advice needed - OFFROAD SUSP SETUP

[rick79]

Calling ALL defender owners who have modded their suspension in aid of better offroad ability!

Im about to get some 35" tyres for my 95 defender 110 - (315/75/16)
my dilema is the suspension setup! Ill give a rundown on current setup so you get an idea of what might or might not work...and see if im on the right track

CURRENT- 265/75/16 BFG on 16 Dynamic rims -25offset. Std legnth Terrafirma shocks on +2" HD King springs (front has sagged 1"), Std Axles, HD Terrafirma Drive Flanges all round, ARB rear Air Locker, Std Gaurds.
- In terms of weight, Truck has Bullbar, winch, Side steps/scrub bars, Full legnth Alu Roofrack, rear drawer system.

PLANNED-
35" BFG mud terrain (315/75/16) equiv to 35/12.5/16
HiTough rear axles
Want to keep std blk gaurds if i can (happy to trim if nessesary)

UNSURE ABOUT- Obiously I want to upgrade to suspension for as much offroad prowess as i can for the money i have left over (approx $1000)

Ideally Id like a 3" lift...but from what ive been reading, I dont think i can afford to lift it this much because of all the additional parts req for over 2" lift. Pleas correct me if im wrong?!

...SO, keeping in mind my suspesion budget ($1000), i see that paddocks has Procomp ES9000 +4" shocks for 128pound for a set of 4, And then mabee some Dobinsons +2" coils from here in Oz (approx $440set of 4). And then some +50mm bumpstop spacers as well (i should be able to make these).
Later down the track would come Cranked Rear Arms (If these would make an improvement to articulation with the above setup?)

OTHER QUESTIONS- I dont want to go down the dislocation path, so would i need retainers with the +4" shocks with +2" springs?

Would +2" Flexycoils from suspensionstuff.com be a better option than Dobinsons?

Can anyone vouch that this would be an ok setup, or that it would even work?

Am i better off going with Terrafirma or other =4" or +5" shocks? Or another brand coil?

Am i correct to assume i wont need raised suspenstion mounts?

TOTALLY OPEN TO ANY SUGESTIONS AND HELP!
I just want the best offroad ability i can get for my money :twisted:

[isuzutoo-eh]

First up-forget the idea that a lift means flex. It doesn't. Initially, shock length is the limit, then after that is bush binding.

I'd start with Gwyn Lewis raised upper shock mounts and shocks to match.
Pro-Comp shocks are pretty mediocre. Not as good as Terrafirma, which aren't as good as most other brands... but what you pay is what you get. Old Man Emu or Amada Extreme are two options for long travel shocks that mates have and are pleased with.

Hose clamps will hold your coils in!

[rick79]

First up-forget the idea that a lift means flex. It doesn't. Initially, shock length is the limit, then after that is bush binding.

I'd start with Gwyn Lewis raised upper shock mounts and shocks to match.
Pro-Comp shocks are pretty mediocre. Not as good as Terrafirma, which aren't as good as most other brands... but what you pay is what you get. Old Man Emu or Amada Extreme are two options for long travel shocks that mates have and are pleased with.

Hose clamps will hold your coils in!

cheers mate,

yeah i figured lift dosnt equal flex...thats why i was thinking +4" shocks.
Dose +2" lift with +4" shocks = 2"more articulation over a stock std setup theoretically? will bushes be limiting this at all...or is this for HUGE travel setups?

with the gwyn lewis raised mounts...which legnth shock would i be after?

[isuzutoo-eh]

'Lift', as a spring based concept, is merely moving the static position of the body higher in relation to the ground (well, axles really).
+4" shocks should indeed give 4 inches more travel in total, if you have the raised shock mounts then up travel will be the same as stock (same bump stops) but increased down travel. Where the bumpstops are extended is where up travel is reduced, usually a symptom of shock bodies too long to fit the mount locations.


Shocks to match the Gwyn Lewis/Terrafirma/D44 gear are usually marketed as +5", that is they have a 5" longer stroke than stock. This means the body of the shock should be 2.5" longer than stock, but the stock have a bit of a conservative side, so +2" towers are enough.

The bushes shouldn't quite bind with +5" shocks, otherwise those shocks wouldn't be a common upgrade, you'd be buying +4" or similar if the bushes were binding at +5".
Much more though and the bushes will be the limiting factor. Then you can start learning about Superior's Superflex Arms and similar...

[rick79]

'Lift', as a spring based concept, is merely moving the static position of the body higher in relation to the ground (well, axles really).
+4" shocks should indeed give 4 inches more travel in total, if you have the raised shock mounts then up travel will be the same as stock (same bump stops) but increased down travel. Where the bumpstops are extended is where up travel is reduced, usually a symptom of shock bodies too long to fit the mount locations.


Shocks to match the Gwyn Lewis/Terrafirma/D44 gear are usually marketed as +5", that is they have a 5" longer stroke than stock. This means the body of the shock should be 2.5" longer than stock, but the stock have a bit of a conservative side, so +2" towers are enough.

The bushes shouldn't quite bind with +5" shocks, otherwise those shocks wouldn't be a common upgrade, you'd be buying +4" or similar if the bushes were binding at +5".
Much more though and the bushes will be the limiting factor. Then you can start learning about Superior's Superflex Arms and similar...

cool, so you suggestions are?
-Gwyn Lewis/Terrafirma/D44 +5" shocks
+2" turrets,
+2" springs
-hose clamp springs to retain

what about the rear shock monts with +5' shocks?

[rick79]

so procomp +4" would or wouldnt need 2" raised turrets to retyain stock bumpstops?

+5" shocks will need the same to retain the stock bumpstops?

with 35" tyres what would be better...aised turrets, to retain stock bumpstops and 'tuck'...OR std turrets and +2" bumpstops?

the turrets make sence to me...only thing that worries me is 35" tyres with stock flares, and of course the incresing cost of the setup

[isuzutoo-eh]

cool, so you suggestions are?
-Gwyn Lewis/Terrafirma/D44 +5" shocks
+2" turrets,
+2" springs
-hose clamp springs to retain

what about the rear shock monts with +5' shocks?

Gwyn Lewis/TF/Devon 4x4 make the raised shock mounts, both front and rear. I believe Gwyn Lewis was the first to manufacture them, and thus gets my respect and dollars. He makes a better quality though not so shinybling product than TF anyway.

Regarding the pro-comps, you need to know the closed length of the shocks and then compare to the space available between your current mounts, with 2" added for the towers/mounts. Remembering that a dynamic cross axle situation will give potentially 50% compression to the bump stops, whilst a driveway flex session won't compress them at all.

Regarding tyres and flares, that's more to do with the tyre width and rim offset than suspension choices-unless you extend the bump stops so far that the tyre can't touch the flares at all! I haven't done the calcs to see what widths work with standard flares for 35s, but my 255/85/16s rub with zero offset 7" rims, whilst 130/wolf rims with slight positive offset should clear comfortably.

Finally, this is only my opinion, hopefully others will come along and lend their experience to your thread too.

[Dopey]

so procomp +4" would or wouldnt need 2" raised turrets to retyain stock bumpstops?

+5" shocks will need the same to retain the stock bumpstops?

with 35" tyres what would be better...aised turrets, to retain stock bumpstops and 'tuck'...OR std turrets and +2" bumpstops?

the turrets make sence to me...only thing that worries me is 35" tyres with stock flares, and of course the incresing cost of the setup

This picture shows a 315/75R16 KM2 mounted on a 16 X 8 wheel with Negative 25mm offset and standard flares.

Nb: most 315/75R16 are nothing near 35" most are just over 34".
I would suggest doing something about your gearing before fitting these tyres.

Regards,
Mike.

If you are considering flares, flatdog make the best ones I have seen and used.

[Devomorris]

I've got TF rear shock mounts with their 5 inch shocks on my 90 but only running 33 extremes. Definitely need some off set on the rims as even my 265/75/16 mt rub on the spring mount with a little flex. Checked out other defenders running 35s and there's plenty of room under the wheel arch but you'll need to lose the standard flares and go for after market jobs.....not cheap! I'm contemplating 35s to as I'm about the only one running 33s over here in Borneo and the majority have at least 36 or larger! My diff guards cope a hiding but at least it's only mud! On the front I've got +2 inch TF sport with 2 inch king springs.....the spring just stays located with full travel of shock. The rear, even with dislocation cones popped out on one audacious section.
My mate was running the TF +5 inch on his 110 and thought them too soft. They're ok on my 90 and also on a mates disco 1. In my opinion , since you have a diff lock, a 2 inch lift with matched springs to shocks will work both well on the road and off. Mentioned on a previous post that the king spring/koni set up i had worked very well. Anything over 2 inches and on road performance is compromised. It would appear that companies won't air freight, gas shocks any more, even had the rear upper tail gate strut refused, but fortunately in Aust there's a maze of choice!

[MLD]

to add to Mark's info: you wanted retained coils. I have Dobinson HD 2" lift coils and the 2 models they make are 410mm and 420mm free length, which is the same as the LR free length. The lift comes from a thicker wire diameter resisting compression. You will get considerable coil separation with a +4" and even more with the +5" longer shock. Look at the photo in my build thread. That is a HD Dobinson coil. I think King coils use the same theory, thicker diameter wire to give lift.

Pretty much any shock designed for a LandCruiser 80 series 4" lift will be the approximate shock for the Gwyn Lewis kit.

Some people are finding that UK sellers won't post shocks because of the pressurised canister.

Suspension Stuff AFAIA have Dobinson make their coils. Robinson make a flexi coil but that will give you a 3" lift up front and 2.5" lift in the rear. It will solve your coil separation problem.

with longer travel you have more stress on the trailing arm bushes. Expect to be replacing them regular.

you will fit a 35" tyre in the front with only a 2" lift. i had 40mm lift in mine with a 35".

a $1,000 budget is ambitious. I dropped multiples of that on my set up.

MLD

[emp]

...Suspension Stuff AFAIA have Dobinson make their coils. Dobinson make a flexi coil but that will give you a 3" lift up front and 2.5" lift in the rear. It will solve your coil separation problem....
MLD

any idea of the part number on these? ive been searching everywhere but no luck

[MLD]

Suspension Stuff Ref
front - C70-296VT - 16mm wire, 500mm free length, 345mm compressed
rear C70-297VT - 20mm wire, 530mm free, 405mm compressed

I rang Dobinson and the above reference was no longer on offer (don't make them any more). Which may mean SS, contrary to my earlier statement, have gone elsewhere or the part ref is no longer in use and the below is the new coil ref for the comparable flexi coil.

Dobinson's ref (marketed as a +3" flexi coil).
front - C51-198V - FL 17mm wire, 460mm free, 350mm compressed - FR 17.5 wire, 475mm free, 360mm compressed (approx +4" lift)
rear - C51-199V - 19.5mm wire, 540mm free, 410mm compressed (approx +2" lift)

Both SS and Dobinsons are variable front and rear. Compressed height will vary with your set up and weight. The measurements were taken the day after fitting and will settle down. My truck is a Puma with steel bar and winch. The rear has a HD steel tray, steel canopy and a 35" spare tyre, tool box with tools/spares weighing in about 100kg. I estimate about 500kg constant load.

MLD

[MR LR]

I'm going to suggest that your budget doesn't support the changes to 35's...

To do it all properly, including lockers as upgraded diffs, gears, axles, CV's, brakes, etc. There is not much change out of 8k, I ran the numbers when exchange rates weren't what they are, I have since abandoned the idea as I felt it was a waste of money, I can do better than HD Rover stuff with 8k... And I decided to blow the money skiing so have to save up again :p

To simply say "I want 35's, I can buy the tyres and have a thousand bucks to spend on other 'stuff'" is not the right way to go about it.

First off get your car into a better running condition, throw all the terrafirma stuff in the bin (where it belongs). Then spend some money on decent suspension (the money you would have otherwise spent on tyres). THEN save up again for the tyres and diff gears. Fit them, and either upgrade the driveline in one hit, or as you break it (which you will).

My car's run Bilstein and Koni shocks, I had Terrafirma +5's in the Range Rover but they were unbearable. Either of these brands are about the best you'll get. Utilising shocks from other makes/models will give you a broader range to choose from, Land Cruiser shocks are a good option. But don't cheap out on shocks or it'll drive like a POS.

Depending on your use, I'd either go with Kings/Dobinsons and run retainers, or if it is just a toy, SS flexy coils are pretty darn cool :D

[Anth]

I've been having an internal dilemma about whether to lift (+2inch) or just leave my disco 1 at standard height.

I've basically decided to leave it standard height and I'll replace the existing ome springs and shocks with standard height medium load springs and shocks sometime in the next year or two. I dont intend on doing extreme offroading in it at this stage.

The argument against lifting more than +2/bigger tyres - requirement for changing diff ratios, correcting the changed steering geometry, upgrading driveline components to deal with the different angles and larger forces on it associated with big lifts and bigger tyres etc etc - what MR. LR said! My general feeling is that if the mod gives a small amount of improved clearance, at the expense of general reliability of components, think about a less drastic lift option.

Then again - the defender has some tougher components throughout than a disco, so will probably cope better with lift/tyre mods. Maybe I'd lift my landy if it was a defender and not a disco!