Another plane down.

[V8Ian]

It's been a shocking year for the industry.

Mystery surrounds final moments of Germanwings Flight 4U9525 - 9news.com.au (http://www.9news.com.au/World/2015/03/25/11/39/Germanwings-4U9525-What-we-know-and-what-we-dont-know)

[V8Ian]

Is it getting to the point that pilots are relying too heavily on computers?

Only the quick thinking of a pilot averted a similar tragedy last year when a sister plane of the Germanwings jet suddenly lost altitude and nose-dived.

According to the European Air Safety Agency, a safety system designed to protect the jet reacted to incorrect data due to a faulty sensor.

Read more: Germanwings flight 4U9525 received safety warning months ago after sister plane went into tailspin | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3009337/Germanwings-flight-4U9525-received-safety-warning-months-ago-sister-plane-went-tailspin.html#ixzz3VMu8p82M)

Germanwings flight 4U9525 received safety warning months ago after sister plane went into tailspin | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3009337/Germanwings-flight-4U9525-received-safety-warning-months-ago-sister-plane-went-tailspin.html)

[Eevo]

flying would be safer if the pilot was removed all togehter

[Chucaro]

Three days ago I read in an Spanish paper that a Lufthansa Airbus A321 on route from Bilbao to Munich the 5/11/14 had a massive computerized navigation system due to sensors frozen by extreme low temperatures.
The plane lost 3000 meters in a couple minutes and thanks to a quick reaction of the crew who switched of the computers to be able to control the plane manually.
If was not for the crew for sure will be another crush.
The news was published firsts by 'Der Spiegel'

[Eevo]

that would be the exception that proves the rule.

90% of crashes are attributed to pilot error.



just think of car "accidents"
99% of them are caused by the pilot (driver)

[Ean Austral]

Terrorism may be a factor.

Cheers Ean

[Chucaro]

I found a thread in English about the above case.
Eevo, this plane without pilots like you would like to see will be another fatal disaster.

Iced AoA sensors send A321 into deep dive (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558483-iced-aoa-sensors-send-a321-into-deep-dive.html)

[Eevo]

Airplane accident statistics (world-wide) [31]
Year Number of accidents per one million departures
2009 4.1
2010 4.2
2011 4.2
2012 3.2
2013 2.8

[BigBlackDog]

What the statistics don't show and you don't hear about is the times when pilot intervention stops accidents, and I mean long before it gets that far. Variables such as weather and traffic that the systems can struggle to work with because they aren't so black and white.

[Eevo]

Terrorism may be a factor.

Cheers Ean

first ive heard that mentioned. got a link?

[Eevo]

What the statistics don't show and you don't hear about is the times when pilot intervention stops accidents, and I mean long before it gets that far

actually they are reported, or at least they should be.

incident vs accident. both should be reported.

[Blknight.aus]

actually they are reported, or at least they should be.

incident vs accident. both should be reported.

yeah, just so it makes it easy to manipulate the statistics...

near miss events should be but often aren't recorded as actual accidents.

I mean after all at the end of the day all this is is another incident of an unscheduled airframe/ground interface.

[Landybitz]

The last year as been one of the safest on record for Air Travel. The press just like to make a bigger issues of things.

[JDNSW]

yeah, just so it makes it easy to manipulate the statistics...

near miss events should be but often aren't recorded as actual accidents.

I mean after all at the end of the day all this is is another incident of an unscheduled airframe/ground interface.

In aviation, incidents and accidents are different - an accident is where actual damage is present, but an incident is where risk is increased or a regulation is broken. This could, for example, be anything from a loss of communications en route with no risk to anyone to a near-miss where two aircraft passed within a few feet of each other.

All incidents are supposed to be reported, but quite clearly are not, especially where the only person who could have reported it is someone who was involved. And adding incidents to accident statistics would not be very helpful both because of the unknown level of reporting and the simple fact that most incidents are fairly trivial. But reporting incidents is a very important tool in increasing aviation safety.

John

[Eevo]

thanks JDNSW

[Blknight.aus]

I disagree, mainly because of the way the statistics can be read..

the system we have is crippled because something thats a minor incident on the ground can be a catastrophic event in the air.

a slightly less banket way of saying it would be....

if it happens while the aircraft is configured for flight like operations its an accident regardless of the outcome. (think taxi-ing for flight, take off, landing or during passanger loading/with passangers on board)

if the aircraft is configured for ground works then its an incident unless the aircraft is damaged or someone gets hurt. (think being taxid to a maintenance location, being towed, while in maintenance, being cleaned)


the easy way of telling if a plane is supposed to be in flight configuration is simple, if the operation you are about to undertake occurs after or during a a pre flight safety by a pilot but before the plane is handed back to maintenance personal/ground crews its in flight configuration and should be perfect (ignoring CFU's)
hh

[Pickles2]

Interesting to note the recording of incidents & the reason for them happening. Someone mentioned computers.
A year or so ago Wifey & I were on a Ferry, when I noticed it going straight towards some cliffs, which got closer,...and closer!! About 20/30 meters off shore, the boat finally stopped, & came to a standstill. It then slowly turned left, & we resumed our journey.
Upon leaving the boat, I asked a crew member what happened & he informed me that there had been a computer "lock up" which had temporarily "frozen" the ship's navigation system, and it had taken a while to get manual systems operating. Nothing was ever mentioned in the Press.
We were never in any danger, as the water was shallow, & the seas were calm, but I can see that a similar computer "freeze" situation in an aircraft could possibly have far more severe consequences.
Pickles.

[Chucaro]

More news about the 320 sensors.
Just wondering how common it is this problem on the 320 models and if it has been resolved.
I am not in favor in relaying only in electronics, human intervention it is a good backup to have :)

Jetstar, Tigerair warned about A320 fault: report (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/03/26/jetstar-tigerair-warned-aircraft-a320-fault-germanwings/?utm_source=&utm_medium=Top%20Stories&utm_campaign=Top%20Stories)

[JDNSW]

I disagree, mainly because of the way the statistics can be read..

the system we have is crippled because something thats a minor incident on the ground can be a catastrophic event in the air.


You may disagree, but the two terms are defined in the Air Navigation Regulations and Air Navigation Orders. And accidents and incidents are not recorded for the purpose of generating statistics, but for the purpose of increasing air safety by finding the causes of accidents ("accidents") and potential accidents ("incidents").

Data collection for accidents is probably pretty complete, because damage is seen or needs to be repaired etc, whereas it is pretty certain that incident reporting is very incomplete, as nobody likes filling out 225s. This means that conflating the two data sets is likely to be misleading, although some incidents could very likely lead to accidents, but did not, simply due to circumstances - for example when the plane I was flying dropped a valve about thirty miles from Wagga; since I was at 9,000ft and still had some power, it meant an emergency landing at an airport, where if I had been climbing over the Great Divide 1500 ft above terrain, the outcome would have been very different.

John

[Eevo]

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015, it was discovered that one of the pilots had been locked out of the cockpit and had been actively trying to break down the cockpit door. He started by knocking lightly,and then, getting no response hits the door louder. He never got an answer.




whats a crappy way to go. :(

[JDNSW]

Makes it sound like either pilot incapacitation or pilot suicide. But how to decide which, could be very hard.

John

[Eevo]

Makes it sound like either pilot incapacitation or pilot suicide. But how to decide which, could be very hard.

John

incapacitation made sense, but, it also appears the plane stalled as there was a decrease in airspeed.

[Blknight.aus]

You may disagree, but the two terms are defined in the Air Navigation Regulations and Air Navigation Orders. And accidents and incidents are not recorded for the purpose of generating statistics, but for the purpose of increasing air safety by finding the causes of accidents ("accidents") and potential accidents ("incidents").

Data collection for accidents is probably pretty complete, because damage is seen or needs to be repaired etc, whereas it is pretty certain that incident reporting is very incomplete, as nobody likes filling out 225s. This means that conflating the two data sets is likely to be misleading, although some incidents could very likely lead to accidents, but did not, simply due to circumstances - for example when the plane I was flying dropped a valve about thirty miles from Wagga; since I was at 9,000ft and still had some power, it meant an emergency landing at an airport, where if I had been climbing over the Great Divide 1500 ft above terrain, the outcome would have been very different.

John

Its also pretty well defined within the scope of the TAM, the 059 and the 053.

Im not talking about the actual events Im talking about the reporting of the statistics

lets say you have 9 incidents of the flangle breaking but since so far its always happened on the ground you haven't had an accident. but its got the potential to cause the plane to fall out of the sky.

you then have one where it causes the plane to have an accident and crash

right up till that point you can quite honestly claim that the breaking of the flangle has not caused n accident.

but lets then say that instead of crashing you had a fantastic pilot who saved the plane, left it reusable and everyone walked away. you then still quite honestly say that the flangle hasnt caused an accident.

generaly speaking big bosses dont worry about "little things" until their OFT has red bits in it. and middle managers love getting their bonuses by doing whtever it takes to keep it taht way.


if the latest news about this stuff turns out to be true and one of the pilots locked the other out of the cockpit Im blaming towel heads and religion. with out the whole "my god says therefore you will because I believe" crap and fanatics there wouldn't be locks on doors, hell some aircraft wouldnt even have he door in the first place and my sons would have a chance o have some of the opportunities I had at his age. Watching the stars on a perfect night from the big seat up the front and being allowed to hold the wheel.

[Eevo]

i cant believe the latest news.
it ran through my head as a possibility given the decrease in airspeed but i didnt want to think someone would do that.

its easier to believe it was an accident
quite upset right now

[JDNSW]

i cant believe the latest news.
it ran through my head as a possibility given the decrease in airspeed but i didnt want to think someone would do that.

its easier to believe it was an accident
quite upset right now

See my post #21

I believe it - and it is not the first one. There have been three or four others previously. Just this is the first one in mainland Europe in an aircraft operated by a major top line airline (even if it was their budget carrier).

John

[Eevo]

See my post #21

I believe it - and it is not the first one. There have been three or four others previously. Just this is the first one in mainland Europe in an aircraft operated by a major top line airline (even if it was their budget carrier).

John

now i feel guilty for shunning your idea.
it happening in the past doesnt make it any easier for the victims.

i can accept mechanical failure for a plane crash (things break), i can accept bad weather for a plane crash (nature at work), i can accept pilot error for a plane crash (we're human after all). that risk is always there.
death by someone elses suicide though...

the passengers death would of been painless and instant, but they would of known for 10min they were going to die. i cant accept that. some probably made phone calls to love ones. imagine getting that call.

[p38arover]

the passengers death would of been painless and instant, but they would of known for 10min they were going to die. i cant accept that. some probably made phone calls to love ones. imagine getting that call.

I'm surprised we haven't heard of any calls. I understand a number of passengers on the U.S. aircraft in 2009 made calls after the terrorists hijacked the planes.

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm surprised we haven't heard of any calls. I understand a number of passengers on the U.S. aircraft in 2009 made calls after the terrorists hijacked the planes.
I heard on the news this morning there were.

[JDNSW]

I'm surprised we haven't heard of any calls. I understand a number of passengers on the U.S. aircraft in 2009 made calls after the terrorists hijacked the planes.

Reports say there were screams from passengers only a minute or two before impact. Most passengers would have thought it was the mountains getting higher not the plane getting lower until very close, and even if they did realise it was getting lower, would have simply thought it was an ATC level change. It was a controlled descent in calm air.

John

[Eevo]

I'm surprised we haven't heard of any calls. I understand a number of passengers on the U.S. aircraft in 2009 made calls after the terrorists hijacked the planes.

depends on the law in the particular country.

[Eevo]

Reports say there were screams from passengers only a minute or two before impact. Most passengers would have thought it was the mountains getting higher not the plane getting lower until very close, and even if they did realise it was getting lower, would have simply thought it was an ATC level change. It was a controlled descent in calm air.

John

decent an hour before landing time
mountains getting bigger in the window
pilot banging on the cockpit door.

any 2 would have me worried.

[JDNSW]

Wikipedia lists eight airline crashes concluded to be suicide, and four "believed" to be suicide.

John

[BigBlackDog]

I'm surprised how quickly they have announced that the copilot was to blame. Not saying I don't believe it, but there are a lot of factors that could have created the same outcome. I don't think they have found the FDR yet have they? Only the CVR? Air crash investigations through history have a habit of ending up with a different conclusion to the obvious one. That being said, only the investigators of this one know the details, so maybe it is obvious.

Blknight, Apple almost refuses to let me type your user name. A component failure discovered in maintenance should be reported as a SDR, service difficulty report. This covers anything that would effect the safety of flight. The most common simple one is corrosion in light aircraft, which creates statistics that are then turned into Airworthiness Directives that might include enhance inspection schedules or component updates. But it's a big system. You can selected access SDRs I think through CASA website.

[p38arover]

I'm surprised how quickly they have announced that the copilot was to blame.

Don't believe anything you read in the paper. I'll wait for the official report. Newspapers are all about writing a story to sell the paper accurate or otherwise.

I heard an advert the day after the crash where Ch7 said "We investigate what caused the crash." or something along those lines. What I picked up on was the "we investigate".

How did they do that? How about "We theorise" or "We made up a story that we thought you might believe".

I loved a pic in the Daily Telegraph today - in case you don't know where the cockpit on a plane is located, they've circled it on a drawing.

http://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/news-networkeditorial/multitools/static-image/content/1427406614359/1427406666936.jpg

[Fourgearsticks]

You should know better than watch channel 7 Ron! How goes life?

[p38arover]

You should know better than watch channel 7 Ron! How goes life?

I don't! I heard it on the radio which I normally don't have turned on because I can't stand the adverts nor the announcers when there are more than one.

[BigBlackDog]

Whose that person with their finger on the door lock switch? Surely they might have something to do with all this

[Blknight.aus]

Blknight, Apple almost refuses to let me type your user name. A component failure discovered in maintenance should be reported as a SDR, service difficulty report. This covers anything that would effect the safety of flight. The most common simple one is corrosion in light aircraft, which creates statistics that are then turned into Airworthiness Directives that might include enhance inspection schedules or component updates. But it's a big system. You can selected access SDRs I think through CASA website.

yes but thats still not what Im getting at. Ive got no problems with an SDR but the SDR is done as part of maintenance before the plane is released to the pilot I'm talking about the stuff that goes wrong with a "perfectly flyable" or "CFU accepted" aircraft

What i have an issue with is is when a breakdown occurs that could have but didnt lead to an accident. say pilot excelence or just sheer luck prevents the accident. Maintenance wise a whole lot goes on but up at the money spending decision making its an "incident" not an "accident"

the way its understood by the guys on the ground doing the fixes I've no beef with. Its when the money grubbers higher up get to spin their side that needs to be looked at. " no accidents on my watch, I'll take that bonus and cut back the maintenance budget to justify them giving it to me becausee Im saving them money." Sure nice work there bucko but how many near misses were there that could have gone worse?

[superquag]

It's coming out (Friday night) that the co-pilot has previously endured a debilitating and long term bout of depression...
I'd be worried if any pilot was on anti-depressants, many of which have been associated with quite a few youth-perpetrated killings. I've heard (ok, "read"...) that the side-effects can be permanantly mind-altering for some people.
A scary thought !

[Pickles2]

It's coming out (Friday night) that the co-pilot has previously endured a debilitating and long term bout of depression...
I'd be worried if any pilot was on anti-depressants, many of which have been associated with quite a few youth-perpetrated killings. I've heard (ok, "read"...) that the side-effects can be permanantly mind-altering for some people.
A scary thought !
"Side effects permenant"?....CORRECT, VERY CORRECT....any little thing can trigger it again. I'd be very wary of any pilot with any suggestion of that illness.
I heard on the radio this morning that He was being treated by a local hospital for something along these lines & that he had been given a sick note to excuse him from work on the day?
Pickles.

[Blknight.aus]

It's coming out (Friday night) that the co-pilot has previously endured a debilitating and long term bout of depression...
I'd be worried if any pilot was on anti-depressants, many of which have been associated with quite a few youth-perpetrated killings. I've heard (ok, "read"...) that the side-effects can be permanantly mind-altering for some people.
A scary thought !

dont be to quick to blame the drugs, some of them have really nasty side effects and others have worse things if you develop a dependancy on them and stop them but the depression itself, if it hits you hard enough and long enough the depression it self will permanently change you.

so many things have the ability to be a trigger some of them stupidly minor, (for exampletheres a forum member whose user name reminds me of how bad I got ever time I read it, its not the person, its not the posts its just the word that is the name and If I'm down in a trough it hits hard its like cracking a dam and theres nothing you can do till the torrent subsides then you have to fight your way through rebuild and the clean up) and one minute you can be standing there solid as a rock the next you've got the mental integrity of a jelly fish, sometimes you just stop, sometimes you'll loose track of everything and in the want to get back to being what you remember yourself being you just do something. Sometimes that something can be the worst thing to be doing in that situation but its all you can think of to do and you dont realise how bad your making things. I'f your lucky you'll have a friend on hand who'll tell you and help you, if your lucky you'll pop out of it yourself sometimes you just get in a loop and do the same thing over and over.

If you're lucky it doesnt happen while you're doing something that's going to kill you or your friends

IF you're not.............

I can easilly see how it happened if the co-pilot had had depression, the pilot goes out for a drink, stretch his legs the security door closes behind him the co pilot is alone, he hears a vocie on the radio that sounds like the person he lost he sticks into a fuge, he reacts to something instinctively and then stalls himself.

I've done it, I was vaccuming, the dads4kids add came on the kids voice that sounds like alex's said dad and the next thing I knew it was dark outside the breaker on the powerboard let go. I dont know how long it takes for one of those cheaper vacuum cleaners to get so hot it blows a circuit breaker.

I feel sorry for those who lost their lives on the plane, I feel worse for those who are about to go through this because of it.

[superquag]

Ah, I see that You've been here too...

Makes it all the more important to have a friend or two, and to make "listening to them" the default reaction when you don't feel the best.

Like trusting your instruments in cloud...

[wrinklearthur]

Sometimes I don't realise I am having a moment until the Misses tells me.

Talking about the problem is the only way for me to handle it, as taking antidepressants had led me to having too many side-effects.

I don't like driving long distances anymore without someone with me to keep me chirpy.

I am very careful these days in the way I go about doing my work, the pain from a recurrence of my back injury or joint pain is a trigger for my problems, so I have a spell and work out a easier way of going about a job to prevent another bout of pain.
.

[BigBlackDog]

Lufthansa will be hoping they didn't know or have any evidence of this guys problems, mental and physical, the lawyers will hang them out to dry, probably will anyway. News is saying on top of the dexpression issues he was losing his sight, which probably doesn't help the mental state too much

[superquag]

I'm going out on a limb here...and guessing the anti-depressants he was on are SSRI's. - which have been a associated with some nasty mass- killings by young men.

Logically, a depressed person will be less likely to report long-term side effects - if they have'nt been on them long enough to be fully affected...and less likely to report any they may recognize. or NOT recognize.

[Blknight.aus]

Ah, I see that You've been here too...

Makes it all the more important to have a friend or two, and to make "listening to them" the default reaction when you don't feel the best.

Like trusting your instruments in cloud...

nope, still here...

not being helped when the people that are supposed to be helping tell you things like "I thought you were being difficult but I just read the email trail, you raise some valid points"

really not helping that exactly the same thing that starts it all off is happening again.

especially not helping not sleeping even tho I'm up to the full dose of temtabs i mean the worked the first night, a little the second and third and then friday... I woke up at 0400 and excusing the stalls Ive had while IVe been doing stuff around the house,

The dogs well exercised tho.

[mekon76]

I can tell you Aropax was a battle to get off and had some horrifying effects and withdrawal effects that bigpharma don't want to admit to.