Rotating recovery points. Comparison and pricing.

[clubagreenie]

Following on for the information of others.

RUD point.

20mm $230-ea
24mm $330-ea both +GST

RUD VWBG Swivel Ring Bolt - Nobles | Lifting and Rigging Suppliers (http://www.nobles.com.au/Products/Lifting-Rigging/Lifting-Lashing-Points/RUD-VWBG-Swivel-Ring-Bolt)

http://www.nobles.com.au/getattachment/Products/Lifting-Rigging/Lifting-Lashing-Points/RUD-VWBG-Swivel-Ring-Bolt/rud-vwbgv-ring.jpg.aspx

The Beaver points do not have a bearing but are incredibly smooth, even next to the RUD units.

20mm $90- ea
24mm $100- ea both + GST.

The PWB units are huge, waiting on pricing.

[Mick_Marsh]

Dare I ask, what magnitude of load would be put on those points? It seems to me these points are rated for lifting purposes. Should one apply a factor to the SWL and WLL when used in a recovery situation?

Also, I assume the ratings displayed are for predominately vertical lifting. What would be the effect with angular lifting be? I have seen a few recoveries where it was not possible to pull the vehicle straight out.

[clubagreenie]

The 24mm are rated for WLL 4tonne, lifting, so thats a 5:1 safety factor and MBS is still greater than WLL. So 20t design essentially downgraded for wear, tear & numpty factor.

[Tombie]

Excellent question Mick...

With the 5:1 safety factor - I have run the 24mm VLBG versions which gives me 4t WLL = 20t failure. With a 3.2t shackle = 16t and using 2 mounts and a bridle (12t breaking strain) and an 8t snatch strap - this means the strap will let go long before any metal will start flying about.

I use the VLBG version because they dont rattle when not in use..
You can see the working angles in the image (and they self align)
http://www.nobles.com.au/getattachment/Products/Lifting-Rigging/Lifting-Lashing-Points/RUD-VLBG-Load-Ring/rud-vlbg-load-bolt.jpg'maxsidesize=700


Whilst we are at it... Some data on using a shackle side loaded... (knew I had it in a manual somewhere)

Using a shackle with the commonly available recovery points that have been the topic of much debate in recent times.... :angel:

IF a shackle is used at a side loaded angle the following is to be taken into account:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=93093&stc=1&d=1429855553

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=93094&stc=1&d=1429855568http://


So, what does it all translate to?

With a 3.2t shackle you have 16t before yield.
With a 4.7t shackle you have 23.5t before yield.

At 45 degrees you have a reduction of 30% SWL
a 3.2t shackle becomes a 2.24t shackle with yield at 11.2t
a 4.7t shackle becomes a 3.29t shackle with yield at 16.45t

Lets put it into practice:
Using an appropriate sling (bridle) of sufficient length to maintain angles under 45 degrees, you would be wise to consider using 4.7t shackles to attach to your recovery points (for the additional rating) - although 3.7t shackles are still rating higher than the 8,000kg (fail load) snatch strap they are inline with...


Now for an example of where horizontal / vertical alignment goes out the door...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/04/286.jpg
Guess which way the shackle would be loading!!!

[Blknight.aus]

Dare I ask, what magnitude of load would be put on those points? It seems to me these points are rated for lifting purposes. Should one apply a factor to the SWL and WLL when used in a recovery situation?

Also, I assume the ratings displayed are for predominately vertical lifting. What would be the effect with angular lifting be? I have seen a few recoveries where it was not possible to pull the vehicle straight out.

in the lifting world ideally you use chains of the same rate as thelifting point, as you work down SWL by means of the angle on the chain you're automatically taking the degrade on the point into account.

the last time I was selecting lifting fittings for fitment to a container the available lifting points had a chart that indicbated the angles you could use them at as a simple black and whie go/no go diagram, if you were in the white you could putt your max rate on them, if you were in the black you werent to use that fitting.

a good example of this is in disco muppets post here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/recovery/218697-these-best-cheapest-recovery-point-ever-designed-3.html#post2351371) the ones on the white disco i remember as having a full 180 degree loading arc within a full 360 degree rotation. the ones as fitted to the front of lara had about a 60 degree arc (30 degrees either side of perpendicular) and a full 360 degree rotation.

edit

but for the want of a little patients on my behalf..
tombies previous post has a colour diagram of what I was talking about for the white disco points...

and the diagram of the shackle highlights what I was saying about the lifting point derating with the chain angle. Imagine 2 shackles used to hold a bridle strap to the front of the vehicle. IF the chain and the shackles had the same SWL as the angle used in the formula went up the calculated WLL for the chain would go down. The derate has already taken the angle on the liting point (in this case the shackle) into account. This is one o the diferences between the lifting orld and the recovery world.
in the recovery world its easy to side load a single shackle. Thats harder to do in the lifting world as gravity tends to make everything hang in a nice line when you only have a single lifting point

[Mick_Marsh]

Thanks, Tombie, just the information I was after.

Last few questions.
Do all snatch straps snap at 8t or can you get them at different ratings?
Assuming the vehicles are about 4t, what sort of force would typically be on a snatch strap? 1.5 times? 2 times?

[rathgar]

Snatch straps are available in a range of sizes with 8000 and 11000 being common but some brands go up to 16000.

I just looked at the Just Straps website and they also give a Recovery Load Limit.

[MR LR]

Thanks, Tombie, just the information I was after.

Last few questions.
Do all snatch straps snap at 8t or can you get them at different ratings?
Assuming the vehicles are about 4t, what sort of force would typically be on a snatch strap? 1.5 times? 2 times?
Snatch straps come in all different sizes, I have 11000kg straps in the Disco/RR/Cruiser, and on the farm I have a 40t strap for pulling out the header with the New Holland.

I have read that a general rule is 3x the mass of the vehicle, but it varies with each strap and it's elasticity.

[rathgar]

I think the thing with a snatch strap, as opposed to a tow or winch extension strap, is to not go over the top with rating or you loose the benefit of the elasticity. And probably induce all sorts of shock loads to other fittings in the recovery set up.

[rathgar]

Tal about my piecemeal responses - anyway,

This is interesting taken from Just Staps website

"NEW MANDATORY SAFETY STANDARD It is recommended that the minimum breaking strength of the strap should be between 2 and 3 times the vehicle's gross vehicle mass (GVM) and the strap must be suited to the (GVM) of the lighter of the two vehicles used in the recovery process.Please click on Snatch Strap Industry Guidelines 2008 for full details. "

I have no afiliation with them just an easy source of info.

[Mick_Marsh]

Tal about my piecemeal responses
That's not a problem.
It does show we're starting to think.

[rathgar]

Think, maybe but spell correctly not yet.

[Mick_Marsh]

Think, maybe but spell correctly not yet.
That is what Ron is for.

[Tombie]

Tal about my piecemeal responses - anyway,

This is interesting taken from Just Staps website

"NEW MANDATORY SAFETY STANDARD It is recommended that the minimum breaking strength of the strap should be between 2 and 3 times the vehicle's gross vehicle mass (GVM) and the strap must be suited to the (GVM) of the lighter of the two vehicles used in the recovery process.Please click on Snatch Strap Industry Guidelines 2008 for full details. (https://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch%20Straps%20Industry%20Guidelines%20Final%20 March%2008%20Amended%20pdf.pdf) "

I have no afiliation with them just an easy source of info.
(https://www.juststraps.com.au/pdf/Snatch%20Straps%20Industry%20Guidelines%20Final%20 March%2008%20Amended%20pdf.pdf)


And there you go!

1x 8,000kg snatch strap for almost any LR :)

[Tombie]

Personally I prefer to use the 8,000kg straps on most 4wds. Makes the strap the fuse in the connection.

A failed strap makes a whip, metal makes a missile.

[pete]

Probably a stupid question, I have a ARB deluxe winch bar on my disco2 if I want to fit these rings as recovery points where abouts would the optimal mounting points be on my bar? Thanks in advance.
Pete

[Tombie]

Pete, I will be fitting a set to my lads D2 in coming weeks.. I will take some photos... And post here...

[pete]

Thanks that would be great.
Pete

[C00P]

Probably a stupid question, I have a ARB deluxe winch bar on my disco2 if I want to fit these rings as recovery points where abouts would the optimal mounting points be on my bar? Thanks in advance.
Pete

Are the attach points between the bar and the vehicle good enough? I've seen a collection of bars (some with reputable brands) that have been ripped off the front of vehicles by snatch recoveries. Might be worth checking...

Coop

[Tombie]

Have had these mounted that way in the past.

An ARB for example requires 15t of force to deform the crush cans...

[Blknight.aus]

Probably a stupid question, I have a ARB deluxe winch bar on my disco2 if I want to fit these rings as recovery points where abouts would the optimal mounting points be on my bar? Thanks in advance.
Pete

IF they havent changed the design (and Im thinking about the right bar) from the last one I did install work on, theres a voidspace in front of the crushcan area, just in board of the plate that angles back. it puts the loadpoints perfectly in line with the chassis rail.

you have to demound the bar to get into it and I reccomend that you cut up at least a 6mm thick plate with nicely curved and chamfered edges to act as a backing and support plate for the mount.

[clubagreenie]

The original RRC ARB bar had eyebolts fitted inline with the chassis. They were 4mm with a 3mm additional plate behind welded in. They were (IMO) vastly underrated only being capable of fitting a 3T shackle and rated to 1.25T ea.

As a comparison though a 2T eyebolt loaded to 20T only stretches 7mm (plastic deformation).

[AndyG]

At the risk of speaking up and showing my ignorance, shock load is the danger, so easy easy when taking up the load.

[donh54]

Tal about my piecemeal responses - anyway,

This is interesting taken from Just Staps website

"NEW MANDATORY SAFETY STANDARD It is recommended that the minimum breaking strength of the .... etc

Pardon me for being pedantic, but how can something mandatory be recommended? Shouldn't it read "required "

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[clubagreenie]

At the risk of speaking up and showing my ignorance, shock load is the danger, so easy easy when taking up the load.

The issue is the (mis)use of snatch straps. I am not at all a proponent of them, never use them and will never be recovered by one. I'll winch and catch up thanks.

[Eevo]

The issue is the (mis)use of snatch straps. I am not at all a proponent of them, never use them and will never be recovered by one. I'll winch and catch up thanks.

i agree snatch snaps can be misused but there are times when winching simply wont do.

[clubagreenie]

Yet to find it. But soon to have one at each end it'll be even less of an issue.

[Blknight.aus]

i agree snatch snaps can be misused but there are times when winching simply wont do.

yep, most typically if your a bogan rev head toyota driver who simply cant fathom that oversized lifted unstable and non roadworthy wheel spining flying debry and valve bouncing/governror riding are not mandatory for recovery work.

[MR LR]

I think snatch straps are fantastic things, but I know how to use them and accept the risk...

I've had a 40t strap let go and nothing happened because it was set up correctly and had a dampener on it, plus no one was standing within 1.5x the radius of the strap... it practically dropped to the ground. I've had more dramatic failures with drag chains behind tractors.

I've even used one on an industrial site to recover a 5t forklift with my Discovery, WH&S bloke didn't bat an eye lid... strap was rated to 11000kg and as far as he was concerned it was fine (I know that will have a few people squirming in their seats).

Personally you couldn't pay me to recover a car off a bull bar mounted with crush cans, the crush cans would deform before the snatch strap fails (plenty of evidence of this applying to D2's from the USA), 15t loading would be a static loading, not an impulse. However most people don't get stuck to the point of using maximum force in a recovery very often... so it's probably ok in 90% of cases.

Swivels are all well and good, but providing the shackle pin does not bind (creating a bending moment), I see no issue with conventional type solid mounted recovery points. The binding issue can be overcome by using a sufficiently large diameter hole.

I've had a look at what Beaver provides in our catalogues at work (Total Tools), and can get a price in the next fortnight if anyone is interested (I'm off, sowing at the moment).

[clubagreenie]

Good to have a price comparison. Waiting on bulk purchase qty and pricing.

My primary reason for changing is the existing eye bolts are only 2T each. And while they reach nowhere near plastic limits with loads that could be applied there's not quite enough margin in them and the thread is way too large on an appropriate size by comparison to the rotating points (which almost doesn't make sense except that maybe the HT status of a fastener cannot be or is detrimental if applied to the entire eyebolt).