Reverting to Standard Suspension

[DaveA1963]

G'day all,

My "new" D2 has had aftermarket suspension fitted at some juncture and it is STIFF! [biggrin]

Am I correct in assuming that this is basically a Rangie underneath? My memories of driving an early 2-door were a magic carpet ride, amazing axle articulation and BODY ROLL. I was very happy with the first two traits and terrified (initially) by the latter. Once I realised it wasn't going to tip over, I was fine :p

As standard, do Discos have the same amazing capacity to absorb bumps? Do they also have lotsa' body roll? I could live with the latter, but the present buckboard ride just doesn't cut it for me.

Mine still has the air bags in the rear, so I'm thinking this rough ride might be down to the shocks? I really must crawl underneath and work out what the heck they are. It also has yellow coils on the front.... Dunno' what they are either!

Anyway, any advice/feedback would be muchly appreciated.

[nismine01]

Yes no.

Yes they absorb bumps well, does it have ACE?
If unsure check under bonnet, P/S reservoir has two partitions OK, or look at your front stabiliser/sway bar, if there are hydraulic rams attached = no sway.

Cheers

Mike

[lewy]

I have well used standard suspension on mine except for the compressor,welcome to take it for a drive to compare

[DaveA1963]

Hi Mike,

No, only a single cap on the reservoir, so looks like it's non-ACE.

I'm assuming that the rear air bags are standard, so the only thing I can think of that would make the rear stiff is very stiff shocks. The front could be a combination of stiff shocks AND springs, as they both look to be aftermarket.

Thanks for that offer Lewy. My mate at work (the one I stole this car off! :) ) has an early D2 with standard suspension, so I'm going to take that for a spin and see how it feels. He just doesn't know it yet......!

[ramblingboy42]

very stiff springs DaveA , are what is really affecting your ride.

measure the coil diameter and the number of coils and you will see what you have over standard.

if you change back to standard you will probably need to change your dampers back too , as I'm assuming it's lifted as well.

should have no problem getting original bits as so many D2's have been lifted.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

just remember the added weight of the front bar before changing springs,,,,;)

[DaveA1963]

Talking about suspension... I raised the rear this morning with the button that pumps up the SLS..... how do I get it back down again? :)

[lewy]

It should go down after you reach 40kms,or hit the button again.

[DaveA1963]

I tried the button & nothing seemed to happen.... I'll try 40 km/h & see if that works :).
Thanks mate!

[PhilipA]

Just on the front, when I bought my 2002 D2, my front springs were a bit sagged but still within tolerance.
The ride was terrible and the bumpstops are pretty shagged on a car that was never off road. the lower shock bushes were stuffed.

IMHO, the front is too low as it bottomed just on speed bumps etc.

I replaced the springs with a pair of RRC "green" springs that I have had for years . They are 91 model rears and have a 160Lb per inch rate. they raise the front about 30MM. LRA sell this exact spring.

I was nervous because they are flat at the bottom whereas D2 springs just end in a 90 degree cut to fit into a socket on the axle plate, however I rang LRA and they said not to worry as they had fitted lots without problems, but to be sure I cut a bit of the tapered bit off so that it would fit in the socket.

While I don't agree that D2s ride like an RRC as they have much stiffer anti roll bars and somehow BMW has made the ride worse IMHO.

Ride is mainly influenced by the front of the car BTW.
Just a suggestion
Regards Philip A

[DaveA1963]

Okay, I worked it out after I RTFM'ed.

To get it to go down, you either use an optional, extra-cost remote (!!!) or go over 40 km/h.....

Is it just me or is that weird? :)

[simonmelb]

The optional remote is not to lower it to STD height, but rather to lower and raise to/ from the bump stops to std height when hitching up a trailer.

As prev stated a push of the button ( May need to hold for a sec) should do exactly the same thing as driving over 40 kmh.

Ps : doors must be closed

[MR LR]

very stiff springs DaveA , are what is really affecting your ride.

measure the coil diameter and the number of coils and you will see what you have over standard.

if you change back to standard you will probably need to change your dampers back too , as I'm assuming it's lifted as well.

should have no problem getting original bits as so many D2's have been lifted.
I disagree with this. It's usually to do with shock absorber valving.

Most aftermarket D2 front springs are in the 180 to 220 lb range... not realyyyyy that heavy, but with El-cheap-crap shocks, such as Terrible Firmness, the ride is ruined.

D2's never rode as well as D1's or RRC's off the shelf, but they can be made to behave well if you have your wits about you and know what to pick to bolt on!

There is a running joke that when the D2 release was done, all the dealers rocked up in RR's or D1's and were appalled by the ride, and lack of rear steer offered by the D2! Dad still doesn't shut up about it to this day!

[ozscott]

Bollocks to that. The d2 for drivers who push through corners is much better than a d1. The d1 from the factory had a nicer ride compliance but can get bouncy on bad outback roads. The d2 was always more planted and steered better. I love d1's but they dont handle as well as a d2 and on long sections of rough stuff the d2 is all over it.

Cheers

[MR LR]

Bollocks to that. The d2 for drivers who push through corners is much better than a d1. The d1 from the factory had a nicer ride compliance but can get bouncy on bad outback roads. The d2 was always more planted and steered better. I love d1's but they dont handle as well as a d2 and on long sections of rough stuff the d2 is all over it.

Cheers
Call bollocks all you want, I was sitting in the back seat of one.

[PhilipA]

The steering on a D2 is much better than RRC or D1 because the ball joints allow there to be "Neutral Scrub Radius" as they can sit inside the wheel on its centerline which the swivels on a D1 do not. This is particularly so with wide wheels on a D1 vs D2.

The ride is worse because the anti roll bars are much bigger on a D2 than a D1 but this also allows much less body roll in corners. Off road without traction control a D2 would not be as good as a D1, without ACE that is. Traction control is magic.
.
With ACE I guess the ride would be better also but IMHO just another thing to go wrong. I only have springs all round and no ACE, but I prefer it that way. I may get some front bar disconnects however .
Regards Philip A

[ozscott]

I have had a d1 and d2 since new Mr LR. You would have been too young to drive at that time i assume... ride and handing from a driver's perspective and from a rear seat passenger perspective can be v different

[DaveA1963]

I'm thinking that it IS the shocks, because the rear is (I presume) standard airbag and it's just as stiff as the front, which has aftermarket springs.

Maybe I need to change the four shocks & the front springs, although it has that ARB nudge bar which would add a bit of heft to the front.

Hmmm...... Maybe I'll just try some softer shocks first and see how that feels.

[lewy]

I bought my standard from here,make sure you get the sls shocks they are different.I still havn't found anyone that will tell me any of the koni etc mob ride is not hardened,I think simply that no one can find the standard valving.
Discovery 2 Front Standard Shock Absorbers at www.rimmerbros.co.uk (http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID010211)

[ramblingboy42]

I thought this was general knowledge but obviously not.

Your shock absorbers are your springs.

What you are calling shockers are dampers.

Dampers control the oscillations of the shock absorbers (springs) which would become uncontrollable if not damped.

If your dampers are not properly matched to your springs , that is where you start to get uncomfortable ride as the dampers work against your spring rates either too much or too little.

Incorrect and/or worn dampers affect the ability of the spring to work correctly throughout its travel and can make a significant difference to braking as the dampers control the speed of the forward pitch of the vehicle under breaking.

That is why expert advice should be sought when lifting or changing springs and dampers in your car.

[DaveA1963]

Ahhhh..... yeah........ Thanks for the lesson on correct terminology.

Silly me..... Here I was thinking springs were springs and shock absorbers were...... never mind.

Anyway. I understand the theory about what does what, and was actually hoping for some advice on what suits the D2 from those contributors here who are familiar with said model. I'm gratified to be able to say that the advice I've received here has been most helpful.

I have also taken expert advice from a very helpful gentleman at Rover Spares who is very familiar with the D2, having been through a similar exercise with his own D2 suspension.

[discorevy]

Dave A , I think rambling on may have just enlightened us all and solved your problem as well , if , as he says your springs are your shock absorbers , then you have airbags ,therefore you don't even have
shock absorbers. :eek:........ There's your problem :D

[ramblingboy42]

just wondering why you guys are trying to take the **** out of me.....

It is a FACT......your springs , airbags included , are what absorb the shocks from road undulations that you drive over.

Your dampers....incorrectly called shock absorbers , dampen and control the oscillations generated by the springs.

There is no need for sarcasm or smart arse comments.

[DaveA1963]

Sorry mate, not deriding the content of your post, and I do appreciate the information, but the tone of your post....

[MR LR]

I have had a d1 and d2 since new Mr LR. You would have been too young to drive at that time i assume... ride and handing from a driver's perspective and from a rear seat passenger perspective can be v different

Congratulations :D :D :D like a medal? Shirt to pin it on?

Obviously you have taken my statement as an attack on the Series II Discovery, and hence shredded it, that is not true at all... I've have had two D2's, they're bloody good things... I've had two D1's... also bloody good things... and I have an RRC (that works bloody well thanks to a bit of ingenuity in the suspension department...).

I never said it was about what handles better... I know what handles better, I've had the opportunity to flog just about every LR model around a corner.

But the older cars had a better ride, more Rolls Royce than Ferrari... D2's handle much better, but they are completely different to drive, I actually like the rear steer from the old A-frame set up, but then I don't mind a bit of roll as I know how they behave. Both are reasonably behaved on dirt, but IMO a D1 with decent shocks and coils is much nicer, D2 sway bars are too stiff.

My statement was mentioning what the people that sold and worked on LR's thought when the D2 was released, they didn't like it at first, it was different from the old chassis they'd been driving for 25 years... Each to their own... that's just what they continue to say to this day. And sometimes, I even agree, the rear steer makes them fun on mountain passes, but the D2 is very predictable, a nice daily driver :)

[MR LR]

I thought this was general knowledge but obviously not.

Your shock absorbers are your springs.

What you are calling shockers are dampers.

Dampers control the oscillations of the shock absorbers (springs) which would become uncontrollable if not damped.

If your dampers are not properly matched to your springs , that is where you start to get uncomfortable ride as the dampers work against your spring rates either too much or too little.

Incorrect and/or worn dampers affect the ability of the spring to work correctly throughout its travel and can make a significant difference to braking as the dampers control the speed of the forward pitch of the vehicle under breaking.

That is why expert advice should be sought when lifting or changing springs and dampers in your car.
The man has a point...

I generally just call dampers, "shocks" as that is colloquial...

[ozscott]

Good man Mr LR. Good to see you taking my comments in the spirit intended. ;)

Cheers

[discorevy]

apologies and no hard feelings to ramblingboy42, that day had involved a heated discussion with a customer who had supplied his own SHOCKS wanting me to fit them to his patrol to correct a sag ....no need for details. now , a previous customer had correctly self diagnosed a transfer case noise. had i explained to him in a dictatorial manner that it was common knowledge that it was the bearings in what should really be called a 2 speed centre differential, i shouldn't have been surprised if he had pulled out a wet fish and slapped me over the head with it[tonguewink]. ..........hence the need to colloquiallise.

to the OP , with such a stiff ride , if you don't require a lift , and your current tyre size will allow , dropping back to stanard would certainly give a better ride in your case as it would appear the previous fitter had limited knowledge of suspension , eg , they may have fitted constant load td5 front springs which , as yours is v8 would give a nasty ride indeed , especially with incorrect shocks.(v8 is a fair bit lighter ) . Also check they haven't put spacers under the airbags .If there and they have fitted wrong shocks, they may be topping out.... hope this helps

[DaveA1963]

I'm not sure what has actually been fitted in the way of front springs (this coming weekend, my first one I've had off in over three months, is "Play with the New Disco Day") so I'll crawl underneath on Saturday & have a squiz.

I spoke to a guy at Rover Parts Plus who has a D2 and has been through the whole rigmarole of trying to improve the ride. He suggests, because of the fairly substantial ARB nudge bar, that I go for springs that have a 2" lift, but are fairly standard rate. He's also recommended Terrafirma dampers. Bilsteins would be lovely, but I took one look at the price & nearly died.....

"Wow! I take it that's the price for four?"
"No, that's PER unit."
"Arrrrrr.... okay then.... What are the .... erm..... other options please?" :)

He also said the ride is slightly better with the rear converted to coils, but you then lose the self-levelling.

Anyway, a couple more engine bits & other odd jobs to do first before I get round to the suspension, but it should be in the pipeline within the month.

Silly question time now..... I'm pretty handy with the spanners, but certainly no expert..... Is the changeover of springs and dampers something that is best left to a specialist?

[Dhickm]

Changing springs and dampers (shocks?:angel:) on my 2002 V8 SLS was easy. Rears took 15 minutes tops and fronts about an hour. Only had to use spring compressors on one spring.
Plenty of videos on youtube and step by steps on this forum.

I used terrafirmas and have been happy with the ride. However it is subjective as the old set were shot, and haven't been able to compare with another D2.

[MR LR]

DO NOT buy Terrafirma shocks, they are terrible quality, fade on dirt roads, and are shot within 20,000km, trust me, I made the mistake... I now run Bilsteins. You don't want to pay twice!

[discorevy]

DaveA , beg to differ on the gentleman who advises that the ride is slightly better from coils over airbags , anyhow , if you decide to go to coil rear, you will also require spring carriers , and the rubber seats , also access to nanocom or similar to reset parameters ...... or simply carry a spare airbag on long trips , (easy replacement). To do the fronts you will need to drop front crossmember,possibly sway bar mounts depending on lift , also make sure your brake lines / abs wires have no strain on them (should be no strain even at full extension). Job is easier with a hoist , don't know of anyone in Darwin , maybe someone else could recommend , but whichever way you go ...... enjoy , you sound like you got got a good deal.

[DaveA1963]

If one were to remove the airbags, does that mean you can do away with the SLABS and the compressor, or would that mean you also lose ABS?

I must admit, I'm a bit terrified at the thought of all those electronics going wrong...... that looks EXPENSIVE! :(

[discorevy]

Yes , you can do away with the compressor and no you wouldn't lose abs , if converting to coils , just need to reset the slabs so the light on the dash doesn't come on, the SLS is really quite a good system, usually only requiring airbag replacement every 6-10 years , compressors are usually pretty robust ,

[DiscoDB]

Dave,

Before you go down the path of changing your suspension or getting rid of the airbags, I would be trying to work out exactly what you have first.

It is pretty easy to pull a shock absorber out to see if you can identify what brand or model they are.

Your coils being yellow could be from many different suppliers, but knowing the wire diameter and number of coils could give the clues needed. Even just measuring the deflection when you sit on the bullbar and compare to a standard D2 will tell you how much stiffer the front springs are.

Likewise do you know if bushes have been replaced with polyurethane as these can make the ride harsher. The stock rubber bushes last ages and give a better ride.

Are the rear airbags original or has an aftermarket brand been fitted.

What tyre pressure are you running. I find running about 2-3psi lower than recommended gives a slightly better ride and does not feedback the bumps as much. The tyres are also shock absorbers.

And final comment, yes the D2 has a firmer ride to the old classic rangie, it is also heavier and has a higher centre of gravity but it should handle better (warning: subjective comment).

I still have all original suspension only having ever replaced the shockies once and still find the ride good (no airbags but have ACE) at 478k. Compared to an airbag D3 mine is noticeably firmer and you feel bumps that the D3 just glides over.

Most speak highly about the standard airbags, and people who have removed have been known to regret and even reinstate.

Happy problem solving.

David

[DaveA1963]

Excellent advice thanks everybody!

I went in and spoke to a local suspension shop on Wednesday, and he's worked on quite a few D2's and has come across the "harshness problem" before.

Without looking at the car, he suspects it's probably the dampers that are a large part of the issue - especially as it seems to be equally harsh front and rear.

I had a quick squiz underneath during the week, and I think the shocks are possibly "Nitrochargers"? I'll have another look today (with my glasses on!) and see if I can confirm that. There also looks to be some writing on the coils which I'll try & decipher.

His business is also part of the local Opposite Lock franchise (they've actually bought out the previous local franchisee and are building a lovely new premises where they'll combine both businesses).

The point here is that I had OL's Tough Dog dampers and OL springs on a 2007 Patrol and they were superb. In that instance, it was a work truck and I was doing about 60,000km's per year with the vehicle grossing nearly 4.5 tonnes with all my work gear aboard. The standard suspension lasted halfway through my first trip (to Nhulunbuy in Arnhem Land) and collapsed onto the bump stops. Yes, it was overloaded and after putting her over a weigh bridge, I realised why the fuel economy sucked and the poor little 3-litre turbo was struggling! :)

I did over 200,000 km's with that vehicle, all over the NT, and a lot of it was on very gnarly dirt roads. The dampers never let me down, never faded and were very comfortable. The custom springs (three sets before they got the right rate, although ARB simply told me I'd bought the wrong vehicle when I approached them!) were excellent and very comfortable, whilst carrying the weight easily and controllably.

So, the present plan is to fit some Tough Dogs initially and see what that does. At worst, it should remove the dampers from the equation as a source of the harsh ride.

Question. If you raise the front, via taller springs, does the rear airbag setup automatically adjust or do you have to modify something to get a level ride height all round?

I actually tend to run my tyre pressures higher up here in the North, mainly because of the heat. I've found an extra 3-4 psi over normal makes the tyres definitely run cooler and they seem to wear more evenly, although that last observation is subjective. On the down side, they transmit more of the road surface through.

I think the bushes and airbags are standard, but again, I'll have a look today and see if I can ascertain exactly what they are.

Handling-wise, the D2 is, to my mind, pretty darn impressive. For a big heavy vehicle, it can be punted through corners with excellent grip and surprisingly little body roll. The ACE models must be awesome in that department! It never feels as big as it actually is, and it's actually a lot of fun to push through the twisties..... it's just that you feel every tiny bump!

[PhilipA]

I was thinking about why a D2 seems harsher than an RRC.

One reason is the stiff anti roll bars, but I think the main reason is the changing of the trailing/leading arm mounts on the chassis to metallistic joints from the previous rubber either side of a steel flange.

This means that every deflection of the arms is twisting the metallistic joint which has significant resistance to shear movement VS the old system of the arm moving relatively freely up and down for the first several degrees before the rubber bushes start to deform.

I notice that since I retightened my arm to chassis mount bolts that the car is nice and quiet but more "jiggly".
The new system is more precise in locating the axles , and reduces the effects of wear over time, but it is harsher than the old system, and IMHO that is why they changed the rear system to under axle bushes to try and reduce the harshness.
Regards Philip A