Question for the sparkies

[towe0609]

I'm looking at buying a welder. The options seem to open up if I have a 15A socket, which I don't have.

I did however recently decommission an electric hot water system, and the wiring has been taped and simply poked under the house.

Could I get an electrician to install an outdoor 15A socket, and then I could just run a 15A extension to the shed when I need to use the welder (I'm willing to trade off the inconvenience of this for the savings of electrical work).

I've looked in the box and there is a dedicated 25A switch for the Hot Water which was Day and Night on options. It is currently switched to off.

Thanks in advance.

btw please don't bother suggesting filing down the 15A plug and plugging it into a 10A socket - I've read all the arguments about that

[scarry]

If it is 2.5mm cable or larger and is definitely a dedicated circuit,you will be fine.

You will need a heavy duty extension lead.

How long will the lead be?

A very long lead will cause problems.

A sparkie would have to bypass the day night unit as well,just run directly to the 15a plug.

[Homestar]

Sounds doable with what you describe. As mentioned, if the run is a long way, you may get a bit of voltage drop. What length extension lead would you need?

EDIT - just done the voltage drop calculation based on a fully loaded 15 amps (which it would rarely/never be) and 21 ish metres is about your limit while keeping your voltage drop below 5%. That's based a a 1.5mm conductor size (common size for a 15 amp extension lead). At 12 amps, using the same sized lead, you can go to 29 metres. That's assuming minimal loss in the hard wired circuit that is already in your house, but if that is a long run, take a bit off or let us know the actual run length and the conductor size.

[scarry]

Or you could use one of these HD extension leads,if needed.

http://www.powersafe.net.au

[Homestar]

Yep, that's a kick arse lead - 2.5mm for the 15amp jobbie - no issues to be had using that. :)

[towe0609]

Would this be OK

30 metre Blue 20amp Lead 15amp Plugs Ordinary Duty 240V Extension Lead Test & Tagged for the Caravan / RV (http://www.extensionleadsaustralia.com.au/store/30m-20amp-15amp-2-5mm2-240v-extension-lead-blue-20amp-test-tag.html)

[BadCo.]

How far is the end of the old hot water feed from the switch board? (ie cable run length)

How far is the end of the old hot water feed to the garage? (ie the shortest length a extension lead would need to be?)

As Scarry said, is it a 2.5mm2 (minimum) dedicated cable?

If we have this info we can give you a better answer. In short, that lead may be to long.

Also your sparky will obviously have to changed that 25A MCB to a 16A one.

We need more info! :D

[towe0609]

It is a dedicated cable, and while I haven't checked I expect its 4mm2 given its a 25A MCB at the box. The existing wiring to the old HWS would be 15-20m long.

The run from the HWS (where I plan on putting the 15A outdoor outlet) to the garage would be min 10m and up to 20m depending on where I'm working.

[Vern]

Tim, the mcb will need to be changed to an rcbo as you will be installing a socket outlet. Sing out if you need a hand, we work in traf a fair bit so only around the corner

[scarry]

Would this be OK

30 metre Blue 20amp Lead 15amp Plugs Ordinary Duty 240V Extension Lead Test & Tagged for the Caravan / RV (http://www.extensionleadsaustralia.com.au/store/30m-20amp-15amp-2-5mm2-240v-extension-lead-blue-20amp-test-tag.html)

Looks like 2.5mm,so would be fine:)

[Mercguy]

Ideally your *fixed* Tariff 33 wiring from the MDB to the hot water will be rated 32A, 6mm sq conductors. or 20A 4mm sq.

Depending on when & where the house was built - it is more than likely not the case if the house is really old.

2.5mm sq is the minimum conductor size for 15A as others mentioned. But why bother with that for a welder?

If you can only run single phase, then put in a dedicated 20A or 32A point. It's not expensive - you just need the correct conductor size - and you may already be lucky with your hot water service.... it may be a 4mm sq - enough for a 20A or 6mm sq enough for a 32A feed. You should have your sparky check it for you if you are unsure.

If the cable is already correctly rated, then you simply install an appropriate breaker in the MDB and the correct rated outlet on the end of the cable. - but first....

Couple of other things:

1. If the MDB switch is actually 25A, there should be a breaker or a fuse rated for the Hot water matching it. The wiring should also already be 4mm sq. Check it.
Commonly it was a ceramic 20A fuse, later a 20A breaker. Not many 25A fuses or 32A breakers these days but if there is, then luck is on your side, assuming the cabling standards were/are adhered to. It's more common to see 20A breakers in MDB's - mostly for stove / fridge / power. Anything more will have a dedicated single run - in accordance with AS/NZS 3008.1.1:2009

If the existing cable is appropriately rated , a single IP66 rated outlet should be installed if outdoors. Also, it is important to not install any other outlets on the circuit.
By law, the circuit is supposed to be on earth leakage. This causes problems with a lot of welders**. It is not uncommon for arc welders to trip an ELB when starting the arc, and some older MIG equipment can do the same. So.... to ELB ot not to ELB, that is the question...

I'm not an advocate of running a circuit without ELB these days, but if the home owner were to *cough* DIY, and the welding point was sufficiently marked as not being on earth leakage - or better still, used an IP rated enclosure with round pins instead fo standard flat ones - it all helps - then so long as they are aware that there is no extra protection from ELB - again so long as no other points are wired into that circuit (very important)

suggest that if you decide to use a blade type plug - use clipsal 56P320F,
but preferably a round pin style:
20A 250V
56P320(round pins) 56P320F(flat pins) 56PA320(round angled) 56CSC320

Round 32A industrial. Orange - best choice to stop other people from attempting to use an unprotected outlet.
32A 250V
plugs:
56P332 56PA332 56CSC332

Outlets:
56C320(20A round) 56320F(20A flat to match the 56P320F plug) 56C332 (32A round)

use the clipsal catalogue as your reference, order from L&H or whoever your preferred supplier is (schneider):
http://updates.clipsal.com/clipsalonline/Files/Brochures/I0000116.pdf

http://www.olex.com.au/eservice/Australia-en_AU/fileLibrary/Download_540224625/Australasia/files/Industrial

The hot water is likely to still be on an RF mag switch - hence separate meter & hard wired connection for hot water (QLD - tariff 33), which will need to be disconnected from the meter and RF switch and back into the main bus by a licensed electrical contractor.

Bottom line...

If you can work with live mains voltages (DANGER) in the back of the MDB, then you need to disconnect the RF & mag meter, move the circuit & breaker to the main distribution bus for the Tariff 11 meter.

Every state has different requirement specifics, so the smartest thing to do is get your sparky mate to come around, and hook up the circuit onto the main meter for you. Don't kill yourself trying to do it, let your Sparky do it for you :angel:

If you run a nice big fat 3 core 6mm sq feed from the desired location of the outlet, to the back of the meter box, your sparky will be happy and hook it up and test it for you. It will ensure you get enough juice to power a giant tesla coil, or at least more than enough for a welder. If you go to the trouble of doing that, fit a round pin socket rated to 32A, and then it prevents others from using it as a household outlet.

It's not a difficult job, but there are some dangers involved. Also, in some states it is illegal to work on a meter box without removing the pole fuse first.

Check with your sparky first, before you decide to do anything, for your own safety. You never know how good the existing wiring is until it's checked.....

I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the manufacturers mentioned above. I simply have used their products in a number of installations before and found them to be robust and reliable.

Electrical Safety should be your main concern.

[Vern]

All under control mercguy, the sparky just hasn't made it this week, had a few emergency break downs this week, sorry about that Tim:(. See you early next week:)

[roverrescue]

Lots of good advice in this thread especially above

but just check your welder first.
"EDIT - just done the voltage drop calculation based on a fully loaded 15 amps (which it would rarely/never be"
Is far from the truth. I run two different single phase units, the Lincoln 250 old school transformer MIG and the flash new 275A inverter pulse MIG have input currents of 25A. Obviously this is at full output but I often weld in the 200A bracket and would very often be buying up over 20A from the power board

I run them off "15A" circuits as in a 15A dedicated power outlet however the circuits are specced and rated and CB at 32A.

I would spec the welder then give those maximum input currents to your sparky mate to do the maths and wiring on.

Steve

[roverrescue]

Actually talking MIGs my experience says buy the biggest 1ph240VAC machine you can and be done with it.

Saves doing what I did which was buy a chinky baby machine, after 6 months upgraded to a 175A Unimig, got sick of banging off the overheat and terrible wire control so finally wised up and bought what I should have in the first place a Lincoln 250 with external wirefeed. Means I can keep the transformer away from the grinding dust, wirefeed unit hangs on a gantry so have access across the shed.

The inverter Pulse MIG is for Ally and is a temporary addition but would be happy with it as my only option.

S

[towe0609]

Thanks all for the fantastic advice ... and no worries Damien ... no rush.

Here is a picture of the relevant bits of the board.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=89962&stc=1&d=1422523776

[Vern]

Simple, will just disconnect the off peak switch, remove the 20a breaker and install a 20rcbo, bigger if cable allows, then a 20a weather proof gpo at the other end, then you can use whatever lead you wish:)

[Hoges]

does that mean you can only use it "off peak"..I thought off-peak "switch" was some sort of electric signal activated by the elec. company to the mains meter...

[BadCo.]

does that mean you can only use it "off peak"..I thought off-peak "switch" was some sort of electric signal activated by the elec. company to the mains meter...


Simple, will just disconnect the off peak switch, remove the 20a breaker and install a 20rcbo, bigger if cable allows, then a 20a weather proof gpo at the other end, then you can use whatever lead you wish:)

So in short, there won't be an off peak switch so no, he can use it when ever :)

[V8Ian]

Recently I swapped tubes on two domestic fluros. Each fitting can hold two tubes, but both had single tubes, one yellow one white. I swapped the tubes in the fittings. One worked straight up, the white one didn't.
I've put two new starters (thanks Bunnings) in that fitting, no go. I've tried three different tubes, but all they do is flash. Are there differentially rated starter caps? Could the ballast be the issue? Are ballasts replaceable or is it cheaper to replace the entire fitting?

[RANDLOVER]

Yes there's two common sizes of starters 4-22 and 4-65 watts. Also what size are the tubes as IIRC I've had trouble with the 3 foot tubes as there are 28, 32 and 36 watt ones and they seem to need to be matched to the ballast. Ballasts usually work or they don't except for the electronic/dimmable ones which can be weird.

[V8Ian]

The tubes are 1200mm. I've just seen two different starters on the Bunnings site, but no description apart from a part number or any specifications. I'm not sure what I bought.

[RANDLOVER]

This one ST111 is best to buy as of more universal use being 4 to 65 watt. Osram Fluorescent Tube Starter - 2 Pack - Bunnings Australia (https://www.bunnings.com.au/osram-fluorescent-tube-starter-2-pack_p4320433)

[Blknight.aus]

it might also help (to save you running the lead if its raining or its some other small job) to get one of the amphibians from bunnings, its got a 10A plug an rcd/breaker and a 15A socket, I carry one to use when I dont need to wind the power up all the way and cant be bothered to run the lead to a 15A supply.

[V8Ian]

Fixed it, bought two LED tubes and starters. :BigThumb:

[BradC]

Fixed it, bought two LED tubes and starters. :BigThumb:

I did that on my fitting in the garage. It was an electronic ballast with no starters. I ended up removing the ballast entirely and fitting a couple of "starter" sockets. The LED tubes came with "starters" which really are just fuses, so I wanted to put those in-line.

Of course if it's an old fitting with a real ballast and starters then it's much cleaner upgrade. I must say I'm happy with both the colour and output of the LEDs.