MT82 Adapter Shaft

[Loubrey]

As most of us know (or at least have peripheral understanding), in the Puma we've got the Getrag MT82 gearbox mated with the standard LT 230 transfer case that's been fitted to Defenders since the year dot.

While not perfect, the LT230 is a good old unit and the input shaft will most probably last the life of the car (with the occasional seal replacement). However marrying the transfer case to the gearbox is a different issue. The old Leyland unit (LT77) and the Rover unit (R380) had their minor issues, but are pretty solid. The MT82 has however had a few issues, but pretty easy to fix if costly and annoying.

The main issue being the adapter shaft between the LT230 and the MT82. Looking at the shaft you can see Leyland's truck style engineering on the one end and German road going tech on the MT82 side and very apparent limited R&D by a cash strapped LRJ during the Ford years.

For some unfathomable reason Land Rover believed that multiple spline gearing would be able to operate and survive running completely dry (no lubrication what so ever) and totally disregarded the phenomenon of gear "fretting"! The attached pictures shows the condition of my 90's shaft after 5 years and 70,000km. Lots of surface rust and some pretty significant wear on the shaft splines (both on the shaft and the female/ female adapter joining it to the gearbox). While still in one piece, the prognoses was a maximum of 20,000km before total failure which pretty much means total loss of drive.

My car now has the Ashcroft modified MT82 adapter shaft fitted and the gearbox oil freely flows into the joint and time will tell if this is the permanent fix for this now known issue. Southern Land Rover in Perth who fitted it is so impressed that they've already advised 2 other clients that this would be their recommendation outside warranty!

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/mt82-output-shaft-kit.html)

At $650.00 landed in Perth, the kit is half the price Land Rover would charge you over the counter for TUD500020 and LR030054, so well worth considering.

Cheers,

Lou

[Lagerfan]

Hi Lou,

How does she drive with the new shaft? Any noticeable change to the usual backlash klunks & klanks? etc. I would have thought that additional wear (now eliminated) would certainly contribute to making it worse.

Does the gearbox adaptor come with the kit too?

[Loubrey]

Hi Lagerfan,

The 90 drives better than it ever did...

The 3 piece kit is the 2 modified OEM parts - female/ female gearbox adapter and the shaft) as well as the aluminium seal "cup" that replaces the plastic cage thingy inside and which forms the new output shaft seal with an OEM shaft seal and the double o-ring on the female/ female coupling. See Ashcroft's zoom pictures. THe shaft has been machines further back to allow the new seal.

You also get the special "spanner" to tighten the aluminium bit to the coupling.

Land Rover replaced the spacer shims and washers in the transfer case while it was all out. Difficult to know the exact item of improvement, but Pat here on the forum reported significant improvement with just am OEM shaft replacement.

Cheers,

Lou

[bushmech]

Hi Lou,
Have just finished reassembling my 130 last weekend after replacing/modifying my adapter shaft .Your old one looks about 50% better than mine did after only 50,000km ,have been worried about reliability of this part for a CSR trip next month. Thanks to many wise contributors on this forum I decided to check/replace the shaft assembly.For anybody that might want to do this (from my experience this adapter shaft will fail at some stage) I used OEM parts and drilled two 1/4" grease nipples 180 deg apart into the flange at the end of the splines. Using a 25mm hole saw drilled a hole in the adapter housing next to weep hole in the base and covered it with a piece of s/steel plate that I cut to fit between ribs and secured with nut and bolt thru housing (the casting might be a bit thin to tap thread there?) With this plate removed , it is easy to see into hole and with both boxes in neutral,align grease nipple and give it a shot of moly grease at every service .
Having already installed max wheel flanges and now the new adapter shaft this Defer is starting to sound a bit more trust worthy!
Tony

[PAT303]

I've fitted both axle flanges and replaced the adapter,mines clunk free,in the future I'll go the modded adapter and ATB in place of the center diff and forget about reliability. Pat

[PAT303]

Forgot to add,the transit guys have found the Sachs clutch to be the fix to the damper spring issue plaguing earlier vehicles. Pat

[bushmech]

Is this the part that Land Rover failed to install ? A $16 CV boot could eliminate the adapter shaft failure !! I described my grease-nipple addition, only to find a oil leak thru the yoke. This is what I understand Ashcroft has done to lube shaft (did not put any silastic sealer under bolt into g/box) So over Easter the trans case came out again (how I love my Deefer) noticed how much of the grease was been spun out from the shaft. A cv boot from Repco, 25mm x82mm was as close as we could find 80mm would be perfect. Slid boot over end of shaft filled with grease, bashed it in till in place, clamped end of boot with silastic under lip, another shot of grease to nipple.I believe that the grease can now be contained in the boot with no chance of water or dust to get in. Put the lot back together. (see image) Comments please

Tony

[Lotz-A-Landies]

While we're on the MT82 adapter can someone tell me if the female-female adapter (LR030054) is a single piece or is it two parts fitted together in an assembly?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/91573d1425952286-mt82-adapter-shaft-img_0907.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>

The main issue being the adapter shaft between the LT230 and the MT82. Looking at the shaft you can see Leyland's truck style engineering on the one end and German road going tech on the MT82 side and very apparent limited R&D by a cash strapped LRJ during the Ford years.

For some unfathomable reason Land Rover believed that multiple spline gearing would be able to operate and survive running completely dry (no lubrication what so ever) and totally disregarded the phenomenon of gear "fretting"! <snip>

Cheers,

LouHi Lou

Was talking to a LR workshop today about the MT82 adapter, apparently the adapters were supposed to be mated packed with something like lithium grease. Unfortunately there were a whole batch where this step was omitted in the assembly process and the joint was left dry.

There is apparently a service bulletin on the issue.

Still the Ashcroft modification looks well worth the cost.

Diana

[deesse]

I've got the bits to do my shaft & was gonna do exactly as Bushmech did, grease nips & hole on the bottom of the case. Then when I saw the boot to trap the grease I thought yea that's even better. One prob. with that of course is that the boot could end up being "full" of grease if it gets too much, then centrifigal force causes the boot to burst. Again not a real prob. just have to grease it more often & so what if the housing has a ring of flung grease in it. There are 4 of those spots from the uni. joints under the truck already.

[bushmech]

Hi Deesse,
Having put the cv boot on as an after thought seeing how much grease was been thrown out, I would have just packed the boot with a good cv grease, clamped it all up and I bet this part would not require further attention till maybe you replace a clutch or some other reason for removing the t/case.No more clunks thru drive train so far. Look forward to the Canning S R in May!!

[Jason]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had this shaft problem. My decided to go completely 2 days into a three week trip! Complete loss of drive. So after a $1100 tow back to Perth and dropping it at a mates workshop had to load everything into the Freelander 2 and continue the trip..

Meanwhile I ordered and had fitted the Ashcroft shaft. No more clunks from that part! only thing I have now noticed that pulling away feels like something is out of balance with some vibration thought the car. Anyone else had this with any shaft replacement. Could it just be something else needs looking at that I wouldn't have notice before due to the bad shaft? Maybe I will get the driveshafts balanced anyway to eliminate them.

[ozrob]

Hi Lou

Was talking to a LR workshop today about the MT82 adapter, apparently the adapters were supposed to be mated packed with something like lithium grease. Unfortunately there were a whole batch where this step was omitted in the assembly process and the joint was left dry.

There is apparently a service bulletin on the issue.

Still the Ashcroft modification looks well worth the cost.

Diana

Does the service bulletin state which vehicles had the issue, years/chassis batch?

[51mondays]

Hi Lou

Was talking to a LR workshop today about the MT82 adapter, apparently the adapters were supposed to be mated packed with something like lithium grease. Unfortunately there were a whole batch where this step was omitted in the assembly process and the joint was left dry.

There is apparently a service bulletin on the issue.

Still the Ashcroft modification looks well worth the cost.

Diana

Jeez I wonder which ones were not greased. Got my first service coming up and wonder if I should press LR to check. .?

[AndyG]

I can say my 7/7/14 build was not greased :(
apparently a subbie doing the wrong thing and LR QA :D not picking it up,

[justinc]

Every one of these i have replaced ( and there has been lots) have never seen any lube from new. I doubt it was a random act during assembly it just wasn't on the list. Full stop.

From observation i would suggest pulling it and packing it with a good moly grease before 20k is a good preventative measure.

Jc

[Turtle130]

If you want to buy the LR recommended grease it is available in Aus from Associated Gaskets. The name of it is in the owners manual. They shipped it to my door, can't remember the price but it was under $50 for quite a large tub.

[Pickles2]

Well, I "think" the intermediate shaft was my problem too, but sinse Gracie was returned to ULR on the back of a tow truck, after losing all drive, I have yet to hear from ULR to confirm the actual problem,...I've spoken to Bernie (TOP MAN) the W/S manager, & I expect to hear from them this week.
But this has been a BIG wake up call to me. All I can say, if ya've got any"clunking" going on, don't just take it for granted, "ah that's just Defender",...GET IT CHECKED OUT.......much better than getting stuck out on the road.
Pickles.

[POD]

I had my transfer case out a couple of weeks ago as per another thread. Mine has done 210,000km, the splines were bone dry and there was evidence of fretting corrosion, but wear appeared minimal. I put it back together with some moly grease.

[jimr1]

Every one of these i have replaced ( and there has been lots) have never seen any lube from new. I doubt it was a random act during assembly it just wasn't on the list. Full stop.

From observation i would suggest pulling it and packing it with a good moly grease before 20k is a good preventative measure.

Jc
Thanks for this info , I'm only on 7500ks , Do you know if this is still a problem with the last Defenders ? It sounds as though It could well be . The fact that Pickles has had his fail ? Jim ..

[PAT303]

Yep,get it fixed at the next service. Pat

[justinc]

^^^ the sooner the better, yes.

Pulled a 2015 one apart and it was dry too.

Jc

[rar110]

I had my transfer case out a couple of weeks ago as per another thread. Mine has done 210,000km, the splines were bone dry and there was evidence of fretting corrosion, but wear appeared minimal. I put it back together with some moly grease.

This is a pic of my RRV 6hp26 output shaft that failed at about 240,000 for that very reason.

106679

[Wallaby Ted]

I have been told that I need to replace mine in my 2010 2.4 with 72k on the clock as it is noisy and needs to be done before going bush in June. I have been waiting a couple of weeks now for Ashcroft to get them back into stock.

I am going to follow them up again as they were due in the week before last.


Richard

[Wallaby Ted]

If anyone is interested Ashcrofts MT82 adapter they now have them back in stock on their website.

Richard

[malsgoing130]

Not to hijack the thread, but
Does anyone in know who rebuilds transfer boxes here in Perth. Id like to have the hardened bush machined in, all bearings done and the Ashcrofts cross pin put in, all seals done etc etc AND new clutch, thrust bearing put in (mine sounds like helicopter) AND of course while its apart do the adapter coupling replaced again, but with Ashcrofts.

It never ceases to fascinate me how at 77000km I need to do this. The transfer case is leaking like a sieve .

Cheers
Mal

[jimr1]

This has been an informative post . As the old saying goes learn something new every day . The design of a shaft to mate the gear box to the transfer case is a poor by modern automotive standards . To Assembly them with little or no grease is even worse . Many of us on this site are Land Rover devotee's and put up with lots of little problems . I never had a problem rolling up my sleeves and fixing things that many other people can't , or wont do . So to learn that my transfer box should come out to put a dollop of grease is not sitting every good with me !!.. Jim ..

[karlz]

As most of us know....
Cheers,

Lou

Thanks for the great synopsis. I'm a new-ish puma owner so really this summary and potential remedy. Thanks for creating this thread which I will now follow with interest. Ive only done 7000kms in mine, but sont want an early drive failure like pickles.

Cheers Karl

[justinc]

Not to hijack the thread, but
Does anyone in know who rebuilds transfer boxes here in Perth. Id like to have the hardened bush machined in, all bearings done and the Ashcrofts cross pin put in, all seals done etc etc AND new clutch, thrust bearing put in (mine sounds like helicopter) AND of course while its apart do the adapter coupling replaced again, but with Ashcrofts.

It never ceases to fascinate me how at 77000km I need to do this. The transfer case is leaking like a sieve .


Cheers
Mal


Mal forget the crosspin and just fit the whole ATB


JC ☺

[karlz]

After finished reading this thread and others, I'm tossing up between an ashcroft and the Bushmech solution i.e. CV/Grease.

As my Landy is still under warranty what should I do?

1. Ignore and replace for free when it dies
2. Fit the Bushmech unit, would this one void the warranty?
3. Fit Ashcroft and hope no issues
4. do something else

[4wheeler]

So if the shaft is correctly lubricated either from new or early on in life, will it fail or not? Has anyone found a failed shaft that was greased from new?

If slip joints on the drive shafts from the transfer case to the diffs survive many years when lubricated, why not the adaptor shaft splines if lubricated, or are the adaptor shaft joints that sloppy from new that wear is inevitable?

Any information gratefully received.

[bushmech]

Hi Karlz
A local updated his Defender to a MY 14 still under warranty .Old story ,clunk in drive line. Gave him details of Repco CV boot (25x82mm) which he supplied to local dealer who replaced flogged shaft (20K !) with boot all under warranty.Once you fill the boot with grease after greasing coupling (before assembly) then sliding the boot from the trans case end towards the now strapped end on gearbox side it puts the grease under pressure in a totally sealed area ( no need for the grease nipples as I did),there is little chance of this spline failing. I have encountered this problem many times in agricultural machines in a previous life!
bushmech Tony

[ozrob]

How easy or difficult is it to remove the transfer case to lubricate the jack shaft?

[TimNZ]

^^^ the sooner the better, yes.

Pulled a 2015 one apart and it was dry too.

Jc

I got my 2015 done at PDI. I agreed to pay for the time etc if they pulled it all apart and it was already lubricated. Didn't have to get my wallet out.

Cheers,

[PAT303]

Who's PDI?. Pat

[Pickles2]

P.D.I.=Pre Delivery Inspection?
I spoke about this isue in another thread. It was mentioned to me this morning that not all fail. But what happens is that some parts are made at different times/have minutely small different tolerances etc, which, when matched together, over time, can & does, cause an issue. If the parts are perfectly matched, there is less chance of a failure, hense,...some don't.
Sounds reasonable to me, because obviously there are a LOT (majority) of Defenders that don't have a problem in this area. If too many did, there would have to be recalls as in turbo hose & oil pump?
Pickles.

[Avion8]

I got my 2015 done at PDI. I agreed to pay for the time etc if they pulled it all apart and it was already lubricated. Didn't have to get my wallet out.

Cheers,

Tim,

Do you know if this grease was blue in colour?

[TimNZ]

Tim,

Do you know if this grease was blue in colour?

Hi, I supplied the grease - Penrite Molygrease Ep 3%. The dealer only had wheel bearing grease on hand, so the Molygrease seemed a better option.

Just to be clear, I had this conversation with the sales dept. The service team at the "south of the river" LR dealership has been very good to me, and I can't speak highly enough of them. Any time I mention a problem the reply is "we'll get it sorted", and they do. I can't say the same for the other dealer.


Edit: Sorry, missed the question Pat, yes PDI = Pre Delivery Inspection


Cheers,

[TimNZ]

Also... I'm on my fourth "Puma" now, all but the current one had the coupling replaced, (I had none fail, they just got real clunky). A tell tail sign of impending sadness is usually a small rusty stain coming out of the drainage port on the gear box extension housing, (between the gearbox and transfer box).

Hope this helps,

[Avion8]

Hi Tim,

That drainage port is where I had my blue grease leak from as did many other new Defender owners towards the end of 2015. So just wondering if this was the grease for the output shaft? I use Southern Land Rover & find the service good - had my wife's Citroen serviced there for 8 plus years & never a problem. The attached photo is the leaking area in question, & hence the question concerning colour of the grease? I have never seen a definitive answer to this question!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/616.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Heritage%2090/P1030380_zpsntcaw9lm.jpg.html)

[TimNZ]

Hi Avion,

That is the port I am talking about, looks like your vehicle got hit with a good dose of grease! :)

Cheers,

[Avion8]

Hi Tim,

Just wish I could find out what sort of grease it is. Quite a few had big stains on the ground, mine just sizzled out on the exhaust!

[PAT303]

Complete thread drift while all the Perth owners are on here,why haven't we had a defender owners get together at some obscure pub at the end of an interesting drive?. Pat

[spudfan]

The Defender handbook states
"Gearbox extension shaft to transfer box" - Weicon Anti Seize Standard Grade or equivalent.
This indicates that the shaft should not be fitted dry.

[YOLO110]

So, can we take our (under warrantee) Defenders in and demand they check this has been done...?

Along the line of, yes it has, we pay, if not, you pay? That seems quite a neat solution... ?

Confused... as per the other thread too!

[jon3950]

So, can we take our (under warrantee) Defenders in and demand they check this has been done...?

Along the line of, yes it has, we pay, if not, you pay? That seems quite a neat solution... ?

Confused... as per the other thread too!

I may be able to tell you next week. Mine's going in to have the clutch replaced and while the transmission is out they will split the boxes and lubricate the shaft if neccessary. At the moment we're doing it with the expectation that if it's adequately greased I'll pay for the extra labour and if not it's a warranty claim.

I'll see if I can get some photos.

Cheers,
Jon

[Graeme]

If some are greased and others are not, why would you offer to pay for the work if found to be greased unless there was already evidence of grease at the drain hole? Anyway, hasn't LR stipulated that the boot has to be fitted if the g/box is removed?

[jon3950]

Not quite sure what you're getting at Graeme, but I'll try and answer your question. I and several others have had some mysterious blue stuff leaking out of the drain hole in the transfer case but it doesn't look like grease to me.

The lubricant specified by LR is actually an anti-sieze not a grease and is grey not blue. Unless they are lubricating it with something else now I wouldn't expect to see an anti-sieze paste leaking out the drain hole the way this blue stuff is.

I've been looking into this and cannot get any definitive answer from my sources as to whether or not the late builds were lubricated. The only way to be certain is to check the shaft which requires separating the transfer case from the gearbox.

After discussing it with the dealer I have decided, for my own peace of mind, to take the opportunity while the transmission is out to check the shaft as there won't be any substantial extra cost to do it. If a problem is found then clearly it should be a warranty claim, if there is no problem and I have asked them to do extra work for nothing then it is fair enough I pay for it if they cannot claim it back from LR, and I have offered to do this.

I'd rather pay for the peace of mind than not have it checked. I have a good relationship with my dealer and trust them to do the right thing by me as they have in the past. With only 2000km on the clock I think this is a perfect opportunity to reduce the risk of a potential catastrophic failure in the future.

I will keep digging this week and may find more information which may change my approach, but this is where things stand for now.

Cheers,
Jon

[cuppabillytea]

One of the assembly workers chews bubblegum?

[davisshannon]

My January 2016 delivered 90 also has the mysterious blue liquid/oil/whatever coming from that drain hole as well. I wipe it off every few days and find it back not too long after.

[davisshannon]

Jon3950, what happened to your clutch so early? It would be good if the dealer can tell you what the blue stuff is when they do the work, hopefully it can solve the mystery.

[jon3950]

Jon3950, what happened to your clutch so early? It would be good if the dealer can tell you what the blue stuff is when they do the work, hopefully it can solve the mystery.

Diagnosis is the diaphragm spring on the pressure plate is stuffed, but we won't know for certain until it comes out. I've started getting a very heavy clutch pedal when it gets hot.

I'll see what I can find out about the blue stuff.

Cheers,
Jon

[Pickles2]

Not quite sure what you're getting at Graeme, but I'll try and answer your question. I and several others have had some mysterious blue stuff leaking out of the drain hole in the transfer case but it doesn't look like grease to me.

The lubricant specified by LR is actually an anti-sieze not a grease and is grey not blue. Unless they are lubricating it with something else now I wouldn't expect to see an anti-sieze paste leaking out the drain hole the way this blue stuff is.

I've been looking into this and cannot get any definitive answer from my sources as to whether or not the late builds were lubricated. The only way to be certain is to check the shaft which requires separating the transfer case from the gearbox.

After discussing it with the dealer I have decided, for my own peace of mind, to take the opportunity while the transmission is out to check the shaft as there won't be any substantial extra cost to do it. If a problem is found then clearly it should be a warranty claim, if there is no problem and I have asked them to do extra work for nothing then it is fair enough I pay for it if they cannot claim it back from LR, and I have offered to do this.

I'd rather pay for the peace of mind than not have it checked. I have a good relationship with my dealer and trust them to do the right thing by me as they have in the past. With only 2000km on the clock I think this is a perfect opportunity to reduce the risk of a potential catastrophic failure in the future.

I will keep digging this week and may find more information which may change my approach, but this is where things stand for now.

Cheers,
Jon
Jon, Thank you for an excellent comprehensive post. I can tell you from experience, that your "preventative" maintenance will certainly be more "comfortable" than the trauma that Wifey & I experienced.
I'm looking forward to hearing what happened upon the "examination" of your "parts".
Thanks, Pickles.

[jc109]

Not to hijack the thread, but
Does anyone in know who rebuilds transfer boxes here in Perth. Id like to have the hardened bush machined in, all bearings done and the Ashcrofts cross pin put in, all seals done etc etc AND new clutch, thrust bearing put in (mine sounds like helicopter) AND of course while its apart do the adapter coupling replaced again, but with Ashcrofts.

It never ceases to fascinate me how at 77000km I need to do this. The transfer case is leaking like a sieve .

Cheers
Mal

Try Darren at Aztech 4x4 (DazzaTD5 on here). Top bloke. I'm sure he'll be able to help you one way or another.

[DazzaTD5]

The "last batch" of very late Defender TDCi (puma) models that have come to me seem to have that leaky blue from the adapter housing.

Yes there is a service bulletin advising technicians to lube the spline on assembly.

I'm thinking the CV boot is a great idea, two big zip ties can be used on each end of the boot to hold it all there. Does it need a grease nipple? maybe, I spose that would be good but would also entail machining/milling a hole in the housing somewhere, maybe on the bottom, then every 50,000km add some grease, while not wanting to overfill it.

Yes the Ashcroft solution like a lot of Ashcroft stuff is always very well thought out and a long term solution.


The wear...
This actually isnt rocket science, I have mentioned this somewhere else in regards to the axle and drive flange "issue" All splines suffer fretting, the fretted material then oxidizes, the oxides are harder than the parent metal and then grind away at the spline more. The purpose of the grease (or oil) is to prevent oxygen from coming into contact with the fretted material. So the important characteristic of the grease is for it to stay in place or to bathe in oil such as with the Ashcroft solution.

The other factor is simply the owner..... while plenty complain about the drive line clunk clunk, some will do the axles/drive flange, some will go further and do a centre diff rebuild, and some would go further and do the splined shaft. A lot seem to leave it until its out of warranty, which by then it will be well and truly worn.

I'm prolly going to do the CV boot and centre diff rebuild as a one job thing and give customers the option to go the Ashcroft solution. But of course the addition of a CV boot is only going to be useful on a spline in good condition or new.

Regards
Daz

[Simon]

Sorry, bit of a basic question.

Re getting dealer to inspect during a service where they are pulling most stuff out anyway.

Are there particular services in the first 3 years suited to making that request.

I've got a 110 MY13, 53000km, no apparent issues so far (no clunkier than it was new, or perhaps I'm more used to it....) but would prefer to be sure.

Cheers

Simon

[cuppabillytea]

Yes and I'm thinking I've found out about all this too late so. I'll wait a little while longer and do a full Ashcroft fit out. I have to say though, I gave the drive train a damn good thrashing on the Weekend and came through unscathed. She has 43 thousand on her now and still going strong.

[mickygee]

The "last batch" of very late Defender TDCi (puma) models that have come to me seem to have that leaky blue from the adapter housing.

Yes there is a service bulletin advising technicians to lube the spline on assembly.

I'm thinking the CV boot is a great idea, two big zip ties can be used on each end of the boot to hold it all there. Does it need a grease nipple? maybe, I spose that would be good but would also entail machining/milling a hole in the housing somewhere, maybe on the bottom, then every 50,000km add some grease, while not wanting to overfill it.

Yes the Ashcroft solution like a lot of Ashcroft stuff is always very well thought out and a long term solution.


The wear...
This actually isnt rocket science, I have mentioned this somewhere else in regards to the axle and drive flange "issue" All splines suffer fretting, the fretted material then oxidizes, the oxides are harder than the parent metal and then grind away at the spline more. The purpose of the grease (or oil) is to prevent oxygen from coming into contact with the fretted material. So the important characteristic of the grease is for it to stay in place or to bathe in oil such as with the Ashcroft solution.

The other factor is simply the owner..... while plenty complain about the drive line clunk clunk, some will do the axles/drive flange, some will go further and do a centre diff rebuild, and some would go further and do the splined shaft. A lot seem to leave it until its out of warranty, which by then it will be well and truly worn.

I'm prolly going to do the CV boot and centre diff rebuild as a one job thing and give customers the option to go the Ashcroft solution. But of course the addition of a CV boot is only going to be useful on a spline in good condition or new.

Regards
Daz
hi Daz, just to clarify, if the transfer case is leaking the blue oil does this mean the output shaft has been lubricated at installation but is losing the lubrication and will eventually run dry?

[DazzaTD5]

hi Daz, just to clarify, if the transfer case is leaking the blue oil does this mean the output shaft has been lubricated at installation but is losing the lubrication and will eventually run dry?

Yes but just remember this isnt part of the transfer case, its an adapter housing and adapter shaft between the Ford gearbox and the Land Rover transfer case.

And yes eventually one would assume if its leaking out the bottom it will one day run dry, but way better than the dry spline of earlier.

Regards
Daz

[rgty_kmj]

As others have had problems with the MT82 adaptor shaft I decided to get mine done before heading down to the South Island for a month. My 110 was built in March 2012 and has about 43 000 km on the clock. Pictures attached showing some wear but I suspect it would have lasted quite a bit longer. Didn't look like any grease put on at the factory. Anyway one less thing to worry about.

Kerry

[POD]

I have a mate's 110 in my shed at present, overhauling his transfer case including bushing the intermediate shaft bore. We are currently waiting on a new intermediate shaft as well as the adapter shaft upgrade kit from Ashcrofts, as his looked much like the one above so we decided it best to replace. Done about 170,000km. As mentioned earlier, the one in my 130 has done 220,000km and looked considerably less worn, lucky I guess. Will replace it next year prior to planned CSR trip.

[1nando]

I have a mate's 110 in my shed at present, overhauling his transfer case including bushing the intermediate shaft bore. We are currently waiting on a new intermediate shaft as well as the adapter shaft upgrade kit from Ashcrofts, as his looked much like the one above so we decided it best to replace. Done about 170,000km. As mentioned earlier, the one in my 130 has done 220,000km and looked considerably less worn, lucky I guess. Will replace it next year prior to planned CSR trip.

Great to see a puma doing over 200k, maintenance is key

[DieselDan]

I've noticed my MY14 puma getting noticeably more 'clonky', so I'm planning on having a look at the drive flanges, but whilst I was underneath it this arvo sorting out some extra wiring, I noticed this.
Looks like red rust dust blowing out of a hole at the bottom of the adapter housing. Never seen it before. The splines fretting? How worried should I start getting ? :D



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[Landi]

They definitely mention this over on Defender2 as a sure sign of adaptor shaft wear

[alien]

I've noticed my MY14 puma getting noticeably more 'clonky', so I'm planning on having a look at the drive flanges, but whilst I was underneath it this arvo sorting out some extra wiring, I noticed this.
Looks like red rust dust blowing out of a hole at the bottom of the adapter housing. Never seen it before. The splines fretting? How worried should I start getting ? :D



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With some help I had my transfer box off Saturday and found no grease had ever been fitted to the addaptor shaft.
(MY12 with 125,000)
There was red dust as per your picture inside the extension housing.
Furtunatly mine had minimal wear so lubed it up and refitted it, others have not been as lucky.
I have found signs my transfer box has been removed previously so don't know if the addaptor shafts have been changed but with no grease I doubt it.
There is few reports of complete failures of the splines so I wouldn't think twice about getting it looked at.

[Pickles2]

With some help I had my transfer box off Saturday and found no grease had ever been fitted to the addaptor shaft.
(MY12 with 125,000)
There was red dust as per your picture inside the extension housing.
Furtunatly mine had minimal wear so lubed it up and refitted it, others have not been as lucky.
I have found signs my transfer box has been removed previously so don't know if the addaptor shafts have been changed but with no grease I doubt it.
There is few reports of complete failures of the splines so I wouldn't think twice about getting it looked at.
Speaking from "experience" unfortunately, but that would be very good advice.
Pickles.

[DieselDan]

Thanks Kyle and Pickles.

Pickles when you had yours let go, which dealership did it go to? The one beginning with U or M?

I'm planning a big cross country trip later this year and the puma is coming up for its second service so will see if I can get them to have a look at it in the interests of not having to expensively recover me from the middle of nowhere :D

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[rar110]

It must be a Land Rover thing. My 2008 vogue had no grease on the transmission output shaft. The result was years of fretting corrosion wore away the output and receiving spline until it failed. Rust dust was confined to a cavity between the transmission and transfer box.

I would push very hard for them to inspect and lubricate the spline.

[Pickles2]

Thanks Kyle and Pickles.

Pickles when you had yours let go, which dealership did it go to? The one beginning with U or M?

I'm planning a big cross country trip later this year and the puma is coming up for its second service so will see if I can get them to have a look at it in the interests of not having to expensively recover me from the middle of nowhere :D

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It went to ULR, and they did a great job.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

It went to ULR, and they did a great job.
Pickles.

Hey Pickles what did they do? Lube, or replace?

[Pickles2]

Hey Pickles what did they do? Lube, or replace?
Well mine failed, had to be towed in, they replaced the shaft, drive flange, O rings, seals etc.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

Well mine failed, had to be towed in, they replaced the shaft, drive flange, O rings, seals etc.
Pickles.

Did you have the option to use an Ashcroft shaft? Or decided to go with LR replacement?

[Loubrey]

Something to remember is the Ashcroft kit IS a genuine Land Rover part which they modify with no loss of strength or performance. They purely machine the shaft smooth further back to receive an oil seal, burn two "grooves" to let geabox oil into the female/ female joint and the cup it all with their bespoke machined aluminium cup. Southern Land Rover in Perth fitted mine (Ashcroft kit) for free during a service after warranty has run out as its a known issue.

The problem with those "dry" connectors seem to be a common issue for vehicles developed under the direction and quality control of Ford (2006 - 2008)...

Cheers,

Lou

[Pickles2]

Did you have the option to use an Ashcroft shaft? Or decided to go with LR replacement?
Well I guess I could've used the Ashcroft item, but there was really no time, it was towed to ULR after it failed, so to order & wait for it to arrive, wouldn't have been practical.
Anyway, it's all good now, I would think that there shouldn't be another failure in this area.
Pickles.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Something to remember is the Ashcroft kit IS a genuine Land Rover part which they modify with no loss of strength or performance. They purely machine the shaft smooth further back to receive an oil seal, burn two "grooves" to let geabox oil into the female/ female joint and the cup it all with their bespoke machined aluminium cup. Southern Land Rover in Perth fitted mine (Ashcroft kit) for free during a service after warranty has run out as its a known issue.

The problem with those "dry" connectors seem to be a common issue for vehicles developed under the direction and quality control of Ford (2006 - 2008)...

Cheers,

LouDon't get me wrong, but wouldn't removing two splines from the coupling result in a loss of strength?

This loss of strength, may not be significant and may not alter the durability of the interface, particularly with the addition of lubrication but it has to be a loss of strength because the result is a portion of the load usually applied to the now missing splines is then shared amongst the remaining 36 splines. (i.e. the resulting interface is 94.7% as strong as the original when comparing maximum strength.)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/04/127.jpg

[LR V8]

Relative to a new adapter, then there would be a slight reduction. But compared to what happens to a stock item - the rust and fretting - I would say the strength is a relative improvement (over time) *

* in reality only time will tell - they are still new.

Cheers.

[jimr1]

I like the Ashcroft's design , Time will tell if taking out two splines weakens them . What we do know is they will and fail when left dry . Even the Ashcroft oil seal you have to be replaced at sometime in the future . This not a criticism of there design , just a relevant point . I do like the rubber boot , but like every thing that will have to be replaced eventually . I suppose the good thing is we are learning about different ways to deal with a bad deign . That's thanks to this site !!..Jim

[DieselDan]

I would push very hard for them to inspect and lubricate the spline.

Booked in to the dealer for 2nd service, have given them a list of things to look at, including the adapter shaft, so I'll see what they say.

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[Pickles2]

Booked in to the dealer for 2nd service, have given them a list of things to look at, including the adapter shaft, so I'll see what they say.

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Which Dealer?
Pickles.

[YOLO110]

Well I guess I could've used the Ashcroft item, but there was really no time, it was towed to ULR after it failed, so to order & wait for it to arrive, wouldn't have been practical.
Anyway, it's all good now, I would think that there shouldn't be another failure in this area.
Pickles.

Do you know, or did you ask them to lubricate the replacement shaft before the fitted it?

[Pickles2]

Do you know, or did you ask them to lubricate the replacement shaft before the fitted it?
G'Day Pete, They knew all about it, the W/S Manager has been doing Defenders for yonks, he even told me about the different sorts of grease & why they use it!!
Martin.

[DieselDan]

Which Dealer?
Pickles.

ULR!
So based on your experience, I'm hoping all goes well.

[Avion8]

G'Day Pete, They knew all about it, the W/S Manager has been doing Defenders for yonks, he even told me about the different sorts of grease & why they use it!!
Martin.

Hi Pickles,

What sort of grease did your W/S Manager use in the end. Was it the blue grease that most newish Defenders have leaking out, or was it the Weicon grease mentioned in the service bulletin?

Nigel

[Pickles2]

G'Day Nigel, I have no idea, but He gave me a very long detailed explanation of different greases & their uses!...I'm not a very "technical" person, so I just rely on them to use the right stuff.
Your Workshop manager would probably know.
Pickles.

[ProjectDirector]

I was booking my final service today at dealer and was chatting with mechanic about the output shaft and he did say they use copper grease to lubricate it.

Of course I couldn't convince him to do that as there is no symptoms that will warrant taking off the transfer case. I guess I just keep running it

[YOLO110]

G'Day Pete, They knew all about it, the W/S Manager has been doing Defenders for yonks, he even told me about the different sorts of grease & why they use it!!
Martin.

Sounds good mate.

Did he tell you if the U/S shaft was dry... or greased?

If it was dry, I would be really interested if you could get 'his opinion' regarding owners 'should another Puma owner friend come in to have the grease added to avoid him having the same issue'... ;)

Because, I actually don't know what to do! :confused:

[Pickles2]

Pete, trying to get the W.S. Manager is virtually impossible, He is a great bloke, but He's always "doing something", so He's hard to reach by phone.
I'm pretty certain mine was dry. However I was given an explanation of the two parts, and was told that they are of course made to manufacturers specifications/measurements, & if these were always EXACTLY the same, there would be no issue.
However, the problem arises when different "batches" have slightly different tolerances, so that the join is not "exactly" as it should be with just a very slight amount of variance/play,.....which is when the problem can occur.
I was pretty shocked when Gracie lost all drive let me tell you,...and the day before, we were about 300ks further from home, so things could've been much worse.
With your journey in mind, I'd DEFINITELY be getting yours checked, in fact I'd recommend anyone to do so,...it can't be that much of a job & I can assure anyone, that the nominal cost involved would be FAR preferable to a breakdown on the side of the road, miles from home, in 30C heat.
Martin.

[MrLandy]

Pete, trying to get the W.S. Manager is virtually impossible, He is a great bloke, but He's always "doing something", so He's hard to reach by phone.
I'm pretty certain mine was dry. However I was given an explanation of the two parts, and was told that they are of course made to manufacturers specifications/measurements, & if these were always EXACTLY the same, there would be no issue.
However, the problem arises when different "batches" have slightly different tolerances, so that the join is not "exactly" as it should be with just a very slight amount of variance/play,.....which is when the problem can occur.
I was pretty shocked when Gracie lost all drive let me tell you,...and the day before, we were about 300ks further from home, so things could've been much worse.
With your journey in mind, I'd DEFINITELY be getting yours checked, in fact I'd recommend anyone to do so,...it can't be that much of a job & I can assure anyone, that the nominal cost involved would be FAR preferable to a breakdown on the side of the road, miles from home, in 30C heat.
Martin.

Cheers Pickles, great advice. Glad it worked out well for you at ULR too, I've had excellent service from them also.

[DazzaTD5]

just some added info (that has been covered)...

All splines will suffer fretting, the material that breaks away then oxidises (rusts) the oxides are then harder than the parent metal (the splines) and further cause wear.

What makes fretting worse is:
*Rotational torque.
*Vibration.
*lack of lubrication.
*A mis-match in the spline angle in relation to the male/female parts.
*Quality of material used.

*The purpose of lubrication is to prevent oxygen from coming in contact with the fretted material. So either bathe the splines in oil such as the Ashcroft Transmission fix or use a grease that will stay in place.

*In regards to some batches of the shafts being made better than other...
Either ALL of them are being made with mis-matched splines or they arent. You can bet they are manufactured in mass on a CNC machine, so all will be within so many thousands of a mm, they arent made by grandpa in the back shed.

Even if the smallest quantity are being made, its the machine setup that takes the time and money, once setup, you could do 10 or a 1000, all will be punched out the same.

As any land Rover repairer will tell you, I've yet to see an adapter shaft on a Defender TDCi that wasnt worn.

The use of an adapter shaft between gearbox and transfer case is nothing new on Land Rovers. The ZF auto in the early Discovery has one, they have not been prone to wearing out. The adapter shaft on a Disco is bolted to the end of the auto mainshaft, maybe that was enough to reduce vibration? and was likely assembled with lube, or the Defender MT82 adapter shaft is poor quality and a made with a mis-matched spline.

Regards
Daz

[manofaus]

Don't run away with the idea that cnc makes parts exactly the same. Of course they will be within spec but when machining parts on cnc you start at lowest spec and as tool wears your reach top spec and either adjust, sharpen or replace tooling. But don't forget you have two parts mating. So worst and best case scenario is you get get one on top spec and one on lower spec. So really tight or really loose. It would be up to the assembler to match your parts as measured. Don't think they do that with tractors.

[DazzaTD5]

Don't run away with the idea that cnc makes parts exactly the same. Of course they will be within spec but when machining parts on cnc you start at lowest spec and as tool wears your reach top spec and either adjust, sharpen or replace tooling. But don't forget you have two parts mating. So worst and best case scenario is you get get one on top spec and one on lower spec. So really tight or really loose. It would be up to the assembler to match your parts as measured. Don't think they do that with tractors.

Tractors (like a lot of industrial machinery) by comparision are made to good high standard.

If we look at very low production items such as Land Rovers, and look back to "times of old" when Land Rover had no money (while Ford improved the situation, Ford also had no money), the adapter shaft as used in the Discovery between the transfer case and ZF auto, we didnt see any excessive wear.

And considering the tooling for the Defender TDCi (adapter shaft) is only relatively new, we can only assume that its not the tooling tolerances, but the quality of material used and / or a mis-match in the spline angle. Again as mentioned, ask any Land Rover repairer if they have pulled a gearbox and found a adapter shaft that isnt worn.

If it was tooling variation, we would see variation like the centre diff issue on the transfer case (as in some are tight, some are loose and have lots of freeplay "clunk clunk"), instead of using a "selective thrust" as used in times of old (to take up variation in machining), every transfer case I've stripped from a Defender TDCi had the same size thrust on both sides of the centre diff, where as the transfer cases of old had different sizes... As in the selective thrust is what took up variation in machining.

While some of the "Ford" things are awesome on a Defender TDCi (puma), 6 speed box, ford engine, dash, light clutch, ford way of mounting gearbox to engine (as in they dont hang cooling brackets off the bellhousing bolts). Other things have suffered the ford way.... transfer case preload (one size fits all), the adapter shaft and axles / drive flanges (as in poor quality of material used).

Anyway.... its all just something we kick around the workshop over beers and nothing more, Land Rovers have issues... Specialist Land Rover repairers find solutions.... :p:p

Regards
Daz

[MrLandy]

I've just noticed this in my 2014 Defender owners handbook. Right there in the centre of the page. So I can assume my adapter shaft is lubricated? "Gearbox extension shaft to transfer case - Weicon Anti Seize Standard Grade or equivalent".

[51mondays]

Pete, trying to get the W.S. Manager is virtually impossible, He is a great bloke, but He's always "doing something", so He's hard to reach by phone.
I'm pretty certain mine was dry. However I was given an explanation of the two parts, and was told that they are of course made to manufacturers specifications/measurements, & if these were always EXACTLY the same, there would be no issue.
However, the problem arises when different "batches" have slightly different tolerances, so that the join is not "exactly" as it should be with just a very slight amount of variance/play,.....which is when the problem can occur.
I was pretty shocked when Gracie lost all drive let me tell you,...and the day before, we were about 300ks further from home, so things could've been much worse.
With your journey in mind, I'd DEFINITELY be getting yours checked, in fact I'd recommend anyone to do so,...it can't be that much of a job & I can assure anyone, that the nominal cost involved would be FAR preferable to a breakdown on the side of the road, miles from home, in 30C heat.
Martin.

mines in for first 1yr (18,500km) service Thursday...at Lance Dixon. I'll see what I can find out. I spoke to a service bloke on the phone who said that there was no know issues that they'd been told to check for on my vehicle MY15 110 defender. Well...I guess i'll ask them again when I drop it off. As you suggest pickles maybe just paying for it to be checked is good insurance. the mystery of "is there or isn't there grease in the thing?"!

[alien]

I've just noticed this in my 2014 Defender owners handbook. Right there in the centre of the page. So I can assume my adapter shaft is lubricated? "Gearbox extension shaft to transfer case - Weicon Anti Seize Standard Grade or equivalent".
My hand book says the same thing yet the splines where bone dry.
The assumption is - it should be lubricated, most appear not to be.

One to ponder...
If you get a dealer to check it within the warranty period and its dry should you pay?
The book says it should be greased.

[MrLandy]

My hand book says the same thing yet the splines where bone dry.
The assumption is - it should be lubricated, most spear not to be.

One to ponder...
If you get a dealer to check it within the warranty period and its dry should you pay?
The book says it should be greased.

Thanks Kyle, hmmm bugger. Yes absolutely. Did you claim under warranty?
Obviously bit tricky if dealer won't let you in the workshop to see it come out.
Anyone else in same situation?

[alien]

Thanks Kyle, hmmm bugger. Yes absolutely. Did you claim under warranty?
Obviously bit tricky if dealer won't let you in the workshop to see it come out.
Anyone else in same situation?
We picked ours up just as it came out of the 3 year factory warranty.
The reasoning was I could set it up the way I wanted to figuring any little issues had been sorted by the first owner.
All I'm doing now is going through the known failure/weak points and addressing them as I see fit.

[DazzaTD5]

I would make the assumption that if you dont see any tell tale signs of a bluey type grease coming from the bottom of the adapter housing, your adapter shaft was assembled with no grease.

I've only seen very last models that were leaking grease.

Regards
Daz

[MrLandy]

I would make the assumption that if you dont see any tell tale signs of a bluey type grease coming from the bottom of the adapter housing, your adapter shaft was assembled with no grease.

I've only seen very last models that were leaking grease.

Regards
Daz

Thanks Daz, yeah no blue grease, mid 14 model 50,000 km. ...But I have noticed oil weeping between gbox and tcase, also from clutch drain hole, so i have it booked in for warranty check in a couple of weeks. Will talk with them re adapter shaft grease too, as I reckon box will need to come out by looks of it. Hmm.

[scarry]

There is also a hole in the bottom of the spacer(i think that is what it is called) between the gearbox and the transfer case.

If there is orange dust around it,good chance the shaft has no grease.:mad:

[loneranger]

When we were having troubles with the backlash on my 110 the dealer said they would grease it at the first service. I get very little backlash since then and everything feels a lot smoother. The 90 on the other hand didn't appear to get grease at its first service and I'm waiting for something to break so they can fix it. ;)

[DazzaTD5]

Thanks Daz, yeah no blue grease, mid 14 model 50,000 km. ...But I have noticed oil weeping between gbox and tcase, also from clutch drain hole, so i have it booked in for warranty check in a couple of weeks. Will talk with them re adapter shaft grease too, as I reckon box will need to come out by looks of it. Hmm.

Oil leaking from both ends of the gearbox tells me its been over filled. As the filler plug is not a level plug, I've no doubt some might over fill the gearbox.

Mid 14 wont have the adapter shaft lubed, when I say very last model Defenders seem to be greased, I'm talking in the last few months of production, the models that have the traction control off button on the left side of dash.

Regards
Daz

[MrLandy]

Oil leaking from both ends of the gearbox tells me its been over filled. As the filler plug is not a level plug, I've no doubt some might over fill the gearbox.

Mid 14 wont have the adapter shaft lubed, when I say very last model Defenders seem to be greased, I'm talking in the last few months of production, the models that have the traction control off button on the left side of dash.

Regards
Daz

Cheers Daz, yeah possibly, although gearbox hasn't been touched since new. Looks bit more like engine oil from drain hole, dark oil. Hmm hopefully not rear main. Will see what they say.

[cuppabillytea]

I've beed flogging mine to see what breaks first. Warranty is up in December.
At the moment all seems tight and yare. ( Sorry Will.)

[YOLO110]

I don't think you will break it mate...

[AndyG]

Cheers Daz, yeah possibly, although gearbox hasn't been touched since new. Looks bit more like engine oil from drain hole, dark oil. Hmm hopefully not rear main. Will see what they say.

My rear main went at 12,000 and they replaced the adaptor shaft while in there

[DieselDan]

Got mine back from the dealer last week.
New adapter shaft fitted (greased!) and new rear half shafts and drive flanges too.
All done without quibble, so happy with the service!

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[YOLO110]

Good stuff!

Had your shaft failed? Interesting they replaced the other stuff too... was there a reason for that?

What was the dealer please?

[DieselDan]

Good stuff!

Had your shaft failed? Interesting they replaced the other stuff too... was there a reason for that?

What was the dealer please?

ULR.
Shaft hadn't failed (yet) but there was lots of red dust from the drain hole. There's a pic a few pages back.
I was assured the new one had been greased!

I pointed out to them the rapidly deteriorating clunks from the rear but was still pleasantly surprised when they said 'yep you're right, so we've replaced them too!'

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

ULR.
Shaft hadn't failed (yet) but there was lots of red dust from the drain hole. There's a pic a few pages back.
I was assured the new one had been greased!

I pointed out to them the rapidly deteriorating clunks from the rear but was still pleasantly surprised when they said 'yep you're right, so we've replaced them too!'

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app
+1 for ULR. They have an absolutely BRILLIANT workshop manager.
But "half shafts & drive flanges",...that's a new one on me, & raises a whole new range of "horribilities"?.
Who's had problems in these areas, because Gracie still has, despite the input shaft being done, quite a fair level of backlash/slack/clunking, which I thought, from reading about various driving experiences of far more experienced Defender owners than me, was "Normal", but,.....IS IT?
Pickles.

[1nando]

+1 for ULR. They have an absolutely BRILLIANT workshop manager.
But "half shafts & drive flanges",...that's a new one on me, & raises a whole new range of "horribilities"?.
Who's had problems in these areas, because Gracie still has, despite the input shaft being done, quite a fair level of backlash/slack/clunking, which I thought, from reading about various driving experiences of far more experienced Defender owners than me, was "Normal", but,.....IS IT?
Pickles.

Pickles...ill give my opinion.

I suggest you invest in HD flanges all round. If you can afford to do your rear axels at the same time it is recommended.

This is in my opinion a must upgrade on every puma. My opinion as a result of my experience

[DieselDan]

+1 for ULR. They have an absolutely BRILLIANT workshop manager.
But "half shafts & drive flanges",...that's a new one on me, & raises a whole new range of "horribilities"?.
Who's had problems in these areas, because Gracie still has, despite the input shaft being done, quite a fair level of backlash/slack/clunking, which I thought, from reading about various driving experiences of far more experienced Defender owners than me, was "Normal", but,.....IS IT?
Pickles.

Hi Pickles,

Yep 1nando has a good suggestion, now that the rear shafts on mine are new again, the HD flanges is something that I'll be looking at.

There's lots of threads/posts about the flanges, if they're not too bad then they can be greased which will make them last, otherwise replacing with the HD flange seems to be the way to go.
I think dazzaTd5 has posted about the flanges before, it'd be worth searching for some of his posts.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[Avion8]

+1 for ULR. They have an absolutely BRILLIANT workshop manager.
But "half shafts & drive flanges",...that's a new one on me, & raises a whole new range of "horribilities"?.
Who's had problems in these areas, because Gracie still has, despite the input shaft being done, quite a fair level of backlash/slack/clunking, which I thought, from reading about various driving experiences of far more experienced Defender owners than me, was "Normal", but,.....IS IT?
Pickles.

Definitely get the HD flanges & new rear half shafts, it made a huge difference on my TD5, but sadly won't work on the Heritage as the HD flanges are a bright goldish colour - can't hide them under the boost wheels! I will just change the standard flanges on an as yet to be determined basis. I keep a set in my spares kit for the Series 1 as they have similar issues.

[tact]

Pickles...ill give my opinion.

I suggest you invest in HD flanges all round. If you can afford to do your rear axels at the same time it is recommended.

This is in my opinion a must upgrade on every puma. My opinion as a result of my experience

Definitely do the HD flanges. That alone took an amazing amount of clunks and slop out of my Defender's driveline. Mine was still only at ound 10,000km IIRC... And so didn't change the half shafts.

[YOLO110]

ULR.
Shaft hadn't failed (yet) but there was lots of red dust from the drain hole. There's a pic a few pages back.
I was assured the new one had been greased!

I pointed out to them the rapidly deteriorating clunks from the rear but was still pleasantly surprised when they said 'yep you're right, so we've replaced them too!'

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

Great stuff from ULR!

Time to visit Melbourne then! :D

[MrLandy]

Sound familiar? From Explore Oz 2004. We are not alone...

"Hi...Just wondering how many people are having problems with the new gearboxes in the 78/79 series cruisers..I had mine strip the intermediate shaft @ 110000 km-(Was stuck in the bush and had to be towed out by a commodore)I'm no expert but the intermediate shaft has only about 20mm of spline connecting the gearbox with the transfer case...looks damm flimsy to me..the only warning I had was some backlash in the driveline...The thing that annoyed me was that I rang the toyota helpline and a dealership and they said they had never heard of problems with these gearboxes-but when I contacted a non genuine dealer here in WA he has the intermediate shafts on the shelf and they were selling like hot cakes.......The only two other people I know with 78 series cruisers had gearboxes replaced a 60 and 70 K...100% failure rate out of the three I know of seems poor..I've Emailed Toyota twice and no response..."

At least it sounds like ULR and others are doing the right thing re Defenders.

[scarry]

Sound familiar? From Explore Oz 2004. We are not alone...

"Hi...Just wondering how many people are having problems with the new gearboxes in the 78/79 series cruisers..I had mine strip the intermediate shaft @ 110000 km-(Was stuck in the bush and had to be towed out by a commodore)I'm no expert but the intermediate shaft has only about 20mm of spline connecting the gearbox with the transfer case...looks damm flimsy to me..the only warning I had was some backlash in the driveline...The thing that annoyed me was that I rang the toyota helpline and a dealership and they said they had never heard of problems with these gearboxes-but when I contacted a non genuine dealer here in WA he has the intermediate shafts on the shelf and they were selling like hot cakes.......The only two other people I know with 78 series cruisers had gearboxes replaced a 60 and 70 K...100% failure rate out of the three I know of seems poor..I've Emailed Toyota twice and no response..."

At least it sounds like ULR and others are doing the right thing re Defenders.

Ummm,just sounds like Toyota, when we did a diff in one of the work vans.The dealer was like'well its just out of warranty,we don't want to know,and i have never heard of a diff failure ever'.And that van was serviced at the same dealer,since new.

A quick look on a couple of forums,and there are heaps of issues with the diffs in those particular vans,noisy,failures,etc.:mad:

Agree,LR generally do the right thing,my experience with 5 new LR's over the years with warranty issues has been better than excellent,even though the vehicles have been serviced elsewhere.:)

[DazzaTD5]

but sadly won't work on the Heritage as the HD flanges are a bright goldish colour - can't hide them under the boost wheels!.

If you are interested, I can take a HTE (brand name) drive flange and screw on cover to the place that does all my powder coating and ask if its possible to powder coat them and the durability of doing it.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

Yes I'm sure I've covered the clunk clunk Defender TDCi issue a number of times in posts

If I havent already spammed this....
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0gnHqbWdUwpq2Qivaj_wbg

two short vids of axle / drive flange free play at 10K, 30K I think from memory

So to summarise, clunk clunk in drive line on Defender TDCi...
*Axle / drive flange free play.
*Centre diff preload poor or excessive wear.
*Adapter shaft wear.
*Clutch failing, mostly 2.4lt, but seems 2.2lt are starting to suffer.
*Poor driving technique.

Regards
Daz

[PAT303]

Sound familiar? From Explore Oz 2004. We are not alone...

"Hi...Just wondering how many people are having problems with the new gearboxes in the 78/79 series cruisers..I had mine strip the intermediate shaft @ 110000 km-(Was stuck in the bush and had to be towed out by a commodore)I'm no expert but the intermediate shaft has only about 20mm of spline connecting the gearbox with the transfer case...looks damm flimsy to me..the only warning I had was some backlash in the driveline...The thing that annoyed me was that I rang the toyota helpline and a dealership and they said they had never heard of problems with these gearboxes-but when I contacted a non genuine dealer here in WA he has the intermediate shafts on the shelf and they were selling like hot cakes.......The only two other people I know with 78 series cruisers had gearboxes replaced a 60 and 70 K...100% failure rate out of the three I know of seems poor..I've Emailed Toyota twice and no response..."

At least it sounds like ULR and others are doing the right thing re Defenders.

Toybota's have had this same problem since the 60 series,I had it happen twice on my LC's,the rear drive shaft is also a problem,it starts to vibrate back up through the gearbox and Mr T's fix is to simply pack the spline with grease to dampen it. Pat

[MrLandy]

Toybota's have had this same problem since the 60 series,I had it happen twice on my LC's,the rear drive shaft is also a problem,it starts to vibrate back up through the gearbox and Mr T's fix is to simply pack the spline with grease to dampen it. Pat

Cheers Pat.

[Avion8]

If you are interested, I can take a HTE (brand name) drive flange and screw on cover to the place that does all my powder coating and ask if its possible to powder coat them and the durability of doing it.

Regards
Daz

Hi Daz,

Thanks for this & will definitely consider when out of warranty. Can you magic powder coat my adaptor shaft with longevity stuff, made of unbrakium?

Nigel

[tact]

Definitely get the HD flanges & new rear half shafts, it made a huge difference on my TD5, but sadly won't work on the Heritage as the HD flanges are a bright goldish colour - can't hide them under the boost wheels! I will just change the standard flanges on an as yet to be determined basis. I keep a set in my spares kit for the Series 1 as they have similar issues.

Ashcroft HD flanges fit behind Boost Alloys.

[DazzaTD5]

Ashcroft HD flanges fit behind Boost Alloys.

Nigel (Avion8) means the wolf type steel wheels fitted on his Heritage Defender, his dilemma is purely a cosmetic issue, as in he doesnt want to see the gold coloured finish of the HTE or Ashcroft (brand names) drive flanges.

Regards
Daz

[mike_beecham]

Hi All
Where is Vic is the best place to purchase the HD axels and flanges?

Michael

[Avion8]

Ashcroft HD flanges fit behind Boost Alloys.

Not a good fit behind all Boost alloys:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/304.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Sir%20Raz/P1090261_zpsjlv1il8m.jpg.html)

This is the 110 TD5 with newer Boost alloys (2012) purchased one time ago. You can't fit the centre hub cabs as the nut gets in the way.

The original Boosts have a different cast shape:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/305.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Sir%20Raz/P1090262_zpswm1oqrgk.jpg.html)

These fit a treat. One day I will get the newer tyres transferred across to the original wheels - just one of dozens of todo jobs, & then there are the hundreds of jobs on the honeydo list. Who said retirement was boring!

[loneranger]

Not a good fit behind all Boost alloys:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/304.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Sir%20Raz/P1090261_zpsjlv1il8m.jpg.html)

This is the 110 TD5 with newer Boost alloys (2012) purchased one time ago. You can't fit the centre hub cabs as the nut gets in the way.

The original Boosts have a different cast shape:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/305.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/jodel1050/media/Sir%20Raz/P1090262_zpswm1oqrgk.jpg.html)

These fit a treat. One day I will get the newer tyres transferred across to the original wheels - just one of dozens of todo jobs, & then there are the hundreds of jobs on the honeydo list. Who said retirement was boring!

So if you have boost alloys on 2014 Defender and fit the HTE flanges will the caps fit or not? I'm confused ;)

[spudfan]

Surely there must be some mistake here. This is from Land Rover.

Land Rover Genuine Parts are designed specifically for your vehicle and come with numerous benefits that will ultimately help extend the lifespan of your Land Rover.

These parts have been designed, tested and manufactured according to Land Rover's uncompromising standards to ensure the superior quality and durability of every component.

With each part and component, you can have complete confidence in its fit, quality, durability and function.

Land Rover Genuine Parts, in combination with regular vehicle maintenance, will help protect your Land Rover, providing enhanced safety and performance. Every Land Rover Genuine Part comes with a 12-month warranty.

All Land Rover Genuine Parts can be ordered from our Parts Department. We will always be happy to give you a fully inclusive fitted price if you'd like the added assurance offered by using our Land Rover trained technicians.
All Land Rover Genuine Parts have been designed, manufactured and tested Land Rover's uncompromising standards. Why compromise performance with inferior parts?
Well there you have it, you all seem to be deluded. :Rolling:

[ATH]

I'm sure I read exactly the same on the Defender2 forum just a few minutes ago Spudfan.
Obviously comes as news to you and all other Deafener owners in the UK as well as us in Oz. What a joke.:o
AlanH.

[MrLandy]

Believing ones own spin is a handicap. Land Rover are experts.

[karlz]

So if you have boost alloys on 2014 Defender and fit the HTE flanges will the caps fit or not? I'm confused ;)

Well mines a 2015, and the HD Ashcrofts fit easy.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/249.jpg

[loneranger]

Well mines a 2015, and the HD Ashcrofts fit easy.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/249.jpg

Cheers Karlz,

I need to extract the digit and make a phone call next week to DazzaTD5 for a price and book 2 in. The backlash on the 90 is pretty bad. The 110 has settled but any improvement would be good.

[spudfan]

I'm sure I read exactly the same on the Defender2 forum just a few minutes ago Spudfan.
Obviously comes as news to you and all other Deafener owners in the UK as well as us in Oz. What a joke.:o
AlanH.
Yes it was me that put it there. I don't think that Land Rover have a monopoly on spin. I think that the Defender could have been a truly outstanding vehicle if the engineering department had been given more freedom. It seems the what the accountancy department says goes. If some components could have been developed more or been of a better quality we'd have little to complain about. If all of the faults listed on these pages were rectified by using better quality components and applying more stringent quality control at Solihull, owners would not mind paying a higher price for a truly quality vehicle.

[cuppabillytea]

But what excuse would we have for getting our hands dirty and skinning our knuckles? :angel::wasntme:

[spudfan]

I don't need an exscuse... it seems to be my natural state.:D

[DazzaTD5]

Well mines a 2015, and the HD Ashcrofts fit easy.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/249.jpg

Your wheels are the optional ones, also used on such packs as the xtech models. The HTE or Ashcroft (brand names) all fit, but you cant get the small centre plastic cap on.

The standard Boost wheels will allow fitting of the HTE (brand names) axles/drive flanges, but the rears only wont allow the large plastic cap to fit without modifiying the cap, which is what I do on the rears. The fronts arent a issue as the flange isnt as deep.

The early alloy wheels that Avion8 has mentioned have enough clearance for the plastic cap, but arent a common wheel and I've only seen them on early Discovery 1 and early Defenders, I dont think they are actually called Boost alloys.

Regards
Daz

[Avion8]

The early alloy wheels that Avion8 has mentioned have enough clearance for the plastic cap, but arent a common wheel and I've only seen them on early Discovery 1 and early Defenders, I dont think they are actually called Boost alloys.

Regards
Daz

These were the standard wheels on the MY2000 Defender Xtreme in Australia & I do believe they were referred to as Boosts, but could well be wrong, I often am! I've noticed the same wheels on the few Xtreme's I have seen around. These flanges and HD axles certainly took a lot of slop out of the drivetrain on mine.

[Pickles2]

Your wheels are the optional ones, also used on such packs as the xtech models. The HTE or Ashcroft (brand names) all fit, but you cant get the small centre plastic cap on.

The standard Boost wheels will allow fitting of the HTE (brand names) axles/drive flanges, but the rears only wont allow the large plastic cap to fit without modifiying the cap, which is what I do on the rears. The fronts arent a issue as the flange isnt as deep.

The early alloy wheels that Avion8 has mentioned have enough clearance for the plastic cap, but arent a common wheel and I've only seen them on early Discovery 1 and early Defenders, I dont think they are actually called Boost alloys.

Regards
Daz
Yes Dazza, the are the SVX/Dual Finish alloys that are optional on Pumas, so are you saying there is no problem with these,....front & rear, & that the caps will fit on?
Pickles.

[tact]

These are stock boost alloys as factory fitted to my TDCi DCPU MY2013 - complete with Ashcroft HD drive flanges nicely hidden behind.

[Landant]

New to the forum and have just returned to a Defender after a 300tdi 10 years ago and it rewarded me by loosing all drive 3 weeks in, it is a Puma 130. This is actually my 7th Land Rover (still own two others) and I've never had one not get me home before.

So, from what I have read there is a strong chance that it is the adapter shaft between the MT82 gearbox and the LT230 transfer box. The car is with a mechanic who to be fair is trying to find the cause without pulling the car to bits and I've mentioned this issue to him and he can't find worn splines.

Would I be correct in saying that the splines wear at the gearbox end of the shaft, or is it the coupling the shaft slides into, or a combination of both? Does the transfer box and adapter assembly all need to come out to find that?

I've found my ex army series 3 is satisfying my need for dirt, grease and grazed knuckles so happy for a professional to work on something I will rely on!

Thanks

[alien]

New to the forum and have just returned to a Defender after a 300tdi 10 years ago and it rewarded me by loosing all drive 3 weeks in, it is a Puma 130. This is actually my 7th Land Rover (still own two others) and I've never had one not get me home before.

So, from what I have read there is a strong chance that it is the adapter shaft between the MT82 gearbox and the LT230 transfer box. The car is with a mechanic who to be fair is trying to find the cause without pulling the car to bits and I've mentioned this issue to him and he can't find worn splines.

Would I be correct in saying that the splines wear at the gearbox end of the shaft, or is it the coupling the shaft slides into, or a combination of both? Does the transfer box and adapter assembly all need to come out to find that?

I've found my ex army series 3 is satisfying my need for dirt, grease and grazed knuckles so happy for a professional to work on something I will rely on!

Thanks

The wear happens inside the adaptor itself.
The gearbox splines appear to be holding up OK.
See the pictures on the first post, it shows the parts of concern.
To inspect the shaft the transfer box will have to be removed.
A tell tale sign could be red(rust) dust visable at the breather/drain hole at the bottom of the gearbox to transfer addaptor housing.
There will be no drive from the gearbox into the transfer box if they have failed.

[rangieman]

New to the forum and have just returned to a Defender after a 300tdi 10 years ago and it rewarded me by loosing all drive 3 weeks in, it is a Puma 130. This is actually my 7th Land Rover (still own two others) and I've never had one not get me home before.

So, from what I have read there is a strong chance that it is the adapter shaft between the MT82 gearbox and the LT230 transfer box. The car is with a mechanic who to be fair is trying to find the cause without pulling the car to bits and I've mentioned this issue to him and he can't find worn splines.

Would I be correct in saying that the splines wear at the gearbox end of the shaft, or is it the coupling the shaft slides into, or a combination of both? Does the transfer box and adapter assembly all need to come out to find that?

I've found my ex army series 3 is satisfying my need for dirt, grease and grazed knuckles so happy for a professional to work on something I will rely on!

Thanks
Check to see if it drive`s with cdl engaged as it could be as simple as a drive flange or axle spline;)

[Landant]

Thanks. It is the adaptor shaft, he was looking at the wrong end, didn't realise that the shaft he saw at the transfer box was not something that ran straight from the gear box. Have ordered Ashcroft fix for the issue and some drive flanges just to complete work on things with splines...

Antony

[dancol]

Got my puma booked into Les Richmond in 2 weeks time to install the ashcroft adapter shaft. One less thing to worry about when I'm out.

[raf62]

HHHhas a

[ozrob]

Is this the part that Land Rover failed to install ? A $16 CV boot could eliminate the adapter shaft failure !! I described my grease-nipple addition, only to find a oil leak thru the yoke. This is what I understand Ashcroft has done to lube shaft (did not put any silastic sealer under bolt into g/box) So over Easter the trans case came out again (how I love my Deefer) noticed how much of the grease was been spun out from the shaft. A cv boot from Repco, 25mm x82mm was as close as we could find 80mm would be perfect. Slid boot over end of shaft filled with grease, bashed it in till in place, clamped end of boot with silastic under lip, another shot of grease to nipple.I believe that the grease can now be contained in the boot with no chance of water or dust to get in. Put the lot back together. (see image) Comments please

Tony
Putting a question out there.....
With the passage of time, is there any evidence that just using grease containing in the boot and periodic greasing via a grease gun provides adequate lubrication to all of the splines? I am changing my shaft now and thinking that how does the grease lubricate all of the spines, not just the ones directly where the nipple is mounted, as there are no passages for the grease to go through to all of the splines? Molly grease is not fluid enough to move.

With that thought, using the CV boot option, how would 80/90 gear oil that is contained in the CV boot, sure centrifugal force would make the oil collect in the boot, but when the shaft is stationary, the oil is free to flow back in the splines? The only other way I can see all of the splines being lubricated with grease is to machine a groove on the inside where the grease nipples come through, that way the grease fills up the groove then out of the splines.

[bushmech]

Hi ozrob,I did my mod at 40k, at 115k decided to replace centre diff with Ashcroft as there was too much copper pieces in drain oil ( all the shims had let go). The cv boot had disintegrated due I suspect to exceeding 140kph! However ,there was no evidence of any wear on the shaft . Always gave it a shot of moly grease every 10k service. I had tapped 2 nipples 180 deg apart( to keep balance) close to the end of the yoke that bolts to gearbox. That way the grease applied from any of the 2 nipples goes into the void between the yoke and the shaft and thru spinning, out along the spline. I did not replace cv boot as the greasing seems to do the trick,applied thru whole in the base of the adaptor housing.

[DazzaTD5]

Ashcroft MT82 kit.
The version 3 (red alloy cover) of the Ashcroft kit now doesnt use a modified genuine coupling.
The coupling that I assume they get made (or make) is about twice the hardness of the genuine coupling on the Rockwell scale.
The splines are also a far tighter fit when compared to the genuine and the orings for sealing are larger and a tighter fit.

I think they have gone down the right path with this latest kit.
Keep in mind I'm not Ashcroft Transmissions nor do I have any more knowledge than installing their kits.

[ozrob]

Hi ozrob,I did my mod at 40k, at 115k decided to replace centre diff with Ashcroft as there was too much copper pieces in drain oil ( all the shims had let go). The cv boot had disintegrated due I suspect to exceeding 140kph! However ,there was no evidence of any wear on the shaft . Always gave it a shot of moly grease every 10k service. I had tapped 2 nipples 180 deg apart( to keep balance) close to the end of the yoke that bolts to gearbox. That way the grease applied from any of the 2 nipples goes into the void between the yoke and the shaft and thru spinning, out along the spline. I did not replace cv boot as the greasing seems to do the trick,applied thru whole in the base of the adaptor housing.

Thanks for your reply bushmech, detailing that the grease goes into the void first then out through the splines makes lots of sense, I suppose any excess grease just gets flung out past the OEM type seal into the housing which should be not issues. Do you have any measurements as to where the hole is required to be drilled to allow the grease gun onto the nipples?

[ozrob]

Hi all
My adapter shaft kit has arrived in the post from Britpart, it has occurred to me that no one has actually posted dimensions and locations of where the grease nipples are required to be installed and the hole in the gear box to transfer case housing, so I decided to take some photos with dimensions as to what is required. I tested the drilling location with the old shaft first. The smaller hole in the housing was for when I used a camera to inspect the shaft with the transfer case still in the vehicle, both holes will be sealed with silastic, and being silastic it can easily be removed during a required service. Two grease nipples were installed 180 degrees apart for balancing. When the shaft is fitted to the gearbox and transfer box, the only place for the grease to go is along the splines, I plan to use Molly grease as it is better suited for sliding splines than wheel bearing grease.
154861 154862 154863
I hope this helps to visualize what is required?

[Lagerfan]

So another dry shaft in our MY13 90 for the stats. Not as stripped as I expected, despite all the red dust and clunks, but doing it anyway for the first time at 105k since I have it out for the clutch.

Question though, not sure how to remove the bolt, workshop manual says special tool required (https://jlrequipment.service-solutions.com/en-GB/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?SKU=308-701) but what have others used? Interweb says people make their own tool or use impact gun with it in 6th or reverse which sounds dodge.

[DazzaTD5]

So another dry shaft in our MY13 90 for the stats. Not as stripped as I expected, despite all the red dust and clunks, but doing it anyway for the first time at 105k since I have it out for the clutch.

Question though, not sure how to remove the bolt, workshop manual says special tool required (https://jlrequipment.service-solutions.com/en-GB/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?SKU=308-701) but what have others used? Interweb says people make their own tool or use impact gun with it in 6th or reverse which sounds dodge.

*I've always used a rattle gun but I hold the outer collar.

[spudfan]

2008 2.4 Puma still on original factory fitted shaft. 210,403 kms.
2011 2.4 also still on original shaft at 103,372 kms