SDV6 Lag on take-off

[ocelot]

Hi all,


Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I'm confused whether the posts I've seen refer to pre-2012 Discover 4 vehicles.


I've just joined the group because I am on the verge of buying a new SDV6 Discovery 4 but there appears to be one fatal flaw - the distinct lack of action when I attempt to move off from a standing start. The idea of trying to nip into gaps in Sydney traffic with this lag gives me cold sweats.


I have test driven a new TDV6 and done 2 drives on a new SDV6 - the second time specifically to see if I could avoid the lag on starting, but no joy.


Looking at the various posts here and elsewhere and asking sales people who seem to think either the lag doesn't exist or is standard for a turbo diesel, I am getting conflicting opinions and now totally confused.


I have seen posts that suggest the problem can be reduced or eliminated by disabling MAP and/or MAF sensors, updating firmware or "remapping". I have had a suggestion that driving more aggressively through the gears using the flappy paddles will get the smart electronics to wake up and tune themselves to a smarter take-off and seen a few other suggestions, but I haven't been able to get a clear picture of if there is anything I can confidently do to get around this.


Can anyone offer some good advice on whether this lag is avoidable on a new vehicle or not, or should I just give up and stick with my petrol Prado, which is a joy to drive in heavy traffic.


Any advice much appreciated,


Bob

[ScottD4]

Hi all,


Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I'm confused whether the posts I've seen refer to pre-2012 Discover 4 vehicles.


I've just joined the group because I am on the verge of buying a new SDV6 Discovery 4 but there appears to be one fatal flaw - the distinct lack of action when I attempt to move off from a standing start. The idea of trying to nip into gaps in Sydney traffic with this lag gives me cold sweats.


I have test driven a new TDV6 and done 2 drives on a new SDV6 - the second time specifically to see if I could avoid the lag on starting, but no joy.


Looking at the various posts here and elsewhere and asking sales people who seem to think either the lag doesn't exist or is standard for a turbo diesel, I am getting conflicting opinions and now totally confused.


I have seen posts that suggest the problem can be reduced or eliminated by disabling MAP and/or MAF sensors, updating firmware or "remapping". I have had a suggestion that driving more aggressively through the gears using the flappy paddles will get the smart electronics to wake up and tune themselves to a smarter take-off and seen a few other suggestions, but I haven't been able to get a clear picture of if there is anything I can confidently do to get around this.


Can anyone offer some good advice on whether this lag is avoidable on a new vehicle or not, or should I just give up and stick with my petrol Prado, which is a joy to drive in heavy traffic.


Any advice much appreciated,


Bob

Bob,

You are not going to be able to 'nip into gaps in Sydney traffic'. It's a 2.5T 4WD, not a Lamborghini.

I have a '14 TDV6 and have taken it into Sydney for the commute a couple of times. I haven't found a problem, but perhaps I'm not as aggressive as you though.

. I LOVE my slow Disco.

[l00kin4]

Hi Bob,

Sorry I don't have a solution for you but I can confirm that I have the same issue. I've been persevering with it thinking it may be a matter of driving style and it is my first turbo diesel vehicle so I've been adjusting to the different characteristics.

The darting in Sydney traffic is definitely unnerving - I just don't even bother trying now.

I hope that someone here has some sort of solution.

David

[AnD3rew]

Yes this has been discussed many times over all the diesel engine variants. The easiest solution is to buy a V8:D

However a few things.
1. The transmission "learns" how you drive and adjusts a bit, but won't make it completely go away.
2. The driver learns
- how much gap you need
- how much throttle gives the best results, I find about half throttle until it starts to move and then a steady push to full throttle.
3. Sport mode improves it a bit don't know how easy it is to do In the new cars, but in my D3 you just knock the lever over into sport with the back of your hand everytime you need to take off, it is now instinctual for me.

But you do just get used to it, I drive in Sydney traffic with mine everyday for the last 6 years and no problems once you know the car and how it responds, once it does get moving, it is amazingly nippy for a huge brick shaped beast.

[Epic pooh]

Yeah, I have no fear of darting in Sydney traffic :)

Seriously, maybe take a petrol one for a spin (new scV6 ?).

It's very very sad they don't sell V8 D4s anymore. I've got a good mate with a 4.0 Prado, it has good get up and go ... Almost as good as mine [emoji41]

[RHS58]

I've found that planting the loud pedal really exacerbates the lag issue.
Better to spend a second or two gently pushing the accelerator down and the lag is much less of a problem.
14 months in to D4 ownership and I've adjusted to driving it.
Coming from a Prado diesel where planting the right foot caused a gentle forward progression compared with the D4.

Nowadays I find myself cruising around at quite leisurely paces enjoying the drive, the scenery, the fine sound of the entertainment system. Must be getting old. Certainly no longer in a hurry.

[discotwinturbo]

Drive in sport.

At 500 milliseconds for boost to come on, it's better than all turbo diesels I have driven.

Drive is for normal...Sport is for rapid response.

I have no issue in Sport at all. The boost is almost instant.

Brett....

[mhewitt]

Hi all,
The idea of trying to nip into gaps in Sydney traffic with this lag gives me cold sweats.


Mount a bullbar. They'll stop.

[NavyDiver]

Mount a bullbar. They'll stop.

Or they will help you hit them when you are changing lane to allow you to pay for the damage you do? My brother inlaw got his whole UTE resprayed by contributions by aggressive lane shifters or red light runners. It looked great and he did not pay a cent :wasntme:

Re lag- D3 has some but I find kicking the throttle a few seconds early to get the turbo spinning works But it is not like my former motor bike for zipping around at 3.2 tonnes I am not surprised :D.

[BobD]

There is enormous lag when the car is cold, but it almost disappears once the engine warms up. If you haven't had a long drive you may not have warmed the engine up enough, although the lag disappears pretty quickly so that would be unlikely.


As others have said, once warmed up the lag is much less than any other turbo diesel I have had (I have had three others) and it is the most petrol like diesel engine both in feel and sound that I have ever driven or been a passenger in.

[Tombie]

Heres a little test for you... I found what causes it when I was travelling the mines all the time..

If you "boot it" rather than feed the power in, the vehicle detects that the "boot it" behaviour will result in wheel spin / loss of traction and arrests your enthusiasm.

Turn off DSC and this reduces...

Use sport mode and this sensitivity reduces.

Feed the power on (theres a lot of torque) and it will pull away quickly and effortlessly... Tromp it and it will hold you back...

Around Whyalla I just cruise in D... for City driving I always run in Sport

[Epic pooh]

I reckon mine takes off fastest if you just slam the pedal to the floor as hard and fast as possible. On occasion this has resulted in mild wheel spin (rear) when roaring off around a corner or across an intersection (weight transfer) but the dsc does not intervene much as it seems to get what's going on.

In sydney traffic, sport mode does improve the kick down response slightly but not enough to drive in sport because I don't like how it holds gears to higher rpm unnecessarily at times in sport.

Ps: I have less torques and more ponies which = different driving experience.

[BobD]

With the SDV6 you can be on the limits of traction on bitumen without flooring it! The only time I really floor it is on steep hills or overtaking.

[Epic pooh]

That's your monster torques talking there, eh Bob ;)

[rufusking]

There's always Sand mode, makes the throttle more responsive. For a quick departure EPB on, DCS off, Sand mode, hover right foot over fast pedal then hit it!

[BobD]

That's your monster torques talking there, eh Bob ;)
Yeah, the monster torques are great for towing, off road and getting into traffic. Who needs monster horses?

[Epic pooh]

I like the aural delight and simplicity of ponies ! ;)

[BobD]

Upon reflection, the torques get you to about 140 when overtaking, even with a caravan. However, the ponies need to gallop above that.

Re the original topic, I imagine that there would be quite a lag if the auto stop start feature was active. Watching cars at traffic lights, those that shut down require significant time to restart and get going.

[Epic pooh]

As they say, ponies is how much trouble you get in, torques is how fast you get to the trouble zone !!

Stop - start : what's with that rubbish idea, if we were that concerned about saving fuel we'd be driving Nissan leafs ! It's not like a 3T 4wd with the aerodynamics of a building is going to benefit much or at all from that kind of additional complexity ! Oh well.

[drelectro]

I agree, the lag is definitely a thing.

I've just switched from a much lighter V6 Petrol vehicle and I had got used to being able to take off like a shot.
The first time I tried ducking through a gap in the traffic in the D4 was a little bit more exciting than I had expected ;)

Anyway I've just changed my driving style a bit and now wait for a slightly larger gap :)

Small price to pay I think given how nice the car is to drive.

[Muskie]

i dont have any lag at all with mine.....Must be the "Chipping" :p

[Tombie]

i dont have any lag at all with mine.....Must be the "Chipping" :p


Re-mapping... :)

And yes, it may be helping... Depends what they did to the throttle tables :)

[ocelot]

Thanks everyone for the info.


I'm not generally an aggro rev-head I just like to get where I'm going with the minimum of stuffing around, unless I'm sight-seeing. On the daily commute the traffic gets heavy and switching lanes can pick up a lot of time when you get behind B-Double construction trucks, which are currently congesting the roads I drive. Using an empty left lane at the lights can also save plenty of time, but if the spare lane runs out you need to get going fast enough to use it.


I've often cursed myself for not jumping into small opportunities in the traffic so I'm still inclined towards a conservative approach, but you have to draw the line somewhere and the lag simply means that line becomes even more limiting.


Trying to compare apples with apples, I previously owned a Series 80 Turbo Diesel LandCruiser, which was like a big truck, truck clutch, truck steering, etc - but it was manual so at the lights I could drag off almost anything unless the other driver wanted to prevent me, in which case they would go flat out and I could slot in behind them - same end result! My Auto petrol Prados have been much the same.


Power is not the problem. Control is. The salesman on my last test drive was spinning the wheels at the lights but not being able to control when that will happen is the drama. If the vehicle started off smoothly, but a bit slower, I could work with it but having no progress then spinning wheels after half a second or so is very tricky.


I'll digest the suggestions above and post back when I've had the vehicle for a while. Deposit paid today, hoping to pick it up next weekend if the bullbar gets delivered in time for installation by then.


Thanks again everyone,


Bob

[jon3950]

The salesman on my last test drive...

Might have found your problem. ;)

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the gearbox will always start in second if left to its own devices. Manually shifting down to first will also help you get moving from a standing start.

Cheers,
Jon

[BobD]

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the SD V6 will kill the 80 series, even if there is a lot of lag so you can't possibly have a problem!


Have you driven it or just been a passenger with the salesman driving? The ESC and traction control won't let you get uncontrolled wheel spin and it is the easiest thing in the world to control the power anyway, so what you are saying doesn't make much sense to me from my experience of over 110,000km in my D4.


As an example, my D4 towing my 1.8t camper trailer left my son in law's 4.8 petrol manual Patrol (with only a roof top tent) in its dust in an open road drag near Katherine last year. He was miffed and reckoned he was in the wrong gear so we had a rematch with the same result. This was a rolling start from about 50kph to 150kph and there was no lag at all.

[Mungus]

HI Bob (ocelot),
I have owned a MY14 D4 for 7 months now. The 1-2 second lag from take off is still present and noticeable most of the times from a standing start or from low speed acceleration, yet I still leave every other car for dead from that point on. It's quite amusing when rice burners or V8's need to floor it more and more, and then more to get in front. Why they do it is beyond me, cause I'm not trying to drag them, it's just the way I drive. I really can't stand taking forever to get up to the speed limit. I get there, then hit cruise. Maybe they think it is shameful to be left behind at the lights by a large 4by. My boss has a 200 series Sahara and it has the same delay from standing or low speed which has caught him out when crossing traffic. It is something you get used to after time and I believe it is just modern day turbo diesels, not matter what make. As you may have read in other threads, if you wish to slip into a tight spot in the next lane where timing is critical to do so safely, simply tap the down shift paddle and it will drop back a few gears giving you instant acceleration. Once in hold the upshift paddle for two seconds and your back in auto.

[SBD4]

I don't ever have an issue with it, use the gears & drive it like a manual if you want to get through the traffic. As mentioned previously, if you reeeaaally want to get out first at the lights, set TR to sand mode and gearbox to sports mode(make sure you're in 1st), when the light turns green, plant the foot. You'll leave quite a few surprised people behind you -- usually sport mode on its own will do the trick. Oh, and of course, choose your competition wisely... there are some you are obviously not going to beat... unless you're in a RR Sport SVR!!

Just for you Epic Pooh....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjG1kD9K1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV07UXpfmpY

[Celtoid]

I'm on D4 3.0L number two now and have been reading these stories for years (since 2010). I don't think it's turbo lag at all....it's the ZF Gearbox (or the software).


If you can do this and do that (at the same engine revs) and then the reaction is instantaneous, it's obviously not the engine.


There are times when I've said "crap" with the lag and other times I've said "crap" when the Truck just takes off like a rocket. As has been stated before .... learn how the car works .... you'll be surprised how little you have to adjust anything ... you just need to get to know it. A perfect, easy example ... the car is designed to give the best fuel economy ... that's it's true agenda in regards to transmission gear selection. If you are 'asleep at the wheel' and gun it, it may be at about 1200 - 1400 rpm in a gear that is not optimal for torque. The gearbox then thinks and changes. If you are in sports mode or manually shift (being awake at the wheel) the car will respond very quickly.


My wife has a 7 speed Merc, which is a fraction of the weight but close to the same torque and still suffers the same issues.


Stupidly, WE have to adjust to the adjustable/adaptive transmissions. :D


However, less responsive than .... Landcruiser, Prado, Pajero, Patrol, Jeep .... their diesel offerings ... unlikely ...


Most of the petrol's ... same result!

[nat_89]

HI Bob (ocelot),
I have owned a MY14 D4 for 7 months now. The 1-2 second lag from take off is still present and noticeable most of the times from a standing start or from low speed acceleration, yet I still leave every other car for dead from that point on. It's quite amusing when rice burners or V8's need to floor it more and more, and then more to get in front. Why they do it is beyond me, cause I'm not trying to drag them, it's just the way I drive. I really can't stand taking forever to get up to the speed limit. I get there, then hit cruise. Maybe they think it is shameful to be left behind at the lights by a large 4by. My boss has a 200 series Sahara and it has the same delay from standing or low speed which has caught him out when crossing traffic. It is something you get used to after time and I believe it is just modern day turbo diesels, not matter what make. As you may have read in other threads, if you wish to slip into a tight spot in the next lane where timing is critical to do so safely, simply tap the down shift paddle and it will drop back a few gears giving you instant acceleration. Once in hold the upshift paddle for two seconds and your back in auto.

HAHAHA ill agree there i love burning away from the lights good fun puts a big smile on the face and as you said its surprising how many people you can catch out with it!!

[Epic pooh]

I love those new sports sbd and the svo one is awesome. But there are two problems: my pockets aren't deep enough and they are not as practical as our 'Swiss army knife' D3/4's !

[nat_89]

My suggestion is drop by your local Toyota Dealer and test drive the Prado 150 3.0L T/D and then see if the D4s lag seems as bad as before.:wasntme:

[drelectro]

Um yeah, so I tried the "Sand Mode' + 'Sport Mode' trick.
That 'fixes' the problem :D

As others have said, it's not the donk holding you back it's the 'puters.

[scarry]

I notice it more off road.

On road it is there,you get used to it,you learn how to drive to reduce it happening.

Unless you want it to happen.;)

Off road,either in low or high range,it can be very noticeable at times.
A good example is in the desert.
If you are driving slowly along a corrugated track,revs at around 1000rpm,and then gun it suddenly to get over a dune,lag is very noticeable.

If you do as others say and hit the accelerator gradually it will reduce the lag.
You just drive knowing it is there,and in a way to avoid it.

[SBD4]

I love those new sports sbd and the svo one is awesome. But there are two problems: my pockets aren't deep enough and they are not as practical as our 'Swiss army knife' D3/4's !

Aint that the truth Mick, but bloody hell, I'd love to get my hands one one. Just like you, I was very disappointed when LR stopped putting V8's in the Disco.

[Owl]

I notice it more off road.
.......



Me too. Try an up hill snatch recovery!

[Epic pooh]

Oh well Sean, I guess they'll not do a v8 in the next disco and I'll have to get a ffrr and give up some practicality. Many years off yet as mine is barely broken in !

What is this off-road lag ? My problem off-road in low range is whiplash not lag !

[scarry]

Oh well Sean, I guess they'll not do a v8 in the next disco and I'll have to get a ffrr and give up some practicality. Many years off yet as mine is barely broken in !

What is this off-road lag ? My problem off-road in low range is whiplash not lag !

That whiplash comes a mili second after the lag.:D:D:D:D:D

[Celtoid]

I notice it more off road.

On road it is there,you get used to it,you learn how to drive to reduce it happening.

Unless you want it to happen.;)

Off road,either in low or high range,it can be very noticeable at times.
A good example is in the desert.
If you are driving slowly along a corrugated track,revs at around 1000rpm,and then gun it suddenly to get over a dune,lag is very noticeable.

If you do as others say and hit the accelerator gradually it will reduce the lag.
You just drive knowing it is there,and in a way to avoid it.


Hey Mate,


Are you 100% sure it's both in low and high?


Reason I ask, is the last time I was on Fraser Island (MY13 SE), the driving was so easy (lots of rain) I drove mainly around in road settings. However, I got a couple of very prolonged periods of inaction when I went to add some welly up rises on the tracks. I literally had my foot on the firewall for an excessive period of time .... nothing like the lag folks are talking about on road, it was worse by a long shot. I seriously thought that I had an issue with the car. I'd never experienced this in my older 6 speed D4.


However, I can't ever remember driving that car with everything 'turned off' before, whilst off-road..... so I can't say with 100% certainty that it wouldn't have happened.


My point is ... either D4, MY10 or MY13 ... both SE 600nm 3.0L engines never demonstrated any lag or hesitance in low range. Quite the opposite ... they have always felt like a caged Lion.


Cheers,


Kev.

[scarry]

Hey Mate,


Are you 100% sure it's both in low and high?


Reason I ask, is the last time I was on Fraser Island (MY13 SE), the driving was so easy (lots of rain) I drove mainly around in road settings. However, I got a couple of very prolonged periods of inaction when I went to add some welly up rises on the tracks. I literally had my foot on the firewall for an excessive period of time .... nothing like the lag folks are talking about on road, it was worse by a long shot. I seriously thought that I had an issue with the car. I'd never experienced this in my older 6 speed D4.


However, I can't ever remember driving that car with everything 'turned off' before, whilst off-road..... so I can't say with 100% certainty that it wouldn't have happened.


My point is ... either D4, MY10 or MY13 ... both SE 600nm 3.0L engines never demonstrated any lag or hesitance in low range. Quite the opposite ... they have always felt like a caged Lion.


Cheers,


Kev.

Kev,

Thinking back i am pretty sure,but can also doubt myself.

I noticed it today,we were playing in some mud,i was in high,which actually made me think of this thread.

I can't remember what TR setting i was in either,i used a few different ones.


You are right though,you sort of have to wait for ages,then it all of a sudden goes,then you have to back off to get things under control.

We may go back tomorrow,i will try in low and report back.

Something else i noticed today, as well, was even though i had DSC off,the orange 'DSC operating' light flashed on a couple of times.

For some that may not know there are two DSC lights,one is DSC off,the other that looks similar comes on when the vehicle is operating DSC.

Tomorrow i have to show up the sons Puma…...again:D

[theins]

If you want to dart in and out of traffic, you need a different car. This is a turbo diesel 4x4, not a zippy sports car...

[Mungus]

If you want to dart in and out of traffic, you need a different car. This is a turbo diesel 4x4, not a zippy sports car...

Yes, true and fair comment. But the fact remains it is capable when asked.

[JamesH]

I haven't been bothered by lag very often, but once when I was supposed to be moving into a gap it was frightening to be honest. It coasted slowly in front of the car already in the lane and just kept slowly rolling waking up at the last second just before the other driver would have collected me.

Another rolling slowly on a straight road in town, in heavy traffic, the traffic in front cleared and I went to accelerate and Nothing Happened. I'm not Daniel Ricciardo with the reflexes, yet I had time to think "Oh, it's that lag thing again, ease off the pedal because it's going to take off in a second, nope nothing happening, whack it into sport and see if that helps, no that doesn't seem to be helping, check the fuel, have you run out? Whatever, I better hit the hazards and make for the side of the road" and then it just woke up as if nothing happened.

It was wasn't a "lag" it was a total freeze. A computer somewhere was doing that whirling symbol your laptop shows when ijust before you do the force quit and reboot.

Glad it has happened only a few times in a few years but I approach entering into traffic very carefully now and hope I don't ever forget and slip onto a roundabout in front of someone who you would normally think was far enough away.

[Epic pooh]

Yes, true and fair comment. But the fact remains it is capable when asked.


Mine is not a diesel 4x4 ... it has the heart of a Jaguar ... It's just as nippy in Sydney traffic as any car maybe moreso because I can see better. Not that I need to nip that much, normally I just indicate and folk make space ... I think that's because it is white.

[theins]

Yes, true and fair comment. But the fact remains it is capable when asked.

Completely agree. I had a D3 for 6 years and have just upgraded to a D4.

What I was referring to was that it takes a second to get up and go... once they are going the acceleration is great...

[Nicky]

Completely agree. I had a D3 for 6 years and have just upgraded to a D4.

What I was referring to was that it takes a second to get up and go... once they are going the acceleration is great...

Does this behaviour apply to the TDV6 3.0, the above posts seem to refer to the SDV6?

[theins]

Does this behaviour apply to the TDV6 3.0, the above posts seem to refer to the SDV6?


My experience is with the 2.7TDV6 (D3) and now the 3.0SDV6. Plus various other diesels I have driven over time. Whilst the lag has been reduced over time, it is still there.


Having also owned (now I do need to confess) a V8 LC Sahara, I know that the petrol engines have different behaviour. The petrol V8 was much more "zippy" than the diesels (no surprise there....) but also much more thirsty...

[scarry]

Kev,

Thinking back i am pretty sure,but can also doubt myself.

I noticed it today,we were playing in some mud,i was in high,which actually made me think of this thread.

I can't remember what TR setting i was in either,i used a few different ones.


You are right though,you sort of have to wait for ages,then it all of a sudden goes,then you have to back off to get things under control.

We may go back tomorrow,i will try in low and report back.

Something else i noticed today, as well, was even though i had DSC off,the orange 'DSC operating' light flashed on a couple of times.

For some that may not know there are two DSC lights,one is DSC off,the other that looks similar comes on when the vehicle is operating DSC.

Tomorrow i have to show up the sons Puma?...again:D

Hmm,you may be right,i couldn't get it to do it in Low.

Need to try again sometime as where we were was not the ideal place to check it out thoroughly.

[shanegtr]

My 2.7 D3 has a little bit of lag from a standing start. If I want to quickly get into traffic if found the easiest way around it is to quickly throw the left foot on the brake and give the engine 1200-1500 rpm just before your ready to take off. Gets the turbo working just before you take off and turbo lag is no existent

[~Rich~]

In a D3 just plain sand mode works a treat.

[Celtoid]

My 2.7 D3 has a little bit of lag from a standing start. If I want to quickly get into traffic if found the easiest way around it is to quickly throw the left foot on the brake and give the engine 1200-1500 rpm just before your ready to take off. Gets the turbo working just before you take off and turbo lag is no existent




I've actually done that at traffic lights on steep hills in my D4, when trying to work out this lag issue. And the car takes off hard.


I agree that this technique could get the turbo (or primary in the 3.0L D4's case) on lots of boost but is it possible that it's also interacting with the gearbox in some way? ... as in the transmission reacts to the building torque in the engine, thus removing any question of doubt in it's "the gearbox's" mind. So this translates to no hesitation .... just go!


Just a thought.


Either way .... it's pretty easy to get used to and automatically work around .... but it would be really, really nice if LR could just get their **** sorted :wasntme:

[LGM]

Had my D4 since Sep 2011. Never noticed a turbo lag! Mind you my previous vehicle, now with SWMBO is a D2 and that definitely has a turbo lag.

On my drive home from work and yesterday sat at the 'only' set of lights that I need to negotiate and was able to give the young guy in the falcon ute next to me a bit of a fright.

Imagine that, an old fart in a big SUV having a crack in the traffic light derby. I don't / didn't feel any turbo lag.:twisted:

Am I the only one who thinks this way??????