OE momentary SPDT switch for puma?

[Toxic_Avenger]

I'm nutting out my winch isolator wiring, looking to run the winch thru a blue sea systems remote battery switch, model 7700 (specs here (https://www.bluesea.com/products/7700/ML-RBS_Remote_Battery_Switch_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A)). This is sufficient to take the full current draw of the winch, and will integrate well with the planned charging relay.

The remote battery switch uses a Bi-stable ('latching') relay coil to operate the contacts inside the switch. This is done thru a 'Single Pole Double Throw' (SPDT) momentary switch to select between open or closed states in the switch (if not familiar, it's the same style switch as a power window button). It is supplied with a neat little contura switch, but wondering if I might be lucky enough to be able to fit an original land rover switch into a spare space in the puma dash.
Does a compatible SPDT momentary switch exist in another model which might be suitable for a spare spot in the puma dash? Did the factory winch options have the ability to isolate power to the winch in-cab?


Failing this, the specs suggest I could also use a SPDT switch without the momentary function, but I'm assuming this would energise the coil and lead to current draw when the switch is in both the on and off states (which I want to avoid for battery drain reasons). Can anyone advise?
I want to run factory switchgear on the dash wherever possible, and keep all non standard stuff on / in the ex box.

Here is the wiring diagram for those wondering. In my case, the winch will replace the engine in the below pic.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/861.jpg

[POD]

Wouldn't the momentary function mean that the switch needs to be held down during operation? This is often used for auxilliary starting via a second battery, not what you would want for winching though, I would have thought you would need a latching switch so the winch stays energised and is then controlled by it's own controller (I'm assuming you are doing this as a security isolation for the winch, rather than an in-cab winch control).
I used a rear wiper switch from a Disco 2 for my compressor, it fits in one of the top row of blank switch spaces on the Puma dash (in the 130 these are all blank, I think the rear wiper and demister switches may be there in the wagon, still some blank spots though). There are several different switches from the D2 that fit these holes, they all seem to have different internal circuitry depending on their function (at least one of them is probably SPDT), also some are momentary and some are latching. I had to modify the internals slightly, plus replace the switch face with the face from the blank.

[Tombie]

Pod

The isolator uses a latching relay - so a momentary press will latch it until it is de-energised.

[Tombie]

As for factory SPDT, all switches for LR I have seen are Off-On(Mom) SPST units.

[Toxic_Avenger]

The beauty of the rbs I've been looking at is that it will handle the current of a winch and is latching. It only draws current when changing state of the unit- ie from connected to disconnected. Other models will draw 13ma to keep the relay in the closed or open position, which I hope to avoid if at all possible.
I thought I'd be pushing my luck with a momentary spdt switch, but worth asking! Its mainly a aesthetic driven query, not a show stopper.

[MLD]

Have you touched base with Daniel at Mulgo. He is stocking a range of LR switches for the Puma dash with a lasered icon for different functions. Bit pricey for what they are but if originality is paramount the cost can be justified.

MLD

[Toxic_Avenger]

Have not yet spoken to Mulgo, but definitely on the cards.

[MarkM]

I'm looking at doing the same thing, but using the Blue Seas 7713 switch, same series but simpler control, only uses 13mA holding current when on.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I like the interface of the 7713 model, as from what I gather it's an auto releasing coil relay... but the downside is the current needed to keep that coil in either the open or closed state (even if only milliamps). For an accessory that will be used once in a blue moon, I'm hoping to keep as many parasitic circuits out of the vehicle wherever possible.

The product blurb mentions that model 7713 can use a SPST switch if a 'normally open relay is desired'. This would put most 'normal' Disco 1 style switches in reach of doing the desired task. I'm guessing that's what I need if I want a factory looking switch.

Would that also mean that if the coil is auto releasing, than it defaults (unpowered) to an open state, and hence requires no current to stay open?

Initially I couldn't understand why blue sea systems wanted another 60 odd bucks for the 'new and improved' 7713 model, when they moved from a 0mA draw bi-stable coil to a 8/13mA draw auto-releasing coil model... but now it's starting to make sense - more switching options, and a potential 0mA draw if operated as a normally open relay! :cool:

[Leyland1980]

Try a freelander rear (as in tailgate) electric window switch - I think that other window switches are earth switching whilst the freelander rear one is "normal".

[Toxic_Avenger]

I've sought some clarification from the manufacturer (blue sea systems) regarding the operating current draw of the 7713 model in the OFF state, using it with a SPST siwtch.

I'm chasing opinions from those of us on the right side of the pond ;-)

The 7713 is an auto releasing 'normally open' relay coil - my understanding is that this defaults to OFF when unpowered (open circuit).

I asked what operating current I could expect when using a SPST switch with this relay - answer back was 8mA, as per their specs:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/720.jpg

...but this doesn't add up for me. I would expect 8mA when using a SPDT switch, as the relay would need to maintain a circuit to hold the coil OPEN or CLOSED...

My understanding was that if I'm using an auto releasing normally closed coil, with a SPST switch to pull the relay in and CLOSE (complete) the circuit, the helper spring in the relay will keep the circuit open without a current draw when no power is applied to the relay.
Is this right, or was I given a bum steer (or question misinterpreted)?

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/03/718.jpg

...And looking at the wiring diagram, it seems to support that the relay helper spring is what is holding the circuit OPEN, and that the only power input is that which is needed to power the coil and pull the relay contacts together to CLOSE the circuit.
Unless it's normal for a large relay/contactor such as this to use an internal powered coil to assist the helper spring to be normally open? :confused:


Another hint found in the bowels of the user manual is that a SPST switch, if used, may cause inadvertant switching if the terminals get damp. Surely that's not possible in a land rover?! :p

[MarkM]

My guess (totally a guess) is that the 8mA is drawn from then main battery input terminal by some internal circuitry, doing who knows what. It obviously cant be drawn from the control input as it is open circuit.

This leakage also concerns me, as I am considering using this also. But perhaps the solution is to put a simple, cheap full load isolator on the supply side of this, and leave this isolator open for daily driving, and close it only when the winch might be required. That way there is no power supply to supply the leakage current during daily driving.

If you work out more, please let us know.

Mark

[Toxic_Avenger]

That's what confuses me.
ML-RBS Model 7713 is a new and improved version, but when you look into it, the only real benefit is slightly simpler wiring and the ability to run a SPST switch (which admittedly can lead to latching issues if moisture is present at the switch). How's that for marketing trying to 'value add' :p
I'm starting to see the 7713 model as a downgrade.

I know 8mA is not a deal breaker, but you add up a lot of accessories which draw a little bit, and before you know it you're depleting battery life while the car is unused. This is a compounded issue if were used in a boat that might see some action once a month.

ML-RBS Model 7700 is bi-stable. So the relay coil magnetically latches in one position or the other, and uses no power in either open or closed states. The current needed to switch is the same though by the looks, which is done by a momentary push button switch (DPDT- one switch switches 2 circuits - one to open, one to close the high current side of the RBS).

[n plus one]

That's what confuses me.
ML-RBS Model 7713 is a new and improved version, but when you look into it, the only real benefit is slightly simpler wiring and the ability to run a SPST switch (which admittedly can lead to latching issues if moisture is present at the switch). How's that for marketing trying to 'value add' :p
I'm starting to see the 7713 model as a downgrade.

I know 8mA is not a deal breaker, but you add up a lot of accessories which draw a little bit, and before you know it you're depleting battery life while the car is unused. This is a compounded issue if were used in a boat that might see some action once a month.

ML-RBS Model 7700 is bi-stable. So the relay coil magnetically latches in one position or the other, and uses no power in either open or closed states. The current needed to switch is the same though by the looks, which is done by a momentary push button switch (DPDT- one switch switches 2 circuits - one to open, one to close the high current side of the RBS).

FYI I've had this set up on my truck for two or three years and the 8/1000A current draw is a complete non issue - my batteries were still fully charged after around 4 months without starting.

[loneranger]

Are these the type of switches your talking about.

https://www.lrdirect.com/YUG000530LNF-Switch-Rear-Fog-Lamp/

If so I have some I purchased in error.

[Toxic_Avenger]

FYI I've had this set up on my truck for two or three years and the 8/1000A current draw is a complete non issue - my batteries were still fully charged after around 4 months without starting.

Have you got any pics of your setup?
What kind of switch are you using (Normal or Momentary SPST switch, or SPDT?)