Diesel Fuel

[stevespug407]

As i am new to this forum and are thinking along the lines later this year of a second hand Disco 4 ('12) age i am doing my homework.
Are the 2.7 diesels that sensitive to contaminated fuel like the V8 toyota diesels are ( i know all common-rails hate dirty fuel ) but i never hear of the Disco's having issues.
As i have plans to travel around the middle of this great country i was just asking this question and how remote have you guys been in your Disco's?:angel:

[jonesy63]

Hi Steve - welcome. Yes, all D3-D4 are sensitive to rubbish fuel. Water or contamination cause the bearings in the high pressure fuel pump to die (due to a lack of lubrication) - then that often takes out the injectors.

I have been to pretty remote places with my D3 and now my D4. On my trip to Broome a few years ago, I took some 2 stroke oil with me and put about 400mL in each time I filled up at the remote bowsers - like Drysdale River Station.

Also make sure your comprehensive insurance covers fuel contamination - so if the worst happens, you are covered.

Cheers,
Rob

[stevespug407]

Thanks Jonesy63,
Can you fit one of those 30 micron prefilters?? And do the 2.7s have the DPF??

[RobA]

To offer some more detailed explanation but trying to keep it simple. The injector ports in all common rail diesels are smaller than a human hair and the pressure in the rail is higher than that which they use water to cut diamonds. So to over come this Australia moved to very low sulphur diesel over a period of around 5 years in mid 2000's. Albeit we are still not at the level the Europeans are heading to.

So that hopefully explains the why. Now for the what. Whilst Australian fuel has improved significantly the storage of it has not, particularly in the outback but also in the burbs. This means you always have a chance of a dirty lot of fuel. TO reinforce this I filled a 2xJC as backup fuel for the Easter Landcover event at Melrose. When we had a look at the fuel it was contaminated with long strings of suspended solids.

OK now how do we deal with this. First step is prevention so we use a Mr Funnel filter funnel every time we drop fuel into the tank. Google it you will find them in a myriad of sizes and capacities. They work very well and you can get one that copes with the fill rate of a high capacity diesel pump if you want to go that far. Previously with our Prado's we were using 2 micron filters as well and past the OE fuel filter in the engine bay. That way is has no impact on fuel pressures which can upset computers, refer comments above.

So with the TDV6 we are only using the Mr Funnel at the moment. I am considering a 2 micron filter but will talk to our Disco expert before taking that step as the engine bay is quite full so space is at a premium

Rob

[LRD414]

I took some 2 stroke oil with me and put about 400mL in each time I filled up at the remote bowsers

How does this help Rob? Perhaps lubrication of the HPFP? I don't understand how it would help with contaminants.

Regards,
Scott

[RobA]

How does this help Rob? Perhaps lubrication of the HPFP? I don't understand how it would help with contaminants.

Regards,
Scott

Scott it would not help at all actually the reverse as the viscosity of that oil is higher than diesel. As well you do not need lubricants as diesel, jut like petrol has already been cocktail with the right type and quantity of chemicals to do the job. The contaminants we deal with and which I described are suspended solids or particulants that come from; water, dirt, fungus that grows in diesel tanks and rust particles. Hence I always recommend and personally always use a Mr Funnel or similar but I have found none in Australia. That way you can be reasonably sure that the bulk of the crap is caught. But nothing is foolproof and water naturally builds up in all diesel tanks and systems. Not new and filters have been manufactured to capture and deal with it all pretty much. Albeit after any outback trip we always replace the filter(s). I remember getting a dodgy batch of fuel in the Western Macs or along the Stuart Hwy a few years back which was the result of me being slack. The Prado went well there and back but on a run to Beachport and about Kingston the warning lights went on. SO what had happened is that the muck had been building up in the filter to the point where it got clogged and went to limp mode. Nothing wrong with that just proves the system works.

So a short response to your question is no and we avoid additives completely

Rob

[stevespug407]

Thanks guys for your responses and ill be reading any more should they come along.
I currently own a 2010 Holden Colorado (Isuzu engine) and love the torque but with 2 little boys on the way up we are running out of room.
I do every service myself on the Colorado apart from the valve adjustments and have a 30 micron prefilter as i am very careful where i fill up.
I also own a 2005 Peugeot 407 2.0lt diesel and everyday it surprises me with its refinement but also on the other hand it has some quirky traits.
I am looking forward to owning a D4 and its quirks and simply there is no better off-road 4x4 straight out of the box ( and i used to own a modded GU patrol) but now getting older i was the luxuries.

[PhilipA]

Hence I always recommend and personally always use a Mr Funnel or similar but I have found none in Australia.
I have a largest flow Mr Funnel.

I have only used it once and I can tell you that through a plastic elbow adapter into a D2 fuel tank it is nothing like fast enough to keep up with a low flow pump let alone a high flow. Maybe OK into a jerry with no extra nozzle.

I was very surprised at this and it was lucky I was at a seldom used fuel station. The woman proprietor asked why I was so slow and was a bit insulted , saying they had never had a bad fuel incident. So I have resolved to only use the Mr Funnel at low volume stations.

The point was however that if I had been at Overland Roadhouse with 5 rigs lined up at the pump, I reckon that there would have been a riot! LOL.

Funny thing was I went around the back at Overland , and there was the diesel truck unloading into the tank, a definite No No with CRD but I guess ignorance is bliss.
BTW, Mr Funnels are now advertised now in 4WD mags. I got mine from the USA for about half from a motorcycle dealer AFAIR.
Regards Philip A

[Fred Nerk]

I appreciate that a filter such as a Mr Funnel may be quite effective. These are something I will have to research 'cause this is the first time I have heard about them.


After filling, what does the filter look like? Has anyone examined a filter to see if it has been trapping contaminants?

[p38arover]

Funny thing was I went around the back at Overland , and there was the diesel truck unloading into the tank, a definite No No with CRD but I guess ignorance is bliss.

:confused:

How else would the tanker get fuel into the underground tank?

[RobA]

Go to here Mr Funnel Fuel Filter Funnels (http://www.proquip.com.au/ProductPages/Funnels/MrFunnel.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwg7yqBRCu5NmlgMm6i08SJA DDEudZECWAYPzF-ylOIpsapjF5liT5zUKcmXvIqFx6F1QoChoC76Lw_wcB)

You will see one at 45l per minute more than enough for most pumps. Never had a problem using the 19l per minute version at all but it takes practice

They are for suspended solids and water. Both are primary issues when refuelling. The issue is rarely ever fuel quality rather fuel storage that brings the contaminants.

We always ask when was the last drop to avoid the turbidity caused by dropping 10,000l into an underground tank.

Personal choice as to when you use something like this. The discussion is really about risk management of refuelling. I have seen plenty of dodgy fuel disgorged from poorly maintained JC captured by our funnels. Our JC are flushed with metho at the end of each trip and dried then again prior to refill.

Rob

[PhilipA]

How else would the tanker get fuel into the underground tank?
Its all in the timing. See above.
Best to wait a couple of hours after you see a truck drop diesel if you have a CRD.
Regards Philip A

[90 Rangie]

Good timing, was about to ask if anyone had any trouble with fuel quality in central Australia. Planning to tow 3 ton van from Rockhampton to Darwin and down to the Rock. Would like to know best places to fill up. Happy to pay more for the fuel if it is better quality. Do not have long range tank so may take a couple of 20l fuel containers but will still be limited by range. Very happy to hear from others who have done the same tow.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/12/13.jpg

[PhilipA]

IMHO all high volume stations are OK.

I found Longreach expensive but the stations are high volume so should be OK.

The Shell depot on the Western side of Mt Isa was the cheapest for me last year and is by definition high volume.

Katherine is /was the cheapest in NT and there is a Coles Shell in the street behind the shopping Mall. It is very high Volume.

Three Ways is expensive but does large volume so is OK IMHO.

Regards Philip A

[p38arover]

IMHO all high volume stations are OK.

Doesn't that mean the tanks will be filled more often so there is more chance of filling after a tanker has just been?

[PhilipA]

They have bigger tanks,and anyway problems will soon be apparent when semis fill if they have problems.
Regards Philip A

[Kieren]

As an extension of this discussion, has anyone got a view on the impact of different brands of diesel on the 3.0l engines?

I've only had my 3.0l TDV6 for a month and haven't had a chance to get feel for any impacts of the brand of fuel. I used to have a Mitsubishi diesel and BP Ultimate gave me the best fuel consumption, Caltex next and Shell gave me the worst results.

Thanks and for the record absolutely loving being a LR owner!

[RHS58]

I'm not sure if it's right or wrong, but on another forum as the owner of another brand prior to LR, the consensus on that forum was BP Ultimate was best with highest and most consistent cetane rating, then Caltex Vortex then the others.

[PeterOZ]

As an extension of this discussion, has anyone got a view on the impact of different brands of diesel on the 3.0l engines?

I've only had my 3.0l TDV6 for a month and haven't had a chance to get feel for any impacts of the brand of fuel. I used to have a Mitsubishi diesel and BP Ultimate gave me the best fuel consumption, Caltex next and Shell gave me the worst results.

Thanks and for the record absolutely loving being a LR owner!

I've mainly used BP Ultimate in my D3 since it ws new in aug 07, MR auto said to use Caltex Vortex. Not sure I can tell any difference but if I go to one of the cheaper fuels boy do I notice a difference. It does not like the cheaper ones at all.

[~Rich~]

My company fuel card is for Caltex, I'd like to swap to BP but not for the price difference. ;)

I used that largest Mr Funnels funnel for my outback trips, especially when using jerry cans.

[90 Rangie]

Have any of you been able to use Mr funnel with bowser pumps with any success ?
If so which funnel, some people say that the twin filter one is slower than the smaller one as the smaller one you can set up a vortex that helps it flow down the funnel.
If so how long to put 60l into tank ?

[Melbourne Park]

Are people filling their Discos main tank with the funnel device? Because many Discos have the petrol connection preventative device ... I suspect that if a different sized filler is put into the fuel tank filler, then the Land Rover device might actuate ???

[Melbourne Park]

With my Prado D4D 150, there was a brochure from a third party supplier, who supplies to Toyota the water separator for the diesel fuel lines. The instructions were on how the device works, and also how to handle a fuel warning i.e. how to clean the filter when you get a warning.

But the Disco doesn't seem to have such a third party diesel water (and solids) filter ... at least, there was no separate brochure or booklet describing how important clean fuel really is.

- Does the disco have a decent bad fuel filter?
- Can you fit a third party one and who should do it for a still under warranty Disco?

Thanks

[goingbush]

What a load of bollocks.

Mr Filter funnels are a waste of time, Your D2 has one of the best filters and water separators already built in, right there in front of your back wheel.

where do you store your funnel when its not in use, in a hermetically sealed compartment ?? what about all the dust and crap that collects inside its spout while its not in use.

How often do you crack the tap on your factory filter / water separator and drain the water out - never , yet you stuff around with a stupid funnel at the bowser.

And not filling up whilst a tanker is dumping its load - what a crock .
Any **** that gets stirred up in the tank will never get past your factory filter.

[scarry]

And to follow up on the last post,i have filled from heaps of JC's,do it all the time,never had an issue.

Two things though,i have the fuel filter changed in the D4 EVERY service.
Secondly i often don't use the last few mLs of diesel in the Jerry,as sometimes i can see small things floating in it.

I also try to fill up at the larger servos.

[Melbourne Park]

What a load of bollocks.

Mr Filter funnels are a waste of time, Your D2 has one of the best filters and water separators already built in, right there in front of your back wheel.

where do you store your funnel when its not in use, in a hermetically sealed compartment ?? what about all the dust and crap that collects inside its spout while its not in use.

How often do you crack the tap on your factory filter / water separator and drain the water out - never , yet you stuff around with a stupid funnel at the bowser.

And not filling up whilst a tanker is dumping its load - what a crock .
Any **** that gets stirred up in the tank will never get past your factory filter.

I haven't got a that filter, but it sounds a good idea to me.

As far as filling up with a tanker filling the tasks - on the channel 31 4WD show, they demonstrated how particles and water hang around in suspension, simulating a tanker fill issue.

In the aeronautical industry, where they use Avgas, and low moisture high octane petroleum, they are restricted from filling for 24 hours after a tank is re-filled. And planes have filters in their fuel systems.

Unfortunately there are too many stories to ignore such issues. With Japanese 4WDs, people put in a 3rd party filter, for protection. I am not sure how many Discovery diesel drivers do that, or how much it might cost, and where one would install it in a Disco.

[Rick122]

I think some people are worrying too much about particulates and water getting through their fuel systems. It's unlikely that either would get through the particulate/coalescer filters in the servo to each bowser. Then you have a good filter/separator in your car already. They have a water sensor to let you know when there is excessive moisture buildup. If it comes on, stop and drain it out of the filter. Drain a bit off every day if you are worried about it. You would have to have a lot of water in the filter for it to get past the separator. Best practice is to try to keep your tank as near to full as you can, especially over night to minimise condensation buildup. IMO, the biggest issues with contamination occur from Jerry can filling.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

isnt a 30 micron filter big?
I use a 2 for my oil,,

[Rick122]

Good way to increase your oil pressure, running a 2 micron oil filter. Overkill if you ask me. Anyway, I think the factory fuel filter would be at least 5 micron, may even be 2 micron, which is about as good as you could get.
A rain drop is about 700 microns. Mist can go down to about 6 microns size. If you can see a particulate, it's bigger than 6 microns.

[goingbush]

Pedro using a 2 micron oil filter is stupid, its the same as not using a filter at all.

that 2 micron media will have blocked up almost immediately, all your oil is getting pumped through the bypass valve and not getting filtered at all . crazy


30-50 is about right for an oil filter

[Tombie]

Unfortunately there are too many stories to ignore such issues. With Japanese 4WDs, people put in a 3rd party filter, for protection. I am not sure how many Discovery diesel drivers do that, or how much it might cost, and where one would install it in a Disco.

Perhaps a visit outside the city to a Mine site may open your eyes a little to just how rare and bull**** these 'too many stories' are..

All the Mine vehicles are CRD - none run additional filtration..

Are filled from tanks that are filled every 2 days... Or Jerry Cans...

Nozzles etc are often covered in dust and dirt...

None have had a fuel system failure...... And were talking 30+ vehicles running well past 50,000+km per vehicle in that environment.

Yes some will come unstuck... we cant prevent everything.... But it is unlikely...

[goingbush]

Fuel Issue more likely caused by the addition of aftermarket sedimenters with the clear fuel bowl on the bottom, great idea you if can see if theres water in there.

Ever wondered why LandRover water seperators don't have a clear bowl, just a tap to drain off the water.

Guess what Algae needs to grow - Light . Guess where most of the algae problem are in diesel systems - around and past the auxillury fuel filter - weird huh ,

The other problem with fuel is not the crap that in the bottom of metal jerry cans, but from algae growing in your plastic jerry can - because its not light proof .

As for the myth of not buying diesel after / during the tanker filling them up . Come to think of it now , its weird Ive recently had no problem going straight to the bowser even with the tanker taking up half the servo, now I know why -- I love it - I won't sit in a queue .

[Bush_TM]

Hi guys,

Microbes can certainly grow in fuel, without light. Normally this is not an issue for your average motorist as they can take months to grow. Problems can be seen on farms (diesel) and remote airports (jet fuel) with low turnover. The risk for the general public is long term storage of fuel in jerry cans, which under the right conditions could see microbe growth. In addition, any water in a metal jerry can can cause erosion which further introduces particulates into the fuel.

The best advice is to always fill up using the same branded fuel. That way if there is an issue you can take it up with the supplier, and if the fuel quality is shown to be poor then you have a strong case for compensation.

[LandyAndy]

Perhaps a visit outside the city to a Mine site may open your eyes a little to just how rare and bull**** these 'too many stories' are..

All the Mine vehicles are CRD - none run additional filtration..

Are filled from tanks that are filled every 2 days... Or Jerry Cans...

Nozzles etc are often covered in dust and dirt...

None have had a fuel system failure...... And were talking 30+ vehicles running well past 50,000+km per vehicle in that environment.

Yes some will come unstuck... we cant prevent everything.... But it is unlikely...

Tombie.
You need to have a chat with the Tom Blackman,he is an olde school Diesel Injection specialist that we use to do our work.
He has plenty of failed minesite injectors and is being paid big money to find a reason for the failures and a fix for the failures in WA.We are talking toyota;)
;);););)
Its a huge problem over here,perhaps a few more than 30+ vehicles you mention;)
;);)
He suspects their direct import fuel is of poor quality,yet no other mine equipment using the fuel is suffering:):):):)
Andrew

[Rick122]

Toyota 1kd-ftv injectors have well known issues and not to do with mines or bad fuel. They have poorly designed injector seals, which can eventually lead to carbon buildup getting through the oil system and blocking the pickup. I believe Toyota now has a recall to fit aluminum injector seals in place of the original copper. Some also have cold knocking issues and I have also read of some fuel tanks (Landcruiser) rusting.

[Tombie]

Rick is on it... It's subject to a recall.

Even my D4 was filled regularly from Jerry Cans until I got the long range tank because I couldn't make it back to Glendambo without extra top up.

Never had an issue..

Bit different if you were filling from a rarely used Pastoral tank that's only used once a month to top up the tractor!