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Judo
1st May 2015, 03:01 PM
Powerwall | Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall)

Seems pretty cheap for a lithium ion battery of that capacity? 10 year warranty. Could be a pretty sweet addition to solar panels on a house!

I wonder what kind of savings you could make by only using off peak rates from your supplier verses the cost of the unit over 10-20 years.... Time to get the calculator out.

WhiteD3
1st May 2015, 04:19 PM
Great sounding product. I'd have to do the math on 2kW continuous and they are not small! They also have to be installed on the DC side and there's nothing said about the charge time.

This is the future...

JDNSW
1st May 2015, 04:37 PM
Certainly sounds cheap - but!

1. Those are $US for delivery in U.S.A. Add exchange rate conversion, Delivery to Australia, GST, and "Australia Tax", and it may not look as good.

2. This may be even more important. If faced with significant numbers of customers using off peak power only, how long do you expect current price structures to continue? Expect them to change pretty smartly to a fixed connection charge that reflects the real network cost, with power charges close to what they actually pay the generator companies for the power. This will upset your calculator costs. Of course, you can then go completely off grid, but you will need a lot bigger battery set than that, and expect, again, if a lot of people do this, for a "supply available" charge to appear, in the same way that water and sewerage charges apply to even a vacant block in many places.

Of course, if costs get low enough for batteries, it will spell the end of a lot of power networks (who may well install their own local battery banks to keep the nework going long before this), but I expect that will take many years.

John

Ferret
1st May 2015, 04:39 PM
This is the future...

Bah, Lockheed Martin will have a compact fusion reactor (http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compact-fusion-reactor-details) available within 5-10 years. I'd be saving my banana skins now. :D

tonic
1st May 2015, 05:49 PM
I'm having serious thoughts about this Selectronic Australia Pty Ltd - True Sine Wave Inverters (http://www.selectronic.com.au/inverter/sine.html) , although I think the battery technology may get there first, that is, before I go ahead with this style of system.

Eevo
1st May 2015, 05:56 PM
as much as i like the idea. its uneconomical for most households.

bee utey
1st May 2015, 06:08 PM
Lithium battery costs are dropping around 14% every year. Tesla's giant battery factory comes online in 2017 or thereabouts. This is the coal generators worst nightmare. Not long now.....

Eevo
1st May 2015, 06:12 PM
This is the coal generators worst nightmare. Not long now.....

until the price of solar comes down (and i hope it does)
and until solar is on every house, its not a nightmare yet.

most electricity production still goes to commercial and industry.
not to residential

Homestar
1st May 2015, 06:40 PM
Was in a meeting today with a Manager from one of Victorias supply authorities. They know the writing is on the wall and have seen demand drop year on year. They are now getting into the solar market as they see most poles and wires going the way of the dodo within 3 decades.

They are already seeing a massive increase in off grid systems in remote areas. Space for panels and batteries will be a more limiting factor in modern suburbia for the time being. He showed me one system that doesn't even use a backup generator and has run now for over a year. Draw back is that there is 15KW of solar panels - most suburban properties wouldn't have the room to place that many panels in the correct orientation.

I'm sure things will progress nicely in coming years.

Eevo
1st May 2015, 07:08 PM
whats the cost on 15kW now days?
$10k?

bee utey
1st May 2015, 07:18 PM
until the price of solar comes down (and i hope it does)
and until solar is on every house, its not a nightmare yet.

most electricity production still goes to commercial and industry.
not to residential
Solar panel costs have dropped faster than battery costs and most countries are now prioritising grid size solar installations. Viz the Nyngan solar farm put in by a major owner of Aussie coal fired plants. Smart people are way ahead of the die hards. New grid sized solar is now cheaper than new coal plants and will only get cheaper.

AGL - Nyngan Solar Plant (http://www.agl.com.au/about-agl/how-we-source-energy/renewable-energy/nyngan-solar-plant)

Floating solar plants are the new game, reducing evaporation on scarce water sources and increased efficiency. First floating plant in Aust has just opened in Jamestown SA. The rest of the world is going gang busters on this kind of technology.

Solar power plant floating on wastewater hailed for multiple environmental benefits - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-29/solar-power-plant-at-jamestown-wastewater-site/6431872)

Eevo
1st May 2015, 07:24 PM
Solar panel costs have dropped faster than battery costs and most countries are now prioritising grid size solar installations. [/url]

im more talking about residential installs.

if we can replace (not just supplement ) coal with solar, it will be a great achievement.

Rick122
2nd May 2015, 12:36 PM
The problem is, most people don't want to change their power usage habits.
My brothers house has been off the grid for 12 years now and is only a 3.5kw system, including a small wind generator. His batteries are only now starting to deteriorate (lead acid) and he sometimes has to use a small backup generator. But they live like they are using coin operated power points. They only switch things on as they are needed, switch things of when not. The only thing that's on permanently is the fridge. It's not for everyone admittedly.

Appliances are becoming less power hungry all the time, LED lighting, laptop computers, LCD/LED TV's etc. The greatest energy consumer now is probably aircon/heating.
We should be using less power than 10 years ago just due to advances in power management and design.

A 7kw system would suit 90% of people's homes if some thought was given to how power is being consumed.

Sent using the AURLO App

Eevo
2nd May 2015, 12:39 PM
also depends upon location
tas no good for solar
even adelaide in winter

Rick122
2nd May 2015, 01:17 PM
In assuming you are referring to the cold in winter or in Tassie? Solar panels are more efficient at lower temperatures, you get less output as the panel heats up. You get less daylight in winter though so you would need to take that into account.
Solar works fine in Tassie?

Sent using the AURLO App

Eevo
2nd May 2015, 01:28 PM
In assuming you are referring to the cold in winter or in Tassie? Solar panels are more efficient at lower temperatures, you get less output as the panel heats up. You get less daylight in winter though so you would need to take that into account.
Solar works fine in Tassie?

Sent using the AURLO App

lack of sunshine.
need to build a bigger system which becomes cost prohibitive

WhiteD3
2nd May 2015, 04:34 PM
Tesla announces electric energy for the home (http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/tesla-announces-electric-energy-for-the-home-20150501-1mxszs.html)

Vern
4th May 2015, 07:36 PM
whats the cost on 15kW now days?
$10k?

Double that figure!

Vern
4th May 2015, 07:38 PM
I'm having serious thoughts about this Selectronic Australia Pty Ltd - True Sine Wave Inverters (http://www.selectronic.com.au/inverter/sine.html) , although I think the battery technology may get there first, that is, before I go ahead with this style of system.

Great bit of gear that one. I will be setting one of these up for a customer soon with lithium batteries.

Dervish
5th May 2015, 03:16 PM
Great bit of gear that one. I will be setting one of these up for a customer soon with lithium batteries.


I was involved in designing a Selectronics system a while back, but the batteries they recommended weren't really top tier stuff. At the time I was trying to convince them to work out a program for Sonnenschein lithiums, but I left the company before it all got sorted. Just out of curiosity, which lithium cells are you using? (And do you know if Sonnenschein Lithiums are compatible yet?)

DeeJay
6th May 2015, 04:36 PM
Here is a pretty even handed review of the system








Tesla Tries To Reduce Our Use Of Fossil Fuels With A New Source Of Electricity [VIDEO] (http://www.wimp.com/tesla-source/)

ramblingboy42
7th May 2015, 05:16 AM
well, solar has been powering the International Space Station and every other satellite out there for over 40 years now.

there is obviously some "old" technology that we don't have access to yet.

satellite batteries cannot be heavy, nor can the hardware for it , so what is the latest in that department?

btw it also has to super reliable and in most cases non-serviceable , so we are long way behind in domestic land , aren't we?

ramblingboy42
7th May 2015, 05:31 AM
the other thing which I have been made aware of is that there is a massive footprint involved in production of solar cells and the hardware including batteries to build these systems.

this is where China is stealing the biggest leap on the rest of the world by building huge alternate energy systems to use in manufacturing all of this equipment with a minimal footprint compared to coal fired systems.

once the alternate energy industrial/domestic power generating plants are online they will close down their dirty generating systems thus using clean energy and removing the terrible dirty footprint the rest of the world will have to manufacture clean energy generating systems.

it's real dog eat dog situation until the alternate energy (ie. clean) system can be used to produce clean energy systems for domestic use vis, the Tesla battery.

Vern
7th May 2015, 06:59 AM
Isn't this thing just a flash looking ups? What's going to charge it? Coal!

Rick122
7th May 2015, 07:13 AM
Um....your solar panels will charge it during the day, you'll use it at night. That's how all of-the-grid systems work.

bee utey
7th May 2015, 07:33 AM
Isn't this thing just a flash looking ups? What's going to charge it? Coal!
I'm quite sure the box will have enough smarts to charge off whatever source of energy the owner wishes, yes even coal if no other sources are available to tide you over between sun/wind/biomass/geothermal availability.

Vern
7th May 2015, 07:41 AM
Um....your solar panels will charge it during the day, you'll use it at night. That's how all of-the-grid systems work.

Fully aware rick, but what is so special about this ups system? Is it just good marketing, like an iPhone? There are already plenty of systems out there, this system will not take you off grid, battery back up is to small.

bee utey
7th May 2015, 07:53 AM
Fully aware rick, but what is so special about this ups system? Is it just good marketing, like an iPhone? There are already plenty of systems out there, this system will not take you off grid, battery back up is to small.
For consumers with time-of-day metering it allows the consumption of power to be cut during times of peak expense and the battery is then recharged by free solar or cheap off peak power. It can save the consumer considerable sums of money and removes the need to strengthen grid infrastructure to handle rare peak loads, ie "gold plating". This being very profitable for utilities when done with guaranteed rates of return from the government. Some pricing systems will be much more aggressive than this:


https://www.yourpowerqld.com.au/__data/assets/image/0006/214872/TimeOfUse1415.png

Rick122
7th May 2015, 07:56 AM
Yes, good marketing and a good quality product probably too. There are systems available but not all-in-one and not as cheap etc.
Maybe too small for some people's lifestyles. You can't expect to go Green and not make some sacrifices. If you are using more than the 10kwh it provides you either change how you use power or cough up for 2 of them. My brother has been of off grid for 12 years now with a less than 4kwh system running off lead acid batteries. Just saying it is possible if you are prepared to make changes.

Vern
7th May 2015, 07:58 AM
Understand its purpose, but what's all the hoo haa about the Tesla ups? Why not spend a little extra and exit the grid fully?
I probably should read about this thing first:D

JDNSW
7th May 2015, 08:29 AM
There is nothing particularly new about the concept. What is new is producing it as a standard module that is designed to fit into most homes with minimum effort. Producing a standard module enables this to be mass produced, rather than every installation being a custom design, so that both the system and installation costs should be reduced.

As suggested, it is specifically aimed at houses which already have solar PV collectors, and is primarily intended to extend your use of solar power collected during the day into the evening peak. This both avoids paying peak power rates, and reduces both the peak network consumption and peak feedin during the day when nobody is home, thus reducing the demands on the network resulting from both of these peaks.

John

Vern
7th May 2015, 08:50 AM
Curious as to what it costs? Would be guessing $10k?
For me (and others with solar) I would run an Sp pro with a 48v 700ah system. This would cost me $16k materials only for a 33kwh system, vs ??? For 10kwh system.
Can see its benefits as a Retro fit easy all in one system though.
But by the time these are out, lithium will be old news and we will be onto molten salt batteries which from what I've been told can be drained 100%

bee utey
7th May 2015, 09:17 AM
Curious as to what it costs? Would be guessing $10k?
For me (and others with solar) I would run an Sp pro with a 48v 700ah system. This would cost me $16k materials only for a 33kwh system, vs ??? For 10kwh system.
Can see its benefits as a Retro fit easy all in one system though.
But by the time these are out, lithium will be old news and we will be onto molten salt batteries which from what I've been told can be drained 100%
The difference between your system and the Tesla system (apart from the bulkiness) is in the production figures. Your system may be installed in dozens of homes a year, the Tesla system hopes to be sold as a mass production unit in the tens to hundreds of thousands. Other manufacturers can and will move to produce similar batteries and drive the cost down to make them a consumer product as common as a refrigerator. Tesla intends to be riding the crest of the wave to introduce batteries into every home and vehicle wherever possible. House storage of electricity will become as cheap as hot water storage given a bit of a push by Tesla and other companies.


Curious as to what it costs? Would be guessing $10k?
US$3500

Tesla Powerwall: A Battery For Your Home | Gizmodo Australia (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/05/tesla-powerwall-a-battery-for-your-home/)

Jojo
9th May 2015, 09:18 PM
As I already have a 20kW solar panel installation on my roof, I have been waiting for a similar solution as the Tesla Powerwall for quite a while. I have previously considered a home-made installation, but you won't get anywhere near the Tesla product in neither price nor performance (let alone the design...).
I trust the price tag will come down a bit too, after Tesla's Gigafactory has started production. For Tesla, it will be a good way to sell off spare batteries they don't need for their vehicles immediately. For the customer it gives a bit of independence at a fair price. An ingenious win-win situation.

I have to disclose that I already own a Tesla (yep, after over 20 years of driving exclusively Solihull products I have recently added a Model S to my fleet) and am more than convinced about Tesla's capability now. If the Powerwall is of a standard similar to the vehicle, then you cannot go wrong. The only pity, you can only get the Powerwall in the US just now. I probably will wait a couple of years or so, then it will be available here as well and the price might have been halved by then.

tonic
14th June 2015, 06:56 AM
Just found this home grown system. haven't looked fully into it but looks like it does everything the Tesla does and perhaps a bit more.


Energy Storage (http://www.zenenergy.com.au/home/energy-storage/)

JDNSW
14th June 2015, 09:43 AM
.......... then it will be available here as well and the price might have been halved by then.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic - but current estimates seem to suggest that the US$3500 translates into A$10,000 installed (shipping, import tariff, GST, Australia tax, currency conversion, cost of consumer legislation etc), or thereabouts, and I think the halving in a couple of years is a bit optimistic.

It will be sometime next year before Tesla's factory is in production, and if this product is anywhere near as successful as many expect, that still won't even come close to meeting demand - and supply/demand economic theory suggests that demand exceeding supply is unlikely to result in a price reduction, at least in the short term. And facilities to produce batteries on the scale of Tesla's new factory are not built overnight.

John

PhilipA
14th June 2015, 10:20 AM
Apparently , Tesla has so far gained USD 4.8 billion in subsidies from the US Government.
It will be interesting to see how the company prospers once the subsidies are removed.

Regards Philip A

Jojo
21st June 2015, 04:25 PM
Apparently , Tesla has so far gained USD 4.8 billion in subsidies from the US Government.
It will be interesting to see how the company prospers once the subsidies are removed.

Regards Philip A


Like many other companies, even Tesla has received government subsidies, especially during their start-up phase. In contrast to most others, Tesla has already repaid most of it.


Elon Musk Responds To Alleged "Battery Breakthroughs" (http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-responds) ... es-wvideo/

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-m ... ?link=sfmw

Homestar
21st June 2015, 06:31 PM
Apparently , Tesla has so far gained USD 4.8 billion in subsidies from the US Government.
It will be interesting to see how the company prospers once the subsidies are removed.

Regards Philip A

Wouldn't it be nice if we backed renewable energy companies here so the technology could be developed faster...

Vern
22nd June 2015, 08:17 AM
Just found this home grown system. haven't looked fully into it but looks like it does everything the Tesla does and perhaps a bit more.


Energy Storage (http://www.zenenergy.com.au/home/energy-storage/)

Plenty of systems out there like this already. That's why I ask what's so special about the Tesla?

Tombie
22nd June 2015, 09:26 AM
Plenty of systems out there like this already. That's why I ask what's so special about the Tesla?

Think of it as the Power equiv of the Model-T production line :cool:

Homestar
22nd June 2015, 10:42 AM
Plenty of systems out there like this already. That's why I ask what's so special about the Tesla?

It's pretty to look at and hangs on the wall so it must be better... ;)

muddymech
25th March 2016, 05:32 PM
Has anyone made the jump and got one now they are available

Mick_Marsh
25th March 2016, 08:45 PM
How many kwh is this powerwall?

Vern
25th March 2016, 09:09 PM
Been talking with a few of my solar suppliers, and as I have never researched it, they have filled me in. Its just a battery, that battery is either made by lgchem or Samsung or the likes, it still needs an inverter, its just great advertising. People should look at local manufacturers like Redback, who make the same, as if not a better product for a much cheaper price.

JDNSW
25th March 2016, 09:11 PM
Think of it as the Power equiv of the Model-T production line :cool:

This, I think, is an appropriate simile, and is in fact one I have used myself. However, I would temper it by saying "it may be the home power storage equivalent of the Model T". But at present we are about where Ford was in 1908, and it was about 1912 before the success of the Ford even began to change the face of motoring (in 1909 Ford built about 10,000, by 1912 it was nearly 70,000, and the price had dropped by about 25%; but by 1914 price had almost halved, and production was over 200,000.

It took six years for the price to halve, and I seriously doubt that Tesla can do as well - Ford introduced to the motor industry mass production methods that had never been conceived of in the industry, but today batteries are already mass produced. The easy gains have already been made.

And it should be emphasised that the Model T was a runaway success, not because it was mass produced, but because it was well designed and well made, while being designed for the middle class, not the wealthy. It was mass produced because it was so successful, and this multiplied its success.

John

bee utey
25th March 2016, 09:43 PM
Has anyone made the jump and got one now they are available
There have been a few installed in Oz since the start of February. A good analysis by Choice magazine is here:

https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/solar/articles/tesla-powerwall-payback-time

Mick_Marsh
25th March 2016, 09:58 PM
There have been a few installed in Oz since the start of February. A good analysis by Choice magazine is here:

https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/solar/articles/tesla-powerwall-payback-time
Interesting. From the article, pay back is 24 years.

You know the unit has a 5000 cycle life so you will be replacing it about every thirteen years.

simmo
25th March 2016, 10:05 PM
Its an interesting topic, but I for one am unconvinced of the economic benefits of solar for the house holder.

I moved into a house recently with 23 solar panels on the high north facing roof in two groups, with two switchboards under the house. No idea of the cost but expensive I think. 8000$ ?

quarterly figures;rounded for simplicity.

1600 kw hours produced during the day time peak power- purchased by e.....x at 6 c per kw hour = $100.

800 kw h consumed, ie we generate twice the power we use, in peak time when the generating authorities need it most. that power is sold back to us a 4 times the cost during the day and double at off peak times.

300 kw/h peak power ; billed at 24 c per kw h..........75$


500 kw /h off peak power ( hot water) billed at 12 c kw h.......60$

a service
provision fee about 120 $

A fee to read my solar meters etc.

the short story is I'm saving about $100 per quarter or $400 per year.

20 years to get a payback with zero maintenance costs, that sounds like a con.:o

JDNSW
26th March 2016, 06:27 AM
People who buy a Powerwall for financial reasons are either kidding themselves or willingly allowing the salesman to do it.

Most buyers will get them to gain prestige as being sufficiently wealthy to afford conspicuous consumption, but in a "green" manner, or because they are mad at their electricity supplier, and are quite happy that they are losing money, although they will often use spurious maths to try and deny it, as our culture often condemns those who admit to spending money just for ostentation.

John

bee utey
26th March 2016, 09:04 AM
Early adopters of any technology are happy to pay a premium price to show off their trendiness to the neighbours. This is an item stuck to your outside wall after all. It's no different to the AULRO members who have the means to buy a brand new Range Rover Sport to park on the front lawn when a well used 2A would get them up the backyard hill just the same.

Anyway, battery costs are falling at around 14% p.a. and if this trend continues by 2021 batteries will cost half of what they do today. Then they will fly off the shelf as fast as they can be made. Early adopters may also take the gamble that the batteries either perform better than expected, or fail within the warranty period and get replaced by shiny new ones. Not personally being a consumer of first wave products, I won't be buying one until the financial benefits are clear. But good on the people pushing the technology forwards, early adopters are essential to drive future demand and mass production at a rapidly lowering cost.

Mick_Marsh
26th March 2016, 09:23 AM
But good on the people pushing the technology forwards,
Push the technology forwards! It's just a battery pack. I've been using battery packs for years. It looks to me the technology, the battery pack technology, hasn't progressed in years.
It looks to me Tesla has just put more batteries in a bigger box.

I reckon this system should be looked at before you even consider a powerwall.
Home - All Grid Energy (http://www.allgrid.energy/)
Because it's Australian.

If you're going to waste your money, waste it in Australia.

bee utey
26th March 2016, 10:00 AM
It's just a battery pack.
Sure thing. Nail a bit of corro over that pallet of half dead truck batteries and you'll have twice the product for a fraction of the cost. Profit!

JDNSW
26th March 2016, 01:57 PM
......

Anyway, battery costs are falling at around 14% p.a. and if this trend continues by 2021 batteries will cost half of what they do today. ........

I keep seeing these sort of claims, but when I go to buy batteries I see no evidence of it. My first set of Batteries was installed in 1994, and while the replacements I installed in in 2013 were cheaper, the difference was hardly noticeable. But difficult to be certain because it proved virtually impossible to compare apples with apples, seeing that there is no standard way of specifying batteries (or if there is a standard, nobody uses it!).

John

PhilipA
26th March 2016, 02:04 PM
I keep seeing these sort of claims, but when I go to buy batteries I see no evidence of it.
Same here.
I have been idly looking at LiFePO4 battery prices on Ebay and they seem to be the same or more expensive than 2 years ago when I first became interested at at least $1100 for a 100AH battery.

Similarly even the Lithium battery packs for say Ryobi tools are the same if not more expensive than say 3-4 years ago when I bought the last lot.

I note that currently Tesla are buying their batteries from Panasonic and hope to reduce prices when their "mega factory" gets up and running.
Hope to being the operative Phrase

Regards Philip A

DiscoMick
26th March 2016, 02:32 PM
A local crowd are offering a Samsung battery pack for 5kw solar systems for $15,000. I'm waiting to see what happens. Might install a battery bank in 2019 when I plan to retire.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

bee utey
27th March 2016, 08:25 AM
If you've been watching Lithium battery prices in Aussie Dollars, remember the $A has dropped from around 90 cents US to around 70 cents US over the last two years. This will have masked the drop in production costs where goods are traded in $US. Then there's the Australia Tax. I've found that even with the $A tanking, overseas costs have remained substantially lower. Either the prices overseas are dropping or the local retailers are having trouble shifting their stocks but refuse to lower their prices. Or both.

As for lead acid prices, there wouldn't be as much pressure applied to prices by increasing volume production, it's more of a mature technology.

DAMINK
27th March 2016, 08:42 AM
Are these the same batteries they use in those damn hoverboards?
I wonder if this will turn out like the pink bats fiasco.
Houses burned down due to overheating batteries or poor wiring.

None the less its great to see an alternative to what we have.
Now for a few generations of the product until it becomes a viable item.

A sparky mate of mine seems to think replacement parts on these items will outweigh any gains made.
As suggested earlier i think by bee utey is the prices are dropping year by year.

bee utey
27th March 2016, 08:39 PM
Are these the same batteries they use in those damn hoverboards?
The hoverboards that caught fire were crappy chinese knockoffs that people bought cheap. The original hoverboards are made to a much higher standard.

I wonder if this will turn out like the pink bats fiasco.
The percentage of houses that caught fire due to the home insulation scheme was actually lower than the regular rate for house fires. It was a media beat up by a certain Mr Murdoch for his own nefarious ends.

Houses burned down due to overheating batteries or poor wiring.
You don't need a battery to start a fire, most appliances if abused will catch fire. Heck, even a reputable brand like LG made washing machines that spontaneously catch fire. There are plenty of them still out there that haven't been repaired under the safety recall, so expect a few more fires in laundries across the nation.

Oh and there has already been one new type battery catch fire in Australia, as it was mounted to a brick wall in his garage the house didn't catch fire with it. Quality battery installations will have plenty of safety features to keep them from doing much damage. Using an angle grinder in the garage is a much surer way of setting a house alight, with all the inflammables people keep under the bench down the back.


None the less its great to see an alternative to what we have.
Now for a few generations of the product until it becomes a viable item.

A sparky mate of mine seems to think replacement parts on these items will outweigh any gains made.
As suggested earlier i think by bee utey is the prices are dropping year by year.
No doubt there will be winners and losers in the rush to sell house batteries, wary people will wait and see as to what are the best performing products before getting one. I for one have no need to be the first in my suburb with a Tesla battery, I already have an adequate back up system in the garage. Load shifting doesn't suit my current feed in tariff anyway. :)

DAMINK
28th March 2016, 11:56 AM
The hoverboards that caught fire were crappy chinese knockoffs that people bought cheap. The original hoverboards are made to a much higher standard.

They were legal in Aus for a short time before they were banned.
Had you purchased one early before knowing how bad they are then bad luck i guess? Imagine the same things happen with the batteries?

Yep people buy cheap stuff, chinese stuff all the time which gets back to my earlier point. I hope this does not happen with the batteries in this situation.
Even different installers may source there products from different locations.
Just food for thought.



The percentage of houses that caught fire due to the home insulation scheme was actually lower than the regular rate for house fires. It was a media beat up by a certain Mr Murdoch for his own nefarious ends.


Dont forget about people dying. I think thats relevant to this discussion.
And based on those deaths i dont think its just a media beat up and nor would the families of said dead people.
Not to mention they had a Royal Commission into this. I highly doubt they would do that if its just a Murdock beat up........ If there was no deaths and the contractors were legit and following the correct safety then perhaps.
But that is not the case.


Battery Expert Weighs in on Tesla (http://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/10296/Battery-Expert-Weighs-in-on-Teslas-Powerwall.aspx)

Not a bad write up by this guy.
"There is always some percentage of failures in battery packs and battery cells."

With that said and keeping in mind the pink bats problem this was my point.

If we roll out these on mass and there is a Percentage of Failures in the product, all ya need is poor instillation like the pink bats and you have real issues.
Which was my point all along i guess.

bee utey
28th March 2016, 01:13 PM
There is no such thing as a risk free technology. Cars can kill. Yet you still let your family members use them. I remember well when a friend of mine with a nearly new EB Ford Falcon drove home on a hot day, parked in front of his house, heard a whump, turned around and saw his car in flames. Yet Ford didn't stop selling Falcons because of this incident as it was too rare to make the news. The deaths due to insulation installation was mainly the fault of poor work practices. Sure, there was a lack of oversight of this programme but regardless people will do stupid things. For Mr Murdoch, cars are good (=consumerism) and free insulation is bad (=socialism) so stories are written accordingly.

So long as people don't buy their battery systems based on the cheapest devices for sale, I think the risks to the homeowner will be small.

ramblingboy42
28th March 2016, 08:00 PM
This "technology" has been available for about 40 years.

I have original copies of Simply Living magazine with features on the Rainbow Power Company in Northern NSW offering almost exactly what is being offered now.

Rainbow Power were bullied badly by the "major " manufacturers of solar cells who happened to be a major oil company.

This is not new technology , just a company cashing in on current trends. It is also very expensive compared to the cost you can do it yourself or have a system installed by an electrician.....

DAMINK
29th March 2016, 07:26 AM
This is not new technology , just a company cashing in on current trends. It is also very expensive compared to the cost you can do it yourself or have a system installed by an electrician.....

Yikes! Do it yourself?
Arent there laws to prevent people from touching the power supply to the house? I thought only linesman could touch the power anywhere before the fused supply?
I assume these units connect to the supply directly.....

Mick_Marsh
29th March 2016, 12:21 PM
I assume these units connect to the supply directly.....
These units connect to an inverter that connects your side of the service fuses. It is domestic. A REC wires it up or inspects/approves it.

DiscoMick
29th March 2016, 02:46 PM
This "technology" has been available for about 40 years.

I have original copies of Simply Living magazine with features on the Rainbow Power Company in Northern NSW offering almost exactly what is being offered now.

Rainbow Power were bullied badly by the "major " manufacturers of solar cells who happened to be a major oil company.

This is not new technology , just a company cashing in on current trends. It is also very expensive compared to the cost you can do it yourself or have a system installed by an electrician.....

That's Rainbow Power at Nimbin. Still going.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Homestar
29th March 2016, 06:22 PM
Yikes! Do it yourself?
Arent there laws to prevent people from touching the power supply to the house? I thought only linesman could touch the power anywhere before the fused supply?
I assume these units connect to the supply directly.....

Yep, if the mains wiring is disturbed then a Certificate of Electrical Safety is required. This sort of work can only be carried out by a Liceneced Electrician - and wired in AFTER the main switch and meter.

BUT (there's always a but :D) there is nothing stopping anyone building a solar system with battery storage that runs at up to 48 volts nominal - different panels, but you can do it - no licence or regulations around wiring that is under 50 volts. I've seen more than one off the grid system DIY'ed like this - to great effect. Not as efficient as the higher voltage, state of the art stuff with Lithium batteries but quite workable. 48 volt inverters are readily available, but integrating it with a grid system wouldn't be seamless or doable as a DIY project.

But if you don't have mains, it's a viable solution.:)

Eevo
24th February 2021, 03:19 PM
got a quote today for installing a tesla powerwall for the house. 14.1k!
wont even pay itself off in the warranty period.

Homestar
24th February 2021, 03:38 PM
Yikes! Would need to crunch the numbers on what that would save off my Electricity bill if I maximised it’s use but it would be around 15 years to break even for me I think.

sashadidi
24th February 2021, 03:45 PM
got a quote today for installing a tesla powerwall for the house. 14.1k!
wont even pay itself off in the warranty period.
Yep I brought a 2nd hand nissan leaf (wholesale price in NZ) as my work hack which i needed to replace anyway for round town use instead of a corolla for about for the same price as telsa wall and charge it mainly on my solar panels done 25000km and saved about 4500 dollars in petrol at least miminum of 5 times more savings than storing power in wall which of course you cant charge every day because of the weather and other factors, they neec to drop in price by 50% at least...

Eevo
24th February 2021, 03:55 PM
Yikes! Would need to crunch the numbers on what that would save off my Electricity bill if I maximised it’s use but it would be around 15 years to break even for me I think.


13.6 years break even.

2 years ago i got a quote for 9k, and i wasnt worth it back then. maybe i was wrong.

101RRS
24th February 2021, 04:52 PM
got a quote today for installing a tesla powerwall for the house. 14.1k!
wont even pay itself off in the warranty period.

How many kw?

Homestar
24th February 2021, 04:52 PM
13.6 years break even.

2 years ago i got a quote for 9k, and i wasnt worth it back then. maybe i was wrong.

Well my quick calculation in my head wasn’t far off then. 👍

Eevo
24th February 2021, 05:02 PM
How many kw?
13.5kWh

101RRS
24th February 2021, 08:57 PM
13.5kWh

So about twice the cost of a bank of AGM batteries of about the same useful capacity - following on from another recent thread - why does a house need lithium batteries when size and weight is not an issue.

A Tesla power wall does look pretty though.

Garry

JDNSW
25th February 2021, 07:47 AM
So about twice the cost of a bank of AGM batteries of about the same useful capacity - following on from another recent thread - why does a house need lithium batteries when size and weight is not an issue.

A Tesla power wall does look pretty though.

Garry

Well, many, if not most, cars are sold mainly on looks, so why not batteries?

Homestar
25th February 2021, 09:16 AM
So about twice the cost of a bank of AGM batteries of about the same useful capacity - following on from another recent thread - why does a house need lithium batteries when size and weight is not an issue.

A Tesla power wall does look pretty though.

Garry

Lithium does have a longer life though, but I don't think we quite know lifespan yet despite the claims - I want to see how long they last in the real world. I'm hopeful that sodium ion batteries start to get more mass produced which will bring their cost down significantly for this sort of application and give the longevity of lithium with the cost of AGM or even cheaper given the readily available materials required to make them. Biggest drawback is size and weight, but for fixed installations would be a winner. I think most people only know of the Lituim tech as this is what is widely used in EV's etc, but they a waste of money and resources for fixed installations IMO.