Making a 2WD drive DEFENDER

[cj7mexicodefender]

Can u make a Defender part time 4wd? I know there's kit ti make Full time Land Cruisers 2WD, is there such a thing for a Defender? It's a 2010 Defender.... Would your fuel consumption increase considerably? The reason I ask is because I don't know if I am going to be able to keep the axles off my ROLLED (Virtually Useless) LR Defender and may have to use my other ones for my jeep. FYI I bought a rolled Defender in Mexico, where I live and have to use it as a donor vehicle into my imported Jeep..... It may end up being a part time 4WD Jeep if I don't use the DEF transfer and axles.... I don't mind the loss of full time 4wd AT ALL. Can't argue with less rolling mass and hopefully I will get better MPG. I do a lot of hwy driving and a LOT of dirt road driving up and down the BAJA peninsula. DO NOT mind a 2wd in the dirt, you just drive accordingly. Plan on stretching WB to 105-10 inches later, which will help significantly. My apologies to those that already answered this question, I am explaining my situation AND explaining why I am doing what I am doing.... thanks loanrangie!!

[JDNSW]

Can u make a Defender 2wd? Iknow there's kit ti make Full time Land Cruisers 2WD, is there such a think for a Defender? It's a 2010 Defender.... Would your fuel consumption decrease considerably?

There are kits that enable the LT230 to be made into selectable four wheel drive, so that it can be used on Series Landrovers, so I suppose this could be used for converting a Defender to two wheel drive. I believe free wheel hubs have been produced for coil sprung Landrovers, presumably for the very early 110s which were part time four wheel drive, but I have never actually seen any, and as fgar as I know they have never been sold in this country.

It would be very unlikely to make a significant difference to fuel consumption, but may reduce vibration and improve acceleration slightly. In exchange the handling could be expected to be worse, especially on loose or slippery surfaces.

If you did carry out such a conversion, it is very unlikely that the cost of the conversion (probably end up in the order of $10,000) could be recovered in fuel savings within the life of the vehicle, let alone the reduction in resale value.

John

[brad56]

Hi I am interested to see how you go with this please keep us posted
Cheers
Brad

[debruiser]

Correct me if I'm wrong here (just thinking out loud). Could you not just remove the transfer, front axle (or at least all the drive line from inside), and front prop? This would be a significant weight reduction as well. I guess you'd need something on the back of the gearbox so you can bolt a new rear prop onto it. OR replace the gearbox with something from a car (ie. something that never had a trans on it). Also if you removed the front axle it could be replaced with a independent front end.

I agree with you on the handling John. I think it would be detrimental to it's gravel road handling, but if the owner was a purely city driver or highway driver who wanted to tow a trailer or something maybe it would be ok.

Could I be so bold as to say that if your intension was to get a 2wd tow vehicle, then just go buy an F-truck :D :wasntme:

[BigJon]

It is technically feasible to make a Defender part time 4wd, but utterly pointless. A search should reveal that this topic has been done to death several times over.

[simmo]

The fuel economy of the Td-5 defenders is already very good , so any improvements would be marginal. If you're a regular dirt road driver it would be disabling one if the main benefits of the Defender. They are so good to drive on dirt and gravel roads, and more importantly its safer. I think if you drive regularly on dirt roads you would be kicking your self if you spent money to make them rear wheel drive only. The LR constant 4WD is a tried and proven system with 40 years of R&D behind it. Better to spend your money on True tracks or ATBs for the diffs, or suspension improvements. cheers simmo

[loanrangie]

I think i this case being a driveline swap into an old jeep it may make it easier for the op, if the front and rear axles are used then keep it as permanent 4wd.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[Red90]

Yes. Ashcroft sell the conversion kit. There will be no change in fuel consumption. It makes them horrible to drive on dirt roads.

[Tombie]

Why do people want to ruin a great setup?
Or even more illogical- spend hundreds/thousands to save in fuel...

[loanrangie]

I think you guys havent read about the ops project, he is swapping the running gear from a 2010 110 puma into a cj7 jeep.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[VladTepes]

I recently did a temporary conversion to 2WD, here's how I did it.

1. Destroy the rear end off-road. Twist the diff so the prop shaft drops out.
2. Lock centre differential.
3. You now have a Front Wheel Drive.

The beauty of this method is that conversion to a rear wheel drive is nearly as easy.

:lol:

[PAT303]

Your driving style has the biggest influence on economy. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

IF you're going to put a landrover front axle under a jeep with the landy tcase its not worth the money or effort to convert the Tcase. the landrover front axle is designed to be driven at all times and will deal with it happily, (the caveat being if it wasnt a permanant 4x4 jeep and the handling goes screwy for you but doing the temporary conversion trick fies the handling then you convert it, dont panic you can do the conversion with the Tcase bolted up, well you can in a landy anyway)

all your going to wind up with is a non standard Tcase that will be more frustrating to adjust and repair later if it breaks because it doesnt use off the shelf parts Save the money from converting the Tcase and spend it on sorting the axle install.


If your going to put the lt230 into a jeep and keep the jeep axles. Very roughly.

if you have coils all the way around leave the tcase alone
if you have leafs on the front convert the tcase to 2wd with selectable four wheel drive
if you have the open steering knuckle axles convert the tcase

really shortly

no you dont get any improvement in economy by converting the tcase
you will increase rear tyre wear
if you have the auto select jeep freewheelers or convert the landrover drive flanges to selctables you will flog the slip joint on the propshaft
If your jeep was a permanent 4x4 variant and you convert it to 2wd you're in for a new experience in bad handling

[Red90]

Here is the kit: Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/miscellaneous/part-time-4wd-kits/lt230-part-time-kit.html)

[cj7mexicodefender]

Thxs again, I imagine part of the reason for the bad handling is the t-case has a 50-50 split as opposed to part time t-cases being less than a 50-50 splt?? Another reason for doing what I'm doing is the scarcity of LR Defender parts for an axle. Do you know what type of axles this Defender has?? I was told a P-38 in the front and ??? in the rear?? Thx for the input. The reason I ask is because I understand that the Defender functions the way it does BECAUSE of all it's components, I can't keep the frame and therefore I am stuck with having to do other mods.... It's probably getting leaf springed 1 Ton axles.... In terms of rear wheel wear I am used to rotating so again that is a problem with 99.9 % of vehicles here anyway. We just keep rotating if we keep logging the miles. THX for all input, IT IS appreciated, Landies are new to me and my shop.
IF you're going to put a landrover front axle under a jeep with the landy tcase its not worth the money or effort to convert the Tcase. the landrover front axle is designed to be driven at all times and will deal with it happily, (the caveat being if it wasnt a permanant 4x4 jeep and the handling goes screwy for you but doing the temporary conversion trick fies the handling then you convert it, dont panic you can do the conversion with the Tcase bolted up, well you can in a landy anyway)

all your going to wind up with is a non standard Tcase that will be more frustrating to adjust and repair later if it breaks because it doesnt use off the shelf parts Save the money from converting the Tcase and spend it on sorting the axle install.


If your going to put the lt230 into a jeep and keep the jeep axles. Very roughly.

if you have coils all the way around leave the tcase alone
if you have leafs on the front convert the tcase to 2wd with selectable four wheel drive
if you have the open steering knuckle axles convert the tcase

really shortly

no you dont get any improvement in economy by converting the tcase
you will increase rear tyre wear
if you have the auto select jeep freewheelers or convert the landrover drive flanges to selctables you will flog the slip joint on the propshaft
If your jeep was a permanent 4x4 variant and you convert it to 2wd you're in for a new experience in bad handling

[isuzurover]

...Do you know what type of axles this Defender has?? I was told a P-38 in the front and ??? in the rear?? ...

If it is a 110/130 defender with a tdci engine it will have a P38 type diff in the rear and a rover type diff front.

They are pretty mediocre in strength and if you have a D44 or stronger in the jeep you should keep them.

The P38 type diff has the pinion bearings spaced a bit too close together. Also the version fitted to the defender suffered from manufacturing quality issues. Dave Ashcroft has a fix.

The diffs and axles are OK for up to 33" tyres if you are gentle.

There is also a problem with the gearbox-t-case adaptor. Again Ashcroft transmissions have a part which fixes the problem.

If I were you I would put the engine/gearbox/tcase in but stick with jeep/dana axles as long as you have D44 or D60s

[Blknight.aus]

Thxs again, I imagine part of the reason for the bad handling is the t-case has a 50-50 split as opposed to part time t-cases being less than a 50-50 splt?? Another reason for doing what I'm doing is the scarcity of LR Defender parts for an axle. Do you know what type of axles this Defender has?? I was told a P-38 in the front and ??? in the rear?? Thx for the input. The reason I ask is because I understand that the Defender functions the way it does BECAUSE of all it's components, I can't keep the frame and therefore I am stuck with having to do other mods.... It's probably getting leaf springed 1 Ton axles.... In terms of rear wheel wear I am used to rotating so again that is a problem with 99.9 % of vehicles here anyway. We just keep rotating if we keep logging the miles. THX for all input, IT IS appreciated, Landies are new to me and my shop.

Isuzurovers info is more or less on the money, with regards to the axles, the parts for them are fairly common you just need to order online. A copy of the manuals for them can be had buy buying a RAVE CD. its worth it but most of what you need for info to get axles sorted is in the forum somewhere and most people will happily type out the odd bits of info and part numbers if you need them.

you're about on the money for the handling problem we may have different definitiions for how the torque split works out of the Tcase but essentially without the drive on the front end to pull it around the corner it'll wash wide, and you dont usually have the power to break the rear end traction to flick it around and even if you did if you dont have an 8HA under the back edn you generally dont have the drive line strength to deal with it.

If you do have the 8ha down the back and youve done the 2d conversion unless you have the 4bd1 up the front its going to be like driving a porsche, Theres 4T trucks getting around with lighter rear ends in them than the 8HA.

[Red90]

If it is a 110/130 defender with a tdci engine it will have a P38 type diff in the rear and a rover type diff front.

They are pretty mediocre in strength and if you have a D44 or stronger in the jeep you should keep them.

Most stock 44s are more or less the same strength as a Rover axle. Both can and need to be built.

Bigger question, is the front axle a right side drop?

[cj7mexicodefender]

If it is a 110/130 defender with a tdci engine it will have a P38 type diff in the rear and a rover type diff front.

They are pretty mediocre in strength and if you have a D44 or stronger in the jeep you should keep them.

The P38 type diff has the pinion bearings spaced a bit too close together. Also the version fitted to the defender suffered from manufacturing quality issues. Dave Ashcroft has a fix.

The diffs and axles are OK for up to 33" tyres if you are gentle.

There is also a problem with the gearbox-t-case adaptor. Again Ashcroft transmissions have a part which fixes the problem.

If I were you I would put the engine/gearbox/tcase in but stick with jeep/dana axles as long as you have D44 or D60s
Thank you!! VERY useful information. I was advised by somebody that knows a lot more than I do about Defenders as to the durability and strength of these axles and you confirmed that point in spades.... My jeep has a dana 44 in the rear, but I have Ford F-350 front and rear that I am gonna mate to a flipped DANA 300. I have 2 300s and they are bulletproof... Too bad I am not in Au, as I think there is a market for the Defender axles and t- case there! i have seen a lot of issues for the MT82 in th e Mustang but hopefully its an inherent problem to the Mustang and if its in the Defender I saw the fix.... I had guesstimated 33 inch tires for the Defender axles and you also confirmed that, much appreciated. I understand that what makes the defender what it is is the combination of all the parts.... and I know that if I abuse some components on their own I will be sorry later. I think the Combination I am hoping to achieve will work.... then later stretching WB to 105-110 inches is the next project as I dont think I can do everything right now $$$$$$$$, my pesos budget is meager........

Do you know what years other LR vehicles had these axles and this transfer case too?? Anybody??

[cj7mexicodefender]

Most stock 44s are more or less the same strength as a Rover axle. Both can and need to be built.

Bigger question, is the front axle a right side drop?

front axle is a left hand drop, so I am using a flipped Dana 300
THX again

[isuzurover]

Do you know what years other LR vehicles had these axles and this transfer case too?? Anybody??

The defender axles you have were used from 2003/4 until now, however they will easily bolt into any coil sprung defender shape landrover ( from 1983-now), any range rover from 1968-1992(?) and series 1 discoveries.

The transfer case is an LT230 and is used in more or less the same applications, however only from around 1984 in the range rover. There are a few people in the US using them in offroad race buggies.

[cj7mexicodefender]

Do you know kind of race buggies? Thats what I do for a living and its maybe 10% (if that much) of vehicles in our type of racing that use 4 wheel drive. If I dont use the tcase at least I know where to peddle my wares! I know desert racing has become big in Au in the last few years...

[isuzurover]

Do you know kind of race buggies? Thats what I do for a living and its maybe 10% (if that much) of vehicles in our type of racing that use 4 wheel drive. If I dont use the tcase at least I know where to peddle my wares! I know desert racing has become big in Au in the last few years...

I think rock crawlers and rock racers like KOH - rather than desert racing. Though there is a desert racer on here who runs a rover based rig (and may run an LT230?).
Have a search around on pirate4x4 for more info. User Buckon37s is running one and competed in the last 2 KOH events.

[cj7mexicodefender]

[QUOTE=isuzurover;2331839]I think rock crawlers and rock racers like KOH - rather than desert racing. Though there is a desert racer on here who runs a rover based rig (and may run an LT230?).
Have a search around on pirate4x4 for more info. User Buckon37s is running one and competed in the last 2 KOH events.[/QUThat makes sense, they need the full time 4 wd system.... Seems that as long as you dont use big tires this t-case will hold up. thx again!!

[isuzurover]

...Seems that as long as you dont use big tires this t-case will hold up. thx again!!

The LT230 T-case is by far the strongest part of a landrover drivetrain.
Stronger than most other t-cases out there. Including dana/toyota, etc...

[benji]

It doesn't make any difference in economy or power.
My brother recently drove his d2 around in 2wd.
However it is a ball of fun on a wet road:D

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[cj7mexicodefender]

It doesn't make any difference in economy or power.
My brother recently drove his d2 around in 2wd.
However it is a ball of fun on a wet road:D

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile appii I guess my question would be, was the front diff turning? If so, its gotta use some kind of energy. My plan is to use lockable-(Unlockable) hubbed front differential with a part time 4 wd Transfer case.

[Loubrey]

ii I guess my question would be, was the front diff turning? If so, its gotta use some kind of energy. My plan is to use lockable-(Unlockable) hubbed front differential with a part time 4 wd Transfer case.

This has been debated at length and there is absolutely no perceptible change in economy or available power with a Defender in permanent 4WD or "emergency" 2WD.

People (read supporters of other brands and marques) have over the years claimed increased fuel consumption, excessive tyre wear, loss of available power etc etc when Land Rover opted for permanent or full time 4WD on the Range Rover and Defender. This has obviously been disproved many times over, hence no Land Rover from the late 70's onward have had lockable hubs as they are a complete waste of time when used with the very efficient LT230 transfer case.

To prove this point, almost all manufacturers are now heading towards permanent 4WD or All-wheeldrive, only about 35 years behind the time.

Cheers,

Lou

[JDNSW]

As stated, Rover started using full time four wheel drive with the first Rangerover in 1970 (actually it was used with a somewhat different system in 1948-50 on the first Landrovers). Originally it was used on the Rangerover to enable the driveline to handle more power (without upgrading diffs) by spreading it between front and rear, but even before the model was released Rover had found that the setup transformed handling and had no significant effect on either performance or fuel economy (not that this was much of an issue with the Rangerover in 1970!).

When the Landrover went to coil springs in 1983, the standard setup was full time four wheel drive the same as the Rangerover, but part time four wheel drive was optional (except on the V8). Effectively, they allowed the market to decide. Despite the fact that by then fuel consumption was far more important, and that the four cylinder petrol and diesel engined models were looking pretty underpowered, the part time option was so rarely specified that it was dropped within a couple of years.

Yes, in theory turning the diff and front prop shaft absorb energy, but when turning them without load, this figure must be pretty small. Balanced against this is that the energy absorbed by the rear drive train is at least partly proportional to the power applied, increasing as the increased torque increases tooth contact pressure and bearing load. If this loss was linear with pressure, then you could assume the loss would be the same whether the power was handled by one or two axles, but it seems very unlikely that it is linear. Almost certainly, there will be additional losses with a single axle driving compared to two axles simply because of increased tyre slippage, although this will be driver dependent. None of these losses are very great, but neither is the loss from the driven front axle.

Quite simply, Landrover and Rangerover users have demonstrated clearly over the last 45 years that there are good reasons for using full time four wheel drive and no significant disadvantages.

What made the change practical is that for full time four wheel drive you really need to have CV joints in the front axle swivels - and by the 1980s, the cost of these had dropped (because front drive cars were becoming the norm) to where the cost of these was no longer a significant concern.

John

[ozscott]

I have driven my disco both in rear wheel drive only and front wheel drive only for a few weeks each time - and I can say that they dont feel anywhere near as good to drive when not AWD.

Cheers