Who is getting confused by all the MSA/LT230 conversion threads?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I want an Isuzu box for my IKEA 6x6 but am hoping for reliability of the adapter.

Who else is getting confused about the best way to proceed by all the technical discussion .

Personally like most of us and I'm assuming Vern as well we want to know that we can go touring and not have to worry about failure of the adapter.

Who is currently intending on an MSA MXA conversion?

Will you be using someone else's conversion or making your own?

Are you interested in a group buy of "workingonit's" adapter shaft?

[Vern]

Wheres the 'like' button😊

[Corgie Carrier]

I've got the motor, but have been waiting to see what conversions are reliable and so far none have inspired me to start the conversion from the 200tdi that is still running very well.

Watching with interest.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wheres the 'like' button��You could always press the "rate thread" function! :)

Added two further options Have and like plus Have and don't like.

[workingonit]

I've already asked the question about who wants what in 137 page 14.

Yes, its confusing.

Judging by input so far Ancient is most likely the one with the machining contacts, and Sitec. There's Hi-Tough but I'm still waiting on them. Maybe Vern will find a manufacturer. Who knows.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/213883-adaptor-shaft-14.html

Trouble is some want it unrealistically cheap - current pricing is around $1,000 to $1,200 for solid shafts or two pieces and even then some further adaptation might be required. Others won't buy unless destruction testing and lots of real life testing on a very small run item is done - whose going to pay for the destruction test?????? Not the manufacturer on such a small run!!!!!!

See 143 for the last drawing I've done. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/213883-adaptor-shaft-15.html

My feeling is that this is the cheapest your going to get re a two piece shaft at least, with 'potential' for field servicing given some of you may have most parts other than the drive flange. Even then I would guess the flange is going to be in the order of $500 or more. Plus if you don't have the gear your fct5090 $100 and if you need it the long spline input gear $300 approx.

Damien is now looking at 'bullet' proof via Sitec. Different gearbox? Development time? Cost?

PS thanks for putting up the survey. Might have needed category 'other manufacturer'.

[Vern]

Yes too many threads and posts being thrown around. At the moment i have no idea until i get it apart as to why mine failed. I have no idea until i get mine apart as what to do about a new shaft. I have no idea and until i get it apart, don't really care about it. I have no idea when i will get it apart, but until then, i'll just keep reading posts😆

[Vern]

$300 for an input gear, tell him he's dreaming

[workingonit]

I paid $250 a couple of years ago from MRAuto - probably cheaper on the net - just ball parking $300.

Has anyone even looked at my last drawing or am I really just wasting my time?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I am absolutely interested in a group buy of a shaft and fully understand mechanical things break. Most users it seems are carrying spare shafts.

IMHO the cost is less important than reliability and I'm not into cheapskating where reliability is a factor.

The problem from my perspective is that a shaft without the adapter housing is next to useless and if there is a group buy on shafts, where will the housings come from?

My intention is to use the 1.222:1 disco LT230 so any shaft must match that engagement.

In relation to the who would be into a group buy, those posts will clutter up the adaptor shaft technical thread and is the reason why I started this one.

[Vern]

I paid $250 a couple of years ago from MRAuto - probably cheaper on the net - just ball parking $300.

Has anyone even looked at my last drawing or am I really just wasting my time?

Ahh I see, ?45 from ashcrofts:) (stupid tablet doesn't like the quid symbol)

Not waisting your time, I'm just no where near ready to look into it properly yet

[workingonit]

Agree, the casing is the other big problem. But as I've indicated, the Outcast bird I think has flown on that one. Unless they're inundated with genuine requests for a case, and it costs, they're unlikely to make any more.

I really think, unless you can work metal, you'll be off to an engineering shop for a prototype $$$$. Anyone want to draw up detailed plans? Will a forum member make them and go through the issues Sheldon went through (his own fault or not)?

[Vern]

Agree, the casing is the other big problem. But as I've indicated, the Outcast bird I think has flown on that one. Unless they're inundated with genuine requests for a case, and it costs, they're unlikely to make any more.

I really think, unless you can work metal, you'll be off to an engineering shop for a prototype $$$$. Anyone want to draw up detailed plans? Will a forum member make them and go through the issues Sheldon went through (his own fault or not)?

If someone wants to measure mine up then that's fine, but as I said, I'm not pulling it out just yet:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

IMHO, what we first need to know is what is the spacing between the MSA/MXA and the LT230 that will use the original prop shaft lengths and can we/someone make a reliable shaft in that length.

After that it is only design work, the decision to use aluminium or steel.

I personally know a retired steel fabrication welder/engineer and Land Rover enthusiast who I'm sure I could convince to make up a jig and do small runs. He prefers to work in steel.

Going on the batches of capstan winch brackets and S1 bumpers he made for me, he would probably also make changes in the design to reduce stress points and make the adapter more reliable. Probably all he'd ask for is for someone to do the drawings in CAD so he could have the end plates lasercut instead of having to plasma cut them.

(Although I don't know if we can trust a Defender TD5 owner? :angel: )

[workingonit]

Vern is trying to say 45 pounds sterling (say $100) plus postage which is a good price when not buying locally.

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/lt230-rebuild-kits/input-gear.html)

[Vern]

Bingo;)
Now if ashcrofts can make the zf shaft out of unbreakableariam then that would be awesome

[350RRC]

I've been watching all the relevant threads with interest for a long time.

For me an ultimate touring LR is something like Vern's RRC with a 4BIT and an Isuzu box mated to a reliable LR TC. An automatic could be even better!

I admire what Sheldon did in good faith, especially the gear linkage. There are enough people on here with knowledge and intent to really sort this out in a simple affordable way.

This is really about people building their dream vehicles that LR couldn't get quite right in the first place.

cheers, DL

[workingonit]

I agree with 350rrc sentiments, however...

unless there is common agreement as to what is required then there's not going to be any bulk purchase advantage - and there may little advantage anyway given the few that are interested. Some want to scrounge and adapt, some want bullet proof large diameters, some want to use off the shelf LRover as much as possible, some want field fixable, some don't care about that if it is bullet proof, some are wanting to go dry adaptor case others wet.

Its good to see pictures that people put up of various possible shaft options - but without serious measurements it pretty much becomes like beard stroking looking at family snaps 'oh, that's nice'.

[Homestar]

I've read most of the posts about this, and as someone who will eventually get around to converting the 101 to a 4BD1T, am interested in running the MSA box, but yes, everything is way too confusing. I'm in the 'I want something bulletproof and would be happy to pay for it' camp, but I'm realistically a couple of years from needing to buy one. I'll sit back and wait for a while.

The other option is to keep the LT95 which would be far simpler, but that would be no fun... :)

[Judo]

lol. Great poll.

I've been reading it but I really don't understand it. I just can't stop reading tho. It's like a crappy thriller movie. I don't really care to keep watching but I want to know how it ends!!!!

[Vern]

I've been watching all the relevant threads with interest for a long time.

For me an ultimate touring LR is something like Vern's RRC with a 4BIT and an Isuzu box mated to a reliable LR TC. An automatic could be even better!

I admire what Sheldon did in good faith, especially the gear linkage. There are enough people on here with knowledge and intent to really sort this out in a simple affordable way.

This is really about people building their dream vehicles that LR couldn't get quite right in the first place.

cheers, DLAgree 100%. Now if only I could get hold off Sheldon, am sure he will turn up, more than likely overseas with work. Its all starting to get out of control though. I \think he did a great job, yes some had issues, and he is hard to get onto, but when he is around he seems to help out. No one was doing what he did, another company copied it, even they stopped doing it. Still very happy with what I have, issues and all.:)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Soon we'll have to start a thread for those confused by the MSA confused thread! :twisted:

[workingonit]

Not really confused. I've learnt a lot about the mechanical side. Not surprised at the diversity of views and personal preferences - just like any other working group, but in this case we have no 'boss' to make the final decision, but then this is not a corporation trying to make a living. Just grateful it has not descended into personal abuse - which means I can annoy people with questions just that bit more :D

[Bearman]

Not really confused. I've learnt a lot about the mechanical side. Not surprised at the diversity of views and personal preferences - just like any other working group, but in this case we have no 'boss' to make the final decision, but then this is not a corporation trying to make a living. Just grateful it has not descended into personal abuse - which means I can annoy people with questions just that bit more :D

Yes, I would have to agree how civil this whole subject has progressed even with the problems associated with the shaft and not being able to contact the manufacturer of the kit. Good to see:)

[123rover50]

I've read most of the posts about this, and as someone who will eventually get around to converting the 101 to a 4BD1T, am interested in running the MSA box, but yes, everything is way too confusing. I'm in the 'I want something bulletproof and would be happy to pay for it' camp, but I'm realistically a couple of years from needing to buy one. I'll sit back and wait for a while.

The other option is to keep the LT95 which would be far simpler, but that would be no fun... :)

Do what I did and put the LT95 Tbox behind the MSA.
Its the only option for all those buying 6x6,s as well:cool:

[isuzutoo-eh]

I'm not confused, not convinced to replace my LT95s though either-especially since I have PTO winches to suit. Not got the dosh is the most convincing argument I have mind you...

I would prefer Keith's solution, even went as far as to buy an LT95 transfer that had been behind an auto but I didn't get photos and sadly bought one that had the auto inside the gearbox casing...and used the centre diff parts to try and rectify a KLR-induced problem anyway...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Do what I did and put the LT95 Tbox behind the MSA.
Its the only option for all those buying 6x6,s as well:cool:Why would a LT95 tranfer be any better than an LT230 transfer?

Only the Perentie LT95 have the tapered roller bearings and they only come in one ratio. I have a greater choice of ratios with the LT230 and I don't need the 6x6 drive out the PTO hole.

[workingonit]

In addition I believe there is a pto option on the MSA gearbox or was it engine and this is not including the other pump point for power steering? So if you use the LT230 pto for something else you still have options I believe.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In addition I believe there is a pto option on the MSA gearbox or was it engine and this is not including the other pump point for power steering? So if you use the LT230 pto for something else you still have options I believe.Most truck boxes have a PTO option out the side of the case, usually a hydraulic pump. Not sure about the MSA but clearance would be an issue.

There is definately a option for the 4BD/6BD series engines where there are two places on the timing case to attach pumps, mostly air for the brakes and hydraulic for PAS. Our Landy 4BD1s only have the one pump fitting for PAS.

The PTO hydraulics usually come out of the gearbox

[workingonit]

123rover5 - had a skim through your threads (and a few diversions to other interesting things) but couldn't quickly see any major write up using the LT95 on the MSA. Link? If not, then new thread maybe?

[workingonit]

Yes, I think it is the MSA and as you say maybe fitment problems - but if we can solve the MSA to LT230 shaft problem we can adapt anything :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The LT95 is a strong and reliable gearbox and it would be a great option if there were a 5 speed LT95. The transfer assembly is unique in Land Rover transfers as the hi-lo selection is on the intermediate shaft and it is that fact that makes the 6X6 drive possible.

Where it is a problem for conversion to the MSA, is that the LT95 is a one piece casting for the gearbox and tansfer housings. To adapt it to another gearbox you have to cut the gearbox housing off and then weld on a mounting plate plus make a transfer box input shaft and support it on bearings which usually means that you can't use the rear PTO because you now have a rear support bearing in situ.

The LT230 is stand alone, ready and waiting for whatever box you want to fit to it.

[85 county]

the threads have been quite entertaining, if for anything showing how little people actually Know. and other will little or building blocks of eng knowledge contribute some fanticy ideas, mixed in with some good idears.

[Bearman]

Why would a LT95 tranfer be any better than an LT230 transfer?

Only the Perentie LT95 have the tapered roller bearings and they only come in one ratio. I have a greater choice of ratios with the LT230 and I don't need the 6x6 drive out the PTO hole.

Not quite true Diana, There are currently 2 off the shelf Perentie ratios, 0.996 and 1.113 which is in the RFSV's and if you have access to a good lathe you can fit any LT95 ratio you like just by machining the inside of the intermediate shaft hi range gear to accept the bearings. Would be the way to go for a Perentie 6X6. That way you could use an isuzu box, keep the 6X6 output, fit 3.54's all round and go 1.1 or 1.3 in the transfer.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not quite true Diana, There are currently 2 off the shelf Perentie ratios, 0.996 and 1.113 which is in the RFSV's and if you have access to a good lathe you can fit any LT95 ratio you like just by machining the inside of the intermediate shaft hi range gear to accept the bearings.Hi Brian

I will conceed the 1.113 ratio, but the LT230 has 6 different ratios from 1.667 down to 1.003 giving a much greater choice when choosing to match tyre sizes and engine performance.

In the LT95 you still have to machine off the gearbox housing and make a new input shaft before you do the adapter work to mate any other gearbox to the LT95. With the LT230 you start by making the adapter.

[123rover50]

123rover5 - had a skim through your threads (and a few diversions to other interesting things) but couldn't quickly see any major write up using the LT95 on the MSA. Link? If not, then new thread maybe?

Did you find this one?
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/101-forward-controls-variations/131887-chev-v8-diesel-isuzu-msa.html
Once the Tbox is cut off its not welded to anything.
The front was trued up on the mill and its bolted to the rear flange of the fabricated housing.
Off the shelf male and female spline pieces were used.
The female shrunk and welded to a flange that bolted to the MSA output flange .
The male end drilled out and keyed onto the cut off front of the std Tbox mainshaft.
I have oil in the adapter housing so the splines are lubed all the time.

Keith

[Homestar]

I think I like Keith's idea for a couple of reasons. First up, I have a spare LT95 kicking about and even if I don't want to cut this one up, finding another is cheap and easy. Also, Keith has field tested it for quite some time now in a vehicle that weighs well over twice what mine does, and then tows with it. If he hasn't broken anything, then I'm sure as **** not going to. Reliability is the main thing I'm looking for. This conversion also seems to be more straight forward - I could be wrong here, and it could just be Keith making it look straightforward. :D

The 0.996 ratio works with what I'm planning, so no issues there either.

How many KM have you done in it now Keith since the conversion?

Cheers - Gav.

[Vern]

Gav i used to have the same conversion with the lt95 except it had a turbo 700 infront of it, then infront of that i either had a holden v8 stroker with all the fruit or a 6.5l chev diesel, i really liked that conversion, but i think it ran a custom splined input gear as the turbo 700 output shaft was not modified and slid straight into it.
But a hell of a lot of work for the average schmo! (I bought mine done).

[123rover50]

I think I like Keith's idea for a couple of reasons. First up, I have a spare LT95 kicking about and even if I don't want to cut this one up, finding another is cheap and easy. Also, Keith has field tested it for quite some time now in a vehicle that weighs well over twice what mine does, and then tows with it. If he hasn't broken anything, then I'm sure as **** not going to. Reliability is the main thing I'm looking for. This conversion also seems to be more straight forward - I could be wrong here, and it could just be Keith making it look straightforward. :D

The 0.996 ratio works with what I'm planning, so no issues there either.

How many KM have you done in it now Keith since the conversion?

Cheers - Gav.

Not as many as we would have wished:(
A bit over 20,000 since the MSA was put in.
Here is a pic of the left over splined set.
URL=http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/6x6/IMG_1487_zpssjsvzrog.jpg.html]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/672.jpg[/URL]

[123rover50]

Gav i used to have the same conversion with the lt95 except it had a turbo 700 infront of it, then infront of that i either had a holden v8 stroker with all the fruit or a 6.5l chev diesel, i really liked that conversion, but i think it ran a custom splined input gear as the turbo 700 output shaft was not modified and slid straight into it.
But a hell of a lot of work for the average schmo! (I bought mine done).

Thats what I had in first when I built it. It was a Ritters conversion.
Mal Story put it together for me.
The T700 broke so I then put in the 4L80E or somesuch but could not keep it cool even with two coolers it sometimes boiled the oil.
Bloody autos:mad:

[Vern]

Interesting. My conversion was made by Rovercentre in Skye, or choockshed motors as the locals would call it (was on an old choock farm), i had trouble with my first t700, then got it built properly, was great after that, but was just in a rangie, a little lighter than your😊

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think I like Keith's idea for a couple of reasons. First up, I have a spare LT95 kicking about and even if I don't want to cut this one up, finding another is cheap and easy. Also, Keith has field tested it for quite some time now in a vehicle that weighs well over twice what mine does, and then tows with it. If he hasn't broken anything, then I'm sure as **** not going to. Reliability is the main thing I'm looking for. This conversion also seems to be more straight forward - I could be wrong here, and it could just be Keith making it look straightforward. :D

The 0.996 ratio works with what I'm planning, so no issues there either.

How many KM have you done in it now Keith since the conversion?

Cheers - Gav.Gav

The problem I have with the LT95 0.996:1 ratio is when you put a 5 speed or 6 speed overdrive box in front of it. IMHO it is too high for big tyres.

But now we find that there is the RFSV ratio with the tapered roller transfer I may think again.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not as many as we would have wished:(
A bit over 20,000 since the MSA was put in.
Here is a pic of the left over splined set.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/672.jpg

Hi Keith

Can you tell me what I'm looking at? (what's it from (MSA or LT95), what is the collar at the base of the spline?)

Diana :TakeABow:

[123rover50]

Hi Keith

Can you tell me what I'm looking at? (what's it from (MSA or LT95), what is the collar at the base of the spline?)

Diana :TakeABow:

Neither.
Its whats left over from a male and female spline set I bought.
The other part of the female "collar" was welded to a flange that bolted to the MSA output flange.
The male part was drilled out and keyed to the mainshaft in the LT95 Tbox.
There are pics in that linked thread. I was just showing what size they were.
The hard bit was getting the oilways milled in the front plate of the adapter housing to match up with the rear plate of the MSA that is removed.

Keith

[Homestar]

Gav

The problem I have with the LT95 0.996:1 ratio is when you put a 5 speed or 6 speed overdrive box in front of it. IMHO it is too high for big tyres.

But now we find that there is the RFSV ratio with the tapered roller transfer I may think again.

Agree that would be the case with what most want it for, but the 101 runs 5.4 diffs, so the .996 ratio works if I have an overdriven 5th gear of .776 I work it out (if I'm right) that the engine would end to be doing about 2,500 RPM for 100KPH with 35" rubber on it. The 4BD1 should be happy enough there.

Again, that's if I've worked out my numbers properly... :D

[Vern]

Or .728 would be even better

[Homestar]

True, which box is more common? The .776 or the .728?

[Vern]

.776, the msa5g. I'd really like to get my hands on a 5r though for my car

[Corgie Carrier]

What about a six speed, Vern, aren't they a double overdrive?

That would give you the normal four gears plus overdrives and the Isuzu should have enough grunt to push your rangie along with those ratios.

[Homestar]

What about a six speed, Vern, aren't they a double overdrive?

That would give you the normal four gears plus overdrives and the Isuzu should have enough grunt to push your rangie along with those ratios.

Unfortunately not. 5th is 1:1 and 6th is the overdrive.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Gavin

You could always change your Sals to 4.7:1 although you'd then go to smaller dia halfshafts with all the consequences that would cause.

On the general thread, wouldn't it be nice if everyone's needs were the same.

Vern isn't carrying much weight so doesn't need the crawler gears, you have the 36" tyres of the 101 while I have the additional stress of an extra axle and more weight of a 6X6.

Makes for interesting discussion :)

Diana