It pays to get a second opinion on Doctors

[Roverlord off road spares]

Heather did some major damage to her Knee before Christmas, it might have been a result from an earlier fall, we don't know what caused it. She saw our GP and he sent her fro a MRI.
The MRI came back and it said she had major damage there with tears.
She has a lot of pain walking, the knew has major swelling, and has been swollen for months now
We haven't got private Health insurance, so inquired with an orthopedic surgeon, estimate was over 10k for him and then Hospital etc etc.

So we got a referral to a public hospital outpatients orthopedic dept. Maroondah, months after we got an appointment and attended the out patients. We took the MRI report and films with us. A long wait to see a doctor, who wanted Xrays done at the hospital. so again hours wait. Had the xrays done and saw him finally. Young Asian guy, with a trainee. He didn't bother to look at the xrays he had order and went by the MRI. He came to the conclusion an operation was not the best plan. He said Heather would be up for a Knee replacement anyway when she reaches her 60's. He said she had arthritics under the knee cap.
His diagnosis was that for treatmentwas to take fish oil capsules , physio and hydro.

We go back to our GP, he is furious, he said fish oil will not repair and fix the problem, key hole surgery with a good clean out is needed.

So he refers us to another public Hospital ( which just happens to be under the same regional hospital group) BOXHILL

Yesterday we saw an orthopedic surgeon at this other hospital.
I questioned this doctor and asked are you a "Real Orthopedic Surgeon?, he seemed taken back and said "YES I am"
So he exams the MRI film and concurs what our GP said. Heather needs an operation to fix the knee, a clean scrape and biopsy. He fills out surgery forms. I then explained to him what my intial comment was about him being a "Real Ortho" and explained we went to the sister hospital and was told to take fish oil tablets etc. He got into the system and looked up the other hospitals clinical notes and was taken back. He said no that would not have been a solution to Heathers problem.
Also the arthritis, that the first doctor mentioned and the future knee replacement was poppycock! He knee is healthy except for the tearing

Heather is now on the waiting list, but at least now she can have it repaired. We have wasted 4 months so far.

She was perscribed Steriods a week ago by our GP, the next day it made her more mobile and stopped the seizing up of the joint, but steriods are dangerous and she can only use the for a week, including weaning of the dose. At least it gave her 1 week of less pain and mobility within the 4 month period she's put up with it.

We did sign up for private health insurance , but have to wait the exclusion period.

The point is when you go to a doctor and you don't think the decision is the right one, it pays to get a second opinion and not just cop it.
The junior Doctor we saw at the first hospital was way off the mark, unfortunately it's the luck of the draw who you get to see you, I wonder how many other patients he might have misdiagnosed. We did hear him confer with a senior doctor at the appointment, but he was verbally instructing the senior doctor, so the senior doctor can only go by the diagnosis as verbally explained.

[Eevo]

as a side point, fish oil is recommended by so many doctors, either its really good stuff, or a great money making scam.

[DiscoMick]

Fish oil is a lubricant, but it's not going to repair a tear. It would be like trying to repair a broken CV joint with grease alone, I think.

[jimr1]

You and your wife must be feeling a lot better knowing that It can be repaired . My wife had a partial knee replaced last year and It took a good 6 months to come good . So the best of luck , let's hope you don't have to wait to long !!.. Jim

[Ausfree]

Doctors are just fancy tradesmen, they can make mistakes like any body else. Good on you for getting a second opinion.:)

[Roverlord off road spares]

Doctors are just fancy tradesmen, they can make mistakes like any body else. Good on you for getting a second opinion.:)
But some times you cop the apprentice :( learning doctor

[jx2mad]

Sounds like a torn cartilage. I had one when I was 18. Took 2 weeks to diagnose, followed by surgery and 11 weeks to recover. Jim

[NavyDiver]

Rule one- get a good GP, rule two go back to the GP before accepting advice in the public system. ( I am lucky- I have or work with four outstanding GPs sorry they are full.)

I see daily good and really horrible issues with both hospitals you mention and others. There is sadly also a huge difference between a good surgeon and a great surgeon. Many good doctors but sadly some really bad ones in the public and even the private systems. My Doctors are very reluctant to try new specialists. Ones they know and trust are great. Getting on that list is tough. It is a private list but interestingly many of the good ones also do some days in the public systems. Good GPs know. Ones who are too busy for money like many Bulk Billing clinics wouldn't have a clue.

I hope your wife gets the care needed to remove the pain mate.

[mox]

I reckon if possible would be good idea to have someone like a football trainer who has had a lot of experience dealing with knee problems to check it out. Around 20 years ago after doing a job that involved a lot of climbing type activity, my left knee became very swollen. Also, sore, especially to move. Went to local GP who crapped on reckoning I might need an operation and referred me for an X ray. Two days later received result. All it showed was a claimed trace of early arthritis - which still hasn't eventuated. Asked neighbour involved with footy club who they used. Referred me to two blokes - who I gather even doctors have sent people to and had also worked on nurses who had things out of place from lifting /moving patients.


The problem with my knee was probably started with a couple of old injuries 10 and 20 years earlier. Anyway, the extreme pain and swelling was caused by three ligaments around the back which normally stop knee moving sideways were out of place. With sideways movement, cartilage got out of place was getting crunched on side of joint. Experienced trainer put ligaments and cartilage back in place. For several weeks needed to strap around cartilage with netball finger tape with orthopaedic pad under it. I put lit out again a couple of times doing silly things and the second time for logistical reasons went to the other therapist. He was also very good. Used some slightly techniques. For my problem equally effective. They both reckoned knee may have needed an operation to stop the problem but it fixed itself. Occasionally since I have suspected ligaments out of place again and got them put back before any further trouble.


More recently I had a similar problem with right knee. Back to same trainer. Was basically same problem with ligaments out of place allowing sideways movement in knee joint and cartilage out. However there was also intermittent soreness with movement - probably from bits of crunched up cartilage moving round in the joint. So he recommended I go to the doctor and first get an X ray to make sure there was no bone or other problem it would show. All clear, so got referral for an arthroscope. A specialist job to check for and remove rubbish floating around in joint. A long wait unless done on private health insurance or paid for up front. Meanwhile the problem seems to have cured itself - at least temporarily.


Seems to me medical problems are sometimes like mechanical ones - especially with older machinery. There is often more than one thing that needs fixing. with eg a knee, is possible that an appropriately experienced masseur type therapist could diagnose and fix at least part of it. Then after what has been fixed settles down, it is often easier to diagnose remaining problems.


Regarding my knee problems, hate to think what I may have gone through had I just gone to GP and who he referred me to. In the meantime told me to take Panadol. Morphine would have been necessary to stop pain from this cartilage problem before it was put back in place.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Rule one- get a good GP, rule two go back to the GP before accepting advice in the public system. ( I am lucky- I have or work with four outstanding GPs sorry they are full.)

I see daily good and really horrible issues with both hospitals you mention and others.



Ones who are too busy for money like many Bulk Billing clinics wouldn't have a clue.

I hope your wife gets the care needed to remove the pain mate.

The unfortunate thing is when you present yourself at Accident and emergency, you are seen too by the junior doctors , ( yes everyone has to start some where) and they are overseen by a senior doctor.
If it wasn't for some switched on nurses offering advise then there could be some bad results. The doctors frown on nurses butting in, as it's a ranking thing, but I have had some young doctors actually appreciate comments from the nurses.
I was in the Angliss many years ago where a coffee cup broke in my hand and slit my finger open. I attended A&E and was told by the young doctor that I didn't need stitches and had a penicillin shot. One week later i was in extreme pain, I went to A&E and the triage nurse noticed I has septicemia. It seems I had a large fragment of coffee cup inside my wound . I was in hospital for 2 days and had an operation. The young doctor who swa me in A & E originally commented to me he couldn't see the what the fuss was about, He could have removed it in casualty. Yeah right mate, I'm nearly dying due to your lapse in diagnosis.


Re bulk billing clinics, one Sunday when Brendon was a baby he was screaming constantly, I took him to a bulk billing doctor who was open on Sunday, he said take him home and give him a warm bath.
Heather then took him to the Angliss hospital and their they found he had a severe bladder infection and hence the screaming from extreme pain. He was admitted to hospital and was given penicillin and a day later recovered.

I see a GP that we have seen for over 20 years, he bulk bills but gives you the time you need during the appointment, it can be 20 mins or 1/2 sometimes with me.
One of the other doctors sees about 4 patients in that time.
I often comment to my doctor that the other one is money hungry.

[superquag]

On a related tack...

Regarding knee surgery:

This article deals with a common procedure (at least in the USofA) - and looks at the similar benefits resulting from the actual (invasive) operation, and from a totally fake one...

MMS: Error (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1305189)

and here as well...

Arthroscopic Surgery - Just a Placebo Effect? | PlaceboEffect.com (http://blog.placeboeffect.com/arthroscopic-surgery-just-a-placebo-effect/)

Just goes to show, that a second opinion is never a waste of time, no matter where it might point you. Your gut-feeling will usually tell you which one is correct...

I was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes, and long-story-short, the conventional medical prognosis is.... eventual probable progression to Type 1. I got 'second opinions' and their consensus was ....'conventional medicine' does'nt know how to cure/halt it.
So I did the opposite of what the diabetic "experts" said.... Guess the result !
Same with my high BP. :o Ditto excessive spare tyres...

Nothing wrong with a 3rd or more views at the same problem.:D

[EastFreo]

About 13 years ago I badly broke my ankle (a bone I didn't even know I had called the talus). Luckily I had someone who is widely regarded as one of Perth's top orthopaedic surgeons. Also just as fortunate was his advice that surgery should be last resort. He wanted to see what would happen after being immobilised for a while and amazingly it healed back very nicely.

Not sure if the healing was helped by the large amount of milk I still drink (love the stuff) but in the last couple of years I have even managed to run two marathons and not had any major issue with the ankle.

Glucosamine was recommended by many. Have also taken it on and off.

[mike123]

My son did his knee in playing rugby, torn meniscus. It was extremely sore and he couldn't straighten it. We couldn't get an MRI as his bent leg wouldn't fit and so it was a calculated guess as to what had happened to his knee (X-ray didn't show any breaks). The surgery was keyhole. Discharged the next day from hospital with his leg was in a restrictive brace for 6 weeks. All up a successful operation.

I hope Heather's op is soon and it all goes well.

[digger]

Ive had a couple of ligament reconstructions over the years
Last year I had someone slam a car door into my knee as he felt he did not wish to make my acquaintance, this broke the patella straight down the guts and chipped the bone also, This was cleaned out (the floating bits removed, the torn ligament edges (I did this chasing and tackling him after he did my knee...my bad! didnt think it was quite as serious!)) trimmed (at least not broken/torn through this time) and sadly the last of the cartledge was 'trimmed' out of it)

I have recently had some trouble after playing cricket (knee swelling very badly and extreme pain on bending) Diagnosis? basic arthritis, its down to bone on bone.. So its been recommended to take daily doses of panadol osteo and also at least one capsule a day of stuff containing condroitin sulphate (i hope thats spelt right!).. (usually comes in a "joint formula") These are available over the counter without prescription.

It was described to me as being something to assist more longer term in aleviating pain by helping lubricate the joint, its not a cure nor a miracle fix but a help.

Recommended by a friend though was a cream called "pain away arthritis cream" - Its been quite a relief to use this cream as it does tend to help relieve the pain. It is in a bright orange jar with a green lid and weve only found it at a place called chemist warehouse, at $12-14 a jar.

Finally I still quite often use a support brace, just a neoprene brace that has a hole for the knee cap and three velcro straps to hold it in place, they are available from chemists also and can assist in taking the strain from the joint, the kneecap and the ligaments and muscles around the knee..

Hope that things get much better for your girl and soon, good on you for not accepting without questioning.

cheers.
Digger

[Roverlord off road spares]

It is a torn meniscus, and they will take a sample of the fluid as well to make sure there is nothing else going on there as well.
The joys of getting old. Heather

[mike123]

With my son's torn meniscus it hadn't come away completely and had folded back on itself which is what made it impossible for him to straighten his leg. There was enough of the meniscus still attached and so they could use sutures the meniscus back to the bone (what ever it attaches to anyway).

Hopefully it works out well for you Heather.

[Eevo]

i hate to be a negative nancy, i hate when people go to a second doctor for an opinion when they dont like the diagnosis of the first.

(im not suggesting the op has done this)

[Roverlord off road spares]

Well it's a waiting game now to see how long I have to wait before I can have it repaired. Heather

[Ferret]

i hate to be a negative nancy, i hate when people go to a second doctor for an opinion when they dont like the diagnosis of the first.

(im not suggesting the op has done this)

Frankly, I think it is the sensible thing to do with anything serious. This includes the both the diagnosis and the proposed treatment. Doctors are ordinary people doing extremely difficult jobs - they are not infallible. They have differing levels of diagnostic experience and have differing approaches/techniques to treatment.

You can't always get the right doctor for you by just going with the first one your referred to.

[Eevo]

You can't always get the right doctor for you by just going with the first one your referred to.

i understand that.
im refering to people that are in denial about their condition.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Well my Gp said that the knee would not get better if I did not have it fixed.
As the tear it making it so hard to walk and the knee would lock up if I did not keep moving or should I say hopping around. Can not get up from a chair with out pushing on the arms as I could not bend it to get up. This frist dr was young and he had to talk to another dr about it. This dr that I went and saw said it has to be cleaned up, as one day it will lock up so bad I can not move it. Fish oil would not repair the tear. There are so many Dr out there that have had more experience and have done more studying.
If you are not happy with the first dr go and get another one. So you are saying that if you had something that is going to impair on you life you would just curl up and accept it. Heather

[Eevo]

If you are not happy with the first dr go and get another one. So you are saying that if you had something that is going to impair on you life you would just curl up and accept it. Heather

if the first dr is correct, going to a second doctor even if he gives a different opinion wont change the actual problem.

for example, last year i was in a nasty MVA. there was a high chance my leg was going to be amputated.

i didnt like that news and it would of been a major impairment on my life.
getting a second opinion to get a better diagnosis because you dont like the first is silly.

im not saying doctors dont make mistakes, because they do. being deluded or in disbelief about diagnosis is just crazy.

[Eevo]

Well my Gp said that the knee would not get better if I did not have it fixed.

im not doubting that. fish oil is more a preventative measure.
i think part of the problem is that you're using the public health system.

[Roverlord off road spares]

The other Dr I saw did not agree with just fish oil.
If you do some research on that tear it has to be clean up because it is so BAD. An not every one can afford health insurance, that why we have the public heath system. We are luck to have it, not like USA where your job is linked to health care. So if you lose your job you are stuffed
I had insurance when I was young and had it when I had my 2 boys.
Drop out about 10 years ago when we could not afford it anymore.Saying that I am using the public system is just wrong.

[Eevo]

If you do some research on that tear it has to be clean up because it is so BAD.

im not doubting that. fortunate you can have surgery to improve it. i have a ruptured/torn peroneal tendon.





An not every one can afford health insurance, that why we have the public heath system.

yes i understand that but you can not expect the same standards from the public health system.
private health is expensive and there is a very good reason for that. because it is so much better.



.Saying that I am using the public system is just wrong.

expecting the same standards from the public system is wrong.

[Roverlord off road spares]

The dr I saw works in the public as well as the private (Epworth).
You do get Drs that cross over in to the public system as well.
This would be the first time we as a family have uses the Public system since we drop out insurance 10 years ago. So I would not say that I am using it.
Some of the private hospital are not up to scratch, they are going after the big bucks. You might get better food doesn't mean you get better Drs

[Eevo]

Some of the private hospital are not up to scratch, they are going after the big bucks. You might get better food doesn't mean you get better Drs

sounds like i've had a different experience to you. some public hospitals are great, like the RAH and W&C.

i dont think any hospital serves good food. haha

[loanrangie]

In the 2 surgical emergencies i have been unfortunate to have i was lucky to get a top orthopaedic surgeon using the public system , going private would have made no difference at all.
After care is where i am finding the problems with the public system, not from quality of care but from the booking and waiting times.
Elective surgery is a different matter.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoMick]

We haven't had private health insurance for a long time and haven't missed it. The public system has been fine.