Tow bar fitting

[Themadmob]

Can I bolt a standard tow ball in place of the military tow hook on the rear x member of a perentie ?

[The Beast]

you can buy a combo like this, should bolt straight on.
Pintle Hook Combination Hitch ADR62 02 6 Tonne TOW BAR Trailer Towing | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PINTLE-HOOK-COMBINATION-HITCH-ADR62-02-6-TONNE-TOW-BAR-TRAILER-TOWING-/251273262984?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3a810db788)

[BadCo.]

Can I bolt a standard tow ball in place of the military tow hook on the rear x member of a perentie ?

Please stop posting threads without searching. Both this one and your recovery one have been previously covered.

You may as well read through this whole section, a lot of good information in here.

[Themadmob]

Thanks The Beast

[Mick_Marsh]

These links may help:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/199356-perentie-treg-tow-hitch.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/205109-tow-hitch-plate.html

I wonder if you could fit something like this?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[BadCo.]

These links may help:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/199356-perentie-treg-tow-hitch.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/coil-sprung-military-land-rovers/205109-tow-hitch-plate.html

I wonder if you could fit something like this?
http://www.shop1auto.com.au/Images%20towbars/Landrover_Defender_110_Towbar_2490R_800pix.jpg

What you also have to consider is the spare tire. If the hitch receiver goes to far back then it will fowl on the spare.

I've been thinking about getting a plate with the pintle hole pattern welded to a receiver that sits forward more with two supports off to the chassis. That way you can get a goose neck tow ball hitch and still keep your pintle, just need longer bolts.

[67hardtop]

The local trailer parts place here in Adelaide on Pt Wakefield rd has these receiver hitches already made up and also standard pintle hitches to fit them. Standard 4 bolt pattern.

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

[Mick_Marsh]

The local trailer parts place here in Adelaide on Pt Wakefield rd has these receiver hitches already made up and also standard pintle hitches to fit them. Standard 4 bolt pattern.

Cheers Rod:wasntme:
Manufacturer and model number please.

[rathgar]

The local trailer parts place here in Adelaide on Pt Wakefield rd has these receiver hitches already made up and also standard pintle hitches to fit them. Standard 4 bolt pattern.

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

To suit a perentie chassis?

[67hardtop]

Ok been busy this morning, got some pics and info. The place is SA Trailer and Chassis Equipment, Ph. 0882627170. Email sales@satrailer.com.au or website www.satrailer.com.au .

For some reason its not letting me load pics.
Ok so description, its solid square steel where it fits into towbar. It has a braced plate welded to it about 12mm thick. It has 8 holes in it to attatch the pintle hook. The shaft is about 40 cm long and has a hole for the pin. Their special price is $55 + gst. This one ismade by a different manufacturer. It weighs about 6kg. They also do their own receiver for $77 + gst. They have the pintle hooks here also, 10 tonne for about $140, or the combination ball and pintle rated at 3.5 tonne (ball rating) for about $161. Prices are all plus gst.
Hope this helps

Cheers Rod


Sent from my GT-P5110 using AULRO mobile app

[67hardtop]

To suit a perentie chassis?

Dont know. Maybe call them. See previous post.

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-P5110 using AULRO mobile app

[Themadmob]

Thanks Rob ... great info ... much appreciated

[rathgar]

[SIZE="4"]Ok been busy this morning, got some pics and info. The place is SA Trailer and Chassis Equipment, Ph. 0882627170. Email sales@satrailer.com.au or website index (http://www.satrailer.com.au) .

For some reason its not letting me load pics.
Ok so description, its solid square steel where it fits into towbar. It has a braced plate welded to it about 12mm thick. It has 8 holes in it to attatch the pintle hook. The shaft is about 40 cm long and has a hole for the pin. Their special price is $55 + gst. This one ismade by a different manufacturer. It weighs about 6kg. They also do their own receiver for $77 + gst. They have the pintle hooks here also, 10 tonne for about $140, or the combination ball and pintle rated at 3.5 tonne (ball rating) for about $161. Prices are all plus gst.
Hope this helps

Cheers Rod

I think what you are describing here is a commonly available adapter to convert a hayman reese type receiver to a pintle hook. Not what I'm looking for. Looking for someone who has an adr approved set up to allow lowering of the tow height on a perentie and ideally allowing a hayman reese type receiver to be fitted.

[LandroverScott]

Ok just remember the Max towing weight of a 4x4 perentie is 900kg. And there is no ADR approved tow hitch adapter to Hayman reese type that I am aware of.

Regards

[BadCo.]

Ok just remember the Max towing weight of a 4x4 perentie is 900kg. And there is no ADR approved tow hitch adaptor to Hayman reeve type that I am aware of.

Regards

That 900kg max is for the stock crossmember/pintle combination isn't it? Not for any other type of hitch receiver that you get fabbed up.

[Themadmob]

I am assuming so .. the 900kg is unbraked .. the X member is way way stronger thsn the standard Defender X member ?

[BadCo.]

I am assuming so .. the 900kg is unbraked .. the X member is way way stronger thsn the standard Defender X member ?

**** no, its full of holes!

[rathgar]

Ok just remember the Max towing weight of a 4x4 perentie is 900kg. And there is no ADR approved tow hitch adapter to Hayman reese type that I am aware of.

Regards

Ok i'll bite again. Where does the manufacturer say that?

When I spoke with Land Rover Australia (or what ever thaey are called at the moment) they refered me to here! Very helpful.

[BadCo.]

Please don't start this argument again :(

[67hardtop]

I think what you are describing here is a commonly available adapter to convert a hayman reese type receiver to a pintle hook.

Yes thats what I was advising ppl off. As for Perentie towing capacities I have no idea. All I know is that 750kg is the maximum ur allowed to tow unbraked, on any vehicle. Hope this helps.

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-P5110 using AULRO mobile app

[Dervish]

**** no, its full of holes!


I'm guessing you've never had a good look at a Defender rear crossmember.

[Mick_Marsh]

That 900kg max is for the stock crossmember/pintle combination isn't it? Not for any other type of hitch receiver that you get fabbed up.
It's because of the rated GVM and GCM of the Perentie.
Not a lot to do with the hitch or crossmember although they would have been included in the engineering calcs.

[Mick_Marsh]

I am assuming so .. the 900kg is unbraked .. the X member is way way stronger thsn the standard Defender X member ?

Makimim unbreaked GTM is 750kg. 900kg would require a braking system on the trailer. Refer VSB1.

[Mick_Marsh]

Please don't start this argument again :(

Unfortunately there are opinions and rules.
Rules can be confirmed. Opinions are taken at your own (and possibly others) risk.
I know a fellow who gets into all sorts of costly situations because his actions are guided by opinion rather than rules.

[rathgar]

And the internet is full of opinion and short on fact.

Like a 900kg maxmium tow rating! VEH G 100 (or what ever the correct aconyn is) states 1200kg. But then is that a user document deleveloped by the army/ defence forces?

Mick, what is the GCM of a 4 x 4 perentie? And where is this stated by the manufacturer?

Ian

[Mick_Marsh]

And the internet is full of opinion and short on fact.

Like a 900kg maxmium tow rating! VEH G 100 (or what ever the correct aconyn is) states 1200kg. But then is that a user document deleveloped by the army/ defence forces?

Mick, what is the GCM of a 4 x 4 perentie? And where is this stated by the manufacturer?

Ian

Don't know for the 4x4 but the GCM is about 7.1t or 7.2t for the 6x6 with a GVM of 5.6t. My TARE was 3.98t.

I'll have a look at the info I have at home

[Dervish]

I've always been told you go off what is on your rego papers. In NSW, my two 4x4s were GVM: 3050/GCM: blank and GVM: 3200/GCM: 6700 (and no, it's not an RFSV). Now in QLD, the first is GVM: 3800 (!)/GCM: blank. Still waiting for the second rego to come through. It's a bit of a bureaucratic lucky dip.

Could someone whose Perentie is actually registered as a "Military 4x4" post what their rego paper states the GVM/GCM are? I suspect LRA never made/submitted a vehicle spec sheet for the Perentie 4x4, so in the eyes of the law we're all just driving 110s - GCM and all. Happy to be proven wrong though.

[Mick_Marsh]

Don't know for the 4x4 but the GCM is about 7.1t or 7.2t for the 6x6 with a GVM of 5.6t. My TARE was 3.98t.

I'll have a look at the info I have at home
I just checked "7610-66-128-4353 technical manual user handbook truck, utility, lightweight, MC2"
It states
When loaded, it is rated to tow a gross trailer mass of 0.8 tonnes.
realistically, 0.8t, 900kg, 1200kg, is a far cry from the 3 tonnes people expect to tow with it.
"It's a Defender!" I hear them say.
No, It's not. There are significant chassis differences that affect the towing capacity. It may be able to toe 3t but I would recommend to get it engineered first.

[PeteFox]

Could someone whose Perentie is actually registered as a "Military 4x4" post what their rego paper states the GVM/GCM are?

On my 6x6 with NSW rego, it says the following:
Make: LROVER
Model: MILITRY
Variant: (blank)
Tare Weight: 4000
GVM: 5600
GCM: (blank)

Pete

[rathgar]

... There are significant chassis differences that affect the towing capacity. It may be able to toe 3t but I would recommend to get it engineered first.
Yes but those differences don't reduce the GVM infact its it is the highest (or equal) of any similair period 110 that can tow between 3850 and 4000kg

[rathgar]

I just checked "7610-66-128-4353 technical manual user handbook truck, utility, lightweight, MC2"

Thanks Mick, What is this manual can you post a link or copy? And who wrote it?

[rathgar]

Oh and before anyone comments I havent towed more than 750kg with my Perentie and wont until I am happy its legal!

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes but those differences don't reduce the GVM infact its it is the highest (or equal) of any similair period 110 that can tow between 3850 and 4000kg
You're right. Those differences will probably have little effect on the GVM but appears to have a significant impact on what it can tow.
Don't get confused between GVM, GTM, ATM and GCM.


Thanks Mick, What is this manual can you post a link or copy? And who wrote it?
It is an Australian Army handbook.
I have a paper copy. I don't know where an electronic copy is.

[rathgar]

.... It is an Australian Army handbook.
.....

Thanks Mick, that's OK I am only looking for manufacturer documentation (and I havent found any yet, but in NSW the authorities have a formula to cope with that).

And I know my GVM's, GCM's, GTM's and ATM's don't worry.

[Mick_Marsh]

Thanks Mick, that's OK I am only looking for manufacturer documentation (and I havent found any yet, but in NSW the authorities have a formula to cope with that).

And I know my GVM's, GCM's, GTM's and ATM's don't worry.
I don't think the "manufacturer" data will exist. These were custom built Landrovers for the ADF.

What is theis formula the NSW authorities have? It has been demonstrated on this forum that the 6x6 is quite capable of moving heavy loads. I intend to get the engineering on my 6x6 to re-rate the towing capacity to as much as I can get.

[rathgar]

I don't think the "manufacturer" data will exist. These were custom built Landrovers for the ADF.

What is theis formula the NSW authorities have? It has been demonstrated on this forum that the 6x6 is quite capable of moving heavy loads. I intend to get the engineering on my 6x6 to re-rate the towing capacity to as much as I can get.

I dont think it does either. I just want to get as close to know it does as possible. In NSW if manufacturer info is unknown then max allowable tow is 1.5 x the unladen mass of the tow vehicle i.e. for my FFR 2250kg(from memory - but that is army documentation - probably should get a weigh bridge certificate) x 1.5 = 3375kg

Towing - Road rules - Safety & rules - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/towing.html)

I think I have said this before.

[Mick_Marsh]

I dont think it does either. I just want to get as close to know it does as possible. In NSW if manufacturer info is unknown then max allowable tow is 1.5 x the unladen mass of the tow vehicle i.e. for my FFR 2250kg(from memory - but that is army documentation - probably should get a weigh bridge certificate) x 1.5 = 3375kg

Towing - Road rules - Safety & rules - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/towing.html)

I think I have said this before.
How interesting! So, my 6x6 could tow 5.97 tonnes. That gives a GCM of 11570 kg, Over 11 tonnes! Should be a doddle getting the 4.5 tonnes I want.
The book I have states the axle weights are 1350kg front and 1950kg rear so that is 3300kg GVM. 1250kg plus 1000kg for 2250kg tare.

[PeteFox]

Guys
According to the operators manual for the 110 6x6 (civilian), the GCM is 7050kg, which is the same for all 110 variants with the Isuzu engine.
As far as I can see the civilian 6x6 is identical to the military one at least at the towing end.
I can't see an increase in GVM beyond 7050kg being allowed without an engineers certificate, and any engineer will want to see some concrete information from the manufacturer, which basically doesn't exist.
The only legal way to tow big loads is to reduce the tare weight.
Also as far as I can see there are no figures on permissible ball weight.
Pete

[rathgar]

How interesting! So, my 6x6 could tow 5.97 tonnes. That gives a GCM of 11570 ...

Yeah but I think those figures are only going to apply to a vehicle with GVM of less 4.5t. Not a truck!

[rathgar]

...Also as far as I can see there are no figures on permissible ball weight.
Pete

I was going to contact Dixon Bate (manufacturer of the pintle hook) to check the specs.

[Mick_Marsh]

I was going to contact Dixon Bate (manufacturer of the pintle hook) to check the specs.
4.08 tonne
4.08T Light Towing Pintle - Dixon-Bate (http://dixon-bate.co.uk/shop/gb/pintles/23-dixon-bate-35t-universal-coup-.html)
The pintle is only a small part of the equation. You also have to take into account the bolts used, what the pintle is connected to and what that is connected to. There may be a number of things that factor into the equation.
I have a Dixon Bate pintle attached to the Commodore which has a heavy duty tow kit installed. It still isn't rated to tow 3t. It is only rated to tow 2.1t.

[rathgar]

4.08 tonne
4.08T Light Towing Pintle - Dixon-Bate (http://dixon-bate.co.uk/shop/gb/pintles/23-dixon-bate-35t-universal-coup-.html)
The pintle is only a small part of the equation. You also have to take into account the bolts used, what the pintle is connected to and what that is connected to. There may be a number of things that factor into the equation.
I have a Dixon Bate pintle attached to the Commodore which has a heavy duty tow kit installed. It still isn't rated to tow 3t. It is only rated to tow 2.1t.

A jigsaw is probably a good way to descibe it and each part must fit properly.

The part number for that coupling is not what is stamped on mine.

Generally speaking the max. coupling weight for any given set up is dictated by the towbar (which they don't have) and/or the coupling.

[Mick_Marsh]

A jigsaw is probably a good way to descibe it and each part must fit properly.

The part number for that coupling is not what is stamped on mine.

Generally speaking the max. coupling weight for any given set up is dictated by the towbar (which they don't have) and/or the coupling.
And the tow bars are generally designed with the design of the tow vehicle in mind.
To give you an example, the VR Commodore is rated to tow 1600kg with the factory towbar but, if you add bracing in the boot (the upgraded towing package), with the same factory towbar the vehicle is now rated to tow 2100kg.

Looking at the Perentie, in order to fit the spare wheel between the chassis rails, the rear section connecting the rear cross member was designed with a much smaller chassis rail section. This must have a significant impact on it's towing capacity.
If you don't believe the documentation, the only way to determine the towing capacity is to have an engineer do the calculations.

[Chris078]

Lets not forget in all of this that the civilian 110/Defenders have a rear sway bar, the military ones do not.

That fact alone could justify the low rated tow amount the army imposed on the 4x4.

[rathgar]

...If you don't believe the documentation....

No documentation from the manufacturer has been found. That is my key point.

Yes there are engineering changes. I think the perentie is capable of towing significant loads.

But it not about "this is changed, that is different" or "I think this" Its about the manufactures documentation (or lack of it) not a user manual.

Part of me dosnt really care because I want a different tow hitch set up and none exists so it will need engineering anyway when I get to that.

I dont want the forums full of one (incorrect in my opinion) side of the argument.

To look at another situation;

My User documentation says "Max highway speed 100km/h".

Can I legally do 110km/hr on the freeway where the signposts say I can?

[BadCo.]

Please don't start this argument again :(

This is going around in circles. Can someone please just go to an engineer and do it properly?

[rathgar]

I think you are correct Badco the circle has been proved to be round again.

But along the way It has allowed me to investgate a few possible leads to documentation and correct an incorrect statement about a 900kg tow limit.

I will only take it up when I think there is an avenue to explore.

Thanks what a forum is about

[BushBandit]

I don't think the perentie towing capacity has anything to do with the design of the perentie. I think the perentie would easily and safely be able to tow the same as any civilian 110. I think it's got everything to do with the defence force saying alright we want to tow 900kg trailers on average, testing the vehicle for this weight with all the variables the army would have such as off-road use, fuel economy, inexperienced drivers, cowboys and everything else and going yes that is safe in all conditions that's the limit.

Badco is right there is no point debating it. If you want the towing capacity up rated you need to have it engineered even if only for insurance purposes. You don't want to have an accident with an overloaded trailer and void your insurance especially if you hurt or kill someone. I've done this on a few custom vehicles it's a relatively simple process and shouldn't be any issues just a few dollars.

To give you an idea of towing capabilities as opposed to the limit on the perentie. Even the Hyundai Santa Fe and Honda CRV can tow 2500kg's. If a workhorse like the perentie can't tow more than a tiny little soccer mum, crossover, soft-roader I'd be very surprised...

The 6x6 might be a completely different story though being a heavy vehicle and essentially a truck. At the very minimum I'd say it will be more expensive. Unless of course you have the GVM down rated so it's just a normal vehicle first but this might impact your upgraded towing capacity as well. You'd have to talk to an engineer.

[BadCo.]

I don't think the perentie towing capacity has anything to do with the design of the perentie. I think the perentie would easily and safely be able to tow the same as any civilian 110. I think it's got everything to do with the defence force saying alright we want to tow 900kg trailers on average, testing the vehicle for this weight with all the variables the army would have such as off-road use, fuel economy, inexperienced drivers, cowboys and everything else and going yes that is safe in all conditions that's the limit.


Completely agree with this, sounds plausible and was what I was thinking when the first towing thread debate started.

Now I'm just holding out for someone to reengineer their 4x4...

[PeteFox]

No documentation from the manufacturer has been found. ...............
Its about the manufactures documentation (or lack of it) not a user manual.


Been down this road before. The user manual is a manufacturer's document because it was produced by Land Rover. If you engage an engineer he will accept what is written there and no more until you come up with additional data that also comes from Land Rover, which is not available. Failing that you can engage an engineer to do the maths on the chassis and certify it for additional loading........... Cheaper to buy a bigger truck.
Pete

[BushBandit]

Been down this road before. The user manual is a manufacturer's document because it was produced by Land Rover. If you engage an engineer he will accept what is written there and no more until you come up with additional data that also comes from Land Rover, which is not available. Failing that you can engage an engineer to do the maths on the chassis and certify it for additional loading........... Cheaper to buy a bigger truck.
Pete

Not really. Lots of people have the towing capacity of cruisers increased for towing big vans. In their case it includes using various GVM increase kits. But it's a simple bunch of calculations using the vehicle and trailers GVM to work out a new GCM. The cost of that process is around $2500 hardly the cost of buying a bigger truck.

[rathgar]

Now I'm just holding out for someone to reengineer their 4x4...

That wont help you or anyone other than the vehicle that it is done for.

[BushBandit]

That wont help you or anyone other than the vehicle that it is done for.

This is spot on and different engineers will come to different conclusions some may require suspension and tyre upgrades some may not all depends on the engineer. You find a good engineer and your in the clear. If you got a mate even better because whatever the engineer says is what goes even if it's completely wrong...

[rathgar]

This is spot on and different engineers will come to different conclusions some may require suspension and tyre upgrades some may not all depends on the engineer. You find a good engineer and your in the clear. If you got a mate even better because whatever the engineer says is what goes even if it's completely wrong...

And then he's the one they sue!

[BushBandit]

And then he's the one they sue!

Correct it has happened before, one of the many downfalls of having an incompetent road authority with legislation that constantly changes and no one can keep up, understand or interpret it... Even the road authority themselves...

[rathgar]

Been down this road before. The user manual is a manufacturer's document because it was produced by Land Rover.

That's not what the name, address and phone number on VEH G 100 says.

[Bearman]

Completely agree with this, sounds plausible and was what I was thinking when the first towing thread debate started.

Now I'm just holding out for someone to reengineer their 4x4...

You can always get one made up to fit.

[BadCo.]

That wont help you or anyone other than the vehicle that it is done for.

No it won't, but it will give us all an idea atleast.