat top (assuming minor curvature left over from initial boring). I could very well be wrong. I will put a macro lens on and take some photos to post so others can judge.

Could they be running male involute inside female SAE style? Involute are easier to cut externally, but not as easily inside.

[workingonit]

Dang, forgot to count. Back out into the dark.

Definitely 20 splines on the output shaft that I have. Matching my original count on the drive flange.

One thing that gave me a 'heart attack' fiddling around out there was the realisation that the Discovery 1 splines on the input gear (many more than 20 and larger diameter) are different to the SAE10 in the RRC input gear. This seems to negate what I thought might be the need to allow for long spline input gears.

From memory earlier manual Disco 1's were stripping output shafts/input gears due to lack of lube. Later Disco 1's had cross drilled input gears with longer splines, requiring input shafts with longer splines to match.

This makes me wonder if the Disco 1 input gear from a 1.22 ( from memory I think that's what they are) will fit into the RRC transfer case 1.22. If that were possible then you could move away from SAE10 to a higher count longer spline set. I'll test that out tomorrow unless someone else before hand says it doesn't work.

[Ancient Mariner]

Ancient. So did you get a second Isuzu flange and an old Isuzu MSA output shaft. Then mill the other end of the shaft down to SAE10?
No !

[Vern]

AM, does your seal run on the shaft or the flange?

I was looking at pics of dougals shaft (one piece, slides over the msa main shaft), and if you could change the way you fit the seal (fit it from inside the box) then the shaft could be removed ( destroying the seal) and replace rather easily, but would require a new seal each time. Just a thought.

[Vern]

Dang, forgot to count. Back out into the dark.

Definitely 20 splines on the output shaft that I have. Matching my original count on the drive flange.

One thing that gave me a 'heart attack' fiddling around out there was the realisation that the Discovery 1 splines on the input gear (many more than 20 and larger diameter) are different to the SAE10 in the RRC input gear. This seems to negate what I thought might be the need to allow for long spline input gears.

From memory earlier manual Disco 1's were stripping output shafts/input gears due to lack of lube. Later Disco 1's had cross drilled input gears with longer splines, requiring input shafts with longer splines to match.

This makes me wonder if the Disco 1 input gear from a 1.22 ( from memory I think that's what they are) will fit into the RRC transfer case 1.22. If that were possible then you could move away from SAE10 to a higher count longer spline set. I'll test that out tomorrow unless someone else before hand says it doesn't work.
Got a pic of the fine spline input gear? Whats the t/case suffix number?

[workingonit]

OK, I've got it a*** about face re the Disco 1 input gear. They are SAE10. Forget my comment above.

The now remembered story.

Few years ago I was going to put a pto hydraulic pump on a late model DIsco 1. The late model Disco 1 had the long spline input gear SAE10. To my surprise when I took the pto cover off to install the pump, I found that LRover no longer cut the pto dog teeth on the end of the long spline input gear ie I could not drive the pump. The earlier short spine DIsco 1 did have the dog teeth on the input gear.

So I bought a long spline input gear with dog teeth from MRAutomotive. However, I never installed it.

Now comes the purchase of the RRC and the decision to convert it to the 4BD1T/MSA combo.

Throw the v8 and gearbox aside without much of a second thought.

Get the Outcast kit which is SAE10 long spline.

Pull out the input gear from the RRC transfer case and put it aside without a second look.

Shove in the MRAuto SAE10 long spline that I now had sitting on the shelf for a few years. Trial fit the Outcast kit. The fit seems fine and the transfer case revolves without trouble. Which seems to answer the question 'yes' you can fit what on the face of it is a 1997 Disco 1 1.22 input into a 1984 RRC 1.22 box.

Come last night I thought I'd refresh my memory as to what a female SAE10 looks like so I grabbed the input gear that was originally in the RRC transfer case. When I examined the spines I thought these are not SAE10 and way too large a diameter for the Outcast SAE10.

So my original RRC transfer case did not come with an SAE10 input gear. I'll put up a photo in a second.

[Ancient Mariner]

Borgwarner?

[workingonit]

Not going to answer your questions until you answer mine :)

Don't worry photo just on the horizon - just got to test Incisors insistence for a photo bucket which I don't have.

[Ancient Mariner]

Not going to answer your questions until you answer mine :)

Don't worry photo just on the horizon - just got to test Incisors insistence for a photo bucket which I don't have.
So be it

[workingonit]

AM, I'll let you answer your own question, in writing here of course :D

89493

89494

89495

89496

The inside of the MSA drive flange - involute anyone?

89497

[Vern]

OK, I've got it a*** about face re the Disco 1 input gear. They are SAE10. Forget my comment above.

The now remembered story.

Few years ago I was going to put a pto hydraulic pump on a late model DIsco 1. The late model Disco 1 had the long spline input gear SAE10. To my surprise when I took the pto cover off to install the pump, I found that LRover no longer cut the pto dog teeth on the end of the long spline input gear ie I could not drive the pump. The earlier short spine DIsco 1 did have the dog teeth on the input gear.

So I bought a long spline input gear with dog teeth from MRAutomotive. However, I never installed it.

Now comes the purchase of the RRC and the decision to convert it to the 4BD1T/MSA combo.

Throw the v8 and gearbox aside without much of a second thought.

Get the Outcast kit which is SAE10 long spline.

Pull out the input gear from the RRC transfer case and put it aside without a second look.

Shove in the MRAuto SAE10 long spline that I now had sitting on the shelf for a few years. Trial fit the Outcast kit. The fit seems fine and the transfer case revolves without trouble. Which seems to answer the question 'yes' you can fit what on the face of it is a 1997 Disco 1 1.22 input into a 1984 RRC 1.22 box.

Come last night I thought I'd refresh my memory as to what a female SAE10 looks like so I grabbed the input gear that was originally in the RRC transfer case. When I examined the spines I thought these are not SAE10 and way too large a diameter for the Outcast SAE10.

So my original RRC transfer case did not come with an SAE10 input gear. I'll put up a photo in a second.
Yeah i knew that workingonit, was just testing you. There is a 26 and 28tooth input gear. And from memory the earlier non crossdrilled gear had wider bearing spacing or narrower cut gears or something like that.

[Vern]

Plus, input gear is on backwards, dog teeth to the back.😊

[workingonit]

Vern, well spotted - only realised after posting it - 10 points. How're the kids?

Here are some photos of the Outcast shaft for and aft (for Ancient :D) of the transfer case.

Pretty much all the oil seal landing is used. The shaft is no where near knocking the pto cover plate.


89498

89499

Here my finger points to the approx depth of the clearance machined into the back of the adaptor, to allow for the protrusion of the MSA output shaft. Not much meat left for splines on a floating shaft as a two piece. Yet looking at Ancient's photos he seems to have substantial shaft.

89500

89501

Leads me to question - did Ancient recess his oil seal further in so his drive flange could protrude more into the t/c to get the extra spline length - or is Ancient's case a different length to the Outcast/Sheldon set up which I thought were much the same length by a couple of mm. Without any measurements for Ancients floating shaft it is hard to determine.

[Vern]

My shaft sits in the input gear about the same distance.
As for the kid, he's much better thanks, stopped pooping blood which is good☺

[workingonit]

Just found an early comment on the Isuzu to LT230 thread indicating Grubbs case length at 180mm. Outcast is 173mm.

The difference of 7mm may be the make or break of a floating shaft for the Outcast case, meaning I may not be able to join you in buying one. Will keep reviewing the rest of the thread to see if the size of Sheldons case stayed 180.

Would still be interested if someone could measure the overall length of Sheldons adapter shaft.

Now on page 117 the length is quoted as 175mm.

The thread indicates that some people were going to adapt their MSA to the LRover engine bell housing. Mine is all NPR truck. Were there different lengths of Sheldon adaptor casing depending on whether you were all truck or adapted to LRover bell housing - can't see detail regarding this so far in the thread and may have been a detail sorted in personal emails.

Vern, is yours all NPK truck or LRover bellhousing?

Back to reading...

[isuzurover]

The inside of the MSA drive flange - involute anyone?

89497

Looks involute, 30o pressure angle to me.

square splines are an inferior design. I can't see why Isuzu would use them as they seem to consistently demonstrate good engineering practice.

[workingonit]

Finished reading. Nothing more to add in that regard.

I've muddied enough water. Asked enough questions.

[workingonit]

Had a thought.

Make a simple full length shaft, fully SAE10. No oil seal landing. In fact the shaft could be over length and cut back by those with different length cases. Maybe slightly waisted to create a failure point where you want it.

Transfer the oil seal landing to the adaptor drive flange.

Drill the adaptor drive flange to take the simple SAE10 shaft. The spline hole can be straight through but plated later to stop oil leaks and stop the shaft bumping the MSA drive shaft.

So attach your adaptor drive flange to the MSA drive flange.

Put on your case.

Insert your simple shaft.

Followed by the input gear if your a 1.22.

Given the drive shaft does not reach the pto cover, and to stop it floating to the pto cover, bung some obstruction into the space that is easily removed later.

You could use a draw bar to secure the shaft but what to do if the bolt breaks with the shaft? Can't get the last bit of bolt out to put in new shaft so back to removing whole transfer case.

Issues. Oil lubrication. Whether the adaptor drive flange at the oil seal area will be thick enough, my calcs showing about 6mm wall thickness.

[workingonit]

Sketch with simple shaft as described previously but showing some other thoughts quickly discarded.

89505

[isuzurover]

Sketch with simple shaft as described previously but showing some other thoughts quickly discarded.

89505

A simpler option would be for the flange not to be drilled through - leave a dead end and a small oil 'well'. Then you have a free/floating shaft. Attach a block of brass to the pto cover so it can only move a few mm each way. The brass block can be designed to double as an oil feeder and the shaft movement will help lubrication.

Plenty of full floating axles allow the shaft to float like this.

[workingonit]

I did think not drilled through would be better, but may be a more costly proposition.

I did think of some rub point on the pto cover. Anything attached to the pto cover would have to reach deep into the hole to reach the end of the shaft - see my photo and Verns confirmation of where his shaft ends. Of course make the transfer case input side of the shaft very much longer to reach the pto cover.

I wondered about a welch plug type of thing, of light metal, but with holes to allow oil flow. I'm sure a simple easily removed but stay put in rotation solution could be found.

I think an oil feeder would always be useful.

Main concern is would the oil ring landing area be strong enough given it is now hollow.

[Mocky]

Hi Workingonit

Why don't you do some real world testing with the Outcast adapter you already have. It has been stated that the shaft has been trailed, been removed several times for checking and has been found to be ok.
We have all spent a lot of money to run these Isuzu transmissions and for some of us that have Sheldons adaptor's we now know there are issues.
If it was me with the Outcast adapter I would be out doing some extreme testing not too far from home, then you would know for sure if you have something to worry about.

Mocky.

[Vern]

Had a thought.

Make a simple full length shaft, fully SAE10. No oil seal landing. In fact the shaft could be over length and cut back by those with different length cases. Maybe slightly waisted to create a failure point where you want it.

Transfer the oil seal landing to the adaptor drive flange.

Drill the adaptor drive flange to take the simple SAE10 shaft. The spline hole can be straight through but plated later to stop oil leaks and stop the shaft bumping the MSA drive shaft.

So attach your adaptor drive flange to the MSA drive flange.

Put on your case.

Insert your simple shaft.

Followed by the input gear if your a 1.22.

Given the drive shaft does not reach the pto cover, and to stop it floating to the pto cover, bung some obstruction into the space that is easily removed later.

You could use a draw bar to secure the shaft but what to do if the bolt breaks with the shaft? Can't get the last bit of bolt out to put in new shaft so back to removing whole transfer case.

Issues. Oil lubrication. Whether the adaptor drive flange at the oil seal area will be thick enough, my calcs showing about 6mm wall thickness.
This is what i have been saying from the start

[Vern]

Workingonit, going back to your last shaft drawing, if you were to cut the flange off where the 0 on sae10 is, do an internal spline all the way back to the msa flange and cap the end off, install a 1 shot grease or something, then for the shaft, make a shaft as per the rest of your drawing but with the oil seal ring on it.
I think this would work ok. Only problem i can see is oiling the adapter splines

[workingonit]

Yep, agree.

Post 11 Isuzu defined it clearly for me and in 12 you confirmed that was what you wanted..

Post 14 Ancient argued against it. And I agree with my limited knowledge.

From that point on I felt Ancients design was the primary focus.

So I then started to look at how I could fit Ancients design into my Outcast casing.

That is when I began to think I do not have room to develop the drive flange spline. What to do?

Given the Outcast is the only unit from which I can draw real data I came up with my drawing.

I'm happy to claim you and Isuzu as my muses :D :o

[workingonit]

As said elsewhere I'm not proposing to rework my Outcast shaft. I am going to run with it.

But seeing the unfortunate situation you were in really forced home the point to me that this is no off the shelf spare and I better consider doing something about it.

If a straight SAE10 could be made to stand up to the strains then I would go as you originally said, but buy myself a few floating shafts instead of just one.

Ancient has got the ball rolling. It would again be appreciated by us all if Ancient could pass the SAE10 idea to his friend for comment.

I have also started discussion with a machinist in Brisbane. I may also try and talk to Greg at Outcast to see if he will tell me the name of his axle manufacturer - but I must convince him that I am not trying to side step him and have Outcast adapter made with out his permission.

As said earlier I need some professional advice on whether the 6mm wall will hold up.

[workingonit]

Sorry Mockey, yes I would love to do some real world testing, but that is probably 6 months away. And yes my plan will be to load the vehicle and give it a hard work out locally. Still would like a replacement of some sort though.

I could send it to Vern but I may never see it again :)

[Vern]

Agree, i am trying to take this design to sheldon, but as per, he is uncontactable, will just keep trying, but may have to address it myself.

[Vern]

And neither may mocky😆

[workingonit]

Sorry Vern, re post 43, I don't follow. I understand where you want to cut, on the MSA side of the oil seal landing. But you lose me a bit after that.

Just to be clear my diagram is representative of the Outcast shaft only - no drawing of the MSA flange.

Keep in mind as per my earlier photos the MSA drive shaft protrudes into a bell chamber carved into the back of the Outcast adaptor shaft, with only bout 3 or 4 mm clearance.

Is it better to throw away all drive flanges and make just 1 adaptor shaft, involute for the MSA drive shaft and SAE10 for the input gear (probably like the 'late' Dougals). Myself not keen to subject the MSA shaft to sliding wear etc. As it is currently set up, the drive flange gets very well anchored under the torque applied to the lock nut.

When you get home please measure the overall length of the Sheldon adaptor shaft - that would be very helpful.

All the best to your family.

[Vern]

Ok. So for the flange, cut it at the msa side of the transcase seal then put an internal spline in, sae10 or what ever.
Then make a sae10 shaft with an transcase oil seal surface ring on it.
Dig?

[slug_burner]

Why not just make a shaft that mates to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft at one end (female spline) and the LT230 input gear at the other end. Like the spud shaft used on the ZF auto to the LT230. Given the back of the Isuzu box is sealed then you should not need an oil seal between the adapting case and the LT230, you should be able to run the adapter case wet with the LT230 gear oil. Might still require one shot lube in the female splines of the adapter shaft as I don't see enough oil making its way to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft, even if oil holes are put into the adapter shaft like that used on the LT230 input gear.

[Vern]

I mentioned this in post 23, had no takers though.
Dougal runs this on his box, no idea how he lubes it though. It does sound the easiest providing you can lube those splines. But if you break the shaft, transcase has to come off.

[steveG]

Why not just make a shaft that mates to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft at one end (female spline) and the LT230 input gear at the other end. Like the spud shaft used on the ZF auto to the LT230. Given the back of the Isuzu box is sealed then you should not need an oil seal between the adapting case and the LT230, you should be able to run the adapter case wet with the LT230 gear oil. Might still require one shot lube in the female splines of the adapter shaft as I don't see enough oil making its way to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft, even if oil holes are put into the adapter shaft like that used on the LT230 input gear.

The Isuzu box relies on the output flange and nut to clamp the rear bearing on the mainshaft. Dougal has a setup like you are suggesting and has reworked it: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/148712-85-classic-5.html#post2000130

Steve

[slug_burner]

I mentioned this in post 23, had no takers though.
Dougal runs this on his box, no idea how he lubes it though. It does sound the easiest providing you can lube those splines. But if you break the shaft, transcase has to come off.

Why? Without an oil seal between the LT230 and the adapter case you should be able to pull it all out through the transfer case. And apart from your adapter shaft how many other shafts have broken, the axles see three times the torque and don't break (well most don't).

[slug_burner]

The Isuzu box relies on the output flange and nut to clamp the rear bearing on the mainshaft. Dougal has a setup like you are suggesting and has reworked it: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/148712-85-classic-5.html#post2000130

Steve

Thanks for that steveG, just goes to show that I don't have an Isuzu gearbox. In that case I'd go with Ancient Mariners configuration, Dougal's looks like a lot of mucking around with the hollow splined shafts and fasteners.

[steveG]

I've read through all this a couple of times, but must be missing something.

Is there a perceived issue with AM's flange/shaft design that is trying to be solved?

Steve

[isuzurover]

I've read through all this a couple of times, but must be missing something.

Is there a perceived issue with AM's flange/shaft design that is trying to be solved?

Steve

Not really. However i think the inner splines are unlubricated.

[slug_burner]

I've read through all this a couple of times, but must be missing something.

Is there a perceived issue with AM's flange/shaft design that is trying to be solved?

Steve

I was only trying to reduce the need for the use of two flanges and 4 lots of nuts and bolts to hold them together and the amount of machining that has to be done to cut the extra pair of mating splines. Given what you pointed out with the link to Dougal's configuration (which I note also has a bearing at the LT230 interface) I would be happy to run with AM's configuration.

[Sitec]

Hi all.. Not sure if its even relevant, but I noticed this thread for the first time this eve, and having adapted a truck gearbox to the LT230, I went about it a different way.. Having watched slim spud shafts fail, I thought I'd try the welded gear approach.. Yes the weld will be weaker than a solid one piece shaft, but, if its a larger diameter shaft it will withstand more torque.. I have welded the old output shaft flange (turned down to remove prop face) to the input gear of an LT230. Here it is pictured. There were a lot of doubters, but that was 15000kms ago and the engine and box that are in front of my LT230 is a 200hp 5.9 litre Cummins 6bt and ZF5-42 gearbox. The whole lot is in my 101 and has copped a flogging since day 1! A guy in the UK has taken on my plate design and welded gear setup and is now producing kits. One of the kit users is pumping 400hp thru that welded gear..... Just an option that might be usable in your application... Cheers.

[workingonit]

Thanks Sitec.

I assume the splines were part of the original sliding yolk. Did you machine the flange down to a disk that fitted inside the gear end before welding? Does your 'apprentice' :) have a web site?

[workingonit]

Vern, I think I get it now.

Unfortunately it takes me back to what I was originally concerned about. If I follow what I think your suggesting the amount of spline on the MSA side is maybe too short (30ish mm) when compared to what Ancient seems to have achieved which is probably about 50-60mm.

Thats why I wondered if Ancients case was wider than mine and maybe yours, or whether he shifted his oil seal to shift the seal landing and get more MSA side spline.

Its great that Ancient has put his example up, and everyone goes great (and it is) but measure it (sorry - measure yours), compare it to what you guys can fit.

I decided to go through the oil seal landing to increase the amount of spline on the MSA side. And incorporate the oil seal landing into the flange to strengthen the female tube. I'll do some more drawings to illustrate if I understand your idea.

[workingonit]

Slug burner is saying basically what I gestured before - abandon the two drive flanges and make a one piece shaft involute on the MSA and SAE10 on the input gear.

Dougal followed this course if I understood his 'cloak-ed' ways - he didn't want to make it too easy (wants us to think :)). Trouble is Dougal EDMed the internal splines (or previous owner?) and it didn't go straight if I remember - it was holding up but not really the best.

Vern, I don't think the one piece shaft suggested by slug burner is a bad idea, but may be difficult - and I think you would have to have a thread in the MSA shaft to take the draw bolt, just like the ZF auto - the link to Dougals shows it. And if you did break the bolt then you're faced with trying to extract the bolt - transfer case of again time (you'll become very proficient :))

Steve G, I have my flange and nut off the MSA output shaft and the shaft seems rock solid. Unless our boxes are a little different I'm not sure the flange/nut is necessary to tighten the bearing - if I understand correct.

[workingonit]

As my muses have said (Vern and Isuzu Rover) :), the idea is have a system that is easily fixed in the field if worst comes to worse.

Unbolt the pto cover - pull the gear - pull the two broken pieces - insert new and close up.

[workingonit]

Just looked closer at Dougals.

Looks like he has threaded a small shaft onto the MSA output shaft. Then slid over it the long main shaft that links the MSA and t/c input gear. The long shaft is held in place by a draw bar that secures to the short shaft now enclosed.

It is the long main shaft I think that gave the problem when EDMed?

One assumes the long main shaft is strong enough over the 'unsupported' mid area - Dougal didn't break it through out his thread discussions.

Nice solution.

But if the long main shaft breaks and the draw bolt breaks with it then its t/c off again I think.

[Vern]

Why not just make a shaft that mates to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft at one end (female spline) and the LT230 input gear at the other end. Like the spud shaft used on the ZF auto to the LT230. Given the back of the Isuzu box is sealed then you should not need an oil seal between the adapting case and the LT230, you should be able to run the adapter case wet with the LT230 gear oil. Might still require one shot lube in the female splines of the adapter shaft as I don't see enough oil making its way to the Isuzu gearbox output shaft, even if oil holes are put into the adapter shaft like that used on the LT230 input gear.
you would need to run an oil drain line back as the adapter housing has the possibility to fill up with all the transcase oil.

[Sitec]

Thanks Sitec.

I assume the splines were part of the original sliding yolk. Did you machine the flange down to a disk that fitted inside the gear end before welding? Does your 'apprentice' :) have a web site?

Yeah, the splines were part of the original ZF output flange. I had the splines of the LT230 input gear machined out so I was able to put a tube nut up the guts of the gear and still be able to preload the main shaft of the gearbox. It just took a bit of shimming to get the gear in the right place for the LT230 tho! This was my technical drawing!! For Cummins Zf5-42 to LT230, you now need to talk to Reece Myres and Nick Steggle in The Cummins LandRover Group on Facebook.. :D

[Sitec]

Here's a link to my conversion, and in it Nick has put a link to the Facebook group where you'll find Reece who now manufactures my kit. :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/184042-zf-s5-42-lt-230-a.html

[workingonit]

Busy reading your thread sitec...


Minor point. Assume the decision was to go with a fully floating simple shaft.

To hold it in place maybe two detent ball bearings could be installed into the end of the shaft closest to the pto cover.

The input gear would be given a light machining to create the retaining groove.

Make sure the pto end of the shaft has a thread so you can insert a long bolt to draw it out and overcome any detent resistance.

[Vern]

I was going to do this sitec to a turbo700 to lt230 adaptation, haven't started it yet, but i didn't even think about it for my situation over the last week.
When i get home, and strip the transcase and gearbox out, i will measure it up to do this.
Without reading your thread (on holidays to busy relaxing) how do you lube the gearbox output splines?

[workingonit]

Something in sitecs thread requires some clarification, as it relates to the idea of a floating shaft talked about here.

Assuming we are using the one piece Sheldon/Outcast shaft and casing for example.

When the gearbox/adaptor/transfer case are all assembled and tightened up how much force does the shaft exert on the input gear and its bearings - static load if that's the correct term. In other words what role does the shaft play in tightenting and reducing things like end play etc. Or is it up to the rear bearing carrier (and shims?) that lie just under the pto cover.

In other words if we have a 'floating' shaft - involute MSA side SAE10 t/c side and an included oil seal landing will there be no pressure from the actual flange to the input gear. Consequently sloppy input gear movement?

I assume if this is important then Ancient factored it into his design given it appears to have served him well.

[Vern]

Sloppy input gear? How, it has taper bearings either end and is retained by the pto cover ring.

[workingonit]

Given my t/c is sitting on the floor I went and wiggled the input gear. There is slight 'freedom'. Push the Outcast shaft in with a little pressure some of the 'freedom' is reduced.

Keep in in mind the centre shaft in the t/c uses a crush tube (oft descibed as no better than a toilet roll centre) to load the bearings if I understand correctly. So loading is not unimportant. But then maybe it is only the centre that requires it? I'm novice at this.

On the Outcast adaptor shaft the SAE10 flutes chamfer as they finish. The Outcast shaft also has a 'nose' between the spline ends and the oil seal landing. The 'nose' seems to have the same slop as the 'face' just inside the input gear. Does the 'nose' on the shaft put pressure on the 'face' in the input gear to tighten up end float. I can't tell without cutting the input gear in half longitudinally.

Sheldons shafts seem to me to be designed for the short spline input gear, and hence the abrupt end to the splines, no need for chamfering at that point. Just before the oil seal landing Sheldon has a 'nose' similar to that on my Outcast. From the photo it is hard to tell if it is a radius or a straight edge. Mine is a straight edge and would seem to, as said above, have the same angle as the 'face' in the input gear. If Sheldons was a sharp radius, and my guess about this point has any merit, then Sheldons unit would have lost some friction drive advantage and been a weakness, hence your break. Again I'm approaching this as a novice, but I see possible issues when I compare one manufacturers methods with another.

To me its one of the many tech issues that might need answering. It could be totally irrelevant.

Despite the superiority of a two piece set up, I'm beginning to think more and more that I should just buy another Outcast shaft as spare. I think when you get the time you should do some detailed measurements of the Sheldon shaft to see if an Outcast will fit - two or three weeks waiting and problem possibly solved - we could buy them together and maybe save some coin for your NT trip. Although you still have to determine your case is not out of wack.

Unless Ancient saves the day I feel this is just going to go around and around.

[Vern]

Its not going anywhere! I am on holidays, in tassie, without a tape measure, and will start caring about it when i get home and dismantle it.
Now back to my holiday😊

[workingonit]

Agree!

[Sitec]

Without reading your thread (on holidays to busy relaxing) how do you lube the gearbox output splines?

You don't.. The original prop shaft output flange and fixing nut were what gave the gearbox top shaft its pre load. Having machined the bulk of the original output flange down to 50 mm (the width of the area that the seal runs on) forming a tube of 50mm O/D with the spline to suit the ZF box and also the nut locking face, the LT230 input gear is then machined to have a flat face on its I put side (getting rid of the lead in taper). At this point, the internal drive splines are machined out. A support boss is then made and the two pieces are bolted together and put in a lathe. A 'Vee' is machined to accept a tig weld joining the two pieces together. The weld is machined back to 2" to carry the bearing and also tapered down to 50mm to match the ZF seal face. This gear was then fitted to the Transfercase and pre loaded correctly. The output nose was then measured and the measurement compared to the required amount to preload the gearbox. In my case a 10.1mm spacer was required to clamp between the modified gear and the rear gearbox bearing. The Transfercase is then fitted to the gearbox and tightened including the 10.1mm spacer. Once tight, a tube nut is inserted into the rear of the Transfercase (which also has an 'O' ring to stop oil transfer), screwed onto the output shaft of the gearbox and tightened to the original torque of the ZF box. I tightened mine up with the transfer case still empty and was able to reach in thru the bottom hole and turn the preloaded gear by hand, so I know I had it right. Here's the tube nut.

[Sitec]

And here's the gear protruding from the LT230 box. A seal is available that suits the Lt casing and also has a 50mm center dia.

[Sitec]

And here is a shot of it all bolted up from underneath. Sandwiched between the extended sump and the LT casing is a piece of 3mm plate with a pair of 100mm holes to allow oil to flow around whilst stopping the case from spreading with the 600nm of torque!

[workingonit]

Thanks sitec. How do you measure your preload for the input gear - a torque tool of some kind?

[workingonit]

To scale drawing.

Point 'A' - fragile entry - if it doesn't play any role putting pressure on input gear then it could be reduced to thicken lip entry - or removed altogether.

Point 'B' - the flange could be thickened as per dotted line.

Drawing 2 shows reduced length of spline on MSA side of oil seal landing, if attempting to keep oil seal landing on the shaft instead of flange. Compare how much more spline Ancient has in his example.

Also looked at the input gear SAE10 and the 30 tooth involute(?) input gear from the v8 gearbox. Seems like plenty of wall thickness available in the SAE10 to actually machine out the SAE10 and convert it to 30 spline. Not sure yet if this would work as a simple shaft.

If you could increase the diameter of the oil seal landing and find a seal to suit then you could go for a larger diameter floating shaft and better spline type provided you are prepared to mill the input gear?

89557

[Vern]

You're second drawing was what i was trying to explain to you.

[workingonit]

That's what I understood after a bit more clarifiction from you - although I'd already thought it through before that - just didn't understand we were thinking about the same thing.

The point though, if that approach were taken you cannot develop enough spline on the left side, at least when you compare it to Ancients.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90033-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230-51.html

That's why I abandoned the approach and improved spline length by going through the oil seal landing. Issue being is there enough strength in a drive flange in example 1.

If you could keep the oil seal landing on the floating shaft that would aid in limiting the movement of the shaft - no banging the drive flange down hill and the pto cover going up hill as would be the case with a simple floating shaft - hence for the simple shaft either a ball bearing detent or a 'c' clip retainer, or something else.

This Oz site has a nice line up of information regarding heat treatments etc. Just going through it myself.

Heat Treatment Australia - offers a variety of treatments including, hardening & tempering, carbo nitriding, cryotemp, aluminium treatments, annealing, carburising. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Australia (http://www.heat.com.au/treatments.php)

So what have you seen of Tass today? Kids recovered - if they're fighting that's a good sign :).

[isuzurover]

...

This Oz site has a nice line up of information regarding heat treatments etc. Just going through it myself.

Heat Treatment Australia - offers a variety of treatments including, hardening & tempering, carbo nitriding, cryotemp, aluminium treatments, annealing, carburising. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Australia (http://www.heat.com.au/treatments.php)

.

On a related topic, I note in a couple of posts you have mentioned cryo treatment [a current fad with little scientific study] - and outcast use it on their shaft.



Materials Science and Technology Conference and Exhibition 2012, MS and T 2012
Volume 2, 2012, Pages 1102-1113
Materials Science and Technology Conference and Exhibition 2012, MS and T 2012; Pittsburgh, PA; United States; 7 October 2012 through 11 October 2012; Code 96346
The effect of cryogenic treatment on 4X40 steels (Conference Paper)

Hespos, M.R.a, Mulligan, C.P.b

a U.S. Army - ARDEC, Advanced Materials Technology Branch, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ, United States
b U.S. Army - ARDEC, Benet Laboratories, Watervliet Arsenal, NY, United States
View references (9)
Abstract

The effect of cryogenic treatment on 4X40 series steel was studied. The study included chemistry, microstructure, microhardness, tensile, fracture toughness, fatigue crack propagation, x-ray diffraction for retained austenite and tribological testing. Credible, independent test data about the effects of cryogenic treatment on 4X40 series steels is lacking. The test results show that cryogenic treatment offers no significant benefit on the properties of 4X40 steels. A smaller test regimen, focused on tribological testing of carbo-nitrided 1018 steel, found a reduction in coefficient of friction from 0.54 to 0.45 and a reduction in wear rate by 30% were recorded.
Author keywords

4140 steel; 4340 steel; Case hardened steel; Cryogenic treatment; Mechanical properties; Wear properties

The studies I can find which have found benefits from cryo treatment are all on tool steels and/or cutting equipment for machining. I can't find a study that suggests cryo treatment offers any benefits for axles or similar components.

[workingonit]

Isuzurover, your comments take me back to what I said somewhere (can't find it) that Ancients design is good, but not perfect if the shafts are made in dribbs and drabs by different manufacturers with their own views on what metal treatments should apply. Even Ancient had different view to his German friend. Those that won't buy until our very bespoke/uncommon designs are proved will miss the boat on a bulk buy, then wait years for us to field test to satisfaction, then find they can't afford a one off of a proved design, or cut corners to get one with varying results.

It does seem cryogenic treatment is valid for increased wear resistance and it is good for tool steel and maybe axles, stub shafts and drive flange splines in that respect - the process does affect the full thickness of the material in question - but whether it should be considered as a process that strengthens the internal material as well seems to be the argument. Outcast say theirs is cryotreated. My assumption is for strength - but it may well be for improving spline wear. I am hoping Outcast will give me the name of their axle manufacturer so I can get closer to the source. But if the axle manufacturer relies on outside expertise then I will have to follow that line up. Just hope Ancient comes back with something and I'll drop my research like a hot stone as it is very very time consuming.

To me the steps/issues are:
- finding a design that won't break; that is field serviceable; that fits current casings
- determining the the alloy, treatment processes etc
- finding a cost effective manufacturer
- getting the interested parties to commit

We should have a staged process of debate. Design first. That's why I have asked questions about end float, input bearing loading etc and produced some sketches, having doubts about whether Ancients design would fit mine or Sheldon style casings etc, and started talking to people in those fields. My mistake for talking early on treatments here and there in simply describing what treatments manufacturers are claiming to have done - not a debate I can argue on at the moment.

My link to heat treatment australia was there so that we can get a better understanding in the mean time - but maybe I should store these away until we get to the 'treament stage' of this thread :)

[workingonit]

Maybe we could get something made out of balsa wood...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/models-dioramas/214040-model-makers.html

[Vern]

Maybe we could get something made out of balsa wood...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/models-dioramas/214040-model-makers.html
It seems mine already is😆😆😆😆.

As for cryo, Keith cryo'd my cv's, standard gkn aeu2522's, said he was getting good results from them.

[workingonit]

You were always a trend setter :p

Good. But as Isuzurover asks - cryo to what effect - surface hardening or through hardening and possible extra strength?

Are you back under the doona texting...night life in Tassie too boring...shouldn't you be eating cray fish bysubdued light on some seaside wharf?

[isuzurover]

...

As for cryo, Keith cryo'd my cv's, standard gkn aeu2522's, said he was getting good results from them.

Yes, however I doubt he did any rigorous scientific testing on them...

[Vern]

Yes, however I doubt he did any rigorous scientific testing on them...
Agree, was it you who had similar dealings as i did with him?

[Vern]

You were always a trend setter [emoji14]

Good. But as Isuzurover asks - cryo to what effect - surface hardening or through hardening and possible extra strength?

Are you back under the doona texting...night life in Tassie too boring...shouldn't you be eating cray fish bysubdued light on some seaside wharf?
Somewhere like this? No crayfish, but prawns, scallops, and calamari

[Vern]

Hmm sideways pic

[workingonit]

You are closer to the bottom of the world so it makes sense to me.

[workingonit]

89585

Forgot to label the diagram - left to right - oil hole without seal 60mm approx, SAE10 input gear 30 mm approx, 30 spline involute gear from v8 gearbox 33mm approx.

Assuming you want to keep this as a simple floating shaft that can be extracted from 1.00 and other boxes.

To go larger than SAE10 then you either need to find a larger diameter oil seal or remove the oil seal altogether and fill your adaptor case with oil (how leaky are the Sheldon cases?) If you ditch the oil seal you can now move away from the first restriction, that of the oil seal landing size as it currently stands.

If you want to go stronger than SAE10, then by example go 30 involute as per my gearbox behind the v8. Have the SAE10 splines in your input gear milled out and replaced by 30 involute.

Want to go bigger? Then you are only limited by the amount of thickness you dare take off the wall of the input gear body.

It seems a hole is drilled 'half way' into the gear. The hole is much larger than the hole required for the splines. I assume the oversized hole is for tool holder clearance (just a guess - don't flame me!) - ie the oversized holes are 39mm and 38mm on the sketch.

Your next limitation is the hole for the oil seal. You could easily go up to 58mm, by which time you will have milled your gear completely away :D :o

The figure of 52mm is the outside diameter, measured where the lube holes are drilled. I have not checked if any part of the gear is thinner elsewhere along its length.

[workingonit]

Just off the phone to Greg at Outcast.

He does not have the length of Sheldon's adaptor to hand, but he believes the Outcast unit should fit a Sheldon case.

I mentioned elsewhere, as an example for you, one of his customers with an Outcast adaptor kit behind a high powered twin turbo 4bd1t without breaking it. This customer also has another RRC but with a Sheldon kit. The case has been rewelded. The customer has approached Greg with the idea of replacing the Sheldon shaft with an Outcast shaft.

I am going to order another for myself as a backup when the other order comes in. Milling a few is cheaper than trying to get one offs.

Any other takers?

Other bits of info from Greg about their decision making processes:
- Marks adaptors at one stage tried a two piece unit for the Hilux, but it kept breaking, so went back to the one piece
- the internal spline cutting required in a two piece adds significantly to the cost

On Greg's suggestion I have just talked to Barry at Hi-tough (no website). Barry is happy to look at the two piece idea and give some comment, but it will be several weeks as he is snowed under with work. I'm emailing the drawing of the simple SAE10 floating shaft going through the oil seal landing - see above somewhere.

[Vern]

Reading that, my adapter housing my not be true, will strip it and measure it when i get home.
I do however like the idea of not having to remove the transcase though it it breaks again.
I wish i could remember how my lt95 adapter was done, that didn't break with a holden stroker and 6.5 litre chev diesel

[workingonit]

Here's some metal mangling that looks interesting now you mention the lt95 and chev in the same breath.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/modified-zone/197561-fitting-lt95-transfercase-700r4-trans.html

You still have the 6.5 and plans for it?

[Vern]

Sold that big heavy hunk of junk years ago, seen the light now with the isuzu.
Although off idle torque was amazing and it sounded so awesome, but that was it

[Vern]

My conversion was a Rovercentre conversion, it was really well done, so simple

[Vern]

Adapter shaft length is 194mm

[workingonit]

See post 38 for a scale drawing of the Outcast unit which has an over all length of 184. I measured the shaft by placing it on its pointy end (the SAE10 end) on a flat surface. I did not measure it while the shaft was lying on its side.

Need to work out where your 10mm difference is.

The oil seal landing is the point likely to be common to both shafts. The oil seal landing on the Outcast is 28mm long (not the diameter).

From the MSA side of the oil seal landing to the input gear end of the shaft the distance is 130mm - the 'right side'

From the MSA side of the oil seal landing to the mating face of the drive flange is 54mm - the 'left side'.

[Vern]

I measured it with a calibrated vertical vernier.

[workingonit]

My verniers are just the typical tool shop type, so the jaws will not reach the radius depth on this shaft when attempting to measure the long axis. That's why I placed it nose down on a flat surface and then used a tape to measure from flat surface to rear most on drive flange.

I'm sure you know how to take a measure, but some people will just do a diagonal measurement instead of parallel, then claim 'its the length'.

On the othe hand lets hope you did a diagonal and we can get rid of the 10mm :D

Guess you're still unpacking and unwinding.

[workingonit]

Something to look at in your leisure. I've added three dimensions to this previous post so you have a better idea of what I was talking about earlier. Know you prefer not to go this route, but at least its an option if nothing else goes ahead.

89661

[Vern]

Measured it up, was 193 actually.
Spline 69mm
Shaft between spline and seal surface 37mm
Seal surface 40mm
Tapered part down to flange 28mm
Flange 19mm.
This help anyone?

[workingonit]

Yours in dark pencil (incase I need to redraw)

Other critical measurement is length of the adaptor case - Outcast 173 - Sheldon 175? 180?

89670

[Dervish]

I just thought I'd throw this in for interest's sake. Here's Land Rover's solution to the problem - the spud shaft found between the MT82 and the LT230 in Puma Defenders. I think it was Ben that was describing this shaft earlier, but I had the chance to take pictures of one today so I thought I'd put them up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/817.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/815.jpg

The shaft is rotationally very tight when engaged into the LT230, but the opposite end of the shaft is still able to be wiggled around. This shaft also has nice wide radii on transitions of shaft diameter.

[Vern]

But in reality isn't much different to my one

[steveG]

Dervish - did you happen to measure the shaft length?
If the length were suitable it might be possible to use one and only have to make a custom splined flange for the gearbox end.

Steve

[workingonit]

Just out of curiosity, why is it out? Fretting un-lubed splines?

As Vern indicates, not field fixable. And steveG is heading in the right direction, but please refer to my previous diagrams - if the Sheldon case is very close in size to the Outcast then you may not be able to develop enough spline length on the gearbox side unless you abandon the idea of keeping the oil seal landing area on the shaft - the oil seal will need to go on the drive flange - or abandoned altogether and run a wet adaptor.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/89557d1421637890-adaptor-shaft-imgp3230.jpg

I could be wrong but won't know until the length of a Sheldon case is given here.

Does show, however, that the female receiver (bolted to the gearbox) can be relatively thin walled as long as the alloy choice and treatment is correct and that a simple shaft going through the oil seal is viable idea.

Don't forget to get a measurement of the length of the Sheldon case;)

[workingonit]

Sorry mudmouse, just edited the thread. And where's your write up? :D

[Vern]

Yeah where's my pictures mm?:D

[Vern]

Running the tape measure over it i get 173mm approx. Will this keep you happy😊

[85 county]

Has anyone checked out the off the shelf splines sockets drives etc?

which begs the question what is the MSA spline?

[workingonit]

I'm already happy :p more to the point I think there's a chance you may be too, if last resort is an Outcast shaft :D Don't forget, I mentioned there may be another run of shafts by Outcast (not cases unfortunately) so don't miss the opportunity.

Measurement of the Puma shaft would be useful, though I suspect it may be too long (hopefully not).

[Vern]

Yes I messaged Greg, but for $1000, I think I will invest my money into a better solution.

[Vern]

Has anyone checked out the off the shelf splines sockets drives etc?

which begs the question what is the MSA spline?
Nope and no idea:)

[workingonit]

I spoke to him much earlier and he was 'ball parking' under $1k. Will have to have another chat...

[workingonit]

85 county my MSA5G is 20 spline on approx 36.5mm outside dia.

Apart from what has already been mentioned, what off the shelf splines are you thinking ie sites?

I'm all for a field serviceable unit. Unless we strike it lucky in a manufacturers parts bin, or some machine shop is going to do something at cost out of sympathy, then adapting something is still going to be expensive. And unless we can back up what we're doing with some specialist input we may still have a product that breaks and only ourselves to blame.

Still waiting on Brisbane machine shop; still waiting on Hi-Tough.

[Vern]

At the moment I am doing nothing about mine, waiting on a 1.222 transcase which turns up in a couple of weeks, going to stick it in first and see how it goes with the 5G ratio wise, then will strip it all out, may even do the motor:eek:

[mudmouse]

...sound of whip cracking

Yes, yes, yes, I know. I can't find my photos for Damien and I'm trying to get the bugger out for photos and measurements.

Just spent the day diagnosing no brake lights/changing a brake switch in another :twisted: Land Rover product.

So yes, just like Christmas......it's on the way.

But for those of you without television - MSA output flange bolted to a S3 (24 spline) drive/axle hub, cut down Salisbury axle shaft with SAE10 spline cut into other end, then slips into 26(?) tooth transfer gear. Bit of lathe work to the S3 hub to fit the flange, and remember this is all development/prototype/backyard stuff. The SAE10 spline length is different from the 26 to 28 tooth gear. The non-cross drilled (26 tooth) gear had bugger all wear on the teeth and shaft when removed (after 263,000km), so I stuck with that transfer case.

Promised to take dependants to a drive in tonight, so more tomorrow - maybe even pictures (if I can get this *#&%ing thing out... (i wanted a floating shaft so it would be easy to change in the field!!!)

Matt.

[Ancient Mariner]

MXA 5 R 28 spline x 36.75mm OD x 6o degree

$1400+ gst for hub 4140 and shaft 4340 nitriding hardening

$1200 +gst for 4 sets

There is some extra machine work a spacer to control end float.Between oil seal section and end of imput gear and the 12mm speedo gear removed and some excess cut off the main shaft With freight and stuffing around probably not worth it but another option

AM

[workingonit]

Hey! You've got my steel ruler! :o

Thanks for the info.

Not sure I follow when you say $1200 for 4 sets - is this referring to 4 nitrided shafts?

[Vern]

I do like this AM. Can we wait a little while on this, I need to do some R&R work on mine then measure to see if my adapter housing is true.
How much for a spare shaft?

[Vern]

Hey! You've got my steel ruler! :o

Thanks for the info.

Not sure I follow when you say $1200 for 4 sets - is this referring to 4 nitrided shafts?
Cheaper if more sets are made

[workingonit]

Yep, just occurred to me before your answer.

[Sitec]

Butting in again, but are these any use to u? Here's a shot of the spud shaft that is used between the LT230 and the Torqueflight 3 speed in early Rangie's.. I have one, and all the guys who r fitting the Cummins engines use the 1.003:1 Transfercase.

[Sitec]

And option 2 is to machine a mating face on the outside of the old RR classic front outer 'Mushroom' shafts.. These fit nicely into the LT230 as well!

[Vern]

Butting in again, but are these any use to u? Here's a shot of the spud shaft that is used between the LT230 and the Torqueflight 3 speed in early Rangie's.. I have one, and all the guys who r fitting the Cummins engines use the 1.003:1 Transfercase.
That could come in handy. Got any spare? Would be good to have a look to see if it could be adapted

[Vern]

And option 2 is to machine a mating face on the outside of the old RR classic front outer 'Mushroom' shafts.. These fit nicely into the LT230 as well!
Was thinking of these, but something like the kam shafts and a maxi flange adapted to suit

[Sitec]

Was thinking of these, but something like the kam shafts and a maxi flange adapted to suit

Hadn't thought of that. HyTuff flange to suit classic RR would do the same if they make one.... Re the spud shaft, welcome to use the one I have to trial setup's with.. Trouble is I'm a bit far away!! Doubt I'll ever use it as being hollow, it'll never hack the abuse a Cummins dishes out, but don't want to part with it perminantly as I see it as my 'get out of jail' card in the event of my welded gear failing...

[Vern]

Hadn't thought of that. HyTuff flange to suit classic RR would do the same if they make one.... Re the spud shaft, welcome to use the one I have to trial setup's with.. Trouble is I'm a bit far away!! Doubt I'll ever use it as being hollow, it'll never hack the abuse a Cummins dishes out, but don't want to part with it perminantly as I see it as my 'get out of jail' card in the event of my welded gear failing...
Hang on to it, it may just be to have a looksy at to see if it will work. Will see if i can track one down locally

[Sitec]

Happy to send it over if ya can't find one locally, Id prob make up another welded gear if I had to, as my conversion plate is only 25mm thick. Will swap it for an input gear for a 1.222:1 28D transfer box! ;). Have a spare gear then!

[Vern]

I might have a spare. Give me a few weeks to sort some stuff

[workingonit]

I tried my 1984 RRC SAE10 axle spline in the LT230 input gear. The fit is too loose. Admittedly it was the rear axle.

When measured, the male axle spline set is 2mm smaller in diameter than the LT230 female spline set. Don't know if it is a different situation for later RRClassics.

[Vern]

MXA 5 R 28 spline x 36.75mm OD x 6o degree

$1400+ gst for hub 4140 and shaft 4340 nitriding hardening

$1200 +gst for 4 sets

There is some extra machine work a spacer to control end float.Between oil seal section and end of imput gear and the 12mm speedo gear removed and some excess cut off the main shaft With freight and stuffing around probably not worth it but another option

AM

28 spline yokes are plentiful providing the right diameter, make sitecs adapter look more viable, will mean changing to a mxa though

[Vern]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/projects-tutorials/72722d1392096143-zf-s5-42-lt-230-image.jpg

This keeps popping up in my little brain

[Sitec]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/projects-tutorials/72722d1392096143-zf-s5-42-lt-230-image.jpg

This keeps popping up in my little brain

And its coped with 15000kms so far with 5.9 litres and 160+hp in front of it.. Towing a very bogged mate out in soft sand on an SA beach was the big test, as it was done in anger as the tide was coming in! :)

[workingonit]

How would you rate it as a field serviceable item?

Yeah, I know...unbreakable :)

I wonder, how many people are looking for the adaptor case/shaft, just shaft, just case? What is the common factor - just a like for like replacement for broken Sheldon unit; field serviceable because there is an uncertainty about reliability in some area; totally new approach like Sitec's suggestion, theoretically bomb proof?

Sitec:
- you used the zf output shaft as the anchor point for the draw bolt, to apply pressure to the gearbox output bearing, so how did you attach the zf output to the gearbox output shaft - something like Sheldon?
- how much do you realistically think you can mill from the inside of the LT230 input gear before the wall becomes too thin?
- if possible, what is the diameter of the shaft you put into the gear?
- was any thought given to ideas like vacuum brazing the shaft into the LT230 gear, rather than welding?
- did you weld the shaft into a smooth bored input gear, or did you maintain some sort of male/female spline along with welding?
- remind me if I've forgotten, what became of the LT230 input seal in your creation? Abandoned, specialised size?

Is there a way of merging some of Sitec and Ancients ideas and presentations? I would still prefer gearbox output bearing preload to come from the original drive flange and bolt. Then attach the second drive flange with say female 28 spline 36.75 per Ancients. Into that goes Ancients cut down male shaft 28 spline. But what would have been SAE10 at the other end converted to Mariners welded join. I get the feeling the trend is heading to enlarge the diameter all round for super robustness. That spells trouble for the oil seal.

My concern with cutting down Ancients male 28 spline is that there may only be about 30-35mm of fully developed spline to work with if an oil seal is to kept. As said before if the oil seal is dispensed with then the 28 male spline can be lengthened, along with changes in design of the drive flange to take advantage. The puma example looks like its in that region of 35mm ie quite short, so maybe it has the strength.

So field service in the future would mean replacing an input gear with weld attached broken shaft adaption - much less trouble than pulling the transfer case in theory, provided you can get all broken bits out or they fall to the bottom of the adaptor case. Then replace it with a new input gear with weld attached male 28 spline.

End float, I guess, is a minor problem or non existent because there's been no change to the way the input gear bearings are preloaded. And no drawn bolt required to preload the gearbox output bearing.

[Ancient Mariner]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/projects-tutorials/72722d1392096143-zf-s5-42-lt-230-image.jpg

This keeps popping up in my little brain
Sitecs way is definitely the strongest but will present a few problems for you .Do you add 100mm ?between the gear and female spline or move TC forward alter tailshafts and fabricate new LH mount maybe off Gb PTO cover .Or move engine back even more problems .Just something to consider


AM

[Vern]

True Noel, as i don't have it apart i have no idea on the lengths. I have used the system before but the gearbox output shaft was quite long.

[workingonit]

Sitec, have been re-reading some of your previous posts in this thread and have been mistakenly thinking that you pushed a tube into the input gear, then for security welded the pair. I'm now reminded that you more or less butt welded the two, taking into account a 'v' grove for better penetration.

[Sitec]

Have a read of this thread.. It'll give u a better idea of what I've done. The modified LT230 gear has a tube nut up its guts, which screws onto the ZF output shaft so as to preload that box. The key is using shims to get it in the right place so when its tightened, it also puts a small amount of pre load on the front taper roller bearing in the LT transfer case. The rear is preloaded as norm using the PTO access hole. This is also access to fit or remove the Tube Nut.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/184042-zf-s5-42-lt-230-a.html

[workingonit]

Thanks Sitec. Got part way through your other thread then ran over to my zf auto on the shed floor for a look see.

Is the following too simple?

Buy this for about $100 from Ashcroft (as an example). Its designed to fit the LT230 input gear so no problems that end. It's what I'm assuming Sitec used.

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/zf-rebuild-kits/ftc5090.html)

Then the only machining needed is the development of an adaptor drive flange onto which to bolt the ftc5090 - same as zf setup. The adaptor drive flange of course bolts to the MSA drive flange.

So field service is pto cover and bearing support off. Remove input gear. Undo draw bolt (if not already broken). Pull broken bits of ftc5090 out. Put in new ftc5090 with new draw bolt. Reverse rest of process and drive on. This is assuming no damage to the adaptor drive flange and that you can get broken end of draw bolt out.

So how much to make up an adaptor drive flange?

I'm yet to find a picture of the female spline in the ftc5090.

Apart from continued use of the SAE10 spline and potential overall length of the ftc5090 what is the downside - why was this not a choice when compared to the one piece Sheldon/Outcast unit which still used the SAE10?

And you may have to swap out your LT230 input gear for the longer spline version (not 100% sure this is necessary) but say change over cost $300 (cost me $250 some years ago).

[workingonit]

Popped this off a 1997 zf auto out of a DIsco 1. So it should match the long spline version sold by Ashcroft. Earlier Disco 1 fct5090s had a shorter SAE10 spline to suit shorter spline LT230 input gear.

90107

90108

Is it possible to do away with the draw bolt? To stop floating, secure the fct5090 to the inside of the LT230 input gear by a 'c' clip, as in earlier drawings.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/89557d1421637890-adaptor-shaft-imgp3230.jpg

[workingonit]

Ancient has come back with 4140 for hub and 4340 for shaft.

I could be misunderstanding, but it seems that 4340 is stronger than 4140 ie the shaft might be stronger than the drive flange. Could the shaft strip the drive flange splines in overload? To my way of thinking I would want the drive flange spines to survive at the cost of the shaft. Obviously if the two pieces are way stronger than the forces being applied then doesn't matter.

Trying to get a few links comparing both and their applications.

4340 High Tensile Steel | Interlloy | Engineering Steels + Alloys (http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-products/high-tensile-steels/4340-high-tensile-steel/)

This is interesting and supports Ancients recommendations

'In my experience, however, in sections where heat treatment results in >95% martensite, with comparable levels of cleanliness, and tempered to equal hardness and strength levels, 4140 will have a higher impact strength than 4340. This is contrary to 'common wisdom', but I have test data that supports it. This is mostly a trivial point, however, since in most applications where 4340 is preferred over 4140, the section thickness is such that the 4140 might not fully harden, but the 4340 will'.

4140 and 4340 alloy steel - Metal and Metallurgy engineering - Eng-Tips (http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=344356)

[steveG]

For me, modifying the input gear is a non-starter - I want to confine any custom parts to the adapter itself.

Apologies if I've posted this before. I've thought about posting numerous times but don't think I've actually done it.

Knowing what my standard Salisbury axles coped with without breakage, I'm quite confident of using one of those as the basis for a shaft design of AM/Mudmouse style, utilising a SIII drive flange as Mudmouse has done.
An adapter shaft is going to see many times less torque than a halfshaft in a locked diff (which standard axles cope with reasonably). The 10 spline shaft in the LT230 is weaker than the Salisbury spline so any breakage should happen at the input gear end of the shaft. It should then be easy to remove/change should it ever break.

Upgraded material for the shaft would preferable, but even the standard LR axle material would be up to it IMO.

Only thing to sort out is the drive flange spline lubrication but there are a number of options for that and I don't see it as a show stopper. If it needs some lubrication every year or so for confidence then so be it.

To me the design ticks all the boxes - simple, sufficiently strong, able to be changed in the field utilising a relatively small/light spare, and keeps the LT230 standard. I also think there's half a chance a broken shaft could be welded sufficiently in the field as a "get me home" repair if you were really stuck remotely without a spare.

Steve

[Vern]

Would be great to see mudmouses pics of his, hint hint. I don't even know what a series3 flange looks like:(

[350RRC]

Have read all this thread with interest............ with thoughts about another LR like Verns.

When I was putting the Ritters C9 / LT 95 TC late 70's conversion behind the Chev everything was apart to replace seals.

Should have taken photos I guess....... AFAIRC.... output from the C9 had been cut off and welded to some sort of female splined sleeve that mated with LT 95 input shaft, inside adaptor housing.

Remember thinking that it was a flawless big weld. Gets flogged, no probs.

Noel might still be working at Ritters and remember how it was done.

Just trying to say that welding can work.

cheers, DL

[workingonit]

Hi SteveG, not sure whose design or what design is being referred to or if a mix, or is it general observation of what you would like.

My last drawing uses off the shelf land rover parts (or after market copies) proved in thousands of vehicles.

The exception is the drive flange which will have to be made - but even then it is copying the proved 20 involute zf output spline system - which does not get lubricated because there is no movement because it is bolted.

Only the SAE10 requires lubrication and that is taken care of by cross drilling, and oil feeder plate if fitted

The concept is probably much like mudmouses use of a S3 drive flange (...whip...crack...photos).

[workingonit]

S3 , right, is 24 spline 31.5mm approx o/d. Spline length approx 30mm. Left is MSA drive flange.

S3 fange outside dia approx 113.5mm (compared to 120mm for MSA drive flange).

90133

90134

90135

90136

[Dervish]

Dervish - did you happen to measure the shaft length?
If the length were suitable it might be possible to use one and only have to make a custom splined flange for the gearbox end.

Steve

Large spline 40.8mm (red), dia: 59.5mm (yellow)
Base to end of oil seal landing: 122.2mm (green)
End of oil seal to end of shaft: 106.8mm (blue)
Shaft length: 229mm

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/814.jpg


Just out of curiosity, why is it out? Fretting un-lubed splines?


Gearbox was shagged, but I think un-lubed splines are a bad idea.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/OreganoM1/IMG_9286_zps92774387.jpg

I found it interesting that the shaft would fit through the LT230 if the oil seal and bearing were out of the way. In theory, I think it should be possible to remove these with the TC in place. Probably not possible in practice though.

I also took a picture of the gearbox output. Spline base diameter on the gearbox side of this is 39.5mm, not sure how that compares to an Isuzu mainshaft spline.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/816.jpg

Not sure if this is useful information to anyone, but these shafts can apparently be had for $160 and should be readily available; that has to make them an attractive option.

[Vern]

Thanks, would be interesting to know how mud mouse ran the transcase seal.

[workingonit]

Thanks dervish.

The puma shaft requires shortening, re-splining, and a flange made. There may be opportunity for a slightly larger (stronger) diameter on the MSA side assuming keeping the SAE10 side.

The ftc5090 requires no reworking. Just needs a flange. But is slightly smaller in diameter.

[Vern]

S3 , right, is 24 spline 31.5mm approx o/d. Spline length approx 30mm. Left is MSA drive flange.

S3 fange outside dia approx 113.5mm (compared to 120mm for MSA drive flange).

90133

90134

90135

90136

What's the diameter of the seal surface on the msa flange? Also the length from where it bolts on the the other end?

[Lockee]

Has anyone discussed with Bill Larman and Arnold ex MacNamara's.

Both have a lot of experience with these?

Happy to intro to them if needed

[workingonit]

The MSA flange?!

The oil seal is 45mm diameter.

Bit more clarity required on 'length from where it bolts on the other end'

[workingonit]

No Lockee, but happy to see you chase it up :)

Can't remember whether I spoke to a Barry or Bill at Hi-Tough - same fellow?

[Vern]

The MSA flange?!

The oil seal is 45mm diameter.

Bit more clarity required on 'length from where it bolts on the other end'

Sorry, from where the face of the flange is to the end of where the oil seal runs. Its total length.

[Vern]

Has anyone discussed with Bill Larman and Arnold ex MacNamara's.

Both have a lot of experience with these?

Happy to intro to them if needed

Bill hasn't been around here for a while, he'd be all over this:).
Who is it (what company) that do this kind of stuff that are ex mcnamara's? Something drive line?????

[Lockee]

Matt at Total Traction Driveline.

Also worth a chat.

I have forwarded a link to Bill on Facebook

[Dervish]

Has anyone discussed with Bill Larman and Arnold ex MacNamara's.

Both have a lot of experience with these?

Happy to intro to them if needed

It would be great to have Bill back on the forum, for this topic or any other.

[workingonit]

I'll give you two lengths.

64mm - if you are talking about point of contact with retaining bolt (inside bell shape of flange) to far end of oil seal

80mm - if talking about over all length of flange (after taking off 2mm for the witness ring). Otherwise absolute total length 82mm

[Vern]

OK thanks, now how about just bolting two msa flanges together and getting a transcase seal to suit!
AM mentioned this a loooonng time ago but he made his adapter as he didn't have access to another flange at the right price.
If its not quite long enough then just make a spacer. I have 89mm on Sheldon's shaft from where it bolts on to the end of the seal surface

[workingonit]

Time for you to do a bit of drawing (scaled - not some work of art on the back of an envelope) :)

By my estimates back to back MSA flanges will see you pushing into the space occupied by the input gear, probably by 10-15mm. After milling it back you could do a Sitec weld job on it and join it to the input shaft.

The back of the Outcast shaft is bell shaped and 20mm deep. It needs to be this thick to allow for the bell, which in turn allows for the intrusion of the MSA output shaft.

By constrast the MSA flange is only 9mm thick, the bell is much shallower and looks like touch and go as to whether the output shaft will stop you bringing two MSA flanges together.

[Vern]

Huh. Msa flange is 82mm, Sheldon's is 87mm ( from where it bolts on, to the end of the seal surface) how is that going to be 10-15mm to long?

[workingonit]

When you said 'two msa flanges' I thought you meant two MSA flanges!

Didn't twig you're going to refurbish the broken Sheldon major portion (which I have wondered at but also the quality for splining).

Using Sheldons will appear to put you 7mm further into the input gear space, again machine back. Assuming the rear of Sheldons is as deeply belled as the Outcast then back to back should be OK.

Just got to figure joining back to back to output gear.

[workingonit]

you need to look at this again. Your Sheldon shaft is in pencil on the top margin, drawn according to some specks you gave earlier. You will then seen how your shaft relates to the Outcast.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/89670d1421930927-adaptor-shaft-imgp3233.jpg


Your oil seal landing is wider and there are significant differences in the way the two transition from the oil seal to the SAE10. Where mine is sloping is where it is starting to conform to the shape of the input gear 'mouth' for want of a better word. This is why elsewhere I queried whether the input gear, when the transfer case in attached to the gearbox, puts force on the gearbox shaft in any way (in respect to the original zf installation or other manual rover box).

Seems, if I understand Sitecs work, this is the case in a way - he has to preload the input gear taper bearings but also through the draw bolt exert preload onto the zf shaft using the input gear. If we stick to using the existing MSA drive flange and securing bolt this issue become irrelevant for us.

Anyway, given your shaft does not slope from the oil seal landing (point of failure), implies your shaft must sit a little to the left of the Outcast unit. But why, I do not understand, because the Sheldon case and Outcast case appear to be near identical in over all length. Unless mine does not sit as far in as I think ie the slope previously discussed is not so close to the input gear 'mouth' as I assume -- but this can only be proved by reassembling everything, taking more measurements, then taking it all apart again.

[Vern]

Ahhhh, do I have to draw this on the back of an envelope for you?:D
Use two MSA drive flanges bolted together back to back, o-ring in the middle or Welch plug, find a seal that fits it that will fit the lt230, get a stub axle made to suit the input gear and msa drive flange.

Now go and bolt yours together, drive the hell out of it and see if you can break it, if not, you need not worry about all this:p

[workingonit]

Wish I could go drive mine, but I'm still waiting for my certified welder to turn up for the engine mounts and chassis stiffening plates. Just have to drive my Troop Carrier instead :p

Tried ebay and general google searches for the flange but couldn't get any close matches - lots of cheap LRover stuff but too small. Try National Truck Spares, they've turned up a couple of odd things for me re the 4bd1.

Mudmouses's use of the S3 looks a good alternative - new trend in stolen series parts to feed growing Isuzu cult following.

Maybe you should consider running a wet adaptor case.

Someone mentioned it, but I want to see if its true. Did Sheldon incorporate the back cover of the MSA into the adaptor case? With the Outcast that cover is removed and discarded.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Ahhhh, do I have to draw this on the back of an envelope for you?:D
Use two MSA drive flanges bolted together back to back, o-ring in the middle or Welch plug, find a seal that fits it that will fit the lt230, get a stub axle made to suit the input gear and msa drive flange.

Now go and bolt yours together, drive the hell out of it and see if you can break it, if not, you need not worry about all this:pHow do we know if the MSA drive flanges are true?

In the New Process conversion the thread was cut off and a new shaft similar to the one on the TF727 and ZFHP22 - LT230 (but without the internal tube nut) was made.

Does the MSA need the preload of the rear flange?

[workingonit]

By all accounts the MSA output shaft bearing needs preload and is normally applied by the securing nut tightening the drive flange down. Remove it then you have to resort to Dougal or Sitec methods as alternatives.

Each drive flange has a press fit witness ring or 'male', couple of mm wide and high (size apparently not important). One of the flanges will have to have the ring removed, and replaced with a 'female' recess to take the others 'male'. Apart from relying on Isuzu's machining skills, the skills of the person doing the adaption then I guess you would mount it up and put a dial on the end and check for wobble.

Any links to the new process version - from memory is that about later US engines or gearboxes?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The New Process box was only 4 speed but stronger than the Land Rover series box for use behind US and Aussie V8s. They were used in Ford F series (250/350), Dodge Ram and International pickups and Scout.

The shafting material was the same as the RAN was using at the Garden Island repair base (NSW not WA) and was originally difficult to acquire from commercial suppliers. I seem to remember a grade like Q4 or R something. The later material was what Mal Storey started to use for Maxi-Drive axles, which had a trade name "hi-tough" the same name that Barry Ward now uses. The problems that the LROCS group had was that the foundaries where they started to get the hardening done all wanted to lay the shafts flat on blocks in the furnace. All these shafts ended up bent. They only had success when they could get the shafts hardened in a furnace where the shaft was hung vertically.

It was pre Internet/pre bulletin boards so I'm fairly sure there is no site where you can see them written up. Bobslandies still has the NP box behind his F302 SIIA station wagon and IIRC has a spare shaft. Perhaps I can convince him to take it out of its wax wrapping.

In the MSA, I wonder if you could cut off the thread, then drill and tap the mainshaft and make an adapter the on the same design as the ZF box (understanding that a hole up the guts will reduce the strength.

[workingonit]

My last suggestion would save you cutting off the thread on your MSA output shaft and trying to tap it.

The drive flange emulates the zf set up.

Apart from making the flange the rest is off the shelf parts, proven, plentiful and real cheap.

Have you looked at the image I posted?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90107d1422848893-adaptor-shaft-imgp3239.jpg

I'll see if I can find some info on the Q4 that you mention, out of curiosity. Otherwise I'd run with the alloys suggested by Ancient.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yes I have seen that image and while The idea has merrit, you are still using the propshaft flange instead of mating directly to the spline on the Isuzu mainshaft. Propshaft flanges are designed to interface with a propshaft where the uni-joints will take up any misalignment. In fact a propshaft requires longitudinal misalignment between the ends to prevent brinnelling of the uni-joints.

Every time there is a joint you introduce potential misalignment and vibration. In the design above there is the Isuzu propshaft flange that interfaces on the mainshaft, fit of the 4 bolts between the flange and adapter, the adapter that interfaces with the flange and then the spud shaft and its interface with the LT230. That is 5 separate interfaces (if you don't count the 4 bolts separately). Why not have an adapter shaft that interfaces directly on the Isuzu mainshaft (like the ZF adapter shaft) and then into the LT230. This reduces the potential for misalignment to two interfaces.

As I questioned earlier. Do we know if the propshaft flanges are true?

i.e.: Are the bolt holes equidistant and aligned with their opposite hole across the mainshaft centre?
Is the flange parrallel (90 degrees to the mainshaft in all planes)
Is the flange balanced?

[workingonit]

The only reference I can find to 'Q' is that it could mean quenched steel or hardened, like 'W' for weathered steel.

The 4 could be the type of quenching method or just the grade like bolts, grade 4 is medium carbon, cold drawn steel.

These days you specify the alloy along with the desired treatment method.

SAE steel grades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades)

[workingonit]

OK Lotza. I've just finished talking to Marks Adaptors.

You'll feel somewhat vindicated regarding your previous suggestion of gearbox mainshaft direct to t/c input gear.

For general purposes Marks use simple straight splined spud shafts to connect the gearbox output shaft to the input gear. Held on by draw bolt.

For significant power output situations they connect the input gear directly to the gearbox output shaft. This will generally require reworking existing shaft or completely new shaft. Thousands of $$$

Marks don't cut their own gear. They have a parent company that does the work. Send Marks an email with specifications and they will forward to the parent company. The parent company will more than likely also require samples of the parts to be joined by the adaptor. The parent company will then get back with a quote. Price falls considerably for 15 or more units.

You should send your email to Nick at Marks as he now has some idea through my discussion with him.

[Vern]

So what your saying is they do what dougal did, or for higher horsepower they do what sitec did.

[workingonit]

I have my reservations about trying to preload the MSA output bearing by using the zf style 10-12mm draw bolt system.

I've not been able to buy or download a workshop manual for the MSA box (and it may be a chapter in a more comprehensive NPR manual). However, what I have found is the workshop manual for the MSB gearbox.

If anyway similar to the MSA, the MSB requires the drive flange nut to be torqued to 226 Nm, or roughly two thirds the force required to do up the 200Tdi damper bolt - not insignificant.

Others with better knowledge might like to comment on whether the zf style draw bolt can cope.

You might consider Dougals set up, much like what you are proposing, but he preserves his output shaft thread instead of cutting it off and trying to tap it.

[workingonit]

I'm sympathetic to what you are saying about prop shaft issues, that the prop shaft is there to take up any misalignment. But that is a very dynamic system, with suspension movement changing prop shaft angles significantly.

Take away suspension, weld axle casing to chassis, as near perfectly straight alignment as possible to gearbox output, would you need a prop shaft yolk? Sliding splines maybe. Must check out those trucks that use torque tunnels as the chassis to see if they incorporate a yolk.

[workingonit]

Sorry Vern, didn't see that slim line comment amongst all my verbal garbage :D

I'm not familiar with the engineering that Toyota and Nissan use in the area we are dealing with.

Yes, it seems like a Dougal shaft held on by a draw bolt. But do Toyo/Niss output shaft bearings need preload like the MSA, I can't say. If they do need preload then I do not know how they may go about it.

Not like Sitec, as far as I understand Sitecs - still reading.

For high power MSA application I think Marks would say open your gearbox, remove your output shaft, throw it away, remachine a new output shaft that will extend directly into you input gear, using your choice of spline, be SAE10, 28 involute or whatever. Along the lines of one of Lotza's proposals.

[workingonit]

Lotza, in regard to your three questions.

Answer to 1 and 2 is I rely on the manufacturer and his skills. From what I see of the Outcast product in my possession all is good. Outcast have produced about the same number as Sheldon and no failures - see my comments to this effect elsewhere.

Answer to 3 - only when finally assembled can I dial the output to know that 1 and 2 above are truly correct or not. Many months away for this.

And even if the shaft runs true (within acceptable limits - see Ancients comically miffed comments regarding his German mates expectations), your casing may let you down and ruin all the effort put into the shaft.

[Vern]

Well there is no way I'm getting an msa mainshaft made.

[workingonit]

Vern, do it for Lotza.

Forgot to mention. Marks adaptors do destruction test all their products per ISO4000(?), generally two from a batch...yay, cheers from the 'I won't buy till tested'...then they pass the cost on to the purchaser.

I think Lotza should pursue the straight adaptor with Marks, as Lotza has a better understanding of the proposed system than I do.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'm sympathetic to what you are saying about prop shaft issues, that the prop shaft is there to take up any misalignment. But that is a very dynamic system, with suspension movement changing prop shaft angles significantly.

Take away suspension, weld axle casing to chassis, as near perfectly straight alignment as possible to gearbox output, would you need a prop shaft yolk? Sliding splines maybe. Must check out those trucks that use torque tunnels as the chassis to see if they incorporate a yolk. Without suspension or other movement you dont need a uni or flex coupling, however think about what Land Rover did on the Range Rover when they went to independant front suspension and did away with the unis on the front diff pinion. There was sufficient flex in the system for the splines to fail and IIRC they killed a number of people in the US.

That is not the issue here, the adaptor should be rigid enough not to flex outside the tolerances of the spline. If you can't do that then we should be using a remote transfer and jack shaft.

I'll have to read back over the threads to understand what dougal and sitec are doing. However if you want to preserve the thread on the Isuzu mainshaft you could use a tube nut on the mainshaft thread and have a matching thread for the, socket headed cap screw inside the spud shaft to use as the draw bolt. Or even step the threads inside the tube nut and use a smaller draw bolt so you can have a smaller bore inside the spud shaft.

The compromise will be matching the draw bolt size and the preload required for the MSA against the bore inside the LT230 end of the shaft

[Vern]

So basically noel (AM) has gone about it all the wrong way😉

[workingonit]

I still like Sitecs idea but with a bit of Mudmouse mixed in.

I still have the S3 drive on my desk and keep staring at it. Its the closest match to the Isuzu drive flange I have seen and probably with enough bell depth.

Don't know if you could find a propeller shaft small enough, but if you could then cut out the sliding yoke with a bit of length either side to play with.

Weld one half of the sliding yoke to the S3 flang and the other half to the input gear.

So bolt your S3 with welded fitment to the existing MSA output. Put on transfer box. Insert input gear with other half of welded fitment. Do away with oil seal and run wet adaptor case.

[workingonit]

In more detail.

Mill out the centre of the oh so cheap Ashcroft input gear as large as you dare.

Make the yoke a full length press fit into the machined input gear. Weld where the shaft enters the gear and weld it also where it terminates near the pto cover. Alternatively look at something like vacuum brazing it in - there is one Oz place I saw that offers that service. May be particularly worth it if wanting to avoid welding - and may allow you to sweat them apart if ever damaged, for refurbishment. But it won't get damaged will it!

Similarly mill out the splines in the S3 - less wall thickness here to play with here.

The yolk for the S3 may need to be the diameter of the nose carrying the spline - 47mm. Then reduce in diameter to enter the area now machined free of spline - 31mm. So rather than having a 31mm shaft running up to your S3 flange so that it can enter the 31mm hole, you end up with a 47mm shaft running up to the S3, then only reducing as it enters the hole. Weld the 47mm to the nose and the 37mm at the rear.

[workingonit]

Darn, another one liner...

If AM's has not failed after some use then he has executed correctly one of several options :D

I only query whether AM's can be fitted into 173mm of Outcast/Sheldon box. Which goes back to my complaint of needing some basic measurements when people post a proposal.

My main concern was that his MSA side of the shaft may have to be reduced in length to fit. I queried whether there would be sufficient spline length after shortening to be sufficient in strength, is all. I did post a diagram here!! :mad: His SAE10 or whatever into the input gear is pretty standard length.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So basically noel (AM) has gone about it all the wrong way��As the Budda is supposed to have said, "there are many paths to the top of the mountain, Ancient Mariner's is but one" ! :D

All I know is back in the days of Moses and Noah, when we were doing gearbox conversions to series Landies and this was before McNamara's and Mark's were doing any conversions commercially, most particularly the C4 and NP conversions the only conversions that had any reliability were single piece spud shafts or complete mainshafts with the interface on the end.

The machinists doing this work were professionals, had access to gear cutters and and machines to cut most of the internal and external SAE and other standard splines. Sometimes the work were foreign orders at famous name airline maintenance facilities or at RAN Garden Island. So I have no doubt about the ability of the machinists involved.

[Vern]

Darn, another one liner...

If AM's has not failed after some use then he has executed correctly one of several options :D

I only query whether AM's can be fitted into 173mm of Outcast/Sheldon box. Which goes back to my complaint of needing some basic measurements when people post a proposal.

My main concern was that his MSA side of the shaft may have to be reduced in length to fit. I queried whether there would be sufficient spline length after shortening to be sufficient in strength, is all. I did post a diagram here!! :mad: His SAE10 or whatever into the input gear is pretty standard length.

Noels is 175mm, he also gets 50mm engagement at the msa end of his shaft.
His motor also is bigger and more powerful than ours.

[workingonit]

Well, on the basis of those measurements, lets do it!

It would be important to know AM's case length as well.

Must say though the Outcast shaft is 184mm long and the Sheldon unit is 193mm both in 173mm cases.

AM's
- upsides - apparently it works (need a reminder of how much field work it has done) - apparently field serviceable (if you don't use 1.003 box) - float is restrained by oil seal and presumeably bumping against something in the bell, but query this method.

- downsides - totally custom, may be prudent to buy spares up front - $1,200 if you can get a few people interested + cost of spares - if you end up using your spare then faced with getting
one offs manufactured - not sure if the method of float restrain is appropriate - if not done correctly then Lotza may have last laugh.

My last suggestion
- upsides - custom flange cheaper than AM package, and if done correctly should be as good as zf box arrangement - adaptor shafts are cheap, proven and readily available - field serviceable (if you don't use 1.003 box) - float is restrained by drawn bolt, but could you use AM's method, query this method

- downside - custom flange, if it breaks then faced with one offs manufactured - may not be as strong as AM's - if not done correctly then Lotza may have last laugh.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Talking about machining transfer box gears. The South Africans change the ratio on SIIB transfer cases by machining off the teeth and some of the gear body and then they bore a hole in the centre of a gear which they want to use and sweat it onto the base of the original gear. The last step is to peg the joint between the newly created gear in multiple places.

I wonder if it would be possible to something similar to the LT230 input and extremely close couple the MSA to the LT230 using the original Isuzu mainshaft spline?

[workingonit]

The joining of two gear parts is interesting. Given AM has managed to weld and stress relieve then his approach to weld may be better than pegging in such a two part arrangement. Then there is vacuum brazing (my new buzz phrase).

Close coupling would mean alteration to prop shafts as engine may not move back enough - engine move certainly not doable in the RRC. And I already have my case.

[workingonit]

Yet one more idea.

MSA flange as per usual. Bolt on an unmolested S3 flange (other than removing witness ring and creating recess to take MSA witness ring). Get a stub shaft made - fits into the S3 and takes the fct5090 at the other end with a draw bolt.

The cost to machine the stub shaft would small if we bought half a dozen each. Plenty of spares.

The S3 has a 'c' clip groove already machined. Duplicate the groove on the stub shaft and that will resolve float.

May not be the strongest thing in the world but probably strong enough for most needs. And who cares, it would be so cheap and easy to repair and replace.

PS. Just holding the parts over the drawing outline of the Outcast shaft. About 20mm may have to be machined of the fct5090 at the MSA side - leaving 20mm of spline - keep in mind the S3 is 28mm! Will need to do more detailed measurements. Some thickness could come off the S3 flange to compensate.

[workingonit]

Essentially it would look like this, minus maybe 20mm at the most - see finger. The stub shaft would be about 40-50mm long hidden away in side. Anyone know if you can buy single tooth carbide cutters with involute profile - could just about make my own stub using the quill of a mill or decent drill press.

Mudmouse where are you? Did you try this and did it fail?

90171

[workingonit]

Thanks Bearman

[workingonit]

Bolting the S3 to the MSA flange is problematic but probably possible. MSA is 120mm and the S3 113.5mm.

Just measured the Troop Carrier drive flange on the transfer case, to which the rear prop bolts, and it is 119mm - much better. Will see if I can pick up a service discard at the wreckers or auto shop - think I can find one in Darwin?

[steveG]

snip...

Someone mentioned it, but I want to see if its true. Did Sheldon incorporate the back cover of the MSA into the adaptor case? With the Outcast that cover is removed and discarded.

No - the back cover is also discarded with Sheldon's. See this page: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/90033-isuzu-msa-gearbox-lt230-11.html

Steve

[Sitec]

Hi again. Sorry, but I came into this late.. Can one of you post a pic of the back of the gearbox you are trying to mate the LT230 to? There's a company in the UK called Rakeway Engineering who mfr and supply a shaft that fits into the LT, and has a bolt flange.. Surely if a boss was spun up with one side matching the Isuzu box and the other side matching this Rakeway part (uses a Land Rover flange)... then all that needs to be done is make the conversion ring/tube around it... Just a thought. :)

[Vern]

have a flick through the pictures Steve just linked to

[Bearman]

What the...

Obviously the rotate didn't work.

The 'Edit' button float box says the button is for 'Edite/delete messages' but could not see a delete anywhere. Yes I could get rid of the text, but you would still have an empty reply. Anyone know how to delete a reply totally?

What do you want to delete, the 2nd photo.

[workingonit]

Yes thanks

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sitec
IMHO if one is going to use flanges you may as well use a jack shaft and remote mount the LT230

[Bearman]

Done

[Sitec]

Sitec
IMHO if one is going to use flanges you may as well use a jack shaft and remote mount the LT230

Length was the issue which is why I made my welded gear setup.. Getting a 5.9 turbo diesel and truck box far enough back yet still retaining a sensible rear prop was hard. Re flanges, yes and no.. Thinking ease here.. Two bolt able faces with the only machining being the conversion boss, a flame cut plate for each gearbox mating face and a large dia (200mm) tube welded between the two plates and the job is done...

[workingonit]

And tragically Sitec is 15,000kms closer to his breakage...and in ten years he hopefully will be 150,000kms closer...

Sitec. Yes, I looked at the Rakeway maybe two years ago? From memory not particularly cheap - but could be wrong. I believe unit is not one piece, but a spline adaptor held into the drive flange by a bolt at the back - look closely at their photo and you should see it. I suspect there may not be enough room given the bolt may clash with the nose of the MSA output shaft - so to speak. Have emailed them for an update and hopefully some measurements - although I remember they don't generally respond and you have to ring them.

[workingonit]

Just spent a fruitless 4 hours driving into, around and out of Darwin looking for any flange that might match 120mm diameter.

The Toyota specialist wrecker didn't have anything with a 120mm flange, despite me having a 120mm on my Troopy. The other wrecker said if I found a flange I would have to buy what ever it is attached to, they don't separate - couldn't find anything. Another Toyo wrecker option had gone out of business. The fourth on my list is closed up, dealt once with the owner, and all I can say is think Wolf Creek the movie.

Went to the Isuzu dealer and after ten minutes of searching said no stock in Australia that he can see. If it were still available overseas then $350-$400 'maybe'. The Isuzu mechanic said maybe threw one out about 3 or 4 years ago as indication of how commonly they need replacing. He suggested an Isuzu wrecker on the sunshine coast but couldn't remember the name.

A truck spares place said it'll be hard to find an off the shelf Isuzu or any other manufacturer for that size - but not impossible - ball park $200-$300 'maybe'.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

:o :o

[workingonit]

You lost for words Lotza?

And the guy who sold me the 4bd1t/gearbox I found out is dead...just saying.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What else can one say when you've gone to all that trouble for nil result. :(

Just one quick question: (Never having opened the top of the LT230) Is the input gear self supporting and engages the spud shaft directly, or is it supported on an input shaft into which the spud shaft engages?

[Bearman]

What about this. Front output drive flange from a stage 1 LT95

[workingonit]

I did spy a gearbox pto hydraulic pump, the type you would put onto the side of the MSA or other Japanese truck gearbox. Branded POWAUTO, 6 bolt mount. Covered in mud and sitting in a lot of other junk - didn't drag it back to the shop for a price yet, just a little more hidden than when I found it ;) Need to do some research.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Too shiny!

[workingonit]

Sadly it looks like the top one or the bottom two, and not the one specifically for the MSA. The pump itself is not shown in this link, but bolts on later depending on output requirements etc.

Isuzu Transmissions | Hydreco (http://www.hydreco.com/products/isuzu-transmissions)

[workingonit]

Bearman.

Lotza uses too many words when she say 'too shiny'. I'm more economical when I say 'brilliant'. And to think I bought a stage 1 Isuzu some weeks back. Off to look see.

[steveG]

What about this. Front output drive flange from a stage 1 LT95

Bore out the spline, cut the end off a ZF gearbox output shaft and weld it in.
Bolt on the ZF spud shaft.
Job done :)

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The PTO cover plate is on the LHS of the MSA so I think there would be clearance issues between the box and chassis rail.

[Bearman]

And I know where's there's more of them :D

[workingonit]

Lotza.

The LT230 input gear is self supporting within the casing. It is bound by two tapered bearings.

Regarding the two bearing races - the hardened rings in which the taper bearings sit and rotate. The race closest to the MSA is set in the casing itself. The other race sits in a plate, the plate is sandwiched between the pto cover and case - haven't needed to do it, but I understand preload can be adjusted by shimming behind the race before pressing the race into the plate.

That is why it is so easy to remove the input gear - remove pto cover - remove plate holding the race - pull out the gear.

The spud shaft does not support the input gear weight, just drives the input gear.

[workingonit]

SteveG. You make it sound too simple. Do you want this thread to end...:mad::D

Still haven't got to the stage 1.

[Vern]

What about this. Front output drive flange from a stage 1 LT95
Brian, got a length of that flange? Also what diameter is the part the seal runs on?

[Vern]

SteveG. You make it sound too simple. Do you want this thread to end...:mad::D

Still haven't got to the stage 1.
Yes, lets start another one:p

[Bearman]

Brian, got a length of that flange? Also what diameter is the part the seal runs on?

50mm length. Seal surface diameter 43 near enough.

[Vern]

Thanks, so you could make a spacer to bring it closer to the lt230 seal, or get an MSA drive flange which will fit into the seal onto the lt230, and bolt up to the existing drive flange on the MSA..then just get a spud shaft made. Well that's what my plan is going to be, so far.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not that I like the idea of the multiple flanges, but what is the spline?

Is it actually the same SAE spline that the spud shaft uses?

[Vern]

ISUZU NHR/NKR transmission gearbox parts Flanges, View automatic transmission case parts , GC Product Details from Jiangxi Gangear Transmission Machinery Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com (http://gc-gears.en.alibaba.com/product/747028216-215979436/ISUZU_NHR_NKR_transmission_gearbox_parts_Flanges.h tml)


how many do you want?:)

[steveG]

Thanks, so you could make a spacer to bring it closer to the lt230 seal, or get an MSA drive flange which will fit into the seal onto the lt230, and bolt up to the existing drive flange on the MSA..then just get a spud shaft made. Well that's what my plan is going to be, so far.

Or turn up a sleeve that will go over the existing seal area and reach into the LT230 seal instead of spacing the flange.
From memory Sitec found a 50mm?? seal that fitted the LT230.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

ISUZU NHR/NKR transmission gearbox parts Flanges, View automatic transmission case parts , GC Product Details from Jiangxi Gangear Transmission Machinery Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com (http://gc-gears.en.alibaba.com/product/747028216-215979436/ISUZU_NHR_NKR_transmission_gearbox_parts_Flanges.h tml)


how many do you want?:)I think you have to buy by the FCL

[workingonit]

Yes, my stage one has the same flange, approx 125.5mm diameter.

As Lotza asked. And behind the tape measure it does look SAE of some sort.

Could you give us the overall length?

[steveG]

Not that I like the idea of the multiple flanges, but what is the spline?

Is it actually the same SAE spline that the spud shaft uses?

If you mean the same spline as the LT230 input gear - unfortunately not. Its 6 spline from memory, whereas the input gear is 10.

Steve

[workingonit]

Vern. I saw the alibab add last night - no prices and no dimensions. They say for NHR/NKR. When at the Isuzu dealer he said you cannot guarantee that the same max diameter is always used, even though they look the same in the book. But if identical then yes good option. Need cost comparison between an alibaba sourced and the LRover.

[Bearman]

Yes, 6 spline and 50mm length not including the lip that aligns the driveshaft.

[steveG]

Vern. I saw the alibab add last night - no prices and no dimensions. They say for NHR/NKR. When at the Isuzu dealer he said you cannot guarantee that the same max diameter is always used, even though they look the same in the book. But if identical then yes good option. Need cost comparison between an alibaba sourced and the LRover.

IMO the flange could quite reliably be fabricated using the center of a suitable axle drive flange (Salisbury 24 spline/Toyota/Nissan etc), welded into a larger outer flange if required. I don't believe the material of the outer needs to be particularly strong as the stress is low. I've seen drive flanges welded onto Sals rear axles in an ex-African 130 that had done a lot of work with no sign of breakage/cracking. A larger diameter welded center into a gearbox output flange would surely be less stressed.

If the seal land was on the flange somehow as Vern is suggesting, then the splines are lubricated (tick :) ). Spud shaft could be made from a suitable axle with just the SAE10 needing to be cut. Could likely be done in the hardened state (but I'm no machinist) so would be cheaper to produce (tick :) )
Small spare and easily changed in the field (tick :) )

There have probably been 15 other replies spearing off in different directions while I've been typing this...

Steve

[workingonit]

Is the front flange on the LT95 the same as the rear flange? I cannot see the rear flange on my stage 1 as it is encased by the brake drum.

The reason I ask is because the few searches I've just done regarding a front flange all come back to selling the rear flange. You would have to assume they are the same.

And it has different shape and number of holes. Am I to believe the flange is specific to the stage 1?

http://www.shop4autoparts.net/Defender/Gearbox/LT95/Input-Output-Shafts-Flanges/FLANGE_REAR_OUTPUT_LT95_GEARBOX_V8_FRC3509.html

[steveG]

Is the front flange on the LT95 the same as the rear flange? I cannot see the rear flange on my stage 1 as it is encased by the brake drum.

The reason I ask is because the few searches I've just done regarding a front flange all come back to selling the rear flange. You would have to assume they are the same.

And it has different shape and number of holes. Am I to believe the flange is specific to the stage 1?

FRC3509 | FLANGE REAR OUTPUT LT95 GEARBOX V8 FRC3509 | SHOP4AUTOPARTS (http://www.shop4autoparts.net/Defender/Gearbox/LT95/Input-Output-Shafts-Flanges/FLANGE_REAR_OUTPUT_LT95_GEARBOX_V8_FRC3509.html)

Correct. Stage1 had a double-cardan front propshaft.

Steve

[workingonit]

Thanks steveg.

My salsbury axle drive flange is 113mm - too small.

My Troop Carrier if size is consistent, is 104mm - too small.

Trouble is finding an output flange that is large enough to weld into even if we have a centre to suite.

And if we find a flange of 120mm diameter I would probably adapt to the splines already in place - well having said that I'm not sure about SAE6?!

So maybe 20mm thick 4140 was it(?) plate/rod steel cut/milled into large rings to give the 120mm with spline centre of choice welded in...hmmm worth considering - cost of this versus something off the shelf.

I could probably do that my self but as Lotza says the work has to be first class to avoid end wobble.

[Vern]

The MSA flange?!

The oil seal is 45mm diameter.

Bit more clarity required on 'length from where it bolts on the other end'LT230 is 42mm, so for my conversion, the msa flange is the right length (seal has about 5mm to play with, if not small spacer plate), surely I can find a 45mm seal instead of a 42mm one, get a 10 spline to whatever spline shaft made, stick a welsch plug in the back of the adapter flange to stop oil leaking into the adapter housing.
As SteveG said, tick, tick, tick.

[steveG]

Thanks steveg.

My salsbury axle drive flange is 113mm - too small.

My Troop Carrier if size is consistent, is 104mm - too small.

Trouble is finding an output flange that is large enough to weld into even if we have a centre to suite.

And if we find a flange of 120mm diameter I would probably adapt to the splines already in place - well having said that I'm not sure about SAE6?!

So maybe 20mm thick 4140 was it(?) plate/rod steel cut/milled into large rings to give the 120mm with spline centre of choice welded in...hmmm worth considering - cost of this versus something off the shelf.

I could probably do that my self but as Lotza says the work has to be first class to avoid end wobble.

Absolutely no requirement for high grade steel to weld a center into IMO. MS would be fine.

Steve

[workingonit]

And the Heart Foundation ticks many things that other health experts would call time bombs :D

[workingonit]

But having thought of a welded centre ie welding into a ring, could mudmouses S3 be given extra diameter that way? S3 are cheap and available. And again it has a reasonable involute set - just need a tiny spud shaft 50mm long, 'x' number of teeth involute one end and 'y' number of teeth involute the other.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If you are talking SIII 24 spline drive flanges, why not ask Barry Ward about getting undrilled HTE 571 hub flanges. He may even do them with the correct 42mm protrusion for the LT230 seal. He can cut the 24 spline flange so it is a press fit onto the spline of the shaft.

He also has the brooches for the early Rover diff, so we could get him to do the spud shaft as well.

[Vern]

And the Heart Foundation ticks many things that other health experts would call time bombs :D

So your saying it won't work, or not a good idea?

[workingonit]

Lotza, you got any other reference to HTE 571 - searched aulro and only got a reference to loctite 571. On the general web nothing after a quick scan.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Guys I'm looking for a summary of the spud shaft and thought it is time we are all in the same headspace.

If we wish to keep the original Land Rover prop shafts:
What is the space between the back of the MSA (rear cover off) and the front of the LT230? (Vern 173mm, AM's is 175mm)
What is the distance from the rear face of the MSA and the rear face of the MSA drive flange?
What is the pitch circle of the MSA drive flange?
What is the OD of the MSA drive flange? 120mm??
Does the mainshaft and nut protrude rearward of the face of the MSA drive flange? If yes: How much and what OD of nut?
Does the MSA drive flange have a flat face?
What is the measurement from the front mounting face of the LT230 through the 42mm seal before the bearing race supporting the input gear?
What is the full depth/engagement of the spud shaft into the the input gear (from the front face of the LT230)?

[workingonit]

Vern. I think it is a good idea - just couldn't help the analogy :twisted: If the alibaba source could deliver as expected then I would probably follow you in a purchase and machining of the SAE10 and whatever spline - subject to price. But the splines would have to be cheap enough to buy several. I would prefer as little custom work as possible.

At this stage I am still thinking of buying another Outcast as 'my get out of gaol' card. But still think a field serviceable unit would be better.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Lotza, you got any other reference to HTE 571 - searched aulro and only got a reference to loctite 571. On the general web nothing after a quick scan.The HTE 571 is the replacement hub drive flanges on the Series Land Rovers. (Like the HTE 859 is the replacement for the Defender/Late Range Rover/Disco 1 drive flanges)

From reading several posts above it seems they will be 113mm not the required 120mm.

That is not to say that we couldn't get Barry to make up a special batch of flanges at 120mm with a 42mm OD seal face protrusion with the 24 spline from the HTE axles cut into the flange.

If I read correctly earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that early 10 spline Rover axles will fit into the input of the LT230.

In that case Hi-Tough Engineering, have the correct diameter shafting to make the spud shafts and also have the brooches to cut the 10 spline for the input and press fit 24spline brooches for the flange end.

Someone up in Brissy may have good contact with Barry W to discuss the situation, otherwise I have had contact with Barry and Mal going back to when Maxidrive made up some special axles to match Stage 1 CVs to ENV diffs. Barry did the machining and I have had intermittent contact with him since.

High Tough Specials wont be cheap, but they have the tooling, the experience with making shafts and having them hardened.

While I still don't like the idea of flanges and would prefer a single piece spudshaft. If HTE would do the specials for us, they would probably be reliable and cheap enough for us to carry a spare.

[Vern]

Hi Guys I'm looking for a summary of the spud shaft and thought it is time we are all in the same headspace.

If we wish to keep the original Land Rover prop shafts:
What is the space between the back of the MSA (rear cover off) and the front of the LT230?
What is the distance from the rear face of the MSA and the rear face of the MSA drive flange?
What is the pitch circle of the MSA drive flange?
What is the OD of the MSA drive flange? 120mm??
Does the mainshaft and nut protrude rearward of the face of the MSA drive flange? If yes: How much and what OD of nut?
Does the MSA drive flange have a flat face?
What is the measurement from the front mounting face of the LT230 through the 42mm seal before the bearing race supporting the input gear?
What is the full depth/engagement of the spud shaft into the the input gear (from the front face of the LT230)?can only answer number 1, 173mm for mine, AM's is 175mm. I need to remove mine to measure more accurately.
Can't answer the rest as its still in the car

[Lotz-A-Landies]

can only answer number 1, 173mm for mine, AM's is 175mm. I need to remove mine to measure more accurately.
Can't answer the rest as its still in the carSo what are you doing muching around on a keyboard! Hop to it! :D

After the issues you had recently I can fully understand your having a break from spanners.

For me this is a medium term project ~ 12 months, but I waited for several years for someone to come back online because I want it done properly.

I'm even thinking It should be a top loader adapter, (perhaps like a machine gun, where you have a belt of shafts and when one breaks, the ejector mechanism withdraws the broken one and loads a new one :eek: :D :D )

[Vern]

Waiting on a 1.222 transcase (hop to it lockee;)) which I want to trial run to see if the gearing is better and whether or not I need to change to a msa5r, as soon as I test run it, out it all comes. THEN I can measure it all up and give a bit more of a damn about all these threads:)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Waiting on a 1.222 transcase (hop to it lockee;)) which I want to trial run to see if the gearing is better and whether or not I need to change to a msa5r, as soon as I test run it, out it all comes. THEN I can measure it all up and give a bit more of a damn about all these threads:)Is that the Lockie at Mokinya we all know and love so well? Must head down there again, if I hadn't had my 83YO mum I would have run up from Colac a couple of weeks ago)

[Vern]

Wrong lockee