Fraser Island air bag. ..

[benji]

Just got back last night. Had a ripper run, got bogged, watched others get bogged, watched the kids have a ball and didn't drown anyone in lake mackenzie.

The only issues we had were a blown fuse, and a gen 3 airbag that slipped out from under the crimp ring (and I got laughed at for taking spare airsprings).

Changed the spring at camp, and picked up a newy (oe though) at british offroad on the sunshine coast as my spare airbag is 288, 000k old and looks like it.

Can't upload photos atm.




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[Pete38]

Not good to hear about you popping a gen 3, but good to hear you carry spare. I also carry a spare front and rear stock bag for that just in case moment. Sure beats the bump stops.

So any idea why the gen 3 busted out? Touch wood, but mine have treated me well and I've flexed them a lot with the extended shocks.

[Pete38]

Ahh just re-read your post. Slipped out of the ring. So over extended I guess. But hasn't happened before for you huh

[Hoges]

Had an argument last year when the local tyre bloke wanted to raise the vehicle on a 2 post ...a.) it is deemed as unsafe by LR and b.) although I have OE airbags, the prospect of replacing a popping a bag by over extension was not on my to-do list for the day...
I have wondered about retention cables to limit articulation ... :wasntme:

[Pete38]

Wouldn't lifting a wheel off road be the same as lifting on a two post hoist though seeing the shocks limit it? Except only wheel at once.

I understand the eas needs to be turned off to stop the air being let out of the bags (the eas trying to lower it) and crimping/folding the bag when lowered.

I know there's cases of over extension of gen 3's in unexpected situations, Benji above and Keith (on stock shocks and no spacers at the time) as well, but what I don't understand is how I haven't had a problem with the extended shocks (+ 3 inch extension at the bags) andonly 1 inch spacers under the bags. It obviously happens, just curious how it's possible without a faulty crimp ring or something.

[Keithy P38]

I agree with you Pete, seems too good to be true!

Was it a right rear that you popped benji?

Cheers
Keithy

[benji]

Actually it was Kiethy! Coincidence. ..? I think it was pulled out on the rear of the bag. . .

With my lift (1" springs blocks too) the rear bags have 1" further to go before they reach Arnotts maximum specified length, so it's a safe setup.

I got hopelessly stuck (VERY different to bring bogged!) that morning and the rear right was stretched out a bit, but definately not all the way.

However, travelling over those sandy tracks you do top out the rear shocks occasionally, but they're still under their maximum. ...

Looking at the this morning I noticed the crimp ring has sliped down hard against the bottom piston.... I'm yet to check the other springs.





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[Keithy P38]

Its a Gen III thing to pop right hand rears... All the ones I've seen/heard have been right rear.

Email arnotts, they should replace it F.O.C. Maybe don't mention the lift though!

Cheers
Keithy

[glenhendry]

My ripped OEM air spring was right rear too!!

The black plastic D shaped do well at the bottom that hold the retaining clip snapped off the piston.

[DT-P38]

And my Gen 2 that let go was right rear as well.

I am putting a set of gen 3 under it next but going to try the Chinese copy bags after that if I have more issues. I don't think any of them should actually let go - ever. Even if you are hanging the whole bloody diff in the air.

They can support the weight of the car from above at varying levels of compression... they should be able to carry a half share of diff.

[Scouse]

Even if you are hanging the whole bloody diff in the air. I think the problem might arise under articulation. When one wheel is hanging down with the opposite stuffed into the wheel arch, the base of the airbag will be at the same angle as the diff/axle whereas the top will still be in line with the car.


I wonder if it's this stretching force on one side of the bag that's just enough for it to slip out of the crimp ring?

[Keithy P38]

In my case, the outer edge of the bellow had torn slightly as it pulled out of the crimp ring.

Not sure if it was pulling force or air pressure that caused the bellow and piston to separate.

Cheers
Keithy

[benji]

On a standard setup and my setup, the below is still folded over the crimp ring at full articulation, and when both shocks are topped out, so there is no pulling of the bladder against the grip of the crimp ring.
In fact, yesterday I drove the car so the left rear was fully drooped and I could push the bottom section of the below in with my thumb, so there's not a lot of pressure on it at full droop.

When I got the bags, the crimp ring was sitting off the step in the piston by about 3mm, there is now no gap...wether this is a contributing factor or not I'm not sure, as the left rear has done the same thing but it 'seems' well crimped still, as pulling the bag against the ring at full droop didn't pull it out.

I can certainly understand why is slipped down though, as the entire weight on the spring is supported by that crimp ring.

Anyway, I sent off the email yesterday, so am awaiting their response.

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[DT-P38]

I think the problem might arise under articulation. When one wheel is hanging down with the opposite stuffed into the wheel arch, the base of the airbag will be at the same angle as the diff/axle whereas the top will still be in line with the car.


I wonder if it's this stretching force on one side of the bag that's just enough for it to slip out of the crimp ring?

Yep, I can see and understand the how... it is the WHY that I don't get.

They are a bloody expensive upgrade that fails repeatedly. NOT good enough in my opinion.

The std Dunlop bags are more hardy than the "deluxe" Arnott option that a (usually) credible manufacturer charges 200-300% more for. They just shouldn't fail in this way... they should be able to handle whatever stresses we put them under... in all directions.

I reckon the only "acceptable fails" I would give a bag are: old age, or a puncture. Maybe I am being too harsh, but the last quote I got for a replacement rear pair was $1K either from Arnott or the local distributor. For that sort of money, they should be pretty well bullet-proof and compete VERY well with steel springs and other types of bags (in both price and performance).

But that's really not the feeling I get... I get the feeling of being stitched up on a dodgy bit of kit.

[Keithy P38]

I echo your sentiments Dave. For such an expensive product - comparable to coil springs on individual price, they certainly don't handle what even a standard offering P38 can dish out when driven in "average" 4wd scenarios.

The lifetime guarantee does appeal (and I've made use of it), but I'm sure there would come a point to which they would deem the "lifetime" of the spring to have expired.

I never did look at a standard Dunlop spring at full droop to examine stretch characteristics, but I believe that the ability to be re-seated makes OEM spring better for the average P38er. This is why my spares are OEM and not Arnotts.

How would they survive a 2" lift I wonder?

Cheers
Keithy

[DT-P38]

The lifetime guarantee also has its "fine print" and is now being promoted as a ltd guarantee.

I know PaulP38a of the old Hardrange was well against std bags and lift but not sure that the set up was ever actually "put to task".

I will be going the copies next time around but might be able to hit up one of the good mate P38 wreckers down here for a set of 2nd hand bags to take on an "hyper extension" (lifted pig) test run one day. :angel:

[benji]

Credit where it's due though, not a single question asked - I'll be mailing off the bag to them today and they'll send me out a new one.

I agree it shouldn't happen (except for a broken shocker or an incorrect setup), however there's a lot of these bags out there that don't have an issue, so that says it's quality control rather than a design fault.

I learnt long ago that with eas, it's not if it goes wrong, but when it goes wrong. I'd never get rid of it though. .....

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[benji]

Just got an email; they're sending out another one free of charge.

Time will tell, but i can't see any further issues.

It'd be hard to guage, however, I wonder if those with adjustable panhard rods will have any issues with the right rear bag...


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[mtb_gary]

Benji, I doubt the adjustable panhard rod would cause or prevent the bag problem. From memory I only extended the panhard rod length by around 10-15mm to align the rear springs half way between highway and normal. It was more to stop the rubbing of the mud tyres at full articulation.

Gary