Deep water - Stock Puma Defender

[tact]

So the Land Rover stated fording depth for recent model (Puma) Defenders is 500mm. (Never forget that)

But how deep can they really go?

Click the link below to watch a video taken earlier this week. The vehicle is my 2013 model 2.2l 110 Dual Cab. It is stock standard (well almost): No snorkel, no lifts, standard tyres. But also no bullbar or winch to lower the front end

Before the 54 second mark you can see the reflection of the headlights on top of the water. Around that mark the headlights are fully submerged. Looking out of the driver window at the engine air intake I can see water is half way up the intake vent.

Parking the vehicle on level concrete and measuring... it is 950mm to the top of the headlamps. 1000mm to the top of the headlight surround. So I reckon the water depth was between 950mm and 1000mm

Before the "madness" comments flow in let me say:
* the tunnel is one I have used many times (even earlier that same day, and on other occasions when it has been flooded to a lesser degree)

* the tunnel has a hard flat concrete floor (i.e. no chance of falling into surprise holes as one might in the wild) and gets gradually deeper until the end is reached

* i certainly wouldn't take this risk in the wild...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153134228727044&l=6002508313755746560

[Tombie]

Well you're lucky you still have an engine with water on the intake...

The electronics are well below so stopping for any length of time will prove painful..

[BadCo.]

Looks like fun! I hope you didn't go back through after you got the boy haha going nose first into the deep end...

[Toxic_Avenger]

Having investigated the inlet system, it's a bit of a gamble. The airbox itself is level with the intake vent on the guard. If water gets thru the top half of the airbox lid, and is sucked in by the engine, it's all downhill to the turbo compressor wheel, and then the intercooler.

Water plus a fast spinning, hot, turbo compressor wheel:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/1077.jpg

If you manage to suck water from the intercooler to the engine, things can get exponentially worse.

But mad video nonetheless!

[tact]

Looks like fun! I hope you didn't go back through after you got the boy haha going nose first into the deep end...

:D. Not this time..

A few months ago it was dry going out, flooded going home (not as deep as this last event). Though the water was lower I pushed a larger bow wave and it looked more dramatic with water across the bonnet.

After going through once on the home bound route the lad (6yo) was thrilled " ...lets go back through again!"

And we did, and then again once more to get back on the home side.

[tact]

Having investigated the inlet system, it's a bit of a gamble. The airbox itself is level with the intake vent on the guard. If water gets thru the top half of the airbox lid, and is sucked in by the engine, it's all downhill to the turbo compressor wheel,[...]

This is sensible informed comment Tox.

Have also looked into the air paths. From intake to airbox isn't so much of a worry if water level is about there.

The suction on the airbox outlet (to turbo intake) is at the top of the airbox so water has to get to there to start doing real damage. Only a little water is needed at that point as the ducting is indeed a downhill run into turbo.

[wrinklearthur]

You need to covertly use a can of spray paint. :whistling:

Or fit a well fitting snorkle.

[Loubrey]

The way Defenders let water in (and out for that matter), the Tdci's throttle position sensor above your right foot is actually my biggest concern. Fair enough that they don't have flaps, so the normal waterfall on your feet doesn't happen, but there is still many ways water can land on (if not fully submerge) that unit.

I've got pictures taken from the passenger seat, of my 300Tdi driving with the windscreen looking like a fish tank with about 6" daylight showing at the top, but the RAI/ snorkel was so well sealed you could smother the engine by closing the intake. We did it for volunteer flood rescue in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire, and the end morally justified the toll on wheel bearings, pulley bearings, alternators etc.

I do however avoid water deeper than the rubber hub cap with my Tdci as far as possible. Everyone to his own, but the wear and rear due to water ingression in every other part of the car, especially in murky water (suspended soil and organic matter), just doesn't make it worth it IMO.

Luckily I live in WA, so plenty of travel available without mandatory water crossings...

Cheers,

Lou

[DiscoMick]

Can I ask if water came into the battery box under the front passenger's seat through the grommet holes in the battery box, or had you blocked them?
Also, did the bottoms of the door seals let water in? I could see daylight through mine until I added an extra seal on the body at the bottom of each door.

[voltron]

That looked cool. Theoretically maybe it wasn't meant to be possible but in reality it was. Trust your intuition I guess.

[Land739]

I have heard that some people in USA were driving though VERY fast flowing water; result being; lost vehicles and legal issues.
I wonder if LR has put a measly 500mm as a sort of legal protection; by keeping it low, the vehicle would have less water up against it's side to push it away.

[Loubrey]

I have heard that some people in USA were driving though VERY fast flowing water; result being; lost vehicles and legal issues.
I wonder if LR has put a measly 500mm as a sort of legal protection; by keeping it low, the vehicle would have less water up against it's side to push it away.

Definitely legal backside covering... The 500mm is apparently calculated using the height of the intake, standing in static water on stock heights and then a standard engineering safety margin or reducing factor is applied.

Its been the same measurement since 1983, so they won't ever change it. As per my previous post, a proper snorkel equipped pre-Td5 Defender (read Land Rover 90, 110, County etc) won't even blink at wading 1200mm or deeper.

Electronics have become the governing factor way beyond managing engine air intake.

Cheers,

Lou

[Tombie]

Buoyancy - although not a huge factor in a Defender is also included in the calculations.

Amongst other things..

That running water in the video is about the limit of what should be attempted and would have bordered on capable of shunting the vehicle downstream.

Water and mud is always fun to play in - but they are not boats :)

[tact]

You need to covertly use a can of spray paint. :whistling:

Or fit a well fitting snorkle.

Yeah... I must be a bit slow cos no matter how many times I read the above I can't figure it out. :D

[tact]

Can I ask if water came into the battery box under the front passenger's seat through the grommet holes in the battery box, or had you blocked them?
Also, did the bottoms of the door seals let water in? I could see daylight through mine until I added an extra seal on the body at the bottom of each door.

There was an inch or so of water inside the cabin and as Loubrey astutely observed - the throttle position sensor was a concern. As much as I was hanging out the driver window watching the air intake - I was also keeping an eye on the amount of water at my feet inside.

Yes both the boxes under front seats had water enter, expected that to be no higher than what was on the floor inside the cabin.

I reckon the door weather seals do a good job on my barge because if all other doors and windows are closed its damn hard to close the last door (air pressure). I certainly do not see any daylight around the door seals.

But doing a good job as weather (rain) seals doesn't make them 100% watertight of course. Am pretty sure water got past door seals. And water in the battery and electrical box got in through grommets, drain holes etc

[tact]

The way Defenders let water in (and out for that matter), the Tdci's throttle position sensor above your right foot is actually my biggest concern. [...]

I've got pictures taken from the passenger seat, of my 300Tdi driving with the windscreen looking like a fish tank [...] We did it for volunteer flood rescue in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire, and the end morally justified the toll on wheel bearings, pulley bearings, alternators etc.

I do however avoid water deeper than the rubber hub cap with my Tdci [...]


Cheers,

Lou

Spot on there Lou. I was keeping an eye on the water inside as much as the water level near the air intake. I figured that the throttle pedal sensor and electrics under the driver seat (fuses and relays) were about the same level and neither would respond well to dunking.

I spent the first 4 days of 2015 delivering flood relief to jungle communities just days after Malaysia experienced the worst flooding on record in its eastern and northern states. Some buddies put together a convoy of 12 vehicles. We moved something like 20t of food, water and other essentials in to Orang Asli (aboriginal) flood victims who normally miss out when aid is delivered to towns etc. (And every week since then teams have gone back building bridges and taking medics and aid in...)

But mud was more an issue for us than deep water. Some of the more hard core teams faced fast moving water and deep water (note the separation there - not "fast & deep at the same time").

For me the decision was made long ago to go no deeper than maybe 750mm at a push in real life situations. That tunnel drive was in an urban situation, not far from home, and very much a controlled experiment.

It confirmed for me that the self imposed absolute limit (750mm) has about a 200mm+ safety factor (and that of course means taking whatever caution is needed to ensure no surprises greater than 200mm exist!).

I choose a self imposed limit over a (properly sealed) snorkel to be my safety factory with the Landy. Others might wish to be able to go deeper and choose a snorkel for their "safety". That's ok too.

Back when I drove only toyotas I went down the path of properly sealed snorkels and lifts and big wheels and bars and winches and such.

This time I want to keep the Landy close to stock standard. (Given no winch or chunky tyres or TC - I considered the open diffs must go, and fitted ashcroft ATBs front and rear.)

[AndyG]

I have heard that some people in USA were driving though VERY fast flowing water; result being; lost vehicles and legal issues.
I wonder if LR has put a measly 500mm as a sort of legal protection; by keeping it low, the vehicle would have less water up against it's side to push it away.

These are the same people unaware that McDonald's sell hot coffee:p

[wrinklearthur]

Yeah... I must be a bit slow cos no matter how many times I read the above I can't figure it out. :D

Clue; indicate how deep the water is?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/899.jpg
.

[loneranger]

These are the same people unaware that McDonald's sell hot coffee:p

OT - McDonalds and coffee should never be used in the same sentence. :p