Land Rovers during the Snowy Scheme

[bob10]

I found this searching for info on the Snowy Scheme, because of an article in the 4WD Touring mag. which says Les Thiess, a contractor on the scheme, imported Toyota Land Cruisers to work on the site. Now I know the first Land cruiser arrived in Australia in 1958. The article says " as the work got harder, the vehicles got harder". That's a laugh, when the work started, there were no roads, no Toyotas, only Land Rovers. It's amazing how history can be twisted to suit some ones agenda. Bob


Snowy Mountains Scheme (http://www.4wdonline.com/Places/Au/SMHEA/LandRover.html)

[TeamFA]

If you stop in at the excellent Snowy Hydro Discovery Centre at Cooma, there are plenty of pics of Land Rovers used.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I found this searching for info on the Snowy Scheme, because of an article in the 4WD Touring mag. which says Les Thiess, a contractor on the scheme, imported Toyota Land Cruisers to work on the site. Now I know the first Land cruiser arrived in Australia in 1958. The article says " as the work got harder, the vehicles got harder". That's a laugh, when the work started, there were no roads, no Toyotas, only Land Rovers. It's amazing how history can be twisted to suit some ones agenda. Bob You had to get me started didn't you Bob.

The truth is that only Thiess Contracting used Toyota's in the late 1950s and into the 1960s while the SMHEC/SMHEA, NSW Electricity Commission, NSW State Forestry and the contractor Kaiser-Walsh-Perini-Raymond were using Land Rovers. In fact SMHEA were still using Land Rovers at the end on construction.

The Land Cruiser's big engine was useful but it's lack of a 4 speed gearbox was a big disadvantage.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/559.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/496.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/560.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/561.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/562.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/563.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/564.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/565.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/566.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/567.jpg

I love these ones
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/568.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/569.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/570.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/571.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/474.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/475.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/476.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/477.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/478.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/379.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/382.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/479.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/480.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/481.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/482.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/483.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/484.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/485.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/486.jpg
Who has seen snow like that at Smiggins lately

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/547.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/548.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/541.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/153.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/154.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/549.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/550.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/551.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/552.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/553.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/554.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/555.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/556.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/381.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/557.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/558.jpg

[460cixy]

I found this searching for info on the Snowy Scheme, because of an article in the 4WD Touring mag. which says Les Thiess, a contractor on the scheme, imported Toyota Land Cruisers to work on the site. Now I know the first Land cruiser arrived in Australia in 1958. The article says " as the work got harder, the vehicles got harder". That's a laugh, when the work started, there were no roads, no Toyotas, only Land Rovers. It's amazing how history can be twisted to suit some ones agenda. Bob


Snowy Mountains Scheme (http://www.4wdonline.com/Places/Au/SMHEA/LandRover.html)

Dont stress over it Tojo owners beleave everything that's spoon fed to them

[DiscoMick]

From memory, the first Landy arrived about 1949 (??) and there were thousands of them after that, including those bought by the NPWS, fire services and others, while the first Toyota didn't arrive until the late 50s and it didn't even have low range. Don't quote me on the years, but it was something like that. The Toyotas were late arrivals and minor players.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The first vehicle mentioned as being delivered to the Snowy Scheme is R06101169 for the Dept. of Workers Housing,(for Snowy Mountains Hydro Electricity Authority.) on 25/11/1949

There were many earlier vehicles sold to NSW Public Works and the Commonwealth Dept of Supply and NSW Forestry but we don't have any records for them being used on the Snowy Scheme.

We believe this was the first Landy used on the Scheme because of its colour, (and the 1950 date of the image) but don't have an identity for it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/541.jpg

It is the light green colour so is either an early 1949 or a 1948 vehicle. We know that identified SMHydro ones were deep bronze green because of their chassis numbers.

[Loubrey]

As a civil engineer and Land Rover fanatic these are gold to me!

Thanks for posting!

Cheers,

Lou

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The images come from the National Archive of Australia and are all listed as Copyright expired. If you check the image details, the NAA title has been abbreviated and contains the image number.

There are many thousands of images of the scheme accessible online.

[bob10]

Another interesting vehicle of the Snowy scheme, Bob


Thornycroft Mighty Antar (http://www.4wdonline.com/Thornycroft/Antar.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Another interesting vehicle of the Snowy scheme, Bob

Thornycroft Mighty Antar (http://www.4wdonline.com/Thornycroft/Antar.html)Once again a website with inaccurate information.

The Meteor and Meteorite engines were designed by Rolls Royce but were actually produced by the Rover Co Ltd in a technology swap when Rover engineers were having problems working with Frank Whittle.

The Meteor engine was the tank version of the Merlin. So if we call the Meteor a Rolls Royce do we call the jet engine a Rover?

[PAT303]

If you do a search on the Land Cruiser you'll only find one picture of one parked in the main road in Cooma,Series Ones and Willys did all the work. Pat

[stealth]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg


What is the vehicle in the background in that photo?

[JDNSW]

What is the vehicle in the background in the second photo?

Jeep, isn't it? Either Willys or Ford.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Jeep, isn't it? Either Willys or Ford.

JohnYes the very earliest small 4X4 vehciles on the project were in fact ex WWII GPW and MB Jeeps. The reports indicated that they were already very well worn by the time they were transferred to the project.

You can also see what looks like another Jeep in the far right of the second image of the third post in the thread. By the 1952 date of the image it would be very well worn.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/496.jpg

Remember also that many of the contractors and consultants on the projects were using their own vehicles, and this could have included war surplus Jeeps.

[wardy1]

What great pics!
I was born in 1956 (In England, made it here 1966)..... In some way I wish I'd been born earlier so that an adventure like the Snowy without roads could have been available to me. I love the Snowy, it's still a piece of paradise, but to have seen it then must have been truly awe inspiring.

[cjc_td5]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg



I don't think the background vehicle is a Jeep. The bonnet looks the wrong shape and the headlights in the wrong position relative to the bonnet? Could it be something like a Dodge Powerwagon or similar?

[JDNSW]

I don't think the background vehicle is a Jeep. The bonnet looks the wrong shape and the headlights in the wrong position relative to the bonnet? Could it be something like a Dodge Powerwagon or similar?

Bit hard to be certain, but I still think it is a Jeep. Too small to be a power wagon or similar, and I can't think of anything else similar that existed at the time. At the time, virtually the only small four wheel drives in Australia were Jeeps (all 1942-45 and ex-army), being replaced gradually by new Landrovers.

Jeeps may well have had modifications by then as well!

John

[simmo]

Fantastic time in Australia history, a great story, thanks for the photos.:)

[123rover50]

Yes thanks for the photos.
Shame to think that not one of those Tickford Station Wagons survived:(

Keith

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Bit hard to be certain, but I still think it is a Jeep. Too small to be a power wagon or similar, and I can't think of anything else similar that existed at the time. At the time, virtually the only small four wheel drives in Australia were Jeeps (all 1942-45 and ex-army), being replaced gradually by new Landrovers.

Jeeps may well have had modifications by then as well!

JohnI have a number of times thought it was an early Dodge WC series, but of late think that John is on the money with a GPW or MB.

The reason it isn't a WC: the mudguards are about the same width as the screen; and it doesn't appear tall enough.

If it were a WC it would have to be a long way down the hill to get the perspective.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yes thanks for the photos.
Shame to think that not one of those Tickford Station Wagons survived:(

KeithDoesn't Mike Bishop or Anthony Maeder have one of them?

[PAT303]

Yes thanks for the photos.
Shame to think that not one of those Tickford Station Wagons survived:(

Keith

How good would it have been if the last issue defenders were Tickfords :cool::cool::cool::cool:. Pat

[JDNSW]

Yes thanks for the photos.
Shame to think that not one of those Tickford Station Wagons survived:(

Keith

But not surprising - there were only a few of them compared to thousands of Series 1 - and heaven knows, there are not that many SMHEA Series 1s still in existence. Further, as Australians were becoming aware by the 1950s, coachbuilt bodies are not very durable in our climate, even when not used offroad.

John

[bob10]

Once again a website with inaccurate information.

The Meteor and Meteorite engines were designed by Rolls Royce but were actually produced by the Rover Co Ltd in a technology swap when Rover engineers were having problems working with Frank Whittle.

The Meteor engine was the tank version of the Merlin. So if we call the Meteor a Rolls Royce do we call the jet engine a Rover?


Rolls Royce V8 petrol engines in an aircraft? Not sure about that. I think we are talking about different engines, a v8 & a turbo-jet engine are different animals. The final Antar engine was a diesel. I suggest you have it wrong. Bob [ click on power jets W2]


"Although taxiing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxiing) trials were carried out in 1942, it was not until the following year that any flights took place due to production and approval holdups with the Power Jets W.2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Jets_W.2) engine powering the Meteor.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#cite_note-Mason_p.339-11)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#cite_note-24) Due to the delays at subcontractor Rover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_Company), who was struggling to manufacture the W.2 engines on schedule"

[stealth]

I don't think the background vehicle is a Jeep. The bonnet looks the wrong shape and the headlights in the wrong position relative to the bonnet? Could it be something like a Dodge Powerwagon or similar?

I initially thought it was a jeep but a jeep front is very distinctive at any angle. The grill is wrong although it may be a slat grill model but I agree the bonnet is wrong and the guards don't look right. I've owned a jeep for thirty years and that doesn't look right.

[bob10]

Sure you are not getting the meteor jet plane mixed up with the meteor tank? Bob




World War II & The Gas Turbin Engins

In the late 1930s, in anticipation of the potential hostilities that would become World War II, the British government started a rearmament programme, and as part of this, "shadow factories" were built. These were paid for by the government but staffed and run by private companies. Two were run by Rover: one, at Acocks Green, Birmingham, started operation in 1937, and a second, larger one, at Solihull, started in 1940. Both were employed making aero engines and airframes. The original main works at Helen Street, Coventry, was severely damaged by bombing in 1940 and 1941 and never regained full production.
In early 1940, Rover was approached by the government to support Frank Whittle (http://www.456fis.org/FRANK_WHITTLE.htm) in developing the gas turbine engine. Whittle's company, Power Jets (http://www.456fis.org/POWER_JETS_LTD.htm), had no production facilities; however, the intention was for Rover to take the design and develop it for mass production. Whittle himself was not pleased by this and did not like the design changes made without his approval, but the first test engines to the W2B design were built in an unused cotton mill in Barnoldswick, Lancashire, in October 1941. Rolls-Royce took an interest in the new technology, and an agreement was reached in 1942 in which they would take over the engines and Barnoldswick works?and in exchange, Rover would get the contract for making Meteor tank engines, which actually continued until 1964.
After the Second World War, the company abandoned Helen Street and bought the two shadow factories. Acocks Green carried on for a while, making Meteor engines for tanks, and Solihull became the new centre for vehicles, with production resuming in 1947; it would become the home of the Land Rover.

[bob10]

I don't think the background vehicle is a Jeep. The bonnet looks the wrong shape and the headlights in the wrong position relative to the bonnet? Could it be something like a Dodge Powerwagon or similar?


Or could it be a Toyota FJ25, imported by Thiess in 1958. Bob


Toyota LandCruiser FJ25 (http://www.4wdonline.com/Toyota/20.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Rolls Royce V8 petrol engines in an aircraft? Not sure about that. I think we are talking about different engines, a v8 & a turbo-jet engine are different animals. The final Antar engine was a diesel. I suggest you have it wrong. Bob [ click on power jets W2]


"Although taxiing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxiing) trials were carried out in 1942, it was not until the following year that any flights took place due to production and approval holdups with the Power Jets W.2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Jets_W.2) engine powering the Meteor.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#cite_note-Mason_p.339-11)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#cite_note-24) Due to the delays at subcontractor Rover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_Company), who was struggling to manufacture the W.2 engines on schedule"No Bob I have it correct.

Rolls Royce designed the Merlin supercharged V12 aero engine used in all manner of aircraft, Hurricane, Spitfire, Lancaster, Mosquito and even a Packard build version for the P51D Mustang.

There is also a non-supercharged V12 petrol version of the same capacity that was built by the Rover Co Ltd at Solihull. This is not an areo engine but the engine that powered the Centurion tank. Rolls-Royce Meteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor)

There is also an 8 cylinder version of the meteor engine called the meteorite that was used to power the Thornycroft Antar. The first two of the Antars on the Snowy project had the Rover petrol Meteorite but the third Antar had the later diesel powered Rolls Royce version.

There is no doubt about Rover engines being the first to work with Frank Whittle on the jet engine.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Or could it be a Toyota FJ25, imported by Thiess in 1958. Bob
Toyota LandCruiser FJ25 (http://www.4wdonline.com/Toyota/20.html)Bob

There's not a chance in the World of it being an FJ25 .

The photograph was taken in 1950.

[bob10]

Bob

There's not a chance in the World of it being an FJ25 .

The photograph was taken in 1950.


Well, I'm not going tit for tat with you. We will agree to disagree, in regard to the Antar. Just confused why you find it necessary to go over the top, when the date of the photo wasn't posted. Bob

[Avion8]

It is in fact a Defender:D Just so obvious.

[bob10]

It is in fact a Defender:D Just so obvious.


Speaking about defenders, saw one at APT today, belongs to Ben. Ex Army 110 ute, tricked up, love to have a close look at it, Bob

[PAT303]

No Bob I have it correct.

Rolls Royce designed the Merlin supercharged V12 aero engine used in all manner of aircraft, Hurricane, Spitfire, Lancaster, Mosquito and even a Packard build version for the P51D Mustang.

There is also a non-supercharged V12 petrol version of the same capacity that was built by the Rover Co Ltd at Solihull. This is not an areo engine but the engine that powered the Centurion tank. Rolls-Royce Meteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor)

There is also an 8 cylinder version of the meteor engine called the meteorite that was used to power the Thornycroft Antar. The first two of the Antars on the Snowy project had the Rover petrol Meteorite but the third Antar had the later diesel powered Rolls Royce version.

There is no doubt about Rover engines being the first to work with Frank Whittle on the jet engine.

Old Henry also cut 4 cylinders off the RR Merlin and sold it under the Ford name. Pat

[PAT303]

The vehicle might be modded also,it could be a jeep with the guards cut back to give wheel clearance. Pat

[caebryn]

[QUOmany landrovers and such hard workers ,series 1TE=Lotz-A-Landies;2305154]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/474.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/475.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/476.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/477.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/478.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/379.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/10/382.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/479.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/480.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/481.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/482.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/483.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/484.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/485.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/486.jpg
Who has seen snow like that at Smiggins lately[/QUOTE]

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Well, I'm not going tit for tat with you. We will agree to disagree, in regard to the Antar. Just confused why you find it necessary to go over the top, when the date of the photo wasn't posted. BobHi Bob, if you thought about reading my posts you would find that I stated that the images come from the NAA and that the filename includes a the image number, abbreviated information and date.

We shouldn't have to go tit for tat. Rolls Royce didn't make petrol V8 meteorite engines, only Rover made them.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[bob10]

Hi Bob, if you thought about reading my posts you would find that I stated that the images come from the NAA and that the filename includes a the image number, abbreviated information and date.

We shouldn't have to go tit for tat. Rolls Royce didn't make petrol V8 meteorite engines, only Rover made them.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/497/1000991ao6.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2852/33948760fm5.jpg


A much nicer way to get your point across, thank you. BTW, great photos. I still think we are talking about the same thing. Bob

[123rover50]

Doesn't Mike Bishop or Anthony Maeder have one of them?
Not to my knowledge.
MB,s went through Champions of Adelaide.
AM,s through Grenvilles to a documented private buyer.
The Snowy ones that went through Grenvilles were 076, 338, 339, and 334.
Those four seem to be lost so far
I have forgotten where this came from but the total number of Tickfords that came to Australia was 15 .and apparently all 1950 models
I thought you had all this info.

Keith

[stealth]

The vehicle might be modded also,it could be a jeep with the guards cut back to give wheel clearance. Pat

It probably is a jeep as there is nothing else anyone seems to know of that it could be for the period. The picture is just not clear enough to see why it looks odd.

Pat, the last thing a jeep needs is more wheel clearance. They are famous for throwing mud in your face when the front wheels are in the right (or wrong?) direction

[bob10]

So this is a Tickford. Learn something every day, Bob


http://youtu.be/Fnoecg0oP5c

[bob10]

It probably is a jeep as there is nothing else anyone seems to know of that it could be for the period. The picture is just not clear enough to see why it looks odd.

Pat, the last thing a jeep needs is more wheel clearance. They are famous for throwing mud in your face when the front wheels are in the right (or wrong?) direction


An early example ,the front looks similar, Bob


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/467.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg


zoomed it to 250, probably not similar. [edit]

[JDNSW]

The post-war civilian Jeeps in the time frame we are talking to were unheard of in Australia. Currency controls ensured that it was almost impossible to import dollar area goods without a special permit - which would not be issued for this sort of vehicle.

The earliest one I recall seeing dated from the late fifties and was imported with integrated wireline bore logging equipment in about 1961. It was left hand drive, as would have been all the wartime Jeeps used on the Snowy scheme. In fact, I am not sure that Jeeps were made in RHD until assembly started in RHD countries - early sixties for Australia I think.

John

[PAT303]

Looking at the photo it seems very low to the ground,maybe it's a 2wd,the reason it's parked on the side of the track and not following the S1?,so after seeing all the photo's who wants a series 1 in their driveway?,good to see I'm not the only one. Pat

[JDNSW]

Looking at the photo it seems very low to the ground,maybe it's a 2wd,the reason it's parked on the side of the track and not following the S1?,.... Pat

Maybe its bogged?

John

[BathurstTom]

I blew it up about as much as I could without it getting too pixelated. I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a guess.


Tom.

Ok, image now bigger.

[JDNSW]

Still looks like a Jeep to me!

John

[stealth]

The windscreen looks like a jeep but the hood is too full and gives the wrong profile. As stated the bonnet looks wrong as at that angle it should look flatter. Headlights are wrong and unless it is a slat grill model, you should see more detail in the grill. Then there is the bumper which looks a lot wider than 100mm. But it probably is a jeep because there is nothing else it could be. UGO? Unidentified Ground Object!!!!

[JDNSW]

The hood may be non-standard, but also may be being bellied up by catching the wind. For the rest, I think you may be trying to read too much into an image that is at the limits of resolution.

John

[stealth]

Nah that would blow his hat off!!!

[Don 130]

What is the vehicle in the background in that photo?

Not one of these (http://www.toyota-global.com/company/history_of_toyota/75years/text/taking_on_the_automotive_business/chapter2/section8/images/l01_02_08_02_img08.jpg) is it?
I don't know if they were used in Australia but the profile looks similar to me.
Don.

[wrinklearthur]

Dodge Power Wagon?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/253.jpg
.

[JDNSW]

Not one of these (http://www.toyota-global.com/company/history_of_toyota/75years/text/taking_on_the_automotive_business/chapter2/section8/images/l01_02_08_02_img08.jpg) is it?
I don't know if they were used in Australia but the profile looks similar to me.
Don.

Only if they had a time machine. The Toyota BJ only started production in 1953, although prototypes existed in 1951. As pointed out earlier, the photo is dated 1950.

And as far as I know the earliest Toyota four wheel drive to reach Australia was in 1958. While it is possible earlier examples made it to Australia, it is very unlikely - even in 1958 anti-Japanese sentiment was still very strong, and only desperation and long delivery times for Landrovers drove Theiss to go Japanese.

John

[wrinklearthur]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/233.jpg

[Discofever]

The issue was that the project needed more Land Rovers and Land Rover couldn't get them out fast enough. SMHS looked elsewhere and asked Japan to supply and they developed the Land Cruiser. Completely designed to meet Australian conditions.

[JDNSW]

The issue was that the project needed more Land Rovers and Land Rover couldn't get them out fast enough. SMHS looked elsewhere and asked Japan to supply and they developed the Land Cruiser. Completely designed to meet Australian conditions.
No. SMHEA did not use Landcruisers until long after Theiss (one of their contractors), and then only a few of them.

And the Landcruiser was not designed to suit Australian conditions either. It was designed to meet a Japanese police requirement, and only later modified to be more suitable for export. As late as 1965, when I first used them, they had a number of features that showed a lack of Australian input into design, including lousy steering and upholstery and seats that did not stand up to Australian conditions even in the short term. Although even then, comparison of the manuals with the actual vehicles showed significant modifications for Australia, for example, sixteen inch wheels, and a chassis extension (as with the Landrover 120 later) to the cab/chassis FJ45.

It is possible that the introduction of a two speed transfer case with the FJ-40/45 in 1961? may have resulted from Australian input, but it is worth noting that a four speed gearbox and a diesel did not appear until the 1970s, long after there was substantial demand for them here, and almost twenty years after Landrover offered a diesel.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The issue was that the project needed more Land Rovers and Land Rover couldn't get them out fast enough. SMHS looked elsewhere and asked Japan to supply and they developed the Land Cruiser. Completely designed to meet Australian conditions.
Where do these myths come from?

The records show that SMHEA purchased in batches but there were plenty of capacity to supply SMHEA, numerous other government departments as well as private buyers. If there were shortages in supply Rover Co wouldn't have expanded its distribution base to towns an cities across the country including many small rural towns such as Braidwood and Grenfell. They would have conserved the supply for the major government customers.

As I stated before SMHEA were still buying Land Rovers at the end of the scheme construction phase in the 1970s and as John has said SMHEA Land Cruiser were few and far between, particularly before the LC received the 4 speed gearbox.

[JDNSW]

Where do these myths come from?
.........

Mostly from Toyota, but they may have a basis in fact, however slim.
Rover was unable to meet demand for Landrovers until well into Series 3 production, if not later. Hence, despite increasing numbers being shipped to Australia (as elsewhere), demand was still above supply, leading to long lead times for orders, despite the fact that supply was expanding, just not as fast as demand. This would have been exacerbated by the first ADF orders of 1958.

But SMHEA had been buying Landrovers for almost ten years by then, had a good handle on their needs and the delivery times, and would undoubtedly have placed orders so that they were available when needed.

Theiss, on the other hand, having landed a major contract, and having no significant background in buying Landrovers, could not expect early delivery.

John

[Jeff]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/233.jpg

Could it be something bigger like a 6x6 GMC? The WW2 one has a narrower bonnet, but the 1950s model has the wide bonnet, even though it is not very likely, I even google images searched for NR Mack and OY Bedford.

Jeff

:rocket:

[wrinklearthur]

Ref; Landrover Specials (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Specials/)

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Specials/PICs48/forest.smhea1.jpg


This picture comes from the Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Authority archive. It is not known if this was a "proper" Forest-Rover or a locally built special [-LA].
.

[wrinklearthur]

Ref; Landycam -REMLR (http://www.remlr.com/dm_landycam2.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/201.jpg


Here's a pic from Cooma's Landy graveyard. Both chassis have a few front-end mods, one has coil springs, both have homemade radiator panels. SMHEA custom jobs? Spotted any other clues?

[wrinklearthur]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/207.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/208.jpg
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Mostly from Toyota, but they may have a basis in fact, however slim.
Rover was unable to meet demand for Landrovers until well into Series 3 production, if not later. Hence, despite increasing numbers being shipped to Australia (as elsewhere), ... While I cant absolutely refute some of this information, I can state that throughout the 1960s and into the 1970s the vehicles in almost every batch* took two to three months to be dispatched between the first vehicle dispatched and the last. In fact SIIa vehicles were still being sold in 1973 a year after the SIII was first produced.

If there were shortages of supply and back orders the vehicles would have all been dispatched within days of each other.

However I will accept that there may have been delays in getting some variants because of the batch system where they only produced a single variant and then changed to a different variant.

I didn't look at the series one dispatch books but I believe there would be similar patterns in dispatch.

* Batches vary from 6 to 24 or more vehicles but most are batches of 12 vehicles

[Jeff]

Ref; Landycam -REMLR (http://www.remlr.com/dm_landycam2.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/201.jpg

What motor is in that one closest to the camera? It looks too curvy on top for a Holden and 'wrong sided' for a Falcon, and too early for a Hemi.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What motor is in that one closest to the camera? It looks too curvy on top for a Holden and 'wrong sided' for a Falcon, and too early for a Hemi.

Jeff

:rocket:Is it a grey Holden?

[Jeff]

Is it a grey Holden?

Pretty sure it isn't a grey, they have a cap with breather in the centre on the rocker cover. It could be a red with a bashed about rocker cover maybe to clear the firewall. Looks to be leaning over too, but given the condition it might not have run that way.

Jeff

:rocket:

[wrinklearthur]

What motor is in that one closest to the camera? It looks too curvy on top for a Holden and 'wrong sided' for a Falcon, and too early for a Hemi.

Edit it's not a Chevy ! More likely a lent over red Holden, there is a PCV and the rubber grommet that it fit's into, the same position as a Holden engine.

Hi Jeff

I think it's a fifties Chevrolet Blue flame six cylinder, given the modification to the front of the chassis for the length.
The colour of the rocker cover is another clue , it's loose and laying towards the carby, that carby looks like the type fitted to the Chevy engines.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/194.jpg
.

[Discofever]

Where do these myths come from?

The records show that SMHEA purchased in batches but there were plenty of capacity to supply SMHEA, numerous other government departments as well as private buyers. If there were shortages in supply Rover Co wouldn't have expanded its distribution base to towns an cities across the country including many small rural towns such as Braidwood and Grenfell. They would have conserved the supply for the major government customers.

As I stated before SMHEA were still buying Land Rovers at the end of the scheme construction phase in the 1970s and as John has said SMHEA Land Cruiser were few and far between, particularly before the LC received the 4 speed gearbox.

I was told this about 20 years from my Subi mechanic who used to do some work on an old Brumby I had in the early 90s. He was a bit of an automotive historian so I didn't question it. He also stated that he used to work for Land Rover. I was quite young and probably naive to such things and I must admit that when I was told I thought that Land Rover missed a massive opportunity (assuming he was right of course).

[JDNSW]

......
If there were shortages of supply and back orders the vehicles would have all been dispatched within days of each other.

......

Not necessarily - vehicles may well have been allocated to dealers well ahead of time but not actually dispatched for quite some time after they were actually ready, for all sorts of reasons. These could include transport, slow paperwork, customer agreements etc. But as they were already allocated, they could not be sold to new customers.

(An extreme example of this sort of thing is Minerva's experience with CKD kits - 80" were still being dispatched to Minerva long after the 86 was in production, much to Minerva's concern, because they had been manufactured and stockpiled to meet the entire Minerva order back in 1950?.)

Today there is a tendency to forget how business was carried out fifty or sixty years ago, when nearly all communications were by surface mail, vehicles were mostly dispatched by rail (remember state regulations forbade the use of road transport where a rail service existed until about 1960) and "just in time" had never been heard of, and having to order vehicles years ahead was normal in the post-war car shortage situation..

John

[PAT303]

Remember too LR was being bled dry,all it's profits were being used to cover BL losses at the time so LR had nothing in the way of capital to make more vehicles or invest in a larger support net work.I'd like to know who and why they modded those LR's with the Blue Flame motor. Pat

[Jeff]

A lot of people might be thinking of the 70s Land Rover shortages and mixing it up with earlier times. Industrial action in British factories was a cause for much of these delays and reading 1970s magazines is as much the cause of Land Rover losing market share as anything else.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I was told this about 20 years from my Subi mechanic who used to do some work on an old Brumby I had in the early 90s. He was a bit of an automotive historian so I didn't question it. He also stated that he used to work for Land Rover. I was quite young and probably naive to such things and I must admit that when I was told I thought that Land Rover missed a massive opportunity (assuming he was right of course).Land Rover missed numerous opportunities. Particularly when they were merged into the disasterous British Leyland Corp.

In the 1950s The Rover Co Ltd had Rover engineers embedded within the Polo Flat workshops of Grenville Motors and the SMHEA and many innovations were developed from there. In the late 1960s early 1970s with BLMC Land Rover stopped listening to consumer needs in Australia and like other marques in the BL conglomerate, they were all starved of funds. At the same time the various marques were not forced to rationalise major assemblies like engines so they could benefit from economies of scale. e.g. there were 998 cc 1100cc and 1275cc, 1500 cc and 1800cc BMC engine, 2500 and 3000cc V8 Triumph engines, 2000cc 2286cc, 2600cc, 3500cc V8 Rover engines as well as many others all in cars. They could have reduced this to half the number.

In 1970 Land Rover had all the design and tooling to build the coil sprung V8 county, this would have meant a single transmission facility and a single engine facility for all Range Rover and 109 Land Rover production. Both models could have shared a common front axle and the Land Rover 109 could have had the drum braked Salisbury these could have achieved significant economies of scale. Instead we were given the SIII at the same time that Toyota Landcruiser fitted the 4 speed and market share shifted from Land Rover being the market leader in Australia to Toyota taking market leader position in the 4WD class, something it has never relinquished.

There were most certainly shortages of Land Rover with the introduction of the 110. The PMC factory at Enfield NSW was tooled up to commence production of the 110, instead they closed the factory and Land Rover dealers were unable to get any vehicles to fil orders for over 12 months.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Remember too LR was being bled dry,all it's profits were being used to cover BL losses at the time so LR had nothing in the way of capital to make more vehicles or invest in a larger support net work.I'd like to know who and why they modded those LR's with the Blue Flame motor. PatWhat's a blue flame motor?

[V8Ian]

What's a blue flame motor?
A six cylinder Chev engine, very similar but larger than a Holden 'Grey' motor. The Holden version was developed from the Blue Flame.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

That's the Blue Flame motor I know about, what I don't know about is a Land Rover blue flame motor.

[PAT303]

Sorry,a bit of confusion,I was talking about the photo's of the series LR's that had lengthened chassis and fitted with what looks like BF motor in the Cooma grave yard. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

The irony is that, the Toyota six cylinder engine was a copy of the six cylinder Chevrolet engine which the Blue flame engine was developed from.

The catch with that photo I posted was, it has a PCV valve showing when the Chevrolet engine with that style rocker cover only had the sump breather pipe.

Just to complicate things, there is a Ford engine that has it's carby on the left hand side and painted the same colour blue as the previous photo, that was fitted to the fifties F100 pickup.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/01/171.jpg
.

[Jeff]

I think the dizzy is too far forward on the Ford, more likely a red painted blue, maybe a reco or maybe to fool the rego authorities. :)

Jeff

:rocket:

[JDNSW]

Remember too LR was being bled dry,all it's profits were being used to cover BL losses at the time .....Pat

The Leyland merger was not until 1967 (and Leyland problems did not really start until a few years after that) - we are talking about a decade earlier. But Rover was always a small, independent manufacturer, and were always capital constrained. Which really explains a lot of Landrover features, from the colour of early Landrovers on.

John

[DiscoMick]

This is taken from Wikipedia's entry on the Toyota Land Cruiser:


J20, J30 (1955?1960)[edit]


J20/J30

FJ25 Land Cruiser.jpg

Overview


Also called
Toyota Bandeirante (Brazil)

Production
1955?1960

Assembly

Toyota City, Japan (ARACO)
S?o Bernardo, Brazil (Toyota do Brasil)


Body and chassis


Body style

2-door softtop
2-door hardtop
2-door pickup truck
5-door station wagon


Layout
FR layout

Powertrain


Engine

3.4 L B I6
3.9 L F I6


Dimensions


Wheelbase

2,285 mm (90.0 in)
2,430 mm (95.7 in)
2,650 mm (104.3 in)

1955 ? The Second generation, 20 Series was introduced. It was designed to have more civilian appeal than the BJ for export reasons. It also had more stylish bodywork and a better ride thanks to longer four-plate leaf springs which had been adapted from the Toyota Light Truck. It had a more powerful 135 PS (99 kW) 3.9 L six-cylinder Type F gasoline engine, but still only had a three speed gearbox. The interior of the vehicles were made more comfortable by moving the engine 120 mm (4.7 in) forward. The 20 Series still had no low range, but it had synchromesh on the third and fourth gears.[citation needed]
1957 ? A 4-door Station Wagon was added as the FJ35V on a 2,650 mm (104.3 in) wheelbase. Land Cruisers were first imported into Australia by B&D Motors as FJ25/28 cab chassis with Australian made bodies.[9] They were the first Japanese cars to be regularly exported to the country[10] and a few were initially used in the Snowy Mountains Hydroelectric Scheme, by sub contractor Theiss Constructions.[11]

This is also interesting on LR's role in the SNowy Mountains, if you read ot the bottom:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=XI18AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=Land+Rover+SNowy+Mountains&source=bl&ots=qR0vQYy8PZ&sig=t2R4OQZ3dA36wBSStuxZSR-WlyU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2dvKVIr8A8668gXj-oLgBg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Land%20Rover%20SNowy%20Mountains&f=false

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wikipedia, hmmmm

Synchromesh on 3rd and 4th gear???? Were they thinking about Land Rover, or should it have said synchro on 2nd and 3rd gear? Land Cruiser were still 3 speed through most of the 1960s

[JDNSW]

Wikipedia, hmmmm

Synchromesh on 3rd and 4th gear???? Were they thinking about Land Rover, or should it have said synchro on 2nd and 3rd gear? Land Cruiser were still 3 speed through most of the 1960s

The Landcruiser without a two speed transfer case had a four speed gearbox with first so low that it was not used in normal driving. These were exceedingly rare in Australia, but the first Landcruiser I ever saw was one, in 1962, on a station south of Prairie. Its clutch failed while attempting to reach the main road after heavy rain.

John

[Melbourne Park]

My understanding vis a vis Toyota, was that Thiess bought some and found them reliable. My memory of stories is that the Land Rover lacked power on steep grades. A decent six was a benefit. I wonder if Land Rover had put the Wolseley's Lightning Six (an excellent motor IMO) into a LandRover, what might have happened to their Australian sales? Didn't many Land Rovers ended up with owners putting Holden sixes in them?

Since Toyotas were not sold in Australia, Thiess managed to become the importer for Toyota. They (Theiss) sold their first in the late 1950s. The Land Cruiser is supposed to be the first Toyota vehicle that was profitable. Eventually I think Toyots funded inventory for Theiss. Toyota got involved in assembly at the AMI plant in Port Melbourne. Toyota would buy the AMI plant (where various assembly was made including Mercedes, I think Morris and Wolseley maybe ... Rambler etc. ) Toyota then bought out Thiess car wholesale operation. Toyota left Thiess with the trade type vehicles including the Landcruisers - called then Thiess Toyota. Eventually Toyota took over that Thiess commercial operation as well.

Toyota people say that much of the development for the Landcruiser has been in Australia because of the first exports of Toyotas were due to the LandCruiser via Thiess. Also the first profitable Toyota vehicle was the Landcruiser. Other innovations for Toyota world wide also followed various innovations in Australia's marketing of Toyotas.

Meanwhile the British auto growth was in comparison poorly managed, and restricted in various problematic ways.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

My understanding vis a vis Toyota, was that Thiess bought some and found them reliable. My memory of stories is that the Land Rover lacked power on steep grades. A decent six was a benefit. Didn't many Land Rovers ended up with owners putting Holden sixes in them?

....While the Toyota six was a benefit the lack of 4 speeds was a disadvantage as they had to go down to low range. Its a bit of swings and roundabouts.

The reason that many Land Rovers originally got Holden motors, in spite of their disadvantages, was that you could get a fully reconditioned Holden engine for a couple of hundred dollars (much less in the pounds days) where the cheapest you could get a Rover motor reconditioned was over a thousand dollars.

Remember the grey Holden engine was only 2.17 litres or 2.26 litres against the Land Rover 1.6 litre, 2 litre or 2.28 litre.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I've read those four-speed with no low versions were the first Landcruisers sent to the Snowy, so they wouldn't have been much use. I think they were only used to transport workers around the better roads. So, don't be fooled by the Toyota propaganda - Landcruisers didn't do much that was important on the Snowy - it was the Landies that did the heavy lifting.

[Melbourne Park]

While the Toyota six was a benefit the lack of 4 speeds was a disadvantage as they had to go down to low range. Its a bit of swings and roundabouts.

The reason that many Land Rovers originally got Holden motors, in spite of their disadvantages, was that you could get a fully reconditioned Holden engine for a couple of hundred dollars (much less in the pounds days) where the cheapest you could get a Rover motor reconditioned was over a thousand dollars.

Remember the grey Holden engine was only 2.17 litres or 2.26 litres against the Land Rover 1.6 litre, 2 litre or 2.28 litre.

The Toyota six was 3.9 litres! And the motor and crude gearbox was reliable.

I visited the Snowy Mountains scheme on a tour, in 1964. The project was still not finished. I did a tour. I was in 6th grade. I saw quite a few four wheel drives. Including a white Land Cruiser - it was pristine. I queried about it after the lunch and the Bus driver told me what it was. He also said that it had a great engine, and that the Land Rovers were gutless. I remember it well. I still feel the shock now!

And the large mess hall type place where we had a big hot workers lunch. It was a cheap temporay building, there was snow here and their outside on the large car park area, and the inside of the building had many tables and you got a tray and went around the edges and chose your food which was served onto your plate by very efficient staff. It was very advanced!!! I felt almost grown up.

I recall what was said back then - that the Landcruiser had a great engine for getting up the steep grades. The impression I recall, was a level of limitation concerning the Land Rover. Strange really - at the same time, another Uncle who had Jaguars - criticised Mercedes Benz, because as he said back then - "They having nothing under the bonnet". Back then, engines were a big deal.

At the same time, my Uncle had a BMC dealership ( and his father ie my grandfather had the first Ford dealership in Melbourne), and he thought the Japanese stupid, and he loved the British. A few years later though, he would not love the Marina motor car ... I was taught to drive in a Morris 1100 (or to change the gears actually) and I got my license in a Mini. I asked him a few times about the Japanese - he never wanted to sell Japanese vehicles. He said back then: " Mr Honda has thrown away his chopsticks ". He laughed at his joke - he then explained that the Japanese motors did not have pushrods. But really - it wasn't very funny if you sold English motors.

It wasn't the work the Landcruiser did though in the Snowy Scheme - it was the image they created of reliability and power, backed up evidently by a different image that the work horse Land Rovers seemed to gather. Perhaps unfairly?

I recall too, a part of the Tour, we visited a very large Damn, I think at Tumut, and the company that built it, got a 1 million dollar bonus (a huge amount back then) for completing the dam one year earlier than promised. I don't recall if Theiss was involved in building that dam - but time was definitely money back then, and Theiss valued the Landcruiser very much. The boss of Theiss then went to Japan and got the agency. And Thiess backed their agency up with parts availability, because most sales were intended for mining and agricultural ie commercial use. With very high costs to repair a Land Rover engine, and their smaller capacity, its no wonder that Thiess who backed up the product with good parts support, grew the product.

I think Land Rover and BMC etc., did not think the same industrial way as Thiess did. And Thiess's thinking flowed on into Toyota's philosophy. Then again, Toyota had capital to play with thanks to the USA, unlike with British firms.

A shame really ...

For some time, English cars were subsidised by our Aussie government. For instance, the Bristol car - which cost the same as a Rolls Royce in the UK - was heavily subsidised when sold to Australians, from our own Government! It was some kind of ex war benefit to the Mother Country. I don't know if Land Rover got any such benefits ... I think things changed a fair bit though when Holden and Ford setup here. And then Chrysler. The British suffered more and more IMO ...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Many of us toured the Snowy Scheme during the construction phase when we were children, some like myself multiple times, those of us who were alive that is. Some of us, when we got our licences toured again on our own as young adults in our Land Rovers. I remember well driving on the restricted SMA Roads to Happy Jacks and the Eucumbeine Portal through to Khancoban and to Talbingo. I even remember sitting around the campfire in the early 1970's with LROCS members who worked on the scheme, reciting their experiences with the Land Rovers and Land Cruisers.

So if we must recite memories, my recollections are different to yours.

BTW: Rover Co Ltd was never part of BMC. Rover Co Ltd was merged with Leyland Motor Corporation in 1967 a year before British Motor Corporation was merged into Leyland, although you are correct, when Rover Co Ltd merged with Leyland they stopped listening to Land Rover customers in Australia. Something that Toyota never did.

Land Rover were not invented/designed when Holden's were building bodies for GM. In fact Holdens were a saddlery in Melbourne in the 1890s, started building motor bodies before WWI and became a GM subsidiary in 1931. Ford Geelong a subsidiary of Ford of Canada from 1925, has a different history but similarly were building cars in Australia before WWII.

[Melbourne Park]

Land Rover were not invented/designed when Holden's were building bodies for GM. In fact Holdens were a saddlery in Melbourne in the 1890s, started building motor bodies before WWI and became a GM subsidiary in 1931. Ford Geelong a subsidiary of Ford of Canada from 1925, has a different history but similarly were building cars in Australia before WWII.

I reckon you used that poor Wiki for your research!!!! Holden were an Adelaide start-up. And Holdens are still (barely) being assembled in Adelaide, due IMO to the Holden connection. Fisherman's bend (in Port Melbourne) had the brains though ...

IMO its a reality, that Landcruiser won a reputation from its limited Snow Mountain endeavours. Its very likely due to Thiess, who would have spun a thread into a weaving mill from their limited use of only a few vehicles. But even back then, the rumours were there, because I experienced them. And it was easy to build upon, because people liked bigger motors back then. And even now, Discovery drivers are amused by the lack of performance of Prados etc. etc. And back then, probably Thiess focussed on support it seems and I would not be surprised and IMO likely spread some false rumours.

As far as bodies go, lots of bodies for Model T's had my Grandfather's name on them. In those days, you went to for instance James Flood, and they'd build the body for you. Hence the body would end up with the following: body by "Smith", and the actual builder i.e. James Flood was the body builder. I guess that at some time, Ford took over the commissioning of bodies for their Model T.

I am guessing, but I presume that Holden became an exclusive builder for GM vehicles or perhaps one family of them. Its easy to buy out such a business, by offering to buy them out, and also advising that if they don't sell, then they'll (GM in Holden's case) would withdraw all their body building work. A simple choice: no more work from the company you do all your work for, or sell out.

I think the monocoque has made things cheaper, and is much praised in our disposable society. IMO in a lot of ways, not better.

Apologies for wandering way off topic.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think you are falling into the myth created by Toyota's advertising gurus in the 1990s.

Toyota won its reputation from the 1970s onwards when they built reliable 4WD that the market wanted, it had very little to do with the Land Cruiser's use by one contractor on the Snowy Scheme, even though that contractor was Theiss. Prior to the 1970's there was still a significant reluctance to buy Toyota and Nissan because of "what the Japs did in the War" remember the old WWII solders were still in their 40s and 50s at the time.

Yes I did check Wiki, for dates, because I knew Holdens were a saddlery before being a car body builder and then changed the city.

[JDNSW]

I was in charge of an exploration crew in the Simpson Desert for almost two years in 1965-6, when Toyota was beginning to have an impact on four wheel drive sales.

The company I worked for bought us a fleet of new Landcruisers for the contract. As i owned a Series 2 at the time I was interested to compare the two.

The Landcruisers were not noticeably more reliable than Landrovers - some of the problems included regular breaking of wheel studs (to the extent that they all carried a few spares in the glovebox), continual carburetter problems, alternator failures, clutch failures. The steering was appalling due to bad engineering or the relay (later changed). Seat frames and upholstery failed to withstand hefty Australians and Australian sunlight.

My own company car was a FJ45V, the station wagon. This, with its short (104") wheelbase, long overhang, and single acting rear shock absorbers, was, I think, the roughest riding vehicle I have ever ridden in. It is also the only vehicle I have ever had break a spring through all leaves on a single bad bump! And the bodywork just fell to bits.

Compared to the Landrover, there were however some significant advantages, at least in some models. The traybacks with a 121" wheelbase and a one ton capacity were simply bigger and more useful. The wider track gave a better turning circle.

Disadvantages included that lack of four gears, low range was much higher than in a Landrover, and that could be a problem when you needed a creeper gear.

Some of our more adventurous people claimed that the swb soft top, with the hood off and windscreen folded, could do near enough to 100mph. Despite lousy steering and rather small unboosted drum brakes. Accident rates were generally higher than for Landrovers.

Like Landrovers, they had the petrol tank under the seat - but unlike Landrover, it was inside the body - so that any fuel leak would be inside the vehicle. We lost one swb hardtop that way. As far as I know the burnt out remains are still there.

Motor manufacture in Australia; Australia banned the import of fully built cars in 1914, to deal with shortages of shipping in WW1. But then kept this after the war. There were already a number of coachbuilders in the country, and one was Holden in Adelaide. Ford, while still using other bodybuilders, started assembling cars in Geelong in the mid 1920s, and gradually went to building bodies as well.

Holden, while still building bodies for a variety of mainly US manufacturers, received a capital injection from GM in the 1920s. They were already building pressed, all steel bodies for Chrysler by the time GM introduced this style of body in the late 1930s, by which time, as a result of the depression, GM held a majority of the shares (remaining Australian shareholders were bought out as the company geared up for production of the 48/215, a Chevrolet that had not gone into production in the US, due to the war).

As Diana pointed out, there was still a lot of anti-Japanese (and for that matter anti-German) sentiment in Australia into the 1960s and even beyond. My father would never even consider a Japanese car, for example - and he was still buying cars in the 1960s and 70s.

For an insider's view of the Holden story, a good read is "Big Wheels and Little Wheels", L.J.Hartnett, 1981.

John

[Melbourne Park]

Like Landrovers, they had the petrol tank under the seat - but unlike Landrover, it was inside the body - so that any fuel leak would be inside the vehicle. We lost one swb hardtop that way. As far as I know the burnt out remains are still there.


As Diana pointed out, there was still a lot of anti-Japanese (and for that matter anti-German) sentiment in Australia into the 1960s and even beyond. My father would never even consider a Japanese car, for example - and he was still buying cars in the 1960s and 70s.


John
The fuel story reminds me of European plumbing. In France, the plumbing is outside the building, because its easier to access. In Germany, they keep it inside, because it doesn't freeze. An attitude difference there ...

Concerning Holden, I think by 1931 they were a subsidiary.

And about anti-German and anti-Japanese. True with many. But in the mid 1950's, Bugs were being assembled at Clayton. By 1967, almost the whole car - even the engine - was made there. VW Clayton even developed a vehicle for Australia, which resembled the BMC Mini Moke.

And don't forget the Snowy Mountains workers. Many from Southern Europe. They had no anti Europe bias for their cars. Hence the popularity of VWs. VW's plant in Clayton Melbourne started to assemble Datsuns, and was bought by Nissan eventually, after VW pulled out (the Golf was badly made IMO although reliable if one disregards paint fade).

There was a lot of assembly of vehicles in Australia, and lots of different auto companies. And for a long time.

doug

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Doug

Many of the things you say are true, however the Germans mostly abided by the Geneva Convention on the treatment of Western Allies Prisoners of War and very few Diggers suffered adversely by the hands of German or Italian prison guards The Japanese ignored the Geneva Convention, worked, starved and beat allied prisoners, many to death, murdered unarmed Australian nurses and never acknowledged the facts. Even today, when the war is mentioned, Japanese will remind people of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs, but omit the actions of their own troops.

This was a reason people would drive German but not Japanese cars for many decades.

Diana

[JDNSW]

.......
And about anti-German and anti-Japanese. True with many. But in the mid 1950's, Bugs were being assembled at Clayton. By 1967, almost the whole car - even the engine - was made there. VW Clayton even developed a vehicle for Australia, which resembled the BMC Mini Moke.

And don't forget the Snowy Mountains workers. Many from Southern Europe. They had no anti Europe bias for their cars. Hence the popularity of VWs. VW's plant in Clayton Melbourne started to assemble Datsuns, and was bought by Nissan eventually, after VW pulled out (the Golf was badly made IMO although reliable if one disregards paint fade).

There was a lot of assembly of vehicles in Australia, and lots of different auto companies. And for a long time.

doug

There was never a real anti-European bias - it was specifically anti-German, and as Diana has pointed out, this was nowhere near as intense as anti-Japanese bias. But to some extent you are right - the European immigrants were not as knowledgeable about the Pacific war, and hence not as anti-Japanese. When I bought a VW as a teenager, one of my aunts commented that it smelled of gas ovens.

The VW was successful because it was durable (as shown by its performance in early Redex trials) and because, unlike almost every other car on the market, especially anything comparable, it had a heater.

When the VW was introduced the market was dominated by Holden (over 50% of all sales), with only one model, and a wide variety of English cars, selling in very small numbers except for Morris and Austin, a small number of European cars, mainly Fiat, Renault, Peugot, Simca, Citroen, Borgward, a larger number of locally assembled variants of US cars, mostly Ford and Chriysler. Imported US cars were virtually unheard of because of dollar restrictions, and that most US cars were not made in RHD.

Import and shipping restrictions meant there were very few fully imported cars, and these only in general luxury ones. Most cars sold in Australia had been locally assembled since 1914. As you point out, this means that local assembly has been going on for a long time, with a wide variety of manufacturers. Large scale, fully imported cars did not appear until around 1980, as protection for the local industry started to wind down.

John

[S3ute]

Hello from Brisbane.

Forgetting for the moment Land-Rovers, jeeps, PowerWagons, tojophobia and piston envy, and returning to the historic photographs that started the thread. The scheme huts have a bit of a history too.

You occasionally spot remnants of these in the most unlikely places - the last one that I came across was perched near a cliff in the hills between Eungella NP and Collinsville in northern Queensland.

You have to wonder how it got there and why. The present owner didn't know, but it came from the scheme.

Cheers,

[Killer]

When I was a kid we had a farm that ran off the Murray Valley Highway, the SMA were often moving their buildings along that road. They managed to knock out the overhead phone lines on a regular basis.

Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

The Landcruiser without a two speed transfer case had a four speed gearbox with first so low that it was not used in normal driving. These were exceedingly rare in Australia, but the first Landcruiser I ever saw was one, in 1962, on a station south of Prairie. Its clutch failed while attempting to reach the main road after heavy rain.

John


In the 1950's and early 1960's my late uncle was the Overseer on the Dingo Fence, based at Smithville on the SA/NSW border. He had one of the first Toyota Landcruisers as a trial vehicle. He always said it was very powerful but lacked the performance of the Land Rovers and used a lot more juice!


Cheers, Mick.

[JDNSW]

........ He always said it was very powerful but lacked the performance of the Land Rovers and used a lot more juice!


Cheers, Mick.

In the middle of 1966 I drove my 2a diesel from the Simpson to Sydney. Averaged about 30mpg, with one stretch in S.A. an outstanding 36mpg.

Six months later (spent Christmas night at Augathella from memory) I drove the company FJ45V from Alice Springs to Brisbane. Average was about 9mpg, and the other FJ45V travelling in convoy with me averaged 6mpg. An FJ40 travelling with us averaged 12mpg. (I did almost as well driving an IH R190 (petrol) on the same trip a month later) As I mentioned above, carburetter problems were an ongoing hassle with these Landcruisers.

Note that diesel Landcruisers did not appear for about another decade.

John

[Carzee]

Haven't noticed these on this thread as yet:

[wrinklearthur]

1953 year 80", it has no canvas triangular flap on the door top as the outside handle was factory fitted.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/land-rover-history/91012d1424596926-land-rovers-during-snowy-scheme-dr-berents-cabramurra-1956.jpg
.

[Carzee]

+
my personal fav:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/216.jpg


others

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/192.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/194.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/217.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/218.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/219.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/220.jpg

[Carzee]

This is Theiss, well into the Tumut II contract, in June 1959. How does this fit in the toyota marketing timeline.. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/215.jpg

[Carzee]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/194.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/195.jpg
"In 1955 the American construction company KWPR... working on the Adaminaby earth fill dam in the Snowy Mountains. The job, expected to take 15 years, was finished in three, with teams working three shifts every day."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/obituaries/mountains-were-not-his-only-highs-in-life/2006/07/14/1152637865960.html

The K was not for Kosciusko - here is a Landy with a Kosciusko 'badge' and in 1966 its not yet a National Park.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/196.jpg

[B.S.F.]

K.W.P.R , most likely Kaiser Walsh Perini Raymond the main contractors on the Snowy. .W.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

+
my personal fav:
<image removed>

others

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/192.jpg

<5 images removed>We saw this image earlier.

Note the Grenville Motors plate on the front LHS mudguard. These were only fitted on late 1949 and early 1950 Land Rovers and had disappeared by late 1950.

A very collectable item! :)

You can see the same plate in these images shown earlier in the thread

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/153.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/154.jpg

[digger]

We saw this image earlier.

Note the Grenville Motors plate on the front LHS mudguard. These were only fitted on late 1949 and early 1950 Land Rovers and had disappeared by late 1950.

A very collectable item! :)

You can see the same plate in these images shown earlier in the thread

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/152.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/153.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/154.jpg

Diana, I have same plate fitted to front pass side guard same spot on a `50
delivered through Champions of Adelaide.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana, I have same plate fitted to front pass side guard same spot on a `50
delivered through Champions of Adelaide.Hi Digs

I bet yours doesn't say "Grenville Motors"! ;)

[digger]

Hi Digs

I bet yours doesn't say "Grenville Motors"! ;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/151.jpg

I should've known there was a catch!!

:)

[wrinklearthur]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/151.jpg[/img]

I should've known there was a catch!!

So which badge is the more rare one and where's the picture of the Grenville Motors badge?
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Now there's a task for me! :o

[101 Ron]

What is the vehicle in the background in that photo?

The vehicle is in fact a slat grill WW2 Jeep.
The metal roof fitted to the vehicle proves it as it is domed slightly.
Post war jeeps had a slightly higher windscreen to give the driver more head room.
Any hard roof conversion of a WW2 jeep needed the roof higher than what the standard canvass was to save the drivers head.
The number plate is in a typical position for a WW2 jeep post war.
The RHS mud guard can not be seen due to the blokes hat and the other side guard is not seen cause front on there is little to see of a front edge of a WW2 jeep mud guard anyhow.

Dodge powerwagons were extensively used and most were fitted with a step side rear body.( many pictures of these)
Most other vehicles were normal 4x2 drive trucks of the time.

Very early Toyotas used a F110 motor and a 4 speed gearbox with a deep first gear for off road work.
The same motor and gear box was used in both the landcruiser and FQ10/15 one tonne 4x4 truck and a 6x6 2.5 tonne truck which was a Japanese versions of the American M37 and 2.5 Deuce army trucks .
Having a little to do with a FQ15 the early Landcruiser should have been well made and reliable, but lacking in certain design aspects ......ie stiff suspension.
The japs learnt from their mistakes and landrover didn't and the rest is history.

[Carzee]

Serendipity today. (We drove Perenties down to the back of Jindabyne delivering batteries (8 x 67kg each veh) for a solar pwr setup.)

Had brekky at Bredbo. We ate in the carpark beside the Monaro Hwy. A ute pulled up and an old gentleman walked around the Perenties and then we chatted.

This gent was aged and still driving a workute but he said he was a retired Land Rover mechanic who did his apprenticeship with LR, starting in 1951 I think he said. The garage down the road (he meant Cooma) worked on Hydro LRs and "was part of Grenville Motors." (?)

He commented that most weeks they fitted 8 to 10 reconditioned diffs. They fixed them after removal and always had plenty in stock ready for a repair order. He said they did engines like that as well. He said "The early engine Landy was the best, unstoppable climbing rough hills", and "the second engine had more HP but the same gearbox and other parts -it wasn't up to it", and "The new one wouldn't go most places the first one would. It wasn't done right."

"The Landcruiser changed a lot of buyers minds. It didn't get so dusty inside. The japs had a proper door hinge, they took the time, and the seal rubber worked, Land Rover's fitting was very basic and the Landcruiser was almost posh like that, the door shut properly. Then they (LR) came out with a ball and spring on a pin and they still didn't work well enough."

We talked about axle splines and diffs some more and then we went on south.

Oh the diffs began a few comments about Rover P3s. He said "Not many on the site knew it but SMHEA owned three P3's. Hudson had one but why did he need three? No one ever found out. Right from new there was a rattle under the passenger floor somewhere. I did warranty work and I spent hours and hours pulling out me hair and never did find out the cause. I'd ask the chauffer about it and he said he couldn't hear a rattle. It must be another driver. I could hear it plain as day, I wasn't dreaming, and the office had a complaint in but I got no help with it from the drivers and gave up. They all had the same rattle. Years later when they put me in charge it came back to haunt me, it was a curse."

[Watto]

I may be reviving and old thread, but here goes.

I am doing a story on the Snowy Mountains Scheme Land Rovers for the next issue of The BMC Experience.

I have tracked down a stack of info, but one thing that I am still confused about is the number of Land Rovers used by SMA.

In Noel Gough's book, Mud Sweat and Snow, Bert Knowles says 715 Land Rovers were bought between November 1949 and December 1966. The implication is that they stopped buying Land Rovers in December 1966.

The first Land Cruiser owned by the Snowy Scheme (as opposed to Thiess) was bought in 1967.

However, I saw somewhere on this thread a figure of 1300+ (can't recall exact figure) and that SMA was buying Land Rovers right up to the end of construction, which was 1974.

Bert Knowles said that when the Land Cruiser became available to SMA in the late 1960s they stopped buying Land Rovers.

So, can anyone (Diana?) tell me exactly how many Land Rovers were bought by the SMA (not including other bodies like police, forests, SEC, etc)?

Also - in 1997 The Snowy bought one Defender 110 and four Discos (2 each three-door and five-door). Does anyone know what became of these and does Snowy Hydro (as it is now called) still have any Land Rovers on its fleet?

Thanks, Watto.

[DiscoMick]

I may be reviving and old thread, but here goes.

I am doing a story on the Snowy Mountains Scheme Land Rovers for the next issue of The BMC Experience.

I have tracked down a stack of info, but one thing that I am still confused about is the number of Land Rovers used by SMA.

In Noel Gough's book, Mud Sweat and Snow, Bert Knowles says 715 Land Rovers were bought between November 1949 and December 1966. The implication is that they stopped buying Land Rovers in December 1966.

The first Land Cruiser owned by the Snowy Scheme (as opposed to Thiess) was bought in 1967.

However, I saw somewhere on this thread a figure of 1300+ (can't recall exact figure) and that SMA was buying Land Rovers right up to the end of construction, which was 1974.

Bert Knowles said that when the Land Cruiser became available to SMA in the late 1960s they stopped buying Land Rovers.

So, can anyone (Diana?) tell me exactly how many Land Rovers were bought by the SMA (not including other bodies like police, forests, SEC, etc)?

Also - in 1997 The Snowy bought one Defender 110 and four Discos (2 each three-door and five-door). Does anyone know what became of these and does Snowy Hydro (as it is now called) still have any Land Rovers on its fleet?

Thanks, Watto.
I don't know the answer, but I had the impression the 1300+ included forestry, police etc.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I may be reviving and old thread, but here goes.

I am doing a story on the Snowy Mountains Scheme Land Rovers for the next issue of The BMC Experience.

I have tracked down a stack of info, but one thing that I am still confused about is the number of Land Rovers used by SMA.

In Noel Gough's book, Mud Sweat and Snow, Bert Knowles says 715 Land Rovers were bought between November 1949 and December 1966. ... <snip>
Thanks, Watto.This question is not as easy as one would think.

The Grenville records are hand written then photocopied and then scanned, accessing the numbers will be a time consuming task.

Further to that as has been said, not all Land Rovers on the scheme were purchased directly for SMHEA. Some were owned by NSW Forestry and others were NSW Electricity Commission and still more were owned by individual contractors, such as Kaiser Walsh Perini Raymond. There were five vehicles dispatched to a local agent Monaro Trading prior to the first vehicles sold to the SMHEC which could have been "used" on the scheme. There are also ten 1949 models sold to the Commonwealth Dept of Supply, where we don't know the destination federal agency, these could also have been used on the Snowy Scheme.

The first batch of vehicles we know went to the SMHEA were a batch of six 1950 model vehicles to the Dept. of Workers Housing on 28/11/1949. Given their chassis numbers these would have been painted deep bronze green and yet we know from the National Archives (image no. 4240211) at least one 1948 model in sage green was used on the scheme.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/870.jpg

The scheme was officially completed in October 1972, when the scheme went into the operational phase. The successor company Snowy Hydro is an unlisted company, therefore vehicle purchases since October 1972 should not be considered as part of the scheme. It is also possible that purchases late in or after completion may well have been purchased directly from the local Cooma Rover/Land Rover dealer P.D. Murphy or another local company Monaro Trading.

As I already said to Watto, it will take time to compile the answers.

[cripesamighty]

It would be nice to have a definitive (or as close to) answer for how many Land Rovers were actually used on the scheme with a breakdown of whichever operator (private/government/contractors, etc) used them. That way it may help combat the Toyota 'advertorials' that the Land Cruiser built the Snowy Scheme, forgetting that few were used and only late in the piece.

Good luck with the fact finding and compilations - a VERY worthwhile endeavour. I will definitely be keeping an eye on this thread!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It is already known that hundreds of Land Rovers were owned and used by the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electricity Authority in the 9 years before the first Land Cruiser was purchased by a minor contractor Thiess for use on the scheme. In that period all the major surveys, site access roads and worker camps were built with the help of Land Rover and a variety of trucks and other non-Toyota vehicles.

[DiscoMick]

http://www.4wdonline.com/Places/Au/SMHEA/LandRover.html

Another member (Bytemark - thanks mate) posted this useful link elsewhere so I'm just adding the link here to preserve it for future reference.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just remember that Anthony Maeder's article is at least a dozen years old (from my first reading it) and the comments that were contemporary when first published are well out of date today. Particularly the comment about the fire engines, in fact Anthony owned one of those Land Rover fire engines and sold it about 15 years ago, so I suspect the article may actually be as much as a quarter century old.

[incisor]

i just received this via email


Your listing of early Land Rovers on the Snowy Scheme includes a welder equipped pre production 1950 Land Rover deliverd June 1950 This vehicle was allocated to the Plant engineer Pat Mullens,I was his assistant and driver. The Lincoln welder was for me to do running repairs on machinery in the regions this saved a lot of down time and cost the alternative being for the machine to be taken to the plant workshop at Polo flat Cooma for repair.I was responsible for the care & maintanace of the vehicle. This of course was at the very beginning before the road network had been built the access was rough, the Land Rover did a terrific job & never let us down regardless of conditions. If anyone knows the location or any information on this Landy I would like to try to find it to restore . Thank you Jim Pearson (Port Macquarie)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

i just received this via emailIt would be worthwhile contacting 260 AC, he has one of the welders from the Snowy Scheme. Don't know if it is the same one though.

[86mud]

There are some great photos in this thread. Thank you for posting

4wd Action did a DVD a long time ago and they stated that Toyota helped build the Snowny Mountains scheme.....what a load of rubbish!

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I remember that; it was just poorly-researched Toyota propaganda.

[1950landy]

One of the old guys in the Qld Rover Car Club was an engineer on the SMS , when he was alive he was telling me the Land Rover wading across the river in the photo's was his. He gave me a tow pin off the vehicle I have passed it on to a guy who owns one of the SMS S1's.

[DiscoMick]

Here's what Land Rover itself has to say about the role of its vehicles in the Snowy Mountains Hydro scheme:
http://www.landrover.com.au/vehicles/defender/defender-journeys/defender-journey-details/56aa0a7c0a0c1a12c8e7284c.html

[Bryn]

Saw this ad and thought it might be relevant
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/denmark/cars-vans-utes/1966-series-iia-forward-control-land-rover/1159695416

Rare 1966 Forward Control Land Rover (Series IIA) for sale. One of only 400 brought in to Australia for Snowy Mountains Scheme. Needs full restoration but comes with additional Series IIA LWB Landrover with reconditioned motor.

[Dieseldrinker]

145431 145432 145433 145434 145435 145436 145437
Hi guys,

I’m new to this thread but am very interested to find out whether the 1957 109” I am currently restoring was used on the snowy scheme and see if there are any further details that can be located.

Chassis number is 123701060 and the original NSW reg number was AZZ 678. The sales records indicate that it was sold to the ‘Elect Commission’ which I’m taking to be the Electricity Commission.

The truck was discovered on a deceased farmers property in Goulburn NSW a couple of years ago and came to the UK in January this year. I’ve had it since June and am in the process of restoring it. A tray back has been fitted at some point in its life and I plan to keep that and I’m also taking it back to its original grey paint.

When I bought it the Land Rover was painted bright yellow, which is a colour I’ve seen painted on a Toyota used on the scheme. When I removed the yellow paint from the drivers door there was evidence of a circular emblem with signs of pale green paint, very similar to that on the SMA logo.

From reading this thread it sounds like there may be a register kept if the vehicles used on the scheme so I wondered if somebody would be able to check if my vehicle is listed on there please. Even better, whether any photos exist of it in its original form.

Hope somebody can help. Many thanks.

[Dieseldrinker]

To correct my previous post I’ve now found tha5 the circular logo was present on both doors.

[DiscoMick]

I don't have that information, but from memory if you go through the Snowy Mountains thread here there is someone who has access to the records.

[JDNSW]

Most if not all Snowy Series 1 Landrovers were short wheelbase.

If, as seems to be documented, it was sold to the Electricity Commission, this would seem to preclude its use in the Snowy Scheme, although it could possibly have been used peripherally.

The electricity commission was a customer of the SMHEA, after they started to generate power (I can't readily find when this started, but I suspect it was after Series 1 ended - the project was completed in 1972).

The Electricity Commission of NSW was formed in 1950 and took over power generation and some distribution across the state. I expect the Landrover was bought by them as they started to expand the distribution of power into rural areas.

[Dieseldrinker]

Thanks John, though I'm not convinced all Land Rovers used on the snowy were short wheelbase. I've certainly seen photos and videos that show long wheelbase series 1s on the project, though in what capacity they were used is unclear.

Whilst the circular logos on the doors hold one level of interest, the more photos I see of various vehicles on the scheme used by contractors I think the yellow that the vehicle was over-painted has some significance. It does seem to be the same shade of yellow used on contractors vehicles and I wonder that whilst the Electricity Commission may have been the first owners it may have had a subsequent use by others.

My curiosity continues, if anyone has access to documents that might hold the key.

Steve

[Dieseldrinker]

Not sure if these photos have been shared before in this thread as I can't see all of them (photobucket not responding) but I've been running through the photographs in the NAA records and turned up theses photos. I can't help wondering if any of the LWB series 1s in these photos might be mine in its previous life.

146393146394146395146396146397146398

[PJJ]

Still looks like a Jeep to me!

John
Hi Gents.

I know this reply is a bit on the late side but here's my two Bobs worth -

The vehicle a the bottom of the slope is definitely a Jeep.

The significance of the Photo is not the Jeep or the Landy, It's Sir William Hudson standing on the left of the bogged Landy!

The photo was taken in 1949 & this is a track coming up from Tumut Pond.

The photo was one of many on display at Cabramurra in the Complex Hallway. Still is I think.

Hope this clears things up a bit!


Phil

[DiscoMick]

I wonder if the yellow was Forestry Commission or some other government department which operated in the region at the time.

[JDNSW]

Most, if not all, Commonwealth Departments painted their Landrovers yellow, or earlier, orange (at least I think I have those colours the right way round).

[Bigbjorn]

Many govt. depts and councils to this day paint 4WD's and plant in a visibility yellow or orange. Forestry in Qld painted their s in a sort of beige which I was told was a colour that did not appear naturally in a forest so made the vehicles/plant stand out. I can't remember the name of the colour.

[B.S.F.]

OT I know but those Antar trucks, of which the SMA had three bring back memories. On uphill runs only, they used them in tandem (as in the pictures). In undulating country they had one at the front and one at the back.Those square things on the trucks are lumps of concrete to provide traction. The load in the pictures appears to be transformers.
.W.

[S3ute]

Hello from Brisbane.

I was approached by someone recently who has acquired a long wheel base Series 1 truck and had been told that it was ex-SMA. He asked me if there was some way of confirming that with the serial numbers etc.

I don’t have a clue but would be happy to get help on the original question.

Cheers,

Neil

[russellrovers]

Most, if not all, Commonwealth Departments painted their Landrovers yellow, or earlier, orange (at least I think I have those colours the right way round).hi my april 49 is orange ex pmg or telecom jim

[DiscoMick]

Hello from Brisbane.

I was approached by someone recently who has acquired a long wheel base Series 1 truck and had been told that it was ex-SMA. He asked me if there was some way of confirming that with the serial numbers etc.

I don’t have a clue but would be happy to get help on the original question.

Cheers,

NeilI'm afraid its not just as simple as tracing SMA, but could also be other organisations in the area such as RFS, NPs, Police and Forestry.

[JDNSW]

hi my april 49 is orange ex pmg or telecom jim

In 1949 Telecom did not exist, and all PMG vehicles were Red. But it could have been OTC, the other ancestor of Telstra. Orange would work for them.

[russellrovers]

In 1949 Telecom did not exist, and all PMG vehicles were Red. But it could have been OTC, the other ancestor of Telstra. Orange would work for them.when i cleaned the chassi that was the colour who is otc jim

[JDNSW]

Overseas Telecommunications Commission managed Australia's overseas telecommunications. It was merged with Telecom Australia to form Telstra. Telecom was the telephone arm of the Postmaster General's Department.

All part of the privatisation of telecommunications in Australia.

[scarry]

Many govt. depts and councils to this day paint 4WD's and plant in a visibility yellow or orange. Forestry in Qld painted their s in a sort of beige which I was told was a colour that did not appear naturally in a forest so made the vehicles/plant stand out. I can't remember the name of the colour.

I remember the SWB series 2 and 3 Land Rovers that the forestry guys had on Fraser island late 60's,and early 70's were all that beige colour.They were all soft tops.We actually have some pics of them somewhere but can't find them ATM.
No winches or anything,just bog standard.
In those days they used to service them themselves on the island.PArts were flown in by plane,on occasions the plane would circle very low and drop parts instead of landing.
The shorties were pretty good in the sand,they out did the LWB models,company vehicles that my father had at the time,all day.

We used to,as kids,get sick of digging,winching,and more digging,getting the LWB vehicles out of the soft sand.
For those that know the place,even up around Middle Rocks was a winching exercise.
How things have changed.

[goingbush]

Hi guys,

I’m new to this thread but am very interested to find out whether the 1957 109” I am currently restoring was used on the snowy scheme and see if there are any further details that can be located.

Chassis number is 123701060 and the original NSW reg number was AZZ 678. The sales records indicate that it was sold to the ‘Elect Commission’ which I’m taking to be the Electricity Commission.

The truck was discovered on a deceased farmers property in Goulburn NSW a couple of years ago and came to the UK in January this year. I’ve had it since June and am in the process of restoring it. A tray back has been fitted at some point in its life and I plan to keep that and I’m also taking it back to its original grey paint.

When I bought it the Land Rover was painted bright yellow, which is a colour I’ve seen painted on a Toyota used on the scheme. When I removed the yellow paint from the drivers door there was evidence of a circular emblem with signs of pale green paint, very similar to that on the SMA logo.

From reading this thread it sounds like there may be a register kept if the vehicles used on the scheme so I wondered if somebody would be able to check if my vehicle is listed on there please. Even better, whether any photos exist of it in its original form.

Hope somebody can help. Many thanks.

Hey Mate , did you ever find some one with access to SMA records ?

I am restoring a LHD 1952 Dodge Power Wagon, I believe to be an ex Snowy, and have drawn a blank in my search for records. I was referred to Anaminaby Hydro museum who can't help, nor can various Hydro History Facebook pages . My chassis number is in only 105 different to a known SMA DPW , no one else was importing in 52-53 . A RHD batch of DPW were assembled here in '57-58 .

I have heard from a good authority the records were discarded as the vehicles were disposed of, but theres always hope.

The black & white picture is a 52-53 DPW , would love if it turns out its mine. Did they have to logo on both doors? mine is only on the left door.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116323656_3156829304398838_4782854026154311239_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=07e735&_nc_ohc=vZKqVNp1-hcAX8cKuBq&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=b237f4aaee60cdae873b5c423adec475&oe=5F67D186


https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116582086_3156835281064907_2084358955837248194_o.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=07e735&_nc_ohc=UnU9M0fxFCIAX_CH4tu&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=6974a1b62dca0bfc3c8fcdee6e750010&oe=5F640367


https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/118056533_3202215296526905_7393249547532201611_o.j pg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=07e735&_nc_ohc=DZAzemFJZF8AX-oSFpa&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=45946393007ca9eb4ab2d3dc4269304e&oe=5F64442C

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116797577_3158706560877779_4312798986826620212_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=0LWjPlDR7SUAX9uvMNg&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=127fc1f57b081bd4f70004d0600929c9&oe=5F66FB41

[scarry]

Had a quick look through this thread,couldnt see this anywhere,so thought i would throw it up.



Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/paul.barry.7543/posts/10226211125762147?notif_id=1637410651153656&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif)

[101RRS]

Had a quick look through this thread,couldnt see this anywhere,so thought i would throw it up.



Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/paul.barry.7543/posts/10226211125762147?notif_id=1637410651153656&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif)

No good - have to log onto Facebook.

[scarry]

No good - have to log onto Facebook.

So those with an account can see it?

I dont know how to throw it up any other way?

Hang on,just had a brian wave,try this.


Snowy mountain project landrover promotional film - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_QwzDyL4-g)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

For a number of years previous I had regular drinks with a married couple that worked for the Snowy for many years, they lived at Cooma and drove up to work each day during that building stage..

[JDNSW]

As I have probably mentioned earlier in this thread, my first two Landrovers, Series 1 and Series 2, were both directly ex-SMHEA.

[4bee]

So those with an account can see it?

I dont know how to throw it up any other way?

Hang on,just had a brian wave,try this.


Snowy mountain project landrover promotional film - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_QwzDyL4-g)


How is Brian's wave any different to anyone else's, is it a bit Regal like or limp wrist-ed perchance, maybe a Defender Wave?


I love those old fillums & the commentary, the Wilkes lads certainly didn't realise what a winner they were on.

Thanks Paul,( or is it Brian this week?)

[scarry]

I love those old fillums & the commentary, the Wilkes lads certainly didn't realise what a winner they were on.

Thanks Paul,( or is it Brian this week?)

Had a good laugh at the comment about the outback being no place for finicky vehicles,or those that demand complicated maintenance.[bigrolf]

How things have changed in 60yrs.[bighmmm][biggrin]

Brian[tonguewink][bigrolf]

[JDNSW]

The change seems to have happened as long ago as the 1960s. I have two Series 2a Owner's manuals. First one is dated 1962, and has 124 pages, including a foldout maintenance schedule and a diagram of exactly where all the maintenance points are, and detailed maintenance instructions.

The 1970 version has 44 pages, including a four page 'Service Guide' - which spends four pages explaining in detail why all maintenance should be carried out by the dealer. It also has seven introductory pages (title pages contents etc) before any content, compared to three pages in the earlier one.

[gromit]

Just caught the end of Building The Snowy doco series on SBS Wednesday night.

It's showing the building of original Snowy Scheme and Snowy 2.0, saw a few Series I's.

Building The Snowy | SBS On Demand (https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/building-the-snowy)



Colin

[4bee]

Just caught the end of Building The Snowy doco series on SBS Wednesday night.

It's showing the building of original Snowy Scheme and Snowy 2.0, saw a few Series I's.

Building The Snowy | SBS On Demand (https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/building-the-snowy)



Colin


It also mentioned that there were 700 LR on the job. No wonder they were on long waiting List for Private buyers!

I understood it was an 8 part Series.

[gromit]

I understood it was an 8 part Series.

Yes, it was the end of the first part I saw on Wednesday night. I'll catch up online.

The 700 Land Rovers on the scheme over the years is mentioned earlier in this thread I think.


Colin