BRC IMPCO Install on 96 GEMS P38

[TheTree]

I picked up a second hand BRC LPG injection system for my P38 and was wondering about the best location for the main bits

Read with interest the thread on throttle body hoses v T-piece into heater hoses, I never had an issue with the throttle body hose method on my MY99 beast.

I have attached some pics of the main bits and will welcome suggestions.

Luckily i have a BRC installer just down the road who is happy to do the job and has been doing LPG stuff for over 20 yrs :D

Not sure if he has done many Rangies though

Thanks
Steve

[bee utey]

I did a second hand Impco BRC install to a '97 GEMS last year and he's having trouble with the TB heater circuit. I will be doing the tees when I see him next. I'm pretty sure I mounted the gas ECU to the back of the battery box and the converter nearby. The injectors were mounted in two banks, DS just over the rocker cover and the PS angled in from the front, using a tee piece in the delivery hose.

I don't remember taking any pics of that one but if I get a chance I'll take some and post them up.

[TheTree]

Hi Jilden,

Thanks for that; That area seems to be the best spot since the shock turret is a good place to mount the convertor.

I have an electrical distribution panel mounted on the back of the box ATM so it might be easier to move that than find another spot for the LPG ECU

Also my rail is a single piece but it's joined in the middle so it could be made into two easily.

Looks like T-Pieces off the heater hoses are the go rather than the throttle body hoses.

Thanks mate
Steve

[TheTree]

On closer examination I found a couple of other bits, which I assume are a part of the system, one of which appears to be broken. Pics attached.

The hoses have definitely been plumbed into the heater hoses via a T-Piece so that's relatively easy. I think I will put new hoses on when this is done.

The switch is a bit of a battleship :confused: maybe I can get something a little smaller!

Thanks again
Steve

[bee utey]

1. The spare bits don't look like LPG bits to me at all, unless you find where they were plugged in I'd chuck 'em.

2. Water tee pieces should be made of brass in any case. I assemble my own tees using 19x19x16 tees with 10mm nipples threaded into the 16mm part. That allows better flow to the heater and better sealing into the existing hoses.

3. The switch simply pushes out of its housing and can be mounted in a flat panel. I can't remember exactly where I put it but it may have been mounted into the front lip of the plastic panel under the steering column. There is just enough space in one spot, you may have to trim some plastic behind the drop panel.

[TheTree]

Thanks mate

I'll double check about those bits with the installer, but I think they are stray bits from the wreckers

The t-pieces on this are made of brass

I think I have a spot for the switch once it's out of that housing

Regards
Steve

[DasLandRoverMan]

Done a few P38's, wouldn't rate the BRC system though, if nothing else (when I was doing em) there wasn't facility to configure the gas ECU to the car.

I usually put the ECU in the battery box next to the engine one, injector rails sat on top of the rocker covers (THOR engines had a better trick for getting the pipes in) whilst the vapouriser usually ended up on the N/S/F inner wing next to the suspension compressor. Theres a few threaded studs down there you can attatch a bracket to which helps some, plus a lot more space over that side than trying to wedge it in on the drivers side.

T the water pipes into the heater circuit, and make sure (if youre putting the vapouriser on the passenger side) that your pipework sits low enough as you can get into the coil packs or changing leads becomes more of a **** of a job.
I wouldn't use the throttle body heater hoses to warm the vapouriser over here (in the UK) as I doubt there would be enough flow to prevent the vapouriser freezing up in some of the cold we get, but as it's generally a lot warmer over there you could probably get away with it?
Either way, into the heater circuit is a better way.

[TheTree]

On a slightly different note, in Mario's thread he said

"LPG fitters take the intake plenum off to drill and fit the injector nozzles."

My question is;

Do they really leave the inlet manifold in place to drill and tap it, or are they putting the injector pipes into the plenum or trumpet base?

Steve

[TheTree]

I found this thread which answered my question!

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/lpg/120336-considering-lpg-my-4-6-gems-2.html

I have a spare manifold so I will give that to the Installer and he can modify it. Then I will fit it with my new carbon fibre intake trumpets and Gen III injectors and make sure the motor is running nicely on petrol

Then off to the installer for the rest of the work

Steve

[DasLandRoverMan]

On a slightly different note, in Mario's thread he said

"LPG fitters take the intake plenum off to drill and fit the injector nozzles."

My question is;

Do they really leave the inlet manifold in place to drill and tap it, or are they putting the injector pipes into the plenum or trumpet base?

Steve

For best results you want the gas pipes as short as possible and the nozzles as close to the petrol injector position as you can manage.
Generally some disassembly is required to get access to drill the manifold, but a complete removal isn't usually necessary in my experience of doing them (or not at all on a P38).

I've seen a few conversions which had the nozzles half a mile from the petrol injectors, and pipes that were longer still. U surprisingly they didn't run particularly well.

[TheTree]

I find hard to imagine that it is possible to drill and tap the inlet manifold in-situ without at least some swarf getting into the inlet ports in the head, something which does not appeal to me :o

Steve

[bee utey]

I find hard to imagine that it is possible to drill and tap the inlet manifold in-situ without at least some swarf getting into the inlet ports in the head, something which does not appeal to me :o

Steve
I've done it plenty of times, I use a dry sharp drill bit and an industrial blower up the inlet branch or throttle body as appropriate. Then a dry 6mm tap to cut the thread before switching off the blower. I wear safety specs as the shavings fly out of the hole instead of dropping in. Last thing on a LRV8 is to blast a slug of compressed air down each port to see how clean your drilling was. The odd tiny flake of soft alloy left after that won't hurt anything. Did a D2 a couple of weeks ago that way and it didn't miss a beat after starting.

There's nothing stopping you doing it with the manifold off though, replacing an inlet manifold gasket while you're there is good practice anyway if it's getting old.

[TheTree]

Hi Jilden

If you say that's the way to do it, then i'll ask the installer how he wants to do it and go from there.

I would rather not take the inlet manifold off since it seems to be in good shape and is about 50,000 Km old.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions

Regards
Steve

[DasLandRoverMan]

I find hard to imagine that it is possible to drill and tap the inlet manifold in-situ without at least some swarf getting into the inlet ports in the head, something which does not appeal to me :o

Steve

A few little flecks of ally swarf will go through the engine and get burnt off very quickly.
Never had one give trouble in that respect.

[TheTree]

A few little flecks of ally swarf will go through the engine and get burnt off very quickly.
Never had one give trouble in that respect.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions mate :D

Steve

[Roverlord off road spares]

On a slightly different note, in Mario's thread he said

"LPG fitters take the intake plenum off to drill and fit the injector nozzles."

My question is;

Do they really leave the inlet manifold in place to drill and tap it, or are they putting the injector pipes into the plenum or trumpet base?

Steve Hi Steve I was referring to the Thor motors in the Disco2 late P38s, different manifolds
Cheers,
Mario

[TheTree]

Hi

Well i have finally got to the point where I booked the LPG install for the 29th

I looked at mounting the LPG ECU beside the battery as Ron B has done but there was not enough room there, so I have mounted it on the back of the battery box.

The convertor is going on the drivers side shock turret since the passengers side has the evap purge valve mounted on it.

Not sure how or where the injector rails are going to be mounted. I am open to suggestions on the positioning of them.

Looks like I am going to be able to avoid the petrol price hike which is coming next month :p

Steve

[bee utey]

I can't remember exactly how I fitted up the BRC kit to the last GEMS I had in here but there's enough space on the passenger side in front of the throttle body to mount that side rail. The rail may even have been mounted vertically. The hoses ended up at similar lengths with a bit of a loop to the front two cylinders.

The right hand side was mounted laying back to the rocker cover with hose loops to the manifold. The rails were bracketed to suitable inlet manifold bolts.

Sorry I forgot to take pics of that install.

[TheTree]

Thanks Jilden, this guy Alan at AV GAS Woy Woy seems pretty switched on, he has been doing conversions for over 20 years.

He has done a disco GEMS before, but not a Rangie so I am just giving him a couple of suggestions.

Regards
Steve

[Scouse]

For best results you want the gas pipes as short as possible and the nozzles as close to the petrol injector position as you can manage.
Generally some disassembly is required to get access to drill the manifold, but a complete removal isn't usually necessary in my experience of doing them (or not at all on a P38).

I've seen a few conversions which had the nozzles half a mile from the petrol injectors, and pipes that were longer still. U surprisingly they didn't run particularly well.Sorry to butt in on your thread Steve but what sort of difference is there in having the injectors a fair distance from the original petrol injectors?


It's just that I recently helped work on a GEMS engine with the LPG injectors right near the petrol ones & now I'm helping (sort of) with Thor V8.
The guy with the Thor has fitted the LPG injectors just below the upper/lower manifold joint &, IMO, it seems to defeat the point of having sequential injection when they're so far away.

[bee utey]

Sorry to butt in on your thread Steve but what sort of difference is there in having the injectors a fair distance from the original petrol injectors?


It's just that I recently helped work on a GEMS engine with the LPG injectors right near the petrol ones & now I'm helping (sort of) with Thor V8.
The guy with the Thor has fitted the LPG injectors just below the upper/lower manifold joint &, IMO, it seems to defeat the point of having sequential injection when they're so far away.

Having spent numerous hours attempting to fit injected LPG to a single plane manifold on a P76 engine, I can say that if the LPG is injected too close to the top of the runners you will lose mixture to adjacent cylinders with intake resonance. I fitted 100mm nylon extension tubes to the nozzles to try and keep the gas in the short runners, that was reasonably successful. If I had the job again I'd fit a proper injection manifold with spacer plates.

In an injection manifold the runners are clearly long enough to contain the injected gas if the nozzles are somewhere near the petrol injectors. Move away from the head and the possibility rises that some gas is stolen by adjacent cylinders. Based on my limited experience (compared to a fleet lpg installer say) nozzles drilled up to around 1/3 of the total length of the runners away from the inlet valve are OK. A Mitsubishi 380 BRC kit I purchased second hand had the nozzles just above the manifold upper/lower join and probably ran perfectly that way.

Oh and the placement of liquid injectors (petrol or LPG) is quite critical to ensure atomisation, evaporation etc. whereas vapour injection is much less critical as gas and air mix quite quickly and don't suffer from wall sticking or any problems from droplet size.

[TheTree]

I am no expert in this area but there are two things I have learnt;

The pintles which screw into the manifold which,as Jilden has said, should be as close to the original injectors as possible though gas is more forgiving than liquid it seems.

Then there are the LPG injectors in their own rails which should be connected to the pintles with the same length of tube for each, and that tube should be as short as possible.

On the GEMS he will be roemving the Intake Plenum and trumpet base as far as I know. That bunch of bananas is a different story though :o

That seems to be the consensus of the experts :D

Regards
Steve

[bee utey]

Just found this picture on my camera showing where I finally ended up plumbing the return line from the converter. For some reason the engine thermostat would fully close the heater circuit and cause the converter to ice up. Hasn't had a problem since this modification. (Oh and before anyone wants to comment on what looks like a leak to the passenger side of the water pump, yes, I spilt some coolant while playing with the hoses).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=103524&stc=1&d=1451186185

Access to the w/pump inlet for drilling and tapping a 1/8 bsp nipple is easy with either the fan or the alternator removed. :)