Axles, Diffs, CV's & Hubs... what to do?

[Mercguy]

I'm apologizing upfront for this question, I've searched thread after thread after thread and still cannot find a concatenated response, so I'm *hoping* to put it in one spot, in case other RRC owners who want to (or have done this before) increase their O/R capabilities, or are investigating larger diameter tyres or engine swaps (or both)

Data:
1. vehicle is a completely standard Oct 1991 build RRC. i.e. no mechanical mods.

it has:
3.9L v8 with 14CUX injection
4HP22 automatic
BW VC centre diff
Standard front & rear differentials.
Springs are standard/unknown. Dampers are Koni. Boge load leveller is still in place.
standard 16x7" ET33 3 spoke wheels with LT225/75R16 cooper ATR's


Desired outcome:
33-35" tyres without the vehicle looking like a jacked-up land-bruiser.

improvement in articulation if possible (superflex arms do not seem to be available for the RRC)

Understood that a body lift & small increase in spring length req'd. to fit the larger wheel/tyre combo, as well as et-25 rims and flares.
(but is this all that is req'd? - i.e. LRA's 'kit')

For the moment, discount the engine swap stuff, I started a thread in the tech section for that stuff.

However, pending the outcome of the engine/gearbox swap and the fitment of larger diameter tyres, I know that the OE axles/cv's/hubs etc may not be up to the task.

So the question is:
1. do I find a complete pair of live axles from something else; or
2. do I upgrade the internals of each to cope with the increased torque & larger diameter tyres.


I've looked at these 24 - 35 spiline hytuff axles etc, but there is simply too much information and conjecture - everyone does stuff differently in their vehicle, so I just do not know what the best solution is.

Also, I really do not have a desire to fit locking centres to the front or rear. Sure, they may be perfect for some, but I would much prefer to install some ATB centres, than to use a full locker. I feel that overall this setup would be far more useful than a locker, and would be a better setup for the on-road driving - which is about 70% of the current use.

So everyone rubbishes the RRC's axles & cv's from what I have gleaned from hundreds of threads - I'm wondering if it is simply a case of misuse & abuse or poor quality. The vehicle I own has been really well looked after, and despite having 312000km on it now, it still drives as-new. (maybe this is due to the service history @ Graeme Cooper ??)

So let's get down to brass tacks....

Either I find a front end and rear end from a disco etc... or I rip out the internals from the RRC's axle housings and replace with all-new beefed up stuff.

Let's assume I take option #2, what I'm planning would be something like the following:

24 spline (or larger) axles
upgraded CV's
new swivels (teflon coated??)
new hubs (questionable - strength versus axle sizes?)
new atb diff centre, rather than a locker.
'pegging' (if required?) or would a different centre carrier be better?
camber / caster modifications to the front housing (good idea or not?)

Someone suggested using ford 9" housings with the RRC's tubes. I don't know if this would work, but I suspect it was for ratio availability?

Also salisbury versus banjo housings on the rear .... surely the sensible thing to do is keep the banjo, or is the salisbury simply that much stronger, that it is a far better option?

I'm no stranger to modifications, but they have to be done properly, and provide a decent advantage over a standard part with 'an upgrade'.

So the advice (or examples) I am chasing are those which make the drivetrain more or less 'bulletproof' for using 33-35" tyres, and to at least maintain the articulation or better it, without significant detriment to the on-road driveability.

bear in mind, I'm no rock crawler, no winch competitor and no hardcore 4x4 park driver... All the RRC will be doing, besides towing boat/ camping trailers, is stuff like the tele track and the vic high country (examples) and maybe strezlecki later next year.

In the past, the patrol needed lockers for the tele and money was spent on lifts & diffs, but it was crude.

I'm hoping the modifications required on the RRC will not turn it into a jap truck.

So for those out there with the experience, please provide your perspective, what worked for you, what modifications would you deem mandatory and what is optional.

It's a pretty big upgrade, but at the end of the day, I want the mods to work as a package and not just like some riceboy aftermarket parts sticker-truck.

thanks in advance.

[Vern]

To keep it simple, i'd go on to ashcrofts website and order an axle and cv package, 2 atb's, 4.12 h/duty ring and pinion sets, and the bits for your lt230 you are going to put in.
Pegging may not be necessary for thw driving you will do, neither will the salsbury.

[Mercguy]

Thanks Vern.
I've been looking at the maxi-drive axles as well... Just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak and get all the accurate information so I can start accumulating the bits n pieces.

[kreecha]

If I could add my 2c worth.... I hope you find this beneficial :-)

I would;

Buy post-95 V8 D1.

Put diff's in RRC. Dispose of rest of car. (well not all of it. Space dependant).

Put in vented discs from Defender.

Maybe upgrade CV's if I had cash (but probably not because I did Cape York with 235/85r16 in 2014. ( I like 235/85r16 - cheap, plenty (object perspective) of clearance, got me to cape york, lorella springs, ltchfield, kakadu, coffin bay NP, Charlie Morland, T.Truck, ETC)

ATB's F&R. Change R&P if I had spare cash. for example; play with T/case ratio and diff ratio.

LT230 instead of BW.

Begin flaming...... :-)

[Vern]

OK I will got ya suit on:D.
Why would you buy a disco just for the diffs, for the cost of that you could get all your after market axles!
If mercguy is changing to 33-35's, he would want to change diff ratio's.

IF he decides he needs to upgrade his brakes, then just buy the defender bits he needs.:)

[kreecha]

OK I will got ya suit on:D.
Why would you buy a disco just for the diffs, for the cost of that you could get all your after market axles!
If mercguy is changing to 33-35's, he would want to change diff ratio's.

IF he decides he needs to upgrade his brakes, then just buy the defender bits he needs.:)

Hi Vern,
I constantly peruse Gumtree for cheap D1's. They are abundant in certain parts of Australia. For example; SEQLD, Within the greater SYD area, Within the greater MLB area.

Why I would buy a D1 'just for the diff's'

My search criteria for D1's is $1k or less. They are common. $1k I doubt would get after market axles. (my caveat is patience and the AULRO marketplace will get you that... with patience. Patience.)

I do agree that for 33-35's a R&P ratio change would be required. However for the 235/85R16 I suggested D1 ratio's would surfice.It also would not mess with the speedo read out obscenely.

I am just thinking cheap, swap in and out, very little mechanic's involved.

With a cheap D1 (blown engine/defective fuel injection/not running & ATB's with 235/85R16's I would suggest change from $2k, and a very effective off-road vehicle.

[Vern]

Sooo spend $1000 to replace **** diffs with **** diffs? I can't see the point:D

After market axles go straight in exactly the same as standard axles, nothing tricky:)

[Corgie Carrier]

If you want cheap, put a GQ diff in the front and an 80 series cruiser diff in the rear.

4.11 gears, stronger axles & centres, for well under a grand.

All you need is the centre ball joint mount on the rear welded on.

KREECHA: Why would you buy a D! for $1k when you can get them sooo much cheaper

I bought one for $250 V8, auto on gas running and another I got for the cost of a RRC rear seat (it had no gearbox, TC or power steering)

[Mercguy]

If you want cheap, put a GQ diff in the front and an 80 series cruiser diff in the rear.

4.11 gears, stronger axles & centres, for well under a grand.

All you need is the centre ball joint mount on the rear welded on.


This is interesting. I had not thought of this as a viable option.

Apart from welding the BJ mount, what other fab is req'd to fit them in... spring perch mods etc. or does everything line up exactly?

'assuming' a GQ front diff was fitted to the RRC, would it then be possible to use the superflex arms or is that still a no-go because of some idiosyncratic RRC thing? For some reason superior do not do a superflex for the RRC but will do it for Disco 1 ?

I'm figuring that if I have to pull a complete axle housing out, then I may as well overhaul them completely (that is my intention anyway) so naturally the bits that attach to the axle will also come under scrutiny.

The main issue is to examine whether or not it is worthwhile spending the additional $ upfront, or to delay wait until before the next big trip north.

It's one thing to do the diffs, but since the suspension needs modification to fit 33-35" tyres, then I have to look at the whole cost. So the ashcroft/maxidrive axles/hubs/cv's are a sound idea. Not sure if I can source ATB centres for an 80 series or GQ, and my guess is they would probably be more expensive. However, the GQ front axle housing is pretty damn strong, which is an added bonus. BUT, I think maxidrive/ashcroft axles etc would be a bit stronger than OE nissan / tojo.

[Corgie Carrier]

This is interesting. I had not thought of this as a viable option.

Apart from welding the BJ mount, what other fab is req'd to fit them in... spring perch mods etc. or does everything line up exactly?

You can change the spring mounts or use 80 series springs in the front and change the shock towers to the ones with twin shock capability and use those mounts to the standard GQ shock mounts.Other than that the front is a straight swap.

'assuming' a GQ front diff was fitted to the RRC, would it then be possible to use the superflex arms or is that still a no-go because of some idiosyncratic RRC thing? For some reason superior do not do a superflex for the RRC but will do it for Disco 1 ?

RRC and D1 chassis are the same, the superflex arms that fit the D1 fit the RRC, some members on here have them in their RRC, check out the superflex arms thread in this section. As for the GQ superflex arms, I haven't looked into that as I don't have the money to even think about that.

I'm figuring that if I have to pull a complete axle housing out, then I may as well overhaul them completely (that is my intention anyway) so naturally the bits that attach to the axle will also come under scrutiny.

That is what I am doing in my D1, I have an air locker for the front and a detroit locker for the 80series in the rear and both will have all new bearings and seals when the lockers get fitted.

The main issue is to examine whether or not it is worthwhile spending the additional $ upfront, or to delay wait until before the next big trip north.

It's one thing to do the diffs, but since the suspension needs modification to fit 33-35" tyres, then I have to look at the whole cost. So the ashcroft/maxidrive axles/hubs/cv's are a sound idea. Not sure if I can source ATB centres for an 80 series or GQ, and my guess is they would probably be more expensive. However, the GQ front axle housing is pretty damn strong, which is an added bonus. BUT, I think maxidrive/ashcroft axles etc would be a bit stronger than OE nissan / tojo.

If you don't wnat lockers just limited slip diffs, you can reshimm the 80 series, I had this done to my 75 series troopy (same diff centre) and the GQ diff can be fitted with an MQ/K rear limited diff centre.

For lift, I have gone with the LRA body lift and a 2" spring lift and cut guards and flares so the 35" tyres will fit.

I did this on a price only basis, as the jap diffs where cheaper than the ashcroft set up, but I do lose a little ground clearance due to the larger diff pumpkin on both diffs.

As for strength, I have had a 75 series troopy for 16yrs and have not broken a CV or axle and mine has the smaller (hilux type) diff, so I don't think I will break a GQ one.
It all depends on what you want to do with your truck, my D1 is a pure bush truck.

[Corgie Carrier]

CORRECTION: the superflex thread is in the technical section

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/158446-superior-engineering-superflex-arms-rovers.html

[Disco Muppet]

I agree with Vern.
Spend your money once, spend it on Ashcroft gear, and reap the rewards of your expenditure.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Mercguy]

So I'm looking at 31 spline setups, and atb centres.
Then I came across the the dana 60 (sals) conversion thread again, and re-read it

Costly, but a handy way to increase GVM capacity (& towing).
Not sure I'd do it unless I found a set, because that front diff is pretty damn rare as far as I can tell.

So that brings me back to GQ. I'm familiar with it. but the GQ housing is also prone to incorrect caster alignment and the very familiar nissan patrol death-wobbles when you hit about 80km/h, and while on a nissan it's fixed with new bushes and swivel pins, I'm still reluctant to further investigate this as a viable option.

Then I got to thinking about stupid things.... portal axles. Yeah yeah I know stupid. but the follow-up on tibus stuff hasn't occurred, and we know maxidrive don't do them and I could use mog or c303 portals.... but I'm not interested in doing 'conversions', and then it dawned on me....
can use the GQ diff and marks' adapters portals... and this might completely alter all the requirements for axle upgrades - when a reduction portal can take a 33-35" tyre, without extra axle loading, as well as give the necessary lift, without altering suspension geometry to the point where huge $ mods are required.

So this warrants some investigation, but I'm also looking into the strength of the front stub axles, if fitting the 24/31 spline axles.

more research to do....

[Vern]

So going from just wanting to do mild 4x4ing, to now going dana60 and portals, make ya mind up:p

[simmo]

Hi I agree with Vern, there's' not that much wrong with the land rover diffs/axles that would warrant expensive vehicle modifications and change out, and loose the character of what is a very comfortable &competent offroad car anyhow.
New ATBs, ( I think that's the acronym for torque sensing differentials ), LT 230 mechanical transfer case, some stronger axles and drive flanges and your good to go.

I never needed to replace a drive flange or CV or axle yet in 100,000 kms of driving and have done some good touring and mountain camping trips etc. If you take reasonable care the car will do almost anything. I spent a fair amount of time mountain touring in the company of a RRC, and was always amazed how comfortable and competent it was. ( Only spring and damper mods and bigger wheels ). Unless you want to go hard core the only other mod I would recommend is a winch. cheers simmo:cool:

[Mercguy]

So going from just wanting to do mild 4x4ing, to now going dana60 and portals, make ya mind up:p

Ah well, the investigation of replacement axles & portals was to see if it could solve all my drivetrain/suspension 'issues' (not issues per se, but more realistically 'desired outcomes') in one hit. Notably, but not restricted to:

1. extra clearance (ground)
2. extra clearance (can run 35's without needing spring/damper mods)
3. **** factor.
4. no need to go over the top with 300m axles, cv's and hubs.
5. other minor advantages (if for example, using the marks adapters portals, comes with dual brake callipers etc.)

disadvantages:
1. exhorbitant cost for what they actually are.
2. extensive modification required - significant additional costs over and above the portal axles.
3. engineers certificate req'd - insurance premium hike etc etc... (been there before, can't really say it's worth the hassle, even after it's all been done to compliance standards)
4.the RRC could end up looking like a humvee.
5. huge increase in unsprung mass.

Like I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the drivetrain components in rovers, so I'm simply doing my due diligence and canvassing/researching all options, of which some may not be exactly viable cost-wise.
Like all things, the benefits must / need to significantly outweigh the capital expenditure.
The end goal is longevity, robust reliability and to minimize the ongoing servicing cost, be that by safely extending the recommended service intervals or using HD/extended service life components.

Maxidrive / ashcroft axles, cv's stub axles seem to be the most effective solution at the moment.
Just need to work out exactly what specification I should fork out for - pay the extra for the big-spline or do I just go with proven 24 spline setups.

The things that worries me about the drivetrain is the additional stress a 33-35" tyre will place on the driveshafts and cv's / bearings etc.
Combined with the engine & trans swap, the additional torque and very quick revving engine may place torsional loads on parts which i would not expect to suffer any damage under normal circumstances.

I have not catered for any heavy towing (caravan) scenarios, and not intending to either. So I have taken on board the recommendations, and now need to ascertain if they are fit for purpose.

Would be good to know more info about the swivels etc though. It seems as though there are a number of options to enhance strength and reduce turning circle etc. anyone got slotted swivels or changed them for other types?

[350RRC]

Merc,

Suggest you read Blackrangie's posts and the responses on here and Pirate 4x4, a lot has already been covered quite recently!

cheers, DL

[Mercguy]

Re-igniting this after months of indecision and procrastination...

Finally made the decision to go for e-lockers, hituffs, maxi drive flanges and ashcroft CV's. I realized I would not be happy with a heavily modified non-rover axle under the front or rear.

I've planned out the 33/35" upgrade, now I'm gradually accumulating parts, and was close to purchasing the springs, dampers and superior front arms this week but on Friday last week I got thrown a curveball, and my front left tyre copped one huge tek screw in the sidewall that was not repairable.

So, I ended up with some 245/70R16 Mickey baja STZ radials on the standard rims for the moment. Bummer really, as it was 1200 bucks I didn't really want to spend on tyres (had the KM2's sitting at home on offset rims, which I could have pulled had I been in a position to do that, but it was not possible), but realist in me reckons these will still be quite useful, at least until the lift goes in. Plus, someone else will benefit from a pay-it-forward when I offload a heap of good parts.

Nonetheless, this mishap paves the way for a staggered mechanical upgrade, which will not hurt my hip pocket so hard. First the LT230, then diff centres & axles / drive flanges etc, then later on a CW&P upgrade when the 33's and springs / cranked fronts go in.

It's become quite apparent that it is indeed all too easy to sink copious amounts of $$$$ into these vehicles without raising a sweat. However it is important to me to make it bulletproof (as possible within budget) so I do not have to worry about it out on a trail in the middle of nowhere.

It is going to take some time though. Given that I am methodically reconditioning every single item as I go, it is going to be a slow process. Slow, but enjoyable ;)

[Lockee]

So my 93 is getting built with the following
Front 4.1 GBR reverse rotation cwp
Early arb locker maxi drive axles
Early Rangie cvs and outer axles
Vented slotted and dimpled rotors
Defender calipers

Rear has a macnamara conversion with Hilux centre
4.1 gears Detroit locker
30 spline macnamara axles
Need to bore stub axles to fit

[Lockee]

So my 93 is getting built with the following
Front 4.1 GBR reverse rotation cwp
Early arb locker maxi drive axles
Early Rangie cvs and outer axles
Vented slotted and dimpled rotors
Defender calipers

Rear has a macnamara conversion with Hilux centre
4.1 gears Detroit locker
30 spline macnamara axles
Need to bore stub axles to fit

All to run 33s 3.9 R380 and lt230 for a fast tourer to tackle anything

[blackrangie]

Re-igniting this after months of indecision and procrastination...

Finally made the decision to go for e-lockers, hituffs, maxi drive flanges and ashcroft CV's. I realized I would not be happy with a heavily modified non-rover axle under the front or rear.

I've planned out the 33/35" upgrade, now I'm gradually accumulating parts, and was close to purchasing the springs, dampers and superior front arms this week but on Friday last week I got thrown a curveball, and my front left tyre copped one huge tek screw in the sidewall that was not repairable.

So, I ended up with some 245/70R16 Mickey baja STZ radials on the standard rims for the moment. Bummer really, as it was 1200 bucks I didn't really want to spend on tyres (had the KM2's sitting at home on offset rims, which I could have pulled had I been in a position to do that, but it was not possible), but realist in me reckons these will still be quite useful, at least until the lift goes in. Plus, someone else will benefit from a pay-it-forward when I offload a heap of good parts.

Nonetheless, this mishap paves the way for a staggered mechanical upgrade, which will not hurt my hip pocket so hard. First the LT230, then diff centres & axles / drive flanges etc, then later on a CW&P upgrade when the 33's and springs / cranked fronts go in.

It's become quite apparent that it is indeed all too easy to sink copious amounts of $$$$ into these vehicles without raising a sweat. However it is important to me to make it bulletproof (as possible within budget) so I do not have to worry about it out on a trail in the middle of nowhere.

It is going to take some time though. Given that I am methodically reconditioning every single item as I go, it is going to be a slow process. Slow, but enjoyable ;)

Good choice with the driveline, put an ashcroft atb in the LT230 for sure, can I make a suggestion, look at the storm series (firestorm) builds at LRA, see what they use and do the same, there is a guy that built a green one at home with the help of LRA and they engineered it for him, great looks, bulletproof and reliable, Or if you can wait, save up some more and drop it off :D