Blue smoke from a Diesel, only under certain conditions

[sclarke]

OK...
Where do i start?

2 weeks ago Hiline said my Defender was blowing some blue smoke.
I noticed it at night more on idle as i had cars behind. When you take off it does not happen.

Ok... Then on the weekend in Off road conditions.

On a Downhill run it is perfect if you are at no throttle, as soon as you open the throttle about 1/8 it starts to poof blue smoke out. this then can be made real bad buy punching it then backing off... it then will smoke a whole track out.
The smoke then clears and wont smoke on climbs or flats but down hills yes under slight throttle it smokes.

So any ideas??

Now do diesels produce vacuum? i thought back to Petrol engines and thought Valve stem seals or Turbo.

As it does not do it 100% i rulled out rings.

I managed to drive all day Sunday with no smoke as i knew what makes it happen. So it has to be only under cetain conditions.

OK lets not get this thread full of "it could be" responces. Lets try to relate to something you have seen. If you have a petrol engine that has done it, id say it wont be the same, they have different vacuum and combustion conditions.

My thoughts are Oil Flame trap is sucking oil if its blocked. Turbo? Valve stem seals.

Steve

[Rosco]

Originally posted by sclarke

Now do diesels produce vacuum?


Not as far as I'm aware, that's why they have a vacuum pump hanging off the bum of the alternator.

Can't offer any other ideas on your smokin..

Cheers

[sclarke]

OK i think ive found the problem...

Its British..... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

no seriously...

Continuous blue smoke indicates worn rings / bores, while a puff of blue smoke after a period of idling or during rolling down hills with the accelerator backed off indicates worn valve guides /valve stem seals.

I'm guessing valve Guides or stem seals.

if it is its all 2 easy.... i'll ignore it for another 100k

[drivesafe]

Only two suggestions from my own experiences.
First, when were your injectors cleaned last.
Second, do you notice if the smoke started after your last fill of diesel, have you bought fuel from somewhere you don’t normally use.
I don’t know about in Vic but in NSW it is legal to mix heating oil with diesel so you may have filled up with some crap. :idea:

Cheers

[Reads90]

Originally posted by sclarke
OK...
Where do i start?

2 weeks ago Hiline said my Defender was blowing some blue smoke.
I noticed it at night more on idle as i had cars behind. When you take off it does not happen.

Ok... Then on the weekend in Off road conditions.

On a Downhill run it is perfect if you are at no throttle, as soon as you open the throttle about 1/8 it starts to poof blue smoke out. this then can be made real bad buy punching it then backing off... it then will smoke a whole track out.
The smoke then clears and wont smoke on climbs or flats but down hills yes under slight throttle it smokes.

So any ideas??

Now do diesels produce vacuum? i thought back to Petrol engines and thought Valve stem seals or Turbo.

As it does not do it 100% i rulled out rings.

I managed to drive all day Sunday with no smoke as i knew what makes it happen. So it has to be only under cetain conditions.

OK lets not get this thread full of "it could be" responces. Lets try to relate to something you have seen. If you have a petrol engine that has done it, id say it wont be the same, they have different vacuum and combustion conditions.

My thoughts are Oil Flame trap is sucking oil if its blocked. Turbo? Valve stem seals.

Steve

There is not alot to go wrong diesels

But the general rule with a diesel is

White smoke Head gasket Because that is water in the fuel
Black smoke un burn't fuel, Injectors nackered
Blue smoke Oil related

So with your case it is one of three things

Rings , which you thing it may not be , only real way to test is to give it a compresion test, and see what you get. Another way of testing is to run it and take out the dip stick and rev it if it thoughs out loads of spltter of oil then you have crank case preesure, which is caused bu gone rings. Can do the same by tacking off the oil filler cap while running. And look and see if the engine is chuffing (like a steam train ). Again means the rings are going.

Value stem seals. This usally blues out blue smoke when first starting , and leaving on tick over for a bit. This is because the oil dips around the seals and into the pots and then when you start the truck or give it some it burns it off and then stops when it has burn't it all off

Head gasket may have gone between the oil way and the 4th pot. (always the 4th pot as is the one that gets the hotest , as it is farest away from the rad). But i don't think it is this. But saying that on the 200 TDI there was a problem with the head gasket and they on last about 100,000 miles before the need replacing because they go at the 4th pot. So if you have not replced the gasket yet then you may have to. The Factory fitted gasket was too weak and the replacement is alot better and stronger. Everyone i know with a 200 TDi with more than 110,000 has had their head gasket replace. The 200 TDi is a great engine and bullet proof apart from this little problem. But if it is the rings than you will have to change the head gasket anyway, so that will solve that

I had a problem with a diesel of mine like this . It ended up being a rings, even though the signs did not point at them. The worst thing they do is build up crank case compresion and then blow the rear main oil seal (which is behind the clutch) cost about a couple of $ but got to take the engine out to replace it. If you rev the truck (hard ) and then back of to tick over does the oil light flicker.

Hope this helps. I know you want a straight answer but more than not it is not that simple, but i can tell you one thing, what ever happens you are going to have to rip the engine apart and not fix it from the out side. But the 200 TDi is easy to work on and simple to fix , remeber it is only one step ip from a lawn mower to fix. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[DEFENDERZOOK]

check and see if your intake is full of oil....

we noticed a couple of diesels blowing smoke after going up a steep hill in low range with the revs high.....it must have sucked in oil that may have been sitting in the bottom of the intercooler or somewhere similar....


or it may just be an oil seal in the turbo......


so have a look ...not in the air cleaner but at the turbo between the turbo and engine if you can....if there is lots of oil in there its probably the cause of the blue smoke....


keep us informed

[shaunp]

May be worth cleaning the intercooler.

[sclarke]

It has done the Blue smoke thing since 2 weeks ago, i never picked it before hand.
At that time i changed the timing belt and oil.
Oil is the same as what was in it. Penrite Diesel.

What i will do is the PCV valve, they all have some crank pressure so i have been told by a very smart LR fella.

Then i'll see if it still does it, if so then the next will be fuel then turbo (ive got a spare)

Here is a good one....
Injectors and pump were replaced at 160k as it had a miss and carried on. Well the miss is still there at high load... 100kmh

I need to do some diagnostics on it. Throw the boost gauge on it and EGT to see what is happening. Then i'll see what i can find.

Also would Alge in the fuel cause problems???

Its strange it just started being bad on this trip on the down hills...

I'll get it to do it this weekend in the Hills...

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Originally posted by shaunp
May be worth cleaning the intercooler.



if it is the problem.....it may not be.

of the two cars that did it i was talking about one of them was aces and the other was a td5.....(noddys)
two different engines did the same thing after going up a steep hill.


i cant think what else it could be........both cleared up after a few minutes and are now running as if nothing happened.

[shaunp]

You did a belt and then you noticed it, are you sure the pump is not retarded that will make it smoke.

[sclarke]

Yep checked it at the time. the timing seems to be perfect.
if it was one tooth out i'm guessing it would not fire...

i used the tools and timed it spot on, i think.

OK 2nd twist...
after it started to do it bad, ie this trip it is not hard to start, but it missfires and sounds as though its running on 2 or 3 cylinders, then it clears its throat.
i orig thought it was us being at 1600meters above sea level and below 0deg C.
But last night i moved the Fender to find same start fault.
it clears up but you can judge its smoke as its cold and it always poofed blue smoke on start for a minute or 2.

1st Morning in the High Country it was a beast to start, fired straight up, but then ran on 2 or 3 for about 1 minute. i had to provoke it with some right foot to get it to clear... and lordy me it was pumping blue smoke out....

I might have got a bad hit of fuel in Melb, but i really doubt it.
Since then it has had 50 litres thrown in it and is half empty again. Still same fault.

OK i will check the intake to see how much oil is in it, if that is the case then it proberly is the PCV or hurracane valve filling the intake up.
That problem can be solved by a clean or a bypass to a catch can for the time being.

My scare is that i'm hoping its not a dead donk, ie rings...
Or worse still if it starts to run on its own oil....
If that happens you will see a pic of a Fender Burnt to the ground.... i'll torch it if that happens...... Grrrrr :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

So this weekend i'll unpack it, clean it and then start by pulling the Turbo hoses off and PCV and intercooler and cleaning it.

Its only a smidge overfull on oil as we speak as i topped it up the 1st night as it seemed to have drunk about 300ml. Could be wrong...

I've just priced a Head gasket incase the Gasket has blown, the missfiring at start up has me concerned but water level is ok.

I'm just scared incase it does the run on its oil thing, only one way to stop them.... Block the air or watch it self destruct...

I'll keep you in the loop...

Ohh question.. as this has Air con. How in hell do you get the intercooler out as the top radiator plate is bolted to the condensor and it is not encaged nuts... Grrr.... cause i would have cleaned it last time if i could get it out easy.

Any idea's from DefenderZook or 200TDiDefender would be super...

Steve

[sclarke]

Update.....
Update.......

I spoke to the Guru of Landys (Fred Smith) who has informed me it is most likely Pump Timing.

He has explained that if they are out only a whisker they will blow blue/white smoke.
I explained the conditions its doing it and when it does it and the start problem and he is thinking it is Pump timing.

So this weekend i have to clean the Turbo pipes and also check the Pump timing.

Lets hope it is..... other wise i'll be really scratching my head

[Quiggers]

A quick question here...what is the mileage on this donk and how has it been treated?


My gut feeling is the the oil ring; while the rest has merit, there's a basic rule of physics to apply. Blue smoke is oil and somehow it's being burnt, which means it's getting into the firing chamber; so how is it getting in there in enough volume to do so? By your description of oil consumption via the sump......

As was said before and above....

If it is the oil ring this can be ameliorated for a while, but the piston rings, time for a rebuild.

Compression check would also be advisable.

Exhaust valves are not ultimately an excuse for oil (blue smoke) burning, in my experience. ie if they're sus you would have already noticed other dramas,

Back to Q#1 mr clarke I'm curious. Pump timing? I thought the idea was that the oil was a continuous (and therefore irrespective) flow and as the pistons moved up and down, oil drew to lube the pot, but the oil didn't get past the last of the three rings or you'd be drawing oil and burning it, inturn compression would be lower than spec.

Cheers, GQ

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Ohh question.. as this has Air con. How in hell do you get the intercooler out as the top radiator plate is bolted to the condensor and it is not encaged nuts... Grrr.... cause i would have cleaned it last time if i could get it out easy. [/b][/quote]

Hmm, this one is a pain. I recently took the radiator & intercooler out to get the rad tanks sweated off for a thorough clean, and at the same time flushed the intercooler. Unfortunately, even with the top plate off, you don't seem to be able to get either unit out because the end plates are folded over and there isn't enough room to get them out with the A/C condensor in place. :roll:

The only way I could get either rad or ic out was to remove the front slam panel, unbolt the A/C condensor from the front of the rad, and gently swing it forward so I could then lift the entire rad/ic assembly complete with it's surround up out of the vehicle. Note that the A/C condensor must be moved forward first, because it sits on the bottom of the rad surround and wont allow that to be lifted as is. The slam panel had to be dissassembled on mine because the stays were in the way of the bolts holding the A/C condensor to the rad and prevented me being able to swing the condensor forward.

An obvious word of warning here, the lines to the A/C condensor are alloy, 12 years old and wont appreciated being pushed and pulled around. Move things as little as you can possibly get away with to get the rad out. You don't want to over stress the pipes and be rewarded with a pssssst from a cracked line, especially with an old R12 system.



Paul style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[shaunp]

Originally posted by Quiggers



,

Back to Q#1 mr clarke I'm curious. Pump timing? I thought the idea was that the oil was a continuous (and therefore irrespective) flow and as the pistons moved up and down, oil drew to lube the pot, but the oil didn't get past the last of the three rings or you'd be drawing oil and burning it, inturn compression would be lower than spec.

Cheers, GQ

Injection pump timing not oil pump. THe belt has been changed just before the problem was noticed, it's easy to get the pump timing wrong if you don't do the belt job correct. Poor pump timing will make them smoke just like this.

[sclarke]

Yep Shaunp, thats what i have been told.
Blueish smoke, rough start could be pump timing.

1 way to find out, Pull it down and look.

i'll clean the Turbo hosed/intercooler while i'm there.

and unpack it....lol.. still full of camping gear and Fridge...

[shaunp]

You can check the timing via the window on the cover I think.

[sclarke]

Thats what i'm hoping......

if not Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrr

[Quiggers]

Got it, shaunp, thanks, this might explain one of my issues. really must get it tuned!

GQ

[JohnE]

Fellas,
i like it when someone comes up with little problems we can all relate to.
My 300TDI, does a similar thing going downhill but only does it when it is cold, as soon as you start accelerating ( at the bottom of the hill) this big puff of whitish/bluish brownish smoke comes out and that is it. It doesn't do it again,on that day. I figured it was oil from the intercooler or turbo.(It never did it when we lived in Sydney.)Sitting around all night with nothing to do.

My Pajero would do the bad smoke trick as you described except in reverse backing off coming up hill, to turn into my street. Found the cause BP ultimate diesel, I don;t recall what everyone has stated is the fuel of their choice but in my vehicles the stuff is rubbish, even in the discovery, too much smoke to be normal efen under light load, changed brands and no more smoke.

The rough startup, 2 or 3 cylinders then a cough and normall idling, I belive is injectors more so that timing. I also have rough starting in the pajero, ( worst with that terrible bp fuel) it coughs on about 3 cylinders for a minute or so, smokes the mozzies out of the trees and clears itself. I put a new set of injectors in when I had the motor rebuilt, I think one is sticking or has something to do with the spray patern, they were checked but it wasn;t bad enough to replace again. Its one of those indiosyncrasies you put up with.

good luck, at least its not an electrical fault your chasing!

john

[LandyAndy]

Hi John
In your Pajahero,is it the 4D55/4D56 motor????Your rough starting/smoke will be a stuffed glow plug,its a very common problem in those motors.Our Trytoo gets the same problem,and the Trytoo at work needs glowplugs on a regular basis.Glow the plugs a few times without starting at cold then feel the glowplugs for a cold one,that will be the offender.
Andrew

[gruntfuttock]

Originally posted by drivesafe
I don’t know about in Vic but in NSW it is legal to mix heating oil with diesel so you may have filled up with some crap. :idea:
Cheers

Hello JohnE

Could this come into play re your bad fuel from BP????

[JohnE]

Again i like it when like minded people are about.
Andy for yours its the 4d56, (got an upgrade from 4d55)
I had glow plugs go before in the old motor the only way it would start was with the farmers friend Aerostart. Then had a bugger of a time getting the new ones to work, mine are 12volt and I was sold 6 volt, they burnt out in a week. But I will take you advice on board and check them, I didn't think of the glow plugs.Now that I think of it they are the plugs that came with the motor. See an electrical fault the last thing you look for in a diesel.

Mr Grunt
I don't know if the fuel mixing was the case with the BP fuel but I do know it is rubbish for my vehicles, in both diesel and petrol versions. Bad smoke with the diesels and , even though I never checked it, I don't think the economy was there.
I had a bad run with fuel years ago from an independent shell outlet, the paj started runner rougher and rougher. A mate of mine had a shell outlet too, I got him to look at the car , in his mechanic hat, his estimation was I had been using a cocktail he reckoned that was al the rage for diesel. I changed the fuel filter nad ran a bottle of injector cleaner through and it fixed the problem. I only bought fuel from the one place. I cut the fuel filter open it was caked with a reddish muck that was so thick it was a wonder the paj went.
The petrol I tried there stuff in my 'project' car my 5ltr HZ wagon( I'll finish it one day) been fixed to run on unleaded, it pings driving out of the driveway of the petrol station even their high octane stuff does the same.
Even though their was a post about avoiding the high enders in the fuel business, I still go to the Mobil here in Lismore the fuel quality is good in petrol and diesel.
But gettin back to the original post was the smoke problem sorted out, is it rings is it turbo oil seal is it a clagged up intercooler, or is it simply bad fuel.

John

[sclarke]

Update....

Pump timing was out, not by much, but a little.
Went down a few hills and played and no smoke...

Intercooler is clean as is the intake pipes.

So i'd say Fred Smith Automotive was on the ball again.

Now..... it starts smooth and clatters nice like it should... it accually sounds like its retarded as it pings more...

Ping
pong
ping
pong
ping
pong
ping
pong
ping
pong

[gruntfuttock]

Originally posted by JohnE
Again i like it when like minded people are about.
Andy for yours its the 4d56, (got an upgrade from 4d55)
I had glow plugs go before in the old motor the only way it would start was with the farmers friend Aerostart. Then had a bugger of a time getting the new ones to work, mine are 12volt and I was sold 6 volt, they burnt out in a week. But I will take you advice on board and check them, I didn't think of the glow plugs.Now that I think of it they are the plugs that came with the motor. See an electrical fault the last thing you look for in a diesel.

Mr Grunt
I don't know if the fuel mixing was the case with the BP fuel but I do know it is rubbish for my vehicles, in both diesel and petrol versions. Bad smoke with the diesels and , even though I never checked it, I don't think the economy was there.
I had a bad run with fuel years ago from an independent shell outlet, the paj started runner rougher and rougher. A mate of mine had a shell outlet too, I got him to look at the car , in his mechanic hat, his estimation was I had been using a cocktail he reckoned that was al the rage for diesel. I changed the fuel filter nad ran a bottle of injector cleaner through and it fixed the problem. I only bought fuel from the one place. I cut the fuel filter open it was caked with a reddish muck that was so thick it was a wonder the paj went.
The petrol I tried there stuff in my 'project' car my 5ltr HZ wagon( I'll finish it one day) been fixed to run on unleaded, it pings driving out of the driveway of the petrol station even their high octane stuff does the same.
Even though their was a post about avoiding the high enders in the fuel business, I still go to the Mobil here in Lismore the fuel quality is good in petrol and diesel.
But gettin back to the original post was the smoke problem sorted out, is it rings is it turbo oil seal is it a clagged up intercooler, or is it simply bad fuel.

John


It was just a suggestion style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

A boke in my home town was caught putting kero in his tanks when he had to get rid of the old kero pump.

[JohnE]

Thanks mate,
it was a very valid suggestion, I don't know if it is the case. In my opinion the fuel is just rubbish, so i won't be using it anymore.

Back to the start of the site, timing eh, i think I need to go for a drive, to that MR place near Brisbane, get the experts to do mine.

john