No driving through the brakes on a D4?

[BSM]

I was very surprised to read on this thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/214663-dead-disco4.html#post2309979), the comments of several members saying that you should'nt do left foot braking in a D4.

I do left foot braking quite regularly when off-road on steep tracks in my D3 and have never had a problem. It's called "driving through the brakes" and it's a technique that is taught by 4wd Victoria and the Victorian Landover Owner Club.

There's an old thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/103730-hill-decent-slippery-stuff-3.html#post1243544)on it verses HDC where its use is discussed (in D3s)

I must say I would find it very surprising if the D4 did not support such an important driving technique.

[Tombie]

It's not an important driving technique in a modern 4wd like the Discovery 3/4/RRS.

Many of the teachings of these associations are still dealing with older technology and older techniques which is fine in a 2004 Patrol etc.

They still do hill stall starts in Autos for goodness sake!

Left foot braking the D3/D4 sends conflicting signals from the brake switch to the ECU along with an throttle input which reduces the systems effectiveness.

Some of the old guard need to learn the new tech and teach accordingly - which many don't.

[komaterpillar]

nice reply tombie, 100% agreed
in my '13 defender if you put your foot on the brake while accelerating, it kills the throttle until you lift off the brake.

[BSM]

I thought I'd consult Robbert Pepper on this one. Here's what he says.


Not a black and white answer. With its low gearing and now good HDC the latest Discoverys have less and less need of LFB to descent hills, as is the case with most modern cars. In fact, the LC200 is better off with its crawl control, as is the Jeep GC. This is in contrast to say 4-speed Patrol GUs and Discovery 2s! Also worth nothing the latest D4s are much advanced over the early D3s in all their electronic aids.

However, LFB still has a place even with modern cars. Crawling over rocks so you lower a wheel off a rock is one. Hill starting is another, as hill start assists are not to be trusted. It is still a good skill to learn, but not needed very often. So I don't agree it's a complete no-no, but neither do I agree (or teach) it should be used all the time, everywhere, it's just not necessary and can confuse the computers, even if they let you do it. Some cars have rev limits for LFB.

[BobD]

I never touch either the brakes or the clutch on my GQ Patrol with 6.5 Chev diesel. Engine braking and torque at idle speed are all that is required on extreme rock climbs etc.


Rock Crawl in the D4 applies some braking to achieve the effect you are after to maintain good throttle control up hill, without touching the brakes. I don't like hill decent and usually engine braking while idling along is enough for down hill with occasional brakes on very extreme slopes. I treat the D4 like my Patrol in that regard and the D4 auto is brilliant at controlling everything in low range. Even my son's D1 TDI 300 auto has full engine braking on the steepest slopes when in first gear low range and he doesn't need to brake. LR have done well.


I've never once used left foot braking, except on one or two occasions in the Patrol, before I fitted a front locker, to get the LSD to activate better and pull it through a really crossed up section.

[PeterOZ]

ahh the old RAAF 110 steep hill in reverse low range hit starter and crawl backwards.

Instructor had a big stick and if a foot went near the brake peddle he wacked you with it.

Contact instruction :cool::nazilock:

[Epic pooh]

As I said in the other thread, I drive through my brake (LFB) regularly at very low speed (less than 1km/h) on an extremely steep driveway. The choice is do it or hit the car in front (or something else) ... auto trans, no hill holder ... it's the only way to properly control the vehicle in this circumstance.

Similarly, when reversing my van up the steep driveway into its very narrow garage, it is a choice of be pushed forward and out of line by the van or left foot brake.

Personally I think that the system copes with it fine providing it is done in limited circumstances and at very low speeds. I've been doing it for years, it does not cause a problem with my grandpa D3, not sure how later models take it, but it would surprise me if the system did not cater to some degree for what is a known (bad) driving style.

My 2c worth :angel:

[jon3950]

Some of the old guard need to learn the new tech and teach accordingly - which many don't.

That's it in a nutshell. With a D4 (and D3) you pretty much need to re-think the way you do everything.

Left foot braking is a good technique in the right circumstances, but there is just no need for it in a D4. I am no fan of HDC and rarely use it, preferring to feather the brakes with my right foot. However I have found on the D4 it can hold your speed at a constant 1 km/h on very steep and rough tracks. I really can't do any better than that.

I still don't use it much and there are situations where you do need to control the brakes yourself, but it is actually very good now.

Cheers,
Jon

[jx2mad]

I love doing hill stall recovery in our fire tanker. Frightens hell out of new recruits because you have to start the engine with the truck hanging on the gearbox and the engine. The first two second after the engine fires the truck moves quickly until the engine braking takes over :D:D:D

[Tombie]

As I said in the other thread, I drive through my brake (LFB) regularly at very low speed (less than 1km/h) on an extremely steep driveway. The choice is do it or hit the car in front (or something else) ... auto trans, no hill holder ... it's the only way to properly control the vehicle in this circumstance.

Similarly, when reversing my van up the steep driveway into its very narrow garage, it is a choice of be pushed forward and out of line by the van or left foot brake.

Personally I think that the system copes with it fine providing it is done in limited circumstances and at very low speeds. I've been doing it for years, it does not cause a problem with my grandpa D3, not sure how later models take it, but it would surprise me if the system did not cater to some degree for what is a known (bad) driving style.

My 2c worth :angel:

What gear range are you using?

[Eevo]

im confused.
why would you ever left foot the brake?
is it an auto thing? (as i dont drive autos)

[Epic pooh]

High range because I'm not selecting low range to drive up a 50m driveway (manual cars are much easier on this driveway as the clutch provides better control). Ditto for the van although that's just habit low could be used.

But my point is that my D3 doesn't care that I LFB in these situations.

Yes eevo, it's an auto thing (unless you're drifting or racing on a track then LFB is a legit method of car control) !

[SBD4]

Mick, if I were you I would definitely use low range when reversing the trailer up a steep driveway. Much better for the transmission and much easier to control.

[Epic pooh]

Two different driveways - the really steep one is my parents (parking at the top of a slope behind their Honda which I can't see over my bonnet and don't want to hit as it wouldn't survive) and the van is parked in a garage that has a snaking narrow driveway that is somewhat sloped (enough that the van will push the disco fwd when reversing if not careful). I think I will do it in LR next time I park it just to see if that is enough to prevent the rolling forward.

Interestingly my holden can park the van without rolling forward but it sucks at it because if you touch the grass verge at all it results in nasty wheel spin (and also I can't go up the edge of the gutter !).

[donh54]

im confused.
why would you ever left foot the brake?
is it an auto thing? (as i dont drive autos)

Yep Eevo, it's an auto thing. Let's you goose it (a little bit) over rocks or through gutters, without taking off down the other side, thus compressing suspension and bottoming out. I only do it when necessary, and only in low range. :D:D

Sent from my HTC One XL using AULRO mobile app

[BobD]

I use low range to back my caravan up any sort of hill, including my 15m of drive. You actually have to brake to stop it moving backwards up the hill with the caravan in low range, not to stop it rolling forwards.


Also the same in my Patrol. No need to slip the clutch and much better control. No problems using low 4WD due to locking hubs left unlocked and obviously no issue at all in the D4 due to the centre diff.

[Kieren]

Sorry for the newbie question, but won't you get wind up in the diffs if you're in low range on, I assume, a concrete driveway?

[gghaggis]

Sorry for the newbie question, but won't you get wind up in the diffs if you're in low range on, I assume, a concrete driveway?

No - the centre-diff locking is "intelligently" controlled by the Terrain Response system.

Cheers,

Gordon

[donh54]

Sorry for the newbie question, but won't you get wind up in the diffs if you're in low range on, I assume, a concrete driveway?

Hi Kieren, you'll only get wind-up if you lock the centre diff on hard surfaces. As stated above, D3/4 have "smart" diff locks that won't lock unless there's some slippage. Us blokes in the more analogue type D1/2s have to physically lock the centre diff, because we know what we're doing :wasn't me:

Sent from my HTC One XL using AULRO mobile app

[MR LR]

Good to see you've all worked out why manuals are far superior off road and for maneuvering :p :wasntme:

[Kieren]

Thanks guys, still waiting for my D4 to be delivered, in the meantime looking forward to getting Gordon's manual in the mail soon, will no doubt answer all my questions!;-)

[TerryO]

Hi Kieren, you'll only get wind-up if you lock the centre diff on hard surfaces. As stated above, D3/4 have "smart" diff locks that won't lock unless there's some slippage. Us blokes in the more analogue type D1/2s have to physically lock the centre diff, because we know what we're doing :wasn't me:

Sent from my HTC One XL using AULRO mobile app


A Freelander owner that knows what they are doing! ... That's a first. ... :angel:

... ;)

[discotwinturbo]

Mick, if I were you I would definitely use low range when reversing the trailer up a steep driveway. Much better for the transmission and much easier to control.

X 2. Very good advice. This even worked on my Old Patrol manual.

Brett....

[gossamer]

It's not an important driving technique in a modern 4wd like the Discovery 3/4/RRS.


I dont agree, i was coming down a slippery off camber track and thought id use HDC what a mistake that was, i stopped turned it on and released the brake after about 20 meters i was skidding sideways, thank god for a rutt as it was going to be a long way to the bottom. After my butt cheeks let go of the seat driving through the bakes got me down safely.

[BSM]

I'm with you Gosammer. I won't be ditching this technique either. I've got better control on steep tracks than my HDC is giving me.

[Wheelan]

It's not an important driving technique in a modern 4wd like the Discovery 3/4/RRS.

Many of the teachings of these associations are still dealing with older technology and older techniques which is fine in a 2004 Patrol etc.

They still do hill stall starts in Autos for goodness sake!

Left foot braking the D3/D4 sends conflicting signals from the brake switch to the ECU along with an throttle input which reduces the systems effectiveness.

Some of the old guard need to learn the new tech and teach accordingly - which many don't.
Couldn't agree more, recently did the FWD Victoria course with Amarok club and could not believe how backward their way was, especially with all the newish cars there at the time. They need more training me thinks. Would only recommend this course for complete novices.

[donh54]

A Freelander owner that knows what they are doing! ... That's a first. ... :angel:

... ;)

And how many Freelander s have you owned? I have owned, (and still own) other Landies, but the Freeo is a crackerjack little car. I even wave to other Landies when I'm in it :D Not too many wave back, though :(

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app

[Blknight.aus]

ahh the old RAAF 110 steep hill in reverse low range hit starter and crawl backwards.

Instructor had a big stick and if a foot went near the brake peddle he wacked you with it.

Contact instruction :cool::nazilock:

When did I ever teach you to drive?

and its not contact instruction now, that got outlawed along with contact counseling.

I've had to resort to informational impacts and percussive persuasion

[Basil135]

How many people have tried the hill start in the D4?

Pull the EPB on, place vehicle in gear, accelerate away. There is no roll back, as the EPB holds you until you are moving forward. I showed SWMBO this, with the other 5 seats full of ours, and friends kids :cool:

Yes, it was a sealed road, but fairly steep, and would require a hill start in a manual, without the added person weight on board.

[MR LR]

How many people have tried the hill start in the D4?

Pull the EPB on, place vehicle in gear, accelerate away. There is no roll back, as the EPB holds you until you are moving forward. I showed SWMBO this, with the other 5 seats full of ours, and friends kids :cool:

Yes, it was a sealed road, but fairly steep, and would require a hill start in a manual, without the added person weight on board.
Done this... with a 3t car trailer on the back, works damn well.

As far as I'm concerned, if you feel a need to left foot brake in a D4, you're simply not a very good driver...

[Epic pooh]

Yes, that must be why LR designed it with so many electronic driver aids. They accurately knew their target demographic - lord knows I'm much more interested in not spilling my latte than having any driving skills. Thank the computers, I've never had a spill.

[shanegtr]

My computers will have nothing to do - I dont drink coffee:p

[MR LR]

Yes, that must be why LR designed it with so many electronic driver aids. They accurately knew their target demographic - lord knows I'm much more interested in not spilling my latte than having any driving skills. Thank the computers, I've never had a spill.
You may be saying that sarcastically...

But that isn't too far from the truth hahaha...

[donh54]

How many people have tried the hill start in the D4?

Pull the EPB on, place vehicle in gear, accelerate away. There is no roll back, as the EPB holds you until you are moving forward. I showed SWMBO this, with the other 5 seats full of ours, and friends kids :cool:

Yes, it was a sealed road, but fairly steep, and would require a hill start in a manual, without the added person weight on board.

I had an early sixties Studebaker that had a hill start system - as I recall, it had a ball bearing in the master cylinder, that maintained the brake pressure until the clutch was released. Nothing's really new, is it? :D

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app

[Epic pooh]

Yeah, many older subes have had really good hill holders over the years. I always found it to be kind of a redundant feature on a manual car with a proper handbrake.

A hill holder is quite a different thing to an (overly complicated) auto release epb that can't be used in the manner of a normal handbrake.