Russians marching

[jimr1]

I watched some of the Russian 70 year end of ww2 celebrations on the TV . I couldn't help being impressed by the way there solders marched , only the very fit could keep up with that pace , excellent timing !!.. Jim

[BMKal]

Even the Russian Seals participated in the march ................. ;)

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/27776481/seals-twirl-show-russian-patriotism-in-bizarre-video/

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Does the Dakar have a class to suit the ICBM carrier?:angel::eek:

[mox]

Yanks are a disgrace. A million soldiers from the Soviet Union died getting the Nazis out of Ukraine alone, and they had by far the highest number of casualties of any country in WW2. Yet Yanks blatantly organised a coup to depose the democratically elected government in Ukraine and install their stooges with the help of Nazi thugs. Then they pressured a lot of other countries to boycott the 70th anniversary of VE day in Moscow - after having the western mainstream media repeatedly hammering lies about supposed "Russian aggression." Also trying to falsely blame the East Ukrainian so called "rebels" and Russians for shooting down MH17. Everyone with half a brain who watched this story unfold on alternative media, which western "powers that be" have little control over realises that this was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane.

[101 Ron]

Some very broad statements made.
There is always Two sides to every story.
What I do know without British and specially US help in materials the Germans would have done a lot more damage in WW2 to Russia.
They also stepped in a big way during WW2 to stop the Japanese advance on Australia when no one else would or could.
I also notice most of the parties fighting each other in Africa or the middle East are using Russian made fire arms and equipment.
I wonder if Russia stopped selling weapons to the warring parties if world peace would be improved and the Americans would also need to less of the same as the people involved wouldn't have as many tools to hurt themselves.
I feel the last post had the wrong undertones for what was really a praise about the quality of the Russian soldier in the first post.

[87County]

Yanks are a disgrace. A million soldiers from the Soviet Union died getting the Nazis out of Ukraine alone, and they had by far the highest number of casualties of any country in WW2. Yet Yanks blatantly organised a coup to depose the democratically elected government in Ukraine and install their stooges with the help of Nazi thugs. Then they pressured a lot of other countries to boycott the 70th anniversary of VE day in Moscow - after having the western mainstream media repeatedly hammering lies about supposed "Russian aggression." Also trying to falsely blame the East Ukrainian so called "rebels" and Russians for shooting down MH17. Everyone with half a brain who watched this story unfold on alternative media, which western "powers that be" have little control over realises that this was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane.

???

[jimr1]

Thank you Ron , you are quite correct , My post was about the parade only . I thought that the solders that were marching , were marching to a standard that was superb , I noticed that the outside ranks looked strait ahead , while the other solders were looking to there right , many smiling . I also noticed that in the Armored vehicles , one of the crew in each vehicle tilt there head upwards . Jim ..

[Eevo]

Yanks are a disgrace. A million soldiers from the Soviet Union died getting the Nazis out of Ukraine alone, and they had by far the highest number of casualties of any country in WW2.

so we should reward the country with the worst tactics and who threw away the most soldiers lives?

[Dark61]

My Son feels very negative towards the Yanks - I keep reminding him if it wasn't for them sending a lot of their young men overseas to fight and die , he wouldn't be here.
cheers,
D

[Pickles2]

My Son feels very negative towards the Yanks - I keep reminding him if it wasn't for them sending a lot of their young men overseas to fight and die , he wouldn't be here.
cheers,
D
Thank You, at least some-one remembers, & speaks the truth.
It is very true that the Russians lost more than any other Country in WW11. It is also true that they could not have defended their Country without U.S. aid which was transported to Russia's Northern Ports at great risk by the very brave sailors, many of whom lost THEIR lives, of the Merchant Navy.
Pickles.

[mox]

so we should reward the country with the worst tactics and who threw away the most soldiers lives?

Need to remember that Germany had a very well equipped and organised military at the start of ww2 compared with the Allies. When they started advancing into Russia, Russians recognised they would have soon been defeated if they put all resources into resistance near the border so they retreated. Germans got to about 30 km from Moscow in December 1941,. They then had long strung out supply and communications lines subject to guerrillas attacks and their troops which were ill equipped for it stuck in Russia at the start of winter. It seems that after the Battle of Moscow, some German military leaders recognised that they were unlikely to be able to defeat Russians and wanted to try peace negotiations.

[mox]

Regarding the comment above by 101Ron above blaming Russians selling weapons for exacerbating problems in the Middle East and Africa. Seems to me the Yanks are far worse. Apparently they currently provide about 55% of stuff on the international arms market. Note how they like stooge governments in other countries who will allow US banksters and corporations a free hand rather than making the country's national interest first priority. Also allow US military bases on their territory. Proper examination of details of what goes on shows that nowadays the US largely creates wars. Need to check alternative media sources rather than just the western mainstream media propaganda. Seems to me views of international news from Russia and Iran has sometimes been more truthful lately. I think probably best single one to keep an eye on is www.globalresearch.ca (http://www.globalresearch.ca) (from Canada)

[Pickles2]

Yep, I guess you also forgot to mention, something that has a very particular relevance to YOU & me, is that without the "presence" of "The Yanks" (your words), in our area, during WW11, where "The Yanks" lost many more soldiers than anyone else, YOU & I would not be living the way we do, today.
Pickles.

[101 Ron]

Regarding the comment above by 101Ron above blaming Russians selling weapons for exacerbating problems in the Middle East and Africa. Seems to me the Yanks are far worse. Apparently they currently provide about 55% of stuff on the international arms market. Note how they like stooge governments in other countries who will allow US banksters and corporations a free hand rather than making the country's national interest first priority. Also allow US military bases on their territory. Proper examination of details of what goes on shows that nowadays the US largely creates wars. Need to check alternative media sources rather than just the western mainstream media propaganda. Seems to me views of international news from Russia and Iran has sometimes been more truthful lately. I think probably best single one to keep an eye on is www.globalresearch.ca (http://www.globalresearch.ca) (from Canada)

Mox I don't like getting into peoples different views of the world but in this part of the world you would be a minority.
Free press in Russia ?????????? don't think so.......say something bad about the government and see what happens........plenty of examples to quote.
Run against the government in politics in Russia and you run the risk of being dead or poisoned.
The reason the Russia was so poorly positioned to handle it self at the start of the WW2 invasion was the great purges of the military any anyone of education etc.......millions of people have been killed by its own government.
Blocking troops in WW2 helped bring up the Russian death rate in WW2 with other things
The Russian govt was in bed with Hitler and was supprized by the turn around.
The holes in the front of the MH17 plane was not from bullets but from a Russian missile which explodes in front of the aircraft and the shrapnel/explosion brings down the plane.
Bullets shooting down a heavy airliner ,not really likely and the bullet holes would be in the rear of the air frame or shot from the rear.
Every time I see a middle eastern loonie with a gun it is a AK47 and rarely a M16.
I know all this because I watch both western and foreign media and search for both sides of a story and not just one.
In this country people can express their views freely and we get to view both sides of the media.
I still wonder how praise for Russian soldiers brings about a out burst of anti America .
I think some sort of political site and and not a Landrover site would be a better place to express this sort of thing and I am very happy to leave hate of different peoples well alone and get into talking Landrovers which is AULRO is all about.........I am personally very much over hate and trying to express it in writing and getting into debates which have no ending.
Ron

[cripesamighty]

A couple of the things from the Victory Parade you probably didn't see......


Russia's Brand New Tank Just Broke Down In The Middle Of Moscow (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-brand-new-tank-just-broke-down-in-the-middle-of-1702919400)

SA-11 "Buk" Missile System Catches Fire During Victory Day Parade (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sa-11-buk-missile-system-catches-fire-during-victory-1703419253)

[Eevo]

Need to remember that Germany had a very well equipped and organised military at the start of ww2 compared with the Allies.
yes





It seems that after the Battle of Moscow, some German military leaders recognised that they were unlikely to be able to defeat Russians and wanted to try peace negotiations.

no.
different strategy and a unified command was recognised as needed. heer hitler wouldn't allow either.

[Eevo]

The reason the Russia was so poorly positioned to handle it self at the start of the WW2 invasion was the great purges of the military any anyone of education etc.......millions of people have been killed by its own government.
10 points




The Russian govt was in bed with Hitler and was supprized by the turn around.

i wouldn't say they were in bed. they had a you scratch my back, i scratch your back relationship but it was always guarded.
it was a functional relationship, not a ideological one.

[Eevo]

Yep, I guess you also forgot to mention, something that has a very particular relevance to YOU & me, is that without the "presence" of "The Yanks" (your words), in our area, during WW11, where "The Yanks" lost many more soldiers than anyone else, YOU & I would not be living the way we do, today.
Pickles.

lol
except that japan had no serious plans to invade aust.
things would be different, we wouldnt be speaking japanese but we would be driving japanese cars, watching tv on japanese made tv's. etc etc
oh, we do that now, haha

[sashadidi]

Also trying to falsely blame the East Ukrainian so called "rebels" and Russians for shooting down MH17. Everyone with half a brain who watched this story unfold on alternative media, which western "powers that be" have little control over realises that this was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane.

Gosh Mox even the Russians are now moving to admit it was not a fighter plane especially one that could not fly that high...
I am still not sure why Ukraine would have a buk there as the "miners" from the Donbas had no planes to attack them with...
http://echo.msk.ru/blog/serguei_parkhomenko/1543584-echo/
open in google translate
the parade is great but were there any official Ukrainians in the parade , I mean how many million died 1941 to 1945 defending the Soviet Union why were they not acknowledged by Russia so there are faults everywhere....

[mox]

101Ron, maybe I am in the minority largely because I look at news sources other that the western mainstream media. There is now much less diversity in ownership and control than in the past and the views promoted by "powers that be" ie governments, banks and corporations are promoted more. By contrast in Russia today there is much more diversity and freedom of the media than under the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.


Re the shooting down of MH17, those who have studied details know that several things show that the Ukrainians and Yanks have tried to cover up what really happened and tried the Hitler trick of repeating lies often enough to try and get people to believe them. Both sides had the Buk ground to air missiles, which would be close to limit of their capability to shoot down a plane flying at around 30,000 feet. However, there were no reports of any been seen flying along or the cloud of trailing smoke they apparently leave in broad daylight. Problem for western powers is they were not first to main crash site so could not censor photos of it taken and widely circulated on the Internet. A retired German Lufthansa pilot, Peter Haisenko was first to publicly draw attention to features of photos of panels from the sides of MH17 cockpit. Bullet holes from bullets going in both directions from both panels as if plane had been shot at from both sides/underneath. The eventual official report described these as from "high energy objects", insinuating they may have been from an exploding missile. I think a later version of these same photos circulated by western media were probably photoshopped to make holes look more like ones from missile shrapnel. Would be interesting to compare saved copies of early and latter circulated photos.


Russian military intelligence released what is probably truthful info about MH17 being followed by one or two Ukrainian fighter planes. Meanwhile Yanks apparently had a spy satellite above the area looking down. No comment on what info it provided. Or why MH17 was diverted north through a war zone rather than the route that would have been expected. Or the attempted silencing of air traffic controllers. Or the obvious cover up of evidence contained in the plane black boxes that did not support the official story supported by the US and Ukraine governments. Just endless repeats of claims of "Russian aggression.".

[BMKal]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/941.jpg

[Pickles2]

lol
except that japan had no serious plans to invade aust.
things would be different, we wouldnt be speaking japanese but we would be driving japanese cars, watching tv on japanese made tv's. etc etc
oh, we do that now, haha
"No plans to invade"?...Gotta disagree with that one.
A friend of mine I've mentioned on here before, Grahame Walsh, as well as Rock Art, He was big into WW11....He had lots of Jap stuff, including several Jap maps of Australia, suitably marked, militarily, in Japanese.
IMHO, there was no way they're gonna fight tooth & nail for PNG if they ain't coming down here.
They had to come here, they ain't gonna be happy with conquering the whole of S.E. Asia, & just leave us alone. No way.
And in addition to all of that, Australia would then become a massive arsenal from which they could be attacked,......which is sort of what happened anyway isn't it?
Pickles.

[85 county]

Yanks are a disgrace. A million soldiers from the Soviet Union died getting the Nazis out of Ukraine alone, and they had by far the highest number of casualties of any country in WW2.

actually an estimated 20 million soviet citizens died during the 1942-1945 conflict front campaigns. and by saying soviet citizens this included s the democratic free states that the CCCP invaded in conjunction with the Nazis in 1939.
regardless, the CCCP did suffer the highest total number of deaths. it did not have the highest number of deaths per population nor the highest number of deaths per Klm2 of ground taken.




Yet Yanks blatantly organised a coup to depose the democratically elected government in Ukraine and install their stooges with the help of Nazi thugs.

you mean the Russian government pressured the Ukrainian president to back track on accepting a UN finance package, who did so with out consulting his own democratic elected other members of Parliament. which led to the Ukrainian government to pass a vote of no confidence in there priminister, and replaced him. i think that same thing has happened a few times in Australia. the only difference is we do not have Russian little green men who take holidays with tanks to dispose a democratic elected government.

sort of the same as " in your words" the Nazis took Austria. but thay were little Gray men. oh how times have changed NOT




Then they pressured a lot of other countries to boycott the 70th anniversary of VE day in Moscow

i suspect that not much pressure was needed, i mean it is Russia who really wants to go there, the place is a hole, any excuse is a good excuse.



after having the western mainstream media repeatedly hammering lies about supposed "Russian aggression."

HA HA guess you haven't read any mainstream Russian government own media then, THE WEST WANTS US WEAK. THE WEST SHOULD RESPECT US bla bla bla same record no one cares . cry wolf




Also trying to falsely blame the East Ukrainian so called "rebels" and Russians for shooting down MH17. Everyone with half a brain who watched this story unfold on alternative media, which western "powers that be" have little control over realises that this was shot down with bullets from a Ukrainian fighter plane.

wow so how can a Ukrainian, Russian built fighter ground attack plane with a ceiling of 20 000 feet shoot down M17 at 30 000. it was shot down by a missile, the only question was it a Russian missile or a Ukrainian? ether way it was Russian built.

but logic dictates that since the rebels do not have any air assets the Ukrainians had not deployed there air defence asset's but since the rebels had been taking a hammering from the Ukrainian air force they decided to deploy air defensive assets. Guess the green men were not so well trained.

a few years ago Putin had his Bipolar speech, i guess his English translator was a Russian because the west thought he was asking for a mental disorder, not surprising really it was Putin speaking.

But hi May Day speech sort of made things clear with his statements that he believes that the USA wants a unipolar would ( sheesh putin should really get a new interpreter)

the problem with this thinking is that in a Bipolar world as Putin envisions would actually make the USA stronger. as it was during the cold war, each country had to decide what side of the fence they sat on. in a unipolar would there is no fence, so as a result where a country was a supporter of the US before, today they do not have to be because there is no external or theoretical ideological threat. we can do what we want a bugger the yanks.

but is putin keeps on like this then we will have to spend more on tanks guns ships etc or what ever the yanks tell us to do.

[Eevo]

IMHO, there was no way they're gonna fight tooth & nail for PNG if they ain't coming down here.


given that the japs withdrew from PNG, I think you're argument holds no weight.

[akula]

Total Soviet losses in WW2 were 27 million. Can you imagine that?! That's more than the population of Australia.....

And now the likes of Right Sector and Svoboda (who at best could be described as extreme far-right) and a number of US nationals in key positions (e.g., US Vice Presidents son Hunter Biden) have been installed within Ukrainian Government following the US backed coup is framed by our ostensibly free press as 'Russian Aggression' - go figure!

[Pickles2]

But why did they withdraw, A few Aussie soldiers might have a view on that.....It sure wasn't on their (Japs) terms.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

..It sure wasn't on their (Japs) terms.
Pickles.

actually it was.
japan disengaged as they were going to be cut off from their supply line if they didnt.

[85 county]

Total Soviet losses in WW2 were 27 million. Can you imagine that?! That's more than the population of Australia.....


well you are including the soviet exacuted and slave labour deaths in that number

And now the likes of Right Sector and Svoboda (who at best could be described as extreme far-right) and a number of US nationals in key positions (e.g., US Vice Presidents son Hunter Biden) have been installed within Ukrainian Government following the US backed coup is framed by our ostensibly free press as 'Russian Aggression' - go figure!

a number of us citizens?? name them all!!

Hunter Biden sort of got the sack in the USA, to much white stuff up his nose. he has not been installed in the Ukrainian government as you stupidly point out. he has been employed by Burisma Holdings a Ukrainian privately owned gas company. as a Lawyer which he is IE a lawyer. and he is based in the USA

there was no US backed coup and yes it is Russian aggression, Putin has stated himself that he is not willing to accept NATO or a EU country so close to its border. we are seeing his resolve in this matter. as for Russian press, well it is all government owned now days. no free press in russia

[85 county]

But why did they withdraw, A few Aussie soldiers might have a view on that.....It sure wasn't on their (Japs) terms.
Pickles.

actually Evo is correct, the japs got within sight of PM then pulled back. there was no way they could mount an attack on PM, they just did not have the resorses to do so. they were inflicted with the same conditions the diggers had to face on the trail.

the two key things or reasons for the diggers being pushed back were the loss of the airfield and the bombing of the dc3s at PM. the japs had losed air superiority so any notion of resupplying that was was out of the picture.

the jap withdrawal is very simlur to the aussie withdrawal ( with out the cannibalism) the aussie advance was a result of logistics, ie air drops and the recapture of the airfield.

now if i remember correctly, the chocks were not allowed to take there lewis guns as thay has to stay in PM for base defence. i remember reading how the aussies were over looking the airfield after having just losed it, watched the japs for up and bitching they could have cleaned them up with the lewis.

the japs had no plans to invade Australia, but that was not known at the time and quite correctly so. there plan was to surround and cut off Australia. this plan involved the invasion of New Zealand. with Australia surrounded they could dictate terms.

this post war information actually adds more gravity to the achievements of the chockos on the trail.

[Pickles2]

No worries, I ain't no military expert.
But the point I'm making is that it was always the Japs' intent to "be Here", one way or another, it was their aim to conquer Australia.
Pickles.

[Orkney 90]

My goodness, the Cold War is alive and well going by what I have read so far in this thread...

As I have mentioned in another post, the Russians have always been good at ingenuity, teamwork and getting things done. That is why some in the West are so scared of them.

I myself have always envied and have a great respect of the Soviets/Russians.

Mind you, I originally come from Eastern Europe, and I have had family members who lost their lives fighting with the Red Army against the Nazis. The thing to remember here is that during WW2, the Soviet Union was an ALLY with the West, so all of those who claim that we owe our way of living to the Americans need to re-think.

America could NOT have won WW2 without help from the Soviet Union, and without the Soviets, Europe and indeed the rest of the world as a consequence would look entirely different now had Hitler and the Nazis won.

Don't get me wrong, I am not discounting the contributions made by America, or England for that matter but in all fairness the Germans lost the war because of the efforts of Stalin and the Soviet Union. Also because of the stupidity of Hitler when he decided to attack the Soviet Union.

[mox]

Note how 85 County finishes up with a lot of name calling against Vladimir Putin, who has contributed a lot to rebuilding the strength of the Russian Federation after the breakup of the Soviet Union and collapse of communism. Obviously the Soviet Union was dominated by Russians and many of the other ethnic groups in countries formerly part of it hate them. The Russian approach more recently has been largely to try and stay out of where locals obviously do not want them. Note how in Georgia, the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia objected to domination by the Georgian government, which invaded them. Russians sent their military in, quickly kicked the Georgians out and withdrew. Then refused requests from these areas to join the Russian Federation, probably regarding them as likely future "cans of worms". There was obviously strong support in Crimea, which previously had a long history as a Russian territory to rejoin Russia. Seems the Russians also do not want integration of the pro Russian, or more importantly anti western Ukraine area with them. However, the recent war has shown that now western Ukraine could only invade and govern the eastern area with the help of large outside military forces. There has been widespread civil disobedience against conscription for the main largely poorly organised army with low morale. The obvious plan for a government sympathetic to US interests to take over all of Ukraine, especially Crimea and allow them to have military bases next to Russia did not go very well.


Note how USA and to some extent other western powers resort to various tactics, starting with propaganda to facilitate "regime change" in countries that act strongly in their own national interest when this opposes interests of the US and its corporations and banksters. In Ukraine and Russia, governments were taking back more control after excesses the other way after collapse of communism. Western "powers that be" liked Boris Yeltsin, under who they were allowed much more of a free hand than under Putin , who they have been largely unsuccessfully trying to undermine.

[Orkney 90]

And at the risk of falling into the loony category, I still have many family members living in Russia now. And they, together with friends and colleagues all say the same thing. That Vladimir Putin is the best thing that has happened to Russia since Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. This feeling towards Putin is genuine, not some misplaced fear for the regime.

When has anyone heard that our Prime Minister is the best thing to happen to our country? Or that Barack Obama is the best thing for the United States?

At the end of the day we can all think and believe whatever we want. My opinions are not some made up propaganda, but genuine faith in those who I love and trust the most...my family. And if they love Vladimir Putin and what he has done for them and their country, who am I to disagree?

[Pickles2]

And at the risk of falling into the loony category, I still have many family members living in Russia now. And they, together with friends and colleagues all say the same thing. That Vladimir Putin is the best thing that has happened to Russia since Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. This feeling towards Putin is genuine, not some misplaced fear for the regime.

When has anyone heard that our Prime Minister is the best thing to happen to our country? Or that Barack Obama is the best thing for the United States?

At the end of the day we can all think and believe whatever we want. My opinions are not some made up propaganda, but genuine faith in those who I love and trust the most...my family. And if they love Vladimir Putin and what he has done for them and their country, who am I to disagree?
Why would you be in the "Loony" category?...I haven't noticed any evidence of that!
Well, we're all different, and in this Country, at the moment, we are able to be.
I don't know anyone currently living in Russia, but my local shoe repairer is Russian, & He knows plenty of people there,...let me say that His opinion is a little different to yours, particularly for ordinary/"lower" people.
However, I watch & listen to Putin, & whilst I don't like him, & I don't trust him, I can understand that his very strong personality would be attractive to some, & for sure, I believe that he has Russian interests at heart. Whether those interests are in our best interests, could be another matter, & remains to be seen.
Again, I think Obama is doing as good a job as He can, with the restraints that He has, and there are plenty that say the same about Tony,...all depends who you listen to.
Pickles.

[85 county]

No worries, I ain't no military expert.
But the point I'm making is that it was always the Japs' intent to "be Here", one way or another, it was their aim to conquer Australia.
Pickles.

quite correct, there aim was to control, opposed to invade. the end result is effectively the same. or would have been the same.

[85 county]

My goodness, the Cold War is alive and well going by what I have read so far in this thread...

As I have mentioned in another post, the Russians have always been good at ingenuity, teamwork and getting things done. That is why some in the West are so scared of them.

I myself have always envied and have a great respect of the Soviets/Russians.

Mind you, I originally come from Eastern Europe, and I have had family members who lost their lives fighting with the Red Army against the Nazis. The thing to remember here is that during WW2, the Soviet Union was an ALLY with the West, so all of those who claim that we owe our way of living to the Americans need to re-think.

America could NOT have won WW2 without help from the Soviet Union, and without the Soviets, Europe and indeed the rest of the world as a consequence would look entirely different now had Hitler and the Nazis won.

Don't get me wrong, I am not discounting the contributions made by America, or England for that matter but in all fairness the Germans lost the war because of the efforts of Stalin and the Soviet Union. Also because of the stupidity of Hitler when he decided to attack the Soviet Union.
good post and quite correct

there are some other points, Hitler stuffed up the invasion, starting to late thanks to Crete, changing direction 1/2 way into the invasion etc.

but what is not recognised is the fact ( morales aside) is that Russia fought a brilliant rearguard action all the way to the turn around. thay losed 200 000 men and equipent in the south becouse thay saw a Nazi pincer movement being formed, as a counter thay moved there tanks to the north thinking the nazis would not get there tanks over the river to the south. the failing was that thay did get tanks across and managed to capture thousands of russian troops.

Stalingrad, the soviets are often criticized for not letting the civilians evacuate, this criticism is not worrented. the British in Belgium were hampered greatly by civilian refugees. this is documented fact. the Nazis would bomb a town not for any strategic reason but to scare the civilians onto the roads. they then used fighter aircraft to Sheppard the civilians on to the roads and head-first into the advancing British troops. effectively stopping them. up until Stalingrad the soviets had used a scorched earth policy which included the evacuation of civilians which were needed in the factory's. so up until that time the soviets spent a lot of effort in looking after there citizens.

there were two therories in basic war- craft and its attitude towards civilians. it was articulated by a prussian officer fighting with the Russians ( as the prussian army were allies) in the defeat of Nepolian ( first time)

the two opposing arguments were. 1 Total war, where using and the killing of civilians was warranted in the argument that total war would be shorter and that the civilians would more quickly return to normal life.

2 limited war, where civilian or non-combatant life was to be protected at all costs because that was the purpose of the war in the first place.

therein lays the two overly simplistic but opposing cultures separating the western front and the eastern front.

[Pickles2]

Like I said, I ain't no expert, but IMHO wasn't the delayed attack/invasion on Russia attributable in part to Hitler's inability to win air superiority over the R.A.F. in the Battle Of Britain, which he was unable to do. The time He kept trying, He was not focussed on Russia, but then He gave up on the UK & subsequently had a go at Russia, the aforementioned delay eventually having a disasterous affect, as he was unable to achieve his goals before the onset of the Russian winter, which otherwise might not have been the case.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

no, it was due to the italians being unable to take Greece and needing German help which put the timetable back 6 weeks.

[Pickles2]

Gotta disagree with ya there too!!!...85 County where are ya?
Pickles.

[Eevo]

simple wiki check


The postponement of Barbarossa from the initially planned date of 15 May to the actual invasion date of 22 June 1941 (a 38-day delay) occurred due to a combination of reasons. Namely, the Balkans Campaign required a diversion of troops and resources which hampered preparations, and an unusually wet winter kept rivers at full flood until late spring. The full floods could have discouraged an earlier attack, even if it was unlikely to have happened before the end of the Balkans Campaign. The importance of the delay is still debated.[51] William Shirer argues that Hitler's Balkan Campaign had delayed the commencement of Barbarossa by several weeks and thereby jeopardized it.[52] Shirer cites the deputy chief of the German General Staff in 1941 Friedrich Paulus, who claimed the campaign resulted in a delay of "about five weeks."[53] This figure is corroborated by both the German Naval War Diary and Gerd von Rundstedt.[53] Antony Beevor names a variety of factors that delayed Barbarossa, including the delay in distributing motor transport, problems of fuel distribution; or the difficulty in establishing forward airfields for the Luftwaffe.[54]

[Pickles2]

Eevo, yes, I agree, I've learned something, good to talk to a "Historian". Being an old "Pom", I guess I might have different thinking.
So, you are right, however, in terms of the Battle of Britain, there are various references to, "after failing to win air superiority",...Invasion of England etc etc, there are many quotations "Hitler then turned his attention to Russia",.....so surely there must've been some contribution to the delay,....but obviously not important as I thought.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

Eevo, yes, I agree, I've learned something, good to talk to a "Historian". Being an old "Pom", I guess I might have different thinking.
So, you are right, however, in terms of the Battle of Britain, there are various references to, "after failing to win air superiority",...Invasion of England etc etc, there are many quotations "Hitler then turned his attention to Russia",.....so surely there must've been some contribution to the delay,....but obviously not important as I thought.
Pickles.

i believe heer hitler only asked for russian invasion plans after he "lost interest" in britan.

if you want a real argument,

would britan have survived a german invasion...

[Pickles2]

Well, I don't want an "argument" at all.
A "discussion"?...Yes.
Would they (England) have survived?
Well, depends how much time they gave England to "prepare". I know there's the Royal Navy to consider as well, but although I am an old Pom, grew up in post war England etc, I believe that a properly prepared, undelayed attack, could have resulted in a German victory?
Pickles.

[Eevo]

Well, I don't want an "argument" at all.
A "discussion"?...Yes.
Would they (England) have survived?
Well, depends how much time they gave England to "prepare". I know there's the Royal Navy to consider as well, but although I am an old Pom, grew up in post war England etc, I believe that a properly prepared, undelayed attack, could have resulted in a German victory?
Pickles.

you mentioned more time for the poms to prepare, what about more time for the jerrys to prepare...

proper landing craft, better/different air strategy

the raf could of been defeated if the germans air strategy didnt change every few days.

use of italian troops

giving air crews training on attacking navy units

having proper landing craft

better supply aircraft/system

use of fallschirmjager capture airfields (remember, this is pre crete)

[jimr1]

i believe heer hitler only asked for russian invasion plans after he "lost interest" in britan.

if you want a real argument,

would britan have survived a german invasion...
This has drifted away from my post , about Russian solders marching , and how very smart and fit they looked ! As for getting into an argument , this post was never put up to cause , or start any arguments !!.. Jim

[Eevo]

its moved away cause marching is boring.

[Pickles2]

you mentioned more time for the poms to prepare, what about more time for the jerrys to prepare...

proper landing craft, better/different air strategy

the raf could of been defeated if the germans air strategy didnt change every few days.

use of italian troops

giving air crews training on attacking navy units

having proper landing craft

better supply aircraft/system

use of fallschirmjager capture airfields (remember, this is pre crete)
Well, in so many (fewer) words "properly prepared", isn't that what I said?
Pickles.

[Eevo]

Well, in so many (fewer) words "properly prepared", isn't that what I said?
Pickles.

maybe, but you only mentioned the British being prepared.
and unfortunately, thats only what history looks at.

[Orkney 90]

its moved away cause marching is boring.

Only if you have never marched...

Those Russians marching through Red Square certainly do not looked bored!

[Pickles2]

maybe, but you only mentioned the British being prepared.
and unfortunately, thats only what history looks at.
That is not what I said, Read the last line of my post again.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

Only if you have never marched...


lol, i guess 5 years doesnt count for much now days

[Eevo]

That is not what I said, Read the last line of my post again.
Pickles.

im not understanding
you only talked about the brits being prepared.

[Pickles2]

im not understanding
you only talked about the brits being prepared.
No worries, you're misreading my post, ...in the last line, I'm referring to the GERMANS being "Properly Prepared".
Pickles.

[85 county]

Gotta disagree with ya there too!!!...85 County where are ya?
Pickles.

sorry mate Evo is correct again.

think of it this way, Germany needed resources, hence the Norway campaign.

having taken most of Europe his need for resources was even greater.

look at the time. he had cut a deal with the soviets so his back door was safe. Stalin was busy killing his own people to maintain his own power base. and wiping the peasants to produce more food, which was being sold to Germany along with other raw materials.

Germany although doing well in blockading England with the Uboat campaign it is often forgotten that England was also blockading Germany. the Nazis had to do something or they would die the same way as they did in WW1.

at the oubrake of war Hitler had no intention of invading England, he regarded the English as being the same stock as the Germans ( he has a point angles and Saxons). there were many mistakes made silly stuff like miscounting the number of aircraft, IE an English squadron is larger than a German one. so the English had more aircraft than they thought, ( NB the poms made the same mistake)

in short he needed to take out England to open the pommy blockade and safeguard his shipping. choice 1, choice 2 was clear out the med but with Malta and the poms doing well in north Africa that was out. he needed food and oil and mineral resources and Russia had that.

it was seen by the Germans as a simple solution, partly because of there own propaganda about the Slavic peoples and that the open country suited there fighting style.

so that's the reason and this time Hitler had the full support of the German generals. BUT

splitting his southern army towards the oil fields and away from Stalingrad was as a result of the break out at tubrook and Rommel first defeat. the general plan was to have the southern army drive though Russia and onto Iran ( nazi sympathy there). into Vichy Syria and knock out the poms from behind. BUT that was to happen after the fall off Russia. the poms brake out of egipt under AK ( not monty) and the largest tank battle to-date ( 750 poms 400 Nazis) pushed Rommel back to his starting point of 9 months earlier. thus putting pressure on Hitler to split his southern army to drive south thus arguably saving Stalingrad. this spit was reversed latter but the damage was done since thay were not able to brake though to the Stalingrad German troops.

as a side note, my grandmothers oldest brother was flying P39s from Iran and up to Stalingrad to fight, he is still there. her youngest brother at the same time was flying hurricanes from just out of St Peterburg. he is still there. i notice that Russia during my years living there never mentioned the kiwi airmen who were the only fighter wings active in those two theatres at that time

[85 county]

i believe heer hitler only asked for russian invasion plans after he "lost interest" in britan.

if you want a real argument,

would Britain have survived a German invasion...

short answer NO. the details of the Nazi invasion plans are well known if you wish to hunt them out. not well publicised because it fly s in the face of common knowledge.

the landing sites in the south of England are known and were actuality weak points, they has enough barges and shipping to achieve this easily. but as we all know air superiority was needed first. and we all know that story.

NB the invasion of Crete plan was just lifted from operation sea lion and adapted.. not well known is the sea arm of the Crete invasion which had the attention of Fryburg ( and every other pommy officer including Churchill) was wiped out by the navy ( bloody good job)

who would have thought that the air arm of the invasion would be so bloody big, well it was a first in history.

[Eevo]

we can always change the plan with the knowledge of hindsight.


im not convinced they had enough barges.
plus the barges they had were designed for river crossings, not english channel crossings.

it depends what you mean by air superiority being needed.
it was pre-condition of the plan.
but its not needed for military movements, it just makes everything easier.
plenty of other german plans went ahead without air superiority, and succeeded

[jimr1]

If you start mixing historical facts , then adding hypothetical s in you could go on all day . We will never know what the outcome would have been . I don't think the Germans would have stood a chance ! I watch the BBC show dads army , and let me tell you they were ready !!.. Jim :D

[Eevo]

If you start mixing historical facts , then adding hypothetical s in you could go on all day .
you got a hot date waiting?




I watch the BBC show dads army , and let me tell you they were ready !!.. Jim :D

thats the conclusive proof i like to see :)

[85 county]

we can always change the plan with the knowledge of hindsight.


im not convinced they had enough barges.
plus the barges they had were designed for river crossings, not english channel crossings.

it depends what you mean by air superiority being needed.
it was pre-condition of the plan.
but its not needed for military movements, it just makes everything easier.
plenty of other german plans went ahead without air superiority, and succeeded


what, get off the grass

[Eevo]

what, get off the grass

lol

would you like to hear my grand plan of how germany could of won ww2?

[85 county]

lol

would you like to hear my grand plan of how germany could of won ww2?

no,

[Eevo]

no,

das ist eine Schande

[85 county]

das ist eine Schande

nein, eine Erleichterung

[Eevo]

nein, eine Erleichterung

lustig

[bob10]

The Royal Navy saved GB from invasion, not the RAF, Bob


A Destiny of Failure ? Germany's plans to invade England during WWII | The Fabius Maximus website (http://fabiusmaximus.com/2012/03/04/36199/)

[85 county]

The Royal Navy saved GB from invasion, not the RAF, Bob


A Destiny of Failure ? Germany's plans to invade England during WWII | The Fabius Maximus website (http://fabiusmaximus.com/2012/03/04/36199/)

interesting read, but floored in its argument.

if we were to look at the Nazis having gained air superiority IE there is no RAF.

so look at Dunkirk, the British losed 243 ship including about 10 warships?
at this time ( Dunkirk) the Nazis stated ( after the war) that they had actually losed air superiority totally. the Nazi airfield were still in Germany and as a result the time over target was minimal, worse than latter in the blitz. the RAF and Nazis losed aircraft at the same rate about 1 to 1 or about 150 each.

my point is that with out air superiority the Nazis still managed to sink 243 ships.

also look at the pre blitz channel shipping loses, again this is with the RAF and nazis running with loses of 1 to 1

other glaring examples, SBDs accounted for 90% of the Japanese shipping loses.

i would argue the generally accepted view, that had the nazis not switched to civilian targets it would have taken another 3 weeks to completely destroy the RAF ( not the commonly publicised 3 days)

the Nazis with air superiority would have rendered the RN infective in stopping a Nazi invasion as per there now known invasion plans.

not only would the RN been decimated by the Luftwaffe they would have arrived to late to interrupt the initial invasion.

Having said all that., that case is true in the Nazi schedule for invasion was maintained.

the RAF resistance and final destruction would have pushed the invasion of England ( as it did) to late in the season. while the initial invasion would have been successful, the following resupply and logistical tasks supplied from Europe would have been severely hampered, higher seas, bad flying weather cloud, poor visibility would have rendered the Luftwaffe ineffective.

add to that, as the Nazi front spread win its girth thinning the troops, garrison duties, further thinning the troops. hampered resupply for the above reasons. the almost suicidal resolve of the poms themselves, and most certainly a suicidal royal Navy.

so a successful landing and invasion up to the point of maybe capturing London. but i doubt they would have gotten much further than that, a Vietnam even

[bob10]

interesting read, but floored in its argument.

if we were to look at the Nazis having gained air superiority IE there is no RAF.

so look at Dunkirk, the British losed 243 ship including about 10 warships?
at this time ( Dunkirk) the Nazis stated ( after the war) that they had actually losed air superiority totally. the Nazi airfield were still in Germany and as a result the time over target was minimal, worse than latter in the blitz. the RAF and Nazis losed aircraft at the same rate about 1 to 1 or about 150 each.

my point is that with out air superiority the Nazis still managed to sink 243 ships.

also look at the pre blitz channel shipping loses, again this is with the RAF and nazis running with loses of 1 to 1

other glaring examples, SBDs accounted for 90% of the Japanese shipping loses.

i would argue the generally accepted view, that had the nazis not switched to civilian targets it would have taken another 3 weeks to completely destroy the RAF ( not the commonly publicised 3 days)

the Nazis with air superiority would have rendered the RN infective in stopping a Nazi invasion as per there now known invasion plans.

not only would the RN been decimated by the Luftwaffe they would have arrived to late to interrupt the initial invasion.

Having said all that., that case is true in the Nazi schedule for invasion was maintained.

the RAF resistance and final destruction would have pushed the invasion of England ( as it did) to late in the season. while the initial invasion would have been successful, the following resupply and logistical tasks supplied from Europe would have been severely hampered, higher seas, bad flying weather cloud, poor visibility would have rendered the Luftwaffe ineffective.

add to that, as the Nazi front spread win its girth thinning the troops, garrison duties, further thinning the troops. hampered resupply for the above reasons. the almost suicidal resolve of the poms themselves, and most certainly a suicidal royal Navy.

so a successful landing and invasion up to the point of maybe capturing London. but i doubt they would have gotten much further than that, a Vietnam even
A close run thing, I'm glad the theories weren't put to the test, Bob

[Pickles2]

A close run thing, I'm glad the theories weren't put to the test, Bob
So am I, but yes close, VERY close.
6th June,..Special day today.
Pickles.

[Ausfree]

So am I, but yes close, VERY close.
6th June,..Special day today.
Pickles.

Yep. special day, my youngest daughters birthday today.:D

But on a serious note, if Hitler had listened to his generals the outcome of WW2 might have been different. Hitler was known for butting in and micro managing when he should have let the generals do what they were paid to do.........run the armed forces of Germany.

[85 county]

Yep. special day, my youngest daughters birthday today.:D

But on a serious note, if Hitler had listened to his generals the outcome of WW2 might have been different. Hitler was known for butting in and micro managing when he should have let the generals do what they were paid to do.........run the armed forces of Germany.

congrats on the birthday.

your comment on Hitler interfering is not with out merit, how ever it is not completely true. the invasion of France was a route used twice before by the Germans. the attack on Russia followed the initial ww1 plan.

an remember Hitler was a solder and a recognised hero at that. extremely patriotic with some rather distorted views of the world. it is hard to explane the attitudes of the day because they seem so alien or extreme today. things like eugenics was not just popular belefes in Germany but in England and the USA. the Russian revolution ( the first one) was regarded as a Jewish take over or the beginning of a Jewish would domination. views that some crackpot still hold onto today but in the form of the Rothschild new world government bla bla.

my point is the difference in views between Hitler and his generals were very little, though he write the orders he was accepting of advice, he was not accepting of defete. we see that at el alemain and Stalingrad.

what was the biggest problem was his management structure. not unlike to Stalin he had complex and separate lines of command which tendered to hinder things. in addition those who has access to him or those he trusted were really working for there own ends. in short he was surrounded by people where were telling him what he wanted to hear. his really competent generals were sacked reinstated then sacked again and reinstated. the demonstrates his ability to accept avice he did not believe in, unfortunately the Nazi party system tended to advance the nazis over the competent.

there is two very telling story's. D day, everyone was to scared to wake Hitler with the news. Stalin died because every one was to scared to wake him.

[Ausfree]

I didn't know Hitler was a WW1 war hero, I thought he was just a puffed up corporal with the gift of the gab. You are right he did have generals close to him that told him what he wanted to hear, Wilhelm Keitel who was chief of staff was one of these.
The generals who were brilliant at tactics were realitively low ranking, these were Erich von Manstein, Heinz Guderian and Erwin Rommel.

Rommel's panzers outflanked the French and British and if Hitler (who was worried about Rommel overextending himself and leaving and exposed flank) hadn't pulled Rommel up for a couple of days. He (Rommel) might have captured the entire British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk and left Britain without an army.

Hitler did Britain a favour!!!:D:D

p.s. Thanks for the good wishes on my youngest daughters birthday.

[Pickles2]

Hitler wasn't a WW1 "Hero". He did Ok, I believe he may have been "mentioned in despatches" etc, but nothing special, I think He may have been awarded some level of the Iron Cross, but so were literally thousands of other German soldiers, who, like Hitler, were just "doing their duty" fighting for their Country.
But, Hitler was devastated when Germany lost the War, & put a large amount of blame on the Jews, who He said, cut off money to the German economy, thereby affecting the German War effort.
Pickles.

[85 county]

Hitler wasn't a WW1 "Hero". He did Ok, I believe he may have been "mentioned in despatches" etc, but nothing special, I think He may have been awarded some level of the Iron Cross, but so were literally thousands of other German soldiers, who, like Hitler, were just "doing their duty" fighting for their Country.
But, Hitler was devastated when Germany lost the War, & put a large amount of blame on the Jews, who He said, cut off money to the German economy, thereby affecting the German War effort.
Pickles.

i guess that a bit like saying Cameron Baird got some sort of VC??

Hitler passed up promotion to full corporal because it would result in his being reassigned from the messenger group.
Besides two Iron Crosses, Hitler was awarded the Bavarian Military Medal 3rd class with bar, and later received, as did all wounded soldiers, the Cross of Military Merit.
He never faced American forces during the war.
The List Regiment and the headquarters messenger group suffered tremendous casualties during the war, but Hitler avoided many close calls and regularly indicated he expected to survive the war.

no Hitler saw the Naval mutiny and the subsequent communist revolution in Germany. this is where his association with Rhonn began. as i have already posted, communism at the time was hand in hand with a Jewish take over of the world. or so it was believed.
.

[85 county]

I should add, Germany had 13 million under arms in ww1. only 220 000 iron cross first class were awarded