HD drive flanges for puma 90

[jackdef90]

Hello all,
Having allready replaced my rear drive flanges once (with pricey stock ones) I would like to invest in some HD ones, a set for the front and rear. I know the ones i have fitted will wear out again.
I have been looking through the bearmach catalogue and apparently modification is needed to fit their HD ones on vehicles fitted with ABS?? not really sure why.
I have also looked at ashcroft and HTE ones and both seem rather pricey, but have been assured that they fit.

can anyone who has done this give me the part number for a set that will fit, assuming same for front and rear.
I would prefer to go to say, Rovacraft in Perth and purchase them as opposed to ordering off the net.

[PAT303]

West Coast Rover have what you want in stock,there's no difference between ABS and non ABS flanges. Pat

[jackdef90]

Also, another question, with the aftermarket HD flanges, some websites state it is possible to grease the stub axle by just removing the screw on cap and putting in (somehow), is this true?

[Xtreme]

Quite a number of Defender owners have overcome the problem of worn drive flanges and axle splines by converting to oil fed/lubed bearings.

[jimr1]

Hi Jack , yes you can load up the cap , plus a dob on the axle end , screw the cap on , some should go down the spline !!.. Jim :)

[jackdef90]

Thanks Jim, that's great,
would lithium grease be ok? And would the splines benefit from a layer of molykote?

[PAT303]

Mine are going strong after 16 years with wheel bearing grease. Pat

[jimr1]

Thanks Jim, that's great,
would lithium grease be ok? And would the splines benefit from a layer of molykote?
Jack I use Valvoline ,"Aalplex EP " general automotive grease , that's because I've got a big tub of It . I think any good grease would do , after all nothing moves on that end of the shaft or flange !!..Jim..

[Xtreme]

Jack I use Valvoline ,"Aalplex EP " general automotive grease , that's because I've got a big tub of It . I think any good grease would do , after all nothing moves on that end of the shaft or flange !!..Jim..

If "nothing moves on that end of the shaft or flange" then how does the wear occur?
I have seen the splines worn to such a degree that the original square cut shape has become triangular resulting in significant backlash in the drivetrain.

[PAT303]

^^^^ and the P38 gets blamed for it. Pat

[jimr1]

If "nothing moves on that end of the shaft or flange" then how does the wear occur?
I have seen the splines worn to such a degree that the original square cut shape has become triangular resulting in significant backlash in the drivetrain.
Thanks mate , When I said nothing moves , what I meant was nothing spins , but I think you new that . So lets start again , I know what backlash is , plus Mechanical advantage . If I had my way Land Rover should have used RRC/ Disco type shafts ,with fixed flanges . They don't flog out . Defenders due to poor design , and bad engineering do flog out . They could have made them an Interference fit , that would give them a longer life , but they don't . That's why you can buy after market , better quality flanges . I was trying to be helpful , and answer a young blokes question !!... Jim

[Rurover]

Hi Jack , yes you can load up the cap , plus a dob on the axle end , screw the cap on , some should go down the spline !!.. Jim :)

What about screwing a grease nipple into the end of the cap and giving it a squirt every now and then?
Anyone done that , and has it worked?

Alan

[simmo]

Hi any grease should be OK as long as you top it up regularly.

My preference is for moly coat of any molybdenum grease , they are more suitable for the low speed high load application of the drive splines and if they dry out there's still the lubricant from the Moly B there. It's part of my service routine to remove the little hub cap and put a level teaspoon of grease in there and screw/push the cap back on, usually at my occasional bearing adjustment time .

Its not necessary to change to oil filled hubs. My car has oil filled hubs but that was to make for reduced wheel bearing maintenance. My feeling is if you keep your splines and drive flanges cleaned and lubricated their lifespan is indefinite. It takes 30 minutes per wheel, say once a year to remove the drive flange and clean it in petrol , apply grease and refit.
The front drive flanges/axles/CVs on my car have done 200,000 kms and look like they have another 200K in them. I only went to HD flanges and axles on that back because they were recommended with the maxidrive to cope with the increased torque.
The OEM rear axles and drive flanges looked in mint condition when they were removed at about 120,000 kms. ( They will be up for sale one day when find them in the shed :D)
Land rovers copped a lot of unjustified criticism (IMV) over drive shafts and flanges failure, that was mostly related to poor maintenance. ( Something Land rover Australia must accept some blame for )

The heavy duty aftermarket flanges are fitted because of their higher torque rating , the higher wear resistance is a bonus you get, but if you neglect them they'll be wrecked just like the OEM ones. Many times I saw land rovers driven with missing or no rubber hubcaps, the axles and drive flanges bone dry and red from fretting corrosion. I 'm thinking that guy is either rich or crazy. He's probably wondering later how come he needs to replace a few hundred dollars worth of flanges and axles shafts. The rubber hub/axle caps can come off, but they cost 5 bucks each, I always have a couple of spares in the car. The screw on metal ones seem never to give any problem, but i recommend you remove them regularly they can get hard to remove the thread is very fine.

I disagree about the axle/flange interference fit idea, and the integrated drive flange, the downside of both those if you have any clearance in you wheel bearing the axle is subject to bending moment at the drive flange. Also it makes changing/adjusting your wheel bearing difficult.

The fully floating axle as fitted to the defender is the best axle system available, its tried and proven for decades of use the big trucks. But it requires some attention to detail & simple, inexpensive routine maintenance to deliver the best results in terms of service life. cheers simmo

[jimr1]

What about screwing a grease nipple into the end of the cap and giving it a squirt every now and then?
Anyone done that , and has it worked?

Alan
Hi Alan , I never heard of putting grease nipples in the caps , The caps come off easy with a big shifter , giving access to the end of the drive shaft . What I do know is with , with my rear mags " deep dish " the center plastic wheel cap doesn't fit , because the hub cap hits It . The front ones are ok. I suppose It depends on what wheel you have . Looking at mine if you were to put a grease nipples in the caps you would still have to take the wheel off to get access , unless you put them on the front , and I don't think that's a good idea !!.. Jim :)

[simmo]

Hi Jim,I'm sorry if i wasn't clear, i don't have grease nipples and don't see any need for them. I just remove the hub cap, rubber type or screw on type and put some grease in there and put them back on, the grease will work through the splines into the hub. On the older defender it's easy because the hub is always visible. On range rover wheels and later mag wheels you need to remove the wheel to do get access to the cap. That's not really a problem, I guess most people take their wheels off once a year? for rotation, maintenance access for bearing adjustment, brakes , tyre rotation etc. For me I can grease all the drive flanges and shafts in 20 minutes because I have open center wheels. My rear ( maxidrive ) ones i use the hub spanner, but I don't do them up too tight , and grease the thread.(molycoat), I had trouble getting one off once , maybe I did it up too tight , those fine threads need some grease on it, if it binds it will be hell to get off. To be honest the hub, drive flange & bearing system on the defender I find very reliable user friendly, and the bonus is I can change a bearing in a car park or on the side the road. I never have needed to do that yet, but is good to know. My only issue is the adjustment nut locking washers have too much slack in them and the bearing adjusting nuts can back off sightly. Since changed to oil filled hubs about 60,000 kms ago, I have not changed a single hub bearing, Only routine adjustments , I think i changed one oil seal in that time.

[jackdef90]

Well, As usual small questions turn into large discussions ha :D
With the stock drive flanges I don't really see those little black rubber caps holding in or forcing any grease down the splines.
I'm going to purchase a set of hd flanges for front and rear, although it seems most people only change the rear set? Am I wasting my money purchasing them for the front?

Jim, after hearing what you write about mags , Will the rear flanges threaded caps fit with the stock 16" alloys fitted to 2.4 Pumas?

Thanks

[simmo]

with the stock drive flanges I don't really see those little black rubber caps holding in or forcing any grease down the splines.


It worked for me for and the previous owner for 20 years, so should it be OK. It doesn't have to pump it through, it just has to make the grease available, the axles and hubs do the rest.:)

[PAT303]

Well, As usual small questions turn into large discussions ha :D
With the stock drive flanges I don't really see those little black rubber caps holding in or forcing any grease down the splines.
I'm going to purchase a set of hd flanges for front and rear, although it seems most people only change the rear set? Am I wasting my money purchasing them for the front?

Jim, after hearing what you write about mags , Will the rear flanges threaded caps fit with the stock 16" alloys fitted to 2.4 Pumas?

Thanks

Mine has sawtooth alloys and they go on as normal. Pat

[DazzaTD5]

I use the HTE branded "heavy duty axle" sets or if the axles are still in good condition, such as on a new Defender puma (or TDCi if we want to be more Ford like) just replace the drive flanges with, again HTE branded flanges, standard width. (I'm not pushing any particular brand as long as its good quality).

*The screw on cap allows the splines to be greased as a normal service item (every 10,000kms).
*Standard width HTE drive flanges fit under the Land Rover alloy wheel (plastic centre cap), this is a great idea on brand new Defenders (as the above then applies).
*A small hole drilled in the outer edge of the plastic cap (small for a oring pick) will allow easy removal of the plastic cap, wont really be noticed, stops the need to remove with a screw driver that might slip and scratch the wheel.
*if upgrading to complete HTE branded drive flanges and axles (HTE rear axles), machining the cap down a few mm (on the threaded outer end) allows the plastic centre cap to fit.
*A spline such as on a axle, if not lubed is always going to wear out.
*Saying that, the "puma" Defenders seem more prone to wear than the "TD5" Defenders.

While I havent tried them, I'm sure the Ashcroft heavy duty axles, drive flanges would also be a good bit of gear.

Regards
Daz

[jimr1]

Well, As usual small questions turn into large discussions ha :D
With the stock drive flanges I don't really see those little black rubber caps holding in or forcing any grease down the splines.
I'm going to purchase a set of hd flanges for front and rear, although it seems most people only change the rear set? Am I wasting my money purchasing them for the front?

Jim, after hearing what you write about mags , Will the rear flanges threaded caps fit with the stock 16" alloys fitted to 2.4 Pumas?

Thanks
Hi Jack I agree about the discussion ,lol.. I'm not sure about the Puma wheels , Pat has one and Say's they are ok. I have an old 110 county , that has maxi drive axles and flanges , on the rear , they are oil feed ! This old truck has down huge Km. and the flanges are still working , but It has steel offset wheels that have a big hole in the centre . Then I have a 110 td5 with H.D. on the rear are front . There greased . The wheels are the older deep rim alloys , and the flange nuts , are Ok on the front , so the centre still fits . The rear is a little more proud , so the wheel center doesn't fit . This post interests me because I have a new Defender on order , so I also would like to know , as there have been some small changes . to wheels . I've noticed they have a large plastic center . Like you I will be looking at changing over to heaver after market flanges . So I am enjoying all your replies !!..Jm :)

[DazzaTD5]

Well, As usual small questions turn into large discussions ha :D
With the stock drive flanges I don't really see those little black rubber caps holding in or forcing any grease down the splines.
I'm going to purchase a set of hd flanges for front and rear, although it seems most people only change the rear set? Am I wasting my money purchasing them for the front?

Jim, after hearing what you write about mags , Will the rear flanges threaded caps fit with the stock 16" alloys fitted to 2.4 Pumas?

Thanks

As mentioned...
*if upgrading to complete HTE branded drive flanges and axles (HTE rear axles), machining the cap down a few mm (on the threaded outer end) allows the plastic centre cap to fit.

*So machining the rear caps as the rear are a wider width drive flange (longer splines) this allows the plastic cap to fit.
*Fronts if only changing the drive flange is a standard width drive flange (so the plastic cap fits, no mods)
*If upgrading to heavy duty drive flanges and keeping standard axles, then using the standard width drive flange, then the plastic cap fits (front & rear)
I only recommend this upgrade on brand new Defenders (as in there is no wear on the flanges/axles yet).

As already mentioned I only know this for the HTE brand heavy duty axles/drive flanges.

Regards
Daz

[jackdef90]

Daz,
Iam not upgrading my axles, sticking with standard ones, as I don't think it's necessary with the size tyres that I run and mods on my vehicle.
However I do want to upgrade the drive flanges,
why would you only recommend this mod to new defenders? , mine is a 2010 90 with about 75000 kms on it, is there some reason upgraded drive flanges shouldn't go on axles that aren't brand new?

[DazzaTD5]

Daz,
Iam not upgrading my axles, sticking with standard ones, as I don't think it's necessary with the size tyres that I run and mods on my vehicle.
However I do want to upgrade the drive flanges,
why would you only recommend this mod to new defenders? , mine is a 2010 90 with about 75000 kms on it, is there some reason upgraded drive flanges shouldn't go on axles that aren't brand new?

Well I've had in Defender (puma) with as little as 70,000km's and the axles/flanges are well flogged out already (I have mentioned this in another post (puma upgrades I think)).

Before you buy, unbolt one (or both) drive flanges, slide out the axle/drive flange assembly, get it on a bench and see how much wear is in it all. You may be surprised how much wear there is. Remove the circlip clean both splines up and see if the axles are showing wear.

Fitting a new drive flange to an axle with wear on the splines means you have a reduced surface area between the two spline (as in the splines are only touching in part).

So basically, if the axles arent showing any signs of wear, then yes fit the after market drive flanges.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

With reference to the axles and drive flanges on Defender puma models, I've had this stuck in my brain and have been checking out every Defender puma model that comes through my door, as in remove one axle and drive flange to inspect.

Two new models with 10,000km (there first service) BOTH had free play on the splines between the axle and drive flange. As I consider 10,000km's to be nothing more than a run around the block, this free play must be as it comes from the factory (tell me otherwise?). Additionally there was already signs of some wear.

One with 30,000km - Significant wear on both the axle spline and the drive flange, there was actually gritty fines on the inside of the flange and the inner hub (I can only think this may work into the bearings).

two others with 70,000km, 100,000km - As expected worn out and both suffered the "clunk clunk" during shifting.

The fronts on all dont seem to suffer the same fate with regards to wear, but the free play is still there. Personally I think this is a set backwards with regards to quality when compared to the previous model TD5, for an otherwise great vehicle.

Regards
Daz

[simmo]

Has anyone tried removing the flanges every 10 K an cleaning them and greasing them with moly grease?
Dazza is right, there is some free pay when the drive flanges are new but not much. My car was not converted to oil filled hubs until after 130,000 Kms, my axles/drive flanges front and rear were still in good condition. But I used to keep the splines and rive flanges clean & lubricated by moly grease in the little rubber cap.

If you can feel grittiness on the splines the damage is already in progress. The grease will work into the splines and if you regularly top up the little rubber cap, you can see it on the inside of the axle when you remove the flange to adjust the bearing. I still have my original grease lubed rear axles and drive flanges in the shed, they look ready for another 130,000 kms.

It's possible the quality of the axles & drive flanges is lower on the modern defenders and that might be part of the problem, but if you see dry flanges & dusty splines and don't act, the subsequent damage can't be blamed on poor materials.
I figure you could remove all four drive flanges , clean them and the axle splines, ( an old tooth brush works well), grease and refit in 2 hours. After that every 5000 kms put a few cc s of moly grease in each rubber cap. Maybe clean and inspect again after 10,000 kms to see how well it's working. I's got to be worth a go, if it can save axle and flange replacement. :) cheers simmo

[PAT303]

Just unscrew the caps and have a look,you'll see the amount of grease in the splines. Pat