Puma turbo upgrade

[cal415]

Hi All,
Looking at doing a few mods to my 130 before i head to darwin in july, I've got to do the turbo gasket and i am considering swapping the turbo out for a upgraded one from Alive or BAS while i am at it.

Has anyone done this mod in in Australia? I already run a Alive tune using an Atric device which works great so i am leaning more towards Alive at the moment.

Thanks,

Mick.

[Tombie]

It will need the remap changed so suggest sticking with what you know.

[MLD]

For what it's worth i'm led to believe that a variable vein turbo properly tuned is a more tactile modification than the hybrid turbos that were being sold as high performance. The little i know of the hybrids they work a treat up high in the RPM range but have a tendency to over fuel low in the range.

An example of a (TD5) hybrid turbo poorly tuned is the video of Stefan under the trip reports for Watagans a few weeks back. See from 9.40 min marker. Granted that Stefan's truck was a work in progress and the tune was not yet sorted but from the over fuelling i witnessed it will take some close attention to find the ideal.

MLD

[Tombie]

Your other option is a BAS VNT, remove your map on the Atric and sell the unit, then get the BAS tune with the VNT.

[cal415]

I guess it has yet to be done out here? no one has one??

Both Alive and BAS list there turbo upgrades as hybrid VGT Turbos, neither do VNT? im no turbo guru but the VNT vs VGT thing doesnt sound like there is alot in it with some good points towards going VGT.

[Tombie]

Sorry yes, VGT...

[cal415]

Ok so BAS haven't bothered to respond to me, alive has been slow in responding, 1000 pound for alive plus 500 pound surcharge if I don't return my turbo which sounds stupidly over the top, that's without any shipping.... I would really like to give it a go but the cost is crazy, anyone got an old puma turbo laying around they would let go cheap?

[fatman]

VGT and VNT isn't the same?
Variable-geometry turbocharger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-geometry_turbocharger)

As far as i understand uprated turbos for pumas are for getting more max hp - for low revs torque gain,i wouldn't be so sure..but i am no expert.
Ps
Do you happen to have any egt readings with the alive map?
I am hunting an issue on mine..
Thanks.

[cal415]

No EGT but had planned to do it with the turbo, as for vnt and Vgt, I never said they were the same?

From what I understand low down power remains pretty much unchanged mid to high revs sees a big improvement but I can't seem to find any real hard figures, neither BAS or alive show any dyno runs they just talk about peak power....

[fatman]

A fellow member (ZeDefender) on defender2.net fitted an upgraded turbo DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - BAS remap, intercooler and turbo (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic29822.html) maybe you can send him a message..
But since you also got a leaking gasket(like him - and many of us - DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Why my turbo leaked (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic29986.html) ),he also had some initial issues with egt's?? with the new setup and then installed an egt meter and confirmed this DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - BAS remap and Allisport intercooler (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic30828.html) (10th post) you'd better contact him for infos.
Cheers.

[ezyrama]

Have you tried talking to Bruce Davis Landover in Sydney?q

[AndyG]

At the risk of hijacking the thread,
What is the path to increasing bottom end torque as opposed to top end hp. Without opening up the block.

Is the final result determined by the ECU mapping?

[Loubrey]

At the risk of hijacking the thread,
What is the path to increasing bottom end torque as opposed to top end hp. Without opening up the block.

Is the final result determined by the ECU mapping?

Andy,

On a 2.4 that is certainly the case. Alive Tuning gives you two maps as standard when you buy the Atric device upgrade (at least was the case about a year ago) and one is usually a freeway tune which can include removal of the speed limiter and a second one for towing and slow, low power stuff.

I haven't kept up with the 2.2 options, but a good intercooler (Alive, Alisport, BAS etc) and an ECU remap makes a massive difference to these engines.

I've got the Alive Ultimate Defender intercooler fitted with a BAS "balanced" remap and my 2010 90 pulls like a train right through the range.

Cheers,

Lou

[Steve223]

I have the Bell VVT and a BAS tune in Defender TD5 and loving it. The hybrid has been removed from Disco and will be replaced with a VVT in some time it runs better with standard turbo the with bigger hybrid

[Tombie]

Ok so BAS haven't bothered to respond to me, alive has been slow in responding, 1000 pound for alive plus 500 pound surcharge if I don't return my turbo which sounds stupidly over the top, that's without any shipping.... I would really like to give it a go but the cost is crazy, anyone got an old puma turbo laying around they would let go cheap?


Try again with a different subject - his email filter is pretty strong and sometimes don't get through.

[fatman]

Hope the "upgraded" turbo is thicker and stronger on its mounting flange that the stock one.. :mad::mad: DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Turbo leaks again! (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic35766.html)

[cal415]

Well going through some old posts i stumbled across this, i ended up getting the alive hybrid through Bruce Davis, at this stage i have gone through a few tunes but never been 100% happy with the results, the car is back with Bruce at the moment and he is going to have another go at the tune to see if we can get better results...

Basically the tune was ok up top, good increase in power at higher revs but sacrificed to much down low for my liking - with the old turbo/tune i was making good power from 1650rpm, while its better then it was with the stock tune its lost that punch down low but really comes on hard about 2100rpm now, i also havnt been happy with the increase in black smoke since either but each tune i have tried has made a little difference and got closer to the mark. I haven't chased it for a while until now as it had to go back for issues with the PWR radiator i also got off him so getting him to try and sort the tune once and for all...

I cant help but feel this tune/turbo setup is more suited to a little 90 than it is to my fat arse 130, its been a little over 12 months since it was done and i feel while its making much better power mid to high revs value for money with this mod isn't great. but lets see how it comes back this time, i might be surprised.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

[MrLandy]

Has anyone here had a turbo gasket / over heating issue with a BAS remap? Like some of the guys on Defender2 forum have?

[alittlebitconcerned]

Yep, me. I am currently getting it all bolted back together again after the 4th gasket failure. My tune is very mild too

[El Rey]

Yep, me. I am currently getting it all bolted back together again after the 4th gasket failure. My tune is very mild too

Hi, did you upgrade your intercooler too?


Cheers

[1nando]

Don't want to hijack this thread but would running a higher flowing turbo reduce egts? Less boost required to make the same power equals cooler inlet temps hence helping reduce egts or is this false??

Also what egts are people getting with their tunes? I always wonder this, and how does the upgraded intercooler affect them?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Yep, me. I am currently getting it all bolted back together again after the 4th gasket failure. My tune is very mild too

Jeepers! 4th! That is concerning. Are there any gasket options?

[alittlebitconcerned]

Hi, did you upgrade your intercooler too?


Cheers

I did. Used an Allisport.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Jeepers! 4th! That is concerning. Are there any gasket options?

I've been using the 3mm copper ones.

[El Rey]

I did. Used an Allisport.

Ouch, thanks for the info. Do you have any opinions on whether it's the upgrade that is responsible, or some other combination of factors?

[cal415]

Still not performing as i had hoped, still sorting some other issues out though as well, has anyone else done a bigger turbo on a puma?

also for those who have done the remap, how does yours handle towing at speed? my recent trip up the highway to QLD from Newcastle, i had a decent load in the tray, full water tanks, full fuel tank, kimberly camper in tow with a decent load on board probably 1200-1400kg total including camper, i was loosing speed on the hills regardless of what gear/RPM, the bigger hills had me back to 60kph at times... i dont remember ever having this issue with the original turbo doing similar trips up the highway. Coming home with a much lighter load i thought would be better but it was much the same with some hills again getting me back to 4th gear and 60-70kph.

[PAT303]

There's something wrong for sure,my cub camper is 1500kg and my Tdi tows it better than that.My TDCi is stock except for the de-cat pipe and it tows it without issue,120km/hr on the flat easily.The only time it struggles is if I get caught behind a caravaner and try to accelerate from directly behind up hill in an overtaking lane,I drop back a few lengths and get a run on it. Pat

[1nando]

Still not performing as i had hoped, still sorting some other issues out though as well, has anyone else done a bigger turbo on a puma?

also for those who have done the remap, how does yours handle towing at speed? my recent trip up the highway to QLD from Newcastle, i had a decent load in the tray, full water tanks, full fuel tank, kimberly camper in tow with a decent load on board probably 1200-1400kg total including camper, i was loosing speed on the hills regardless of what gear/RPM, the bigger hills had me back to 60kph at times... i dont remember ever having this issue with the original turbo doing similar trips up the highway. Coming home with a much lighter load i thought would be better but it was much the same with some hills again getting me back to 4th gear and 60-70kph.

Maybe it an actuator/boost issue??

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app

[cal415]

suggested that to bruce davis, they are going to have a look, does any one know a way to show boost on a scangauge?

I did some very basic testing on stockton bridge near my house, based on what i know of how it was stock, pre alive tune, and again pre alive turbo, its performance seems closer to standard then the stock turbo and alive tune right now.

[1nando]

I would suggest to get a boost gauge installed and monitor it.

If its not a boost issue maybe try a fuel pump and injector reset/learn.

Other than that a bigger turbo feeds more air into the engine. Assuming that there is no issue with the intercooler and inlet air supply then the next issue is one of either turbo actuator or fuel.

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app

[isuzurover]

Yep, me. I am currently getting it all bolted back together again after the 4th gasket failure. My tune is very mild too

Have you filed the faces to check they are flat?
Try ditching the gasket and using a thin film of silicone or vht copper gasket cement (but no gasket).

[cal415]

Ok, so i set up my scan gauge to give me a reading on boost, im seeing a max of about 18psi, but typically sits around 17 when its on boost - i cant seem to find what boost i should be seeing for a puma.

Watching the boost lower in the RPM certainly makes a few things clear about why it feels laggy compared to the original turbo. Climbing a hill under 2000rpm it struggles to reach boost and revs drop pretty fast on the steeper hills, i see the boost gradually increaseing from about 1500rpm reaching about 13psi by 1800-2000, full boost after 2000.

Driving up slight inclines i would have expected it to pull ok from 1500rpm or lower in 2nd/3rd/4th, boost doesnt make it over about 6-7psi and it just drops RPM forcing me to down shift - im not talking about super steep hills but mild inclines that would never have seen me downshifting with original turbo.

I've his turbo on for a while now, i dont remember it being so bad when it first went on though i do know its never been the same down low in the RPM since getting it.

[roverrescue]

Cal
Your boost pressure seems pretty close to stock
I have a BAS jigger but no ECU upgrade on my 2.4 just EGR delete
Manifold pressure max at about 17-19psi over atmospheric

S

[cal415]

Roverrescue, Thanks for the info, from what i understand when they do the tune for these upgraded turbos they dont up the boost pressure but more aimed at flowing more air volume, so i guess its close to the mark - it occasionaly spikes to over 18 before settling around 17. Can you tell me what yours does boost wise under 2200rpm, thats where this setup is really lacking right now.

[patclan]

I have had an alive tune for around 5 yrs, been through various mods and had the map changed, I had the LR software upgraded about 2 months ago and got a new Alive map for the new version, and since then it suffers similar issues to what you are describing, I don't have a bigger turbo though. But compared to the old alive map it sucks, no power low down, second gear on a hill dies out just after 2500 revs, change to third and it is not much better, the first four gears are just flat and feels like I am hanging around for the turbo to kick in. 5th and 6th are ok on the motorway.

I have asked them to review it to see whats up and why but still waiting on a response. Might be better for you going through Bruce Davis, but I am wondering who is doing the remaps these days, maybe the apprentice is trying his hand out.

I don't tow anything at the moment, but it feels like I am constantly towing a 3 ton camper into a headwind. The original map is actually better at the moment.

I would insist they go through the map with a fine tooth comb to make sure it is right.

If I don't get a decent map back that resolves my issues I am heading to BAS for one next year.

Pat

[roverrescue]

Cal
Ima few thousand nm away from the 130 at moment
BUT
A recent induction event letting out the "whoosh" led me to drive 400km with a IC hose leak. If I kept boost under 10psi then leak was not too terribly
Just happened to coincide with about 2000RPM
Boost builds very quick from 9psi on up so I'd hazard a guess that whilst accelerating though 2200 you could see somewhere around 12-15psi????
Obviously in cruise condition at 2200 this may settle down around the 10 or so

In a few weeks I'm happy to do a BAS plot record of absolute manifold pressure RPM roadspeed and atmo pressure

A 5min recording though varied conditions would give you tonnes of standard tune boost data vs speed vs RPM to ponder?

S

[Tombie]

Ok, so i set up my scan gauge to give me a reading on boost, im seeing a max of about 18psi, but typically sits around 17 when its on boost - i cant seem to find what boost i should be seeing for a puma.

Watching the boost lower in the RPM certainly makes a few things clear about why it feels laggy compared to the original turbo. Climbing a hill under 2000rpm it struggles to reach boost and revs drop pretty fast on the steeper hills, i see the boost gradually increaseing from about 1500rpm reaching about 13psi by 1800-2000, full boost after 2000.

Driving up slight inclines i would have expected it to pull ok from 1500rpm or lower in 2nd/3rd/4th, boost doesnt make it over about 6-7psi and it just drops RPM forcing me to down shift - im not talking about super steep hills but mild inclines that would never have seen me downshifting with original turbo.

I've his turbo on for a while now, i dont remember it being so bad when it first went on though i do know its never been the same down low in the RPM since getting it.



Exact same problem in the U.K. Recently.

Tried everything you mentioned.

New fuel rail / sensor and back to normal...

No codes logged

[cal415]

Hi Tombie, was this on a UK forum? do you have a link?

[Tombie]

Hi Tombie, was this on a UK forum? do you have a link?



Angry Puma FB page.

[roverrescue]

Cal
I have a couple of logs if you want measuring boost revs and speed
Pm me an email addy and I can send you the PDF?

S