P76

[mick88]

Thought this might be of interest to some!


Cheers, Mick

[bee utey]

Thought this might be of interest to some!


Cheers, Mick
I built that "2 Boot" trailer for the SA P76 club. It's good for getting the odd double take from passing car nuts.:)
It was loaned to the Motor Museum for a while, they like a bit of variety in their displays and invite car clubs to participate.

[Mick_Marsh]

I remember reading a future model was planned to have a transverse front wheel drive V8.
That would have been interesting.

A car before their time and poorly finished.

I'd love to have one now, though.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I'd love to have one now, though.


;)
Trax TR42H 73 Leyland P76 1974 World CUP Rally "BIG Brut" Evans Green Diecast | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Trax-TR42H-73-Leyland-P76-1974-World-Cup-Rally-Big-Brut-Evans-Green-Diecast-/181742745744)

[Mick_Marsh]

;)
Trax TR42H 73 Leyland P76 1974 World CUP Rally "BIG Brut" Evans Green Diecast | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Trax-TR42H-73-Leyland-P76-1974-World-Cup-Rally-Big-Brut-Evans-Green-Diecast-/181742745744)
I was thinking perhaps a little bigger

[V8Ian]

I was thinking perhaps a little bigger

On the upside Mick, it's affordable and easy to hide from Mum. ;)

[Mick_Marsh]

On the upside Mick, it's affordable and easy to hide from Mum. ;)
All good points, Ian.

[jimr1]

I remember reading a future model was planned to have a transverse front wheel drive V8.
That would have been interesting.

A car before their time and poorly finished.

I'd love to have one now, though.
I can remember when I come to live in Oz , some of my work mates were talking about the p76 , and what a load of crap they were . I had never seen one before as they never sold in the UK . At that time if you were a young Ausie male , It was skin tight jeans , Mullet hair cut , either a Ford or Holden fan . That was It !. As I found out more about them , they had a good 4.4 v8 motor , and they weren't as bad as they critics would have them . I do believe they were cars designed by Ausies for Australia . I'm sure many of you can fill the gaps leading to there demise !!.. Jim ..

[Mick_Marsh]

I can remember when I come to live in Oz , some of my work mates were talking about the p76 , and what a load of crap they were . I had never seen one before as they never sold in the UK . At that time if you were a young Ausie male , It was skin tight jeans , Mullet hair cut , either a Ford or Holden fan . That was It !. As I found out more about them , they had a good 4.4 v8 motor , and they weren't as bad as they critics would have them . I do believe they were cars designed by Ausies for Australia . I'm sure many of you can fill the gaps leading to there demise !!.. Jim ..
I think they are very accurate observations. There were also Chrysler Valiants which were just as good as Holdens and Fords.
It's rather difficult to shake that bipolar mentality.
The other thing that added to the demise of the P76 was it came out about the time of the oil crisis and, well, it was a big car.

[vnx205]

The P76 was a car that deserved a much better fate. Some of the things we take for granted on cars today were found on the P76 before other makers adopted them.

https://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=126841&search=p76&images=&c=1&s=

The car had innovative features like concealed wipers, side intrusion bars in the doors, a safety bonnet, front disc brakes as standard and an isolated fuel tank to meet public concerns about car safety.

It was a very good car that just happened to be released at the wrong time by a company that was already in difficulties.

I believe that it is one of the great tragedies of the history of motor vehicles that the P76 was such a great car that was never given the chance it deserved.

(For those too young to remember the P76, this is an account of its development and its demise.)
http://www.webtrade.com.au/p76/magazines/wheels/wheelsnov82002.htm

[jimr1]

I think they are very accurate observations. There were also Chrysler Valiants which were just as good as Holdens and Fords.
It's rather difficult to shake that bipolar mentality.
The other thing that added to the demise of the P76 was it came out about the time of the oil crisis and, well, it was a big car.
The oil crisis was a factor , but the p76 didn't use any more fuel than say a Chrysler ,Ford or Holden of the same size , my old boss said the same , he had two F150s at the time , now did they use fuel ! I think Layland as a company were a mess . They were badly ran , struggled with unions , two many models , old plant . The main thing as mentioned poor build , plus reliability issues , none if this helped !!..

[vnx205]

The oil crisis was a factor , but the p76 didn't use any more fuel than say a Chrysler ,Ford or Holden of the same size
... ... ...
According to that Wheels article, the P76 actually used significantly less fuel that any of its competitors.


The P76 did about 6.8 km/l while the others all did about 5.3. It had the best brakes and its gearbox was judged the best. It came first for driver position, seat design and general accommodation, with by far the best boot. It was the best equipped of the four.
Not that the fuel consumption is km/l.

In today's terminology that is 14.7 litres/100 km compared with 18.8 litres/100 km.

[jimr1]

(For those too young to remember the P76, this is an account of its development and its demise.)
Leyland P76 - Australia's Own Car - Why It Sank (http://www.webtrade.com.au/p76/magazines/wheels/wheelsnov82002.htm)
Thanks for this info , It is a good read , explains a lot !!.. Jim

[mick88]

In the 1980's a mate of mine had a couple, you could buy them for a song.
Great cars, heaps of room, rode well and the V8's went well.
He had a six and an 8, he drove them for years.


I also know a guy who was a salesman, his family had a dealership.
He always said if Leyland had spent another couple of hundred dollars per vehicle on the production line they would have sold like mad. As it was you would be on a test drive with a customer and a wind screen wiper would blow off or other some other thing like a rear view mirror would fall off.




Cheers, Mick.

[d2dave]

My dad bought one new, top of the range executive. I don't have a spare week to list all the things that went wrong with it.

It was a piece of junk. He eventually had a smash and wrote it off, thankfully,
as me being a spanner I had to fix it once warranty had expired.

[JDNSW]

The oil crisis was a factor , but the p76 didn't use any more fuel than say a Chrysler ,Ford or Holden of the same size , my old boss said the same , he had two F150s at the time , now did they use fuel ! I think Layland as a company were a mess . They were badly ran , struggled with unions , two many models , old plant . The main thing as mentioned poor build , plus reliability issues , none if this helped !!..

How much fuel it used was not the issue - it was designed to look big, and did. With the fuel crisis, buyers were looking for small cars. V-8s were definitely not what they were looking for.

The styling was not a selling point, but then the same could be said for some of their competitors. I think, however, that the main reason for the failure was the state of the company, although the fuel crisis did not help.

John

[ATH]

A local long gone dealer in Perth (Illingworth Leyland) had one of only 10 P76 wagons made in their showroom and it really looked a good car as it done away with the ungainly looking boot.
It was possibly named a "P76 Targa" or something like that.
I had a loan of one of our company cars which was 6cyl. P76 to do a long trip out through Gippsland and it was a decent drive with fair handling on twisty gravel roads, decent brakes (first local car with front discs as standard) and comfortable seats.
Just a pity about the timing, the BL connection and trying to flog anything not seen as Australian back in them days.
AlanH.

[loanrangie]

A local long gone dealer in Perth (Illingworth Leyland) had one of only 10 P76 wagons made in their showroom and it really looked a good car as it done away with the ungainly looking boot.
It was possibly named a "P76 Targa" or something like that.
I had a loan of one of our company cars which was 6cyl. P76 to do a long trip out through Gippsland and it was a decent drive with fair handling on twisty gravel roads, decent brakes (first local car with front discs as standard) and comfortable seats.
Just a pity about the timing, the BL connection and trying to flog anything not seen as Australian back in them days.
AlanH.


Targa Florio was the sports version of the sedan, Force 7 was the coupe.

[mick88]

Here is the Station wagon and the Coupe force 7.

[Rick122]

I've had 5 x P76's in my time, including 2 Targa Florio's. The problems they had are easily fixed and very minor compared to problems the other "big 3" manufacturers had. Must of them electrical related and due to their insistence of making them safer. i.e. they moved the fuse box from drivers side to passengers side after the first month of production so you were of the road if you had to fix a fuse. This led to massive volt drop problems as they just extended to wiring around the front of the car! Lucas wiring too...
They are still great to drive nowadays though, much better than the others were. 50/50 weight distribution, the heaviest model was 1280kg, about the same as a Torana (similar to a modern Corolla!). Rack and pinion steering, good brakes, coil suspension, Statesman sized interior and a 1020L boot space!
Half their problem was company oversight, when it won COTY demand for the v8 compared to the 6 was 4:1, yet the company thought the 6 would be the volume seller. Strikes plagued the factory too, Borg-warner went on strike and they couldn't supply enough cars because they didn't have enough gearboxes or diffs. But the workers also went on strike, sometimes as silly as not liking the flavor icecream in the canteen FFS!
People became frustrated when there became a 6 month waiting list for some models then a lot ended up parked outside the factory waiting for parts, which caused them to rust.
A great shame.

[jimr1]

Thinking back , for those that can remember the p76 , and looking at what other cars were selling at the time , Ford Holden Chrysler , most were big cars , there 6,or 8 cylinder . Back them there wasn't the big choice of small 4 cylinder that we have today . I don't think I would have heard of say Hyundai , or Kia . The Americans also got caught , making big cars that weren't selling either . major reinvestment had to be done . The Japs were in a great position to supply world markets . The British auto industry , along with the motor cycle industry went into free fall . It's only resent years that It is now recovering , and none of then are British with the exception of a few low volume manufacturers , plus Triumph motor bikes !!.. Jim

[d2dave]

Borg-warner went on strike

This alone was one of their major flaws, Borg-warner. Their diffs and manuals were ok. It was the auto.

A BW 35 auto should never go behind a V8. Ford tried it five years earlier and ditched it real quick when they found that they did not last.

Leyland should have learnt from Ford and not done it.

Premature major auto failure was one of the many things that plagued my dads vehicle

[bee utey]

This alone was one of their major flaws, Borg-warner. Their diffs and manuals were ok. It was the auto.

A BW 35 auto should never go behind a V8. Ford tried it five years earlier and ditched it real quick when they found that they did not last.

Leyland should have learnt from Ford and not done it.

Premature major auto failure was one of the many things that plagued my dads vehicle
Some people just got unlucky, I know loads of people who towed caravans etc with their auto V8's. My wife's auto box did at least 240K between rebuilds and regularly towed trailers over its long life. I cheerfully admit though that it didn't get thrashed, obviously some people viewed a V8 P76 as a licence to try and break something, usually when borrowing daddy's P76 for a spot of tyre smoking...

[p38arover]

The Force 7 is not a bad looking car. I reckon it's better looking than the Mustang of that era.

[V8Ian]

Wash your keyboard out Ron. :o

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/444.jpg

[Is Vic There]

none of then are British with the exception of a few low volume manufacturers , plus Triumph motor bikes !!.. Jim

And Norton as well, Harris have just been bought out by Royal Enfield who are Indian which is a good thing, should see the price of my Harris Magnum increase!

[discotwinturbo]

My old man had one of the two prototype P76 Rallye's.

It was an absolute weapon for speed.

A fellow from QLD found out about it and brought a suitcase of cash with him, to take it off dads hands.

I remember one time at a motor show, and I mentioned about this to the P76 club and all the guys swarmed around to hear all about....they had only heard rumors.

Brett...

[Mick_Marsh]

Wash your keyboard out Ron. :o

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/444.jpg
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/94190d1432180238-p76-leyland-p76-force-7-coupe.jpg

With ya there Ian.

Mind you, I'd rather have a Force 7 than a Mustang.

Unless it was one of these Mustangs:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/445.jpg

[67hardtop]

Hi all, a mate of mine Richard Rust ran 7 P76's as taxi's in Port Headland and South Headland in the 70's early 80's. 5x 6cyl's and 2 v8's. All did way over 500,000 kms and both v8's had over 700,000 kms. when they were retired. He kept one v8 as a personal car for years after. He was a mechanic so I suppose it helped in keeping them on the road. All were white. He told me that they all had their original diffs, original v8 engines but they had been reconditioned twice. The 6 cyl's had all had different motors and all the auto trans's had been changed or reconditioned many times. Only one 6cyl still had the original box in it. It was a rare manual trans he had said to me. He was the man who helped to train me as a mechanic. Great bloke.

Cheers Rod:wasntme:

[d2dave]

Some people just got unlucky, I know loads of people who towed caravans etc with their auto V8's. My wife's auto box did at least 240K between rebuilds and regularly towed trailers over its long life. I cheerfully admit though that it didn't get thrashed, obviously some people viewed a V8 P76 as a licence to try and break something, usually when borrowing daddy's P76 for a spot of tyre smoking...

I think it more a case of some got lucky. Borg-warner increased the strength of the BW35 for XF Falcon and called it a BW40. This auto was at its limits behind a six that had far less torque than the V8 P76

[Rick122]

Policies at the time meant that all local cars had to have a percentage of local content, which is why a lot of them used Borg warner. Considering that most people think of the P76 as being British, it actually had the most local content out of the other 3 Aussie manufacturers.
The BW35 was not a bad box if treated with respect, but it was not up to 'enthusiastic' driving or heavy towing. Mine destroyed itself in the driveway with no warning, parked it after work and then went to reverse out the next day, reverse gear was gone and required a full rebuild. I had it rebuilt with BW40 bits.

[d2dave]

Ford were not using Borg-warner behind their V8. It was a US box. So why was Leyland forced to under content rules?

[JDNSW]

Ford were not using Borg-warner behind their V8. It was a US box. So why was Leyland forced to under content rules?

Possibly not content rules as such - they probably had no access to a suitable box from overseas, and certainly not one as cheaply as Ford (or GM or Chrysler) could supply. When did an auto become an option for Rangerover? And where did Leyland get that?

"World cars" were not even a concept in the seventies, and using another manufacturer's (as opposed to a suppliers) parts was much less common than today, pretty much restricted to small scale manufacturers.

John

[Rick122]

No Ford didn't use Borg Warner in their v8's. But they used BW for just about every other model. Under the plan at the time, by using local content in the p76, British Leyland could import Jaguar's and Rover's duty free. That all changed when British Leyland made the decision to close all manufacturing plants outside the UK largely due to the '73 coal miners strike which left them nearly a billion pounds in debt. The p76 had only been in production for 6 months at the time and waiting lists were 3 to 6 months for some models. This coupled with early quality issues meant it didn't take much convincing for the public to cancel their orders for a p76, when they could walk next door and buy something else without waiting. Actually, the p76 production very nearly was going to be taken over by Toyota!
Another bit of trivia, the entire p76 program including tooling, design, manufacture etc. Cost $20m, roughly what Ford spent retooling to change the XW Into the XY. It was quite an achievement to produce something as good as it was with such a low budget.

[tony66_au]

the late 60's & 70's also saw a lot of industrial action which made life very hard for car makers, Borg Warner Albury went on and off for ages which was why Chrysler Aust models of the day came with a mix of BW35's and the imported Mopar 903 (Baby bro to the 727).

Incidentally the 2 highest Aussie content cars ever were the HQ and the VG Val from memory.

A good bloke I knew years ago (Grimey) had a nice collection of P76's and we rebuilt the Borgy for his daily before it got a fresh 4.4 V8 and it was a surprisingly nice drive and not what I expected at all BUT being used to Valiants I had a fair amount of experience in cars of the Era and I think that makes a big difference in how you view others of the time period.
The sheer boat like styling of the P76 made people expect the things to handle like a drunk wombat but if you ignored the perception and had enough nouse to be unbiased they were pretty good things for their time.

Build quality varied though on both the cars and components and the Borgy 35's were not spectacular quality when the Unions were cranky.

As for the comment about a 35 not doing well behind V8's?

Well most of the Non factory Automatic early 80's 4 door Rangies had Borg warner 35's as did the 2 doors from memory and they did just fine behind the 3.5........

[tony66_au]

No Ford didn't use Borg Warner in their v8's. But they used BW for just about every other model.

Ford also used the C4 trans when BW35's were not available due to industrial action.

Holden from memory didn't have this issue as the 3 speed Traumatic had no supply issues.

[bee utey]

The Falcon's BW40 upgrade mainly concerns the improved design of the reverse band piston mounting, a breather on top of the case and bronze thrust washers in the planetary gear set. I've rebuilt plenty of both and there's really very little else different between them. I always meant to fit a BW40 to a P76 but interest fizzled out after I fitted a TH700 to the P76 wagon. That really is a nice match for the P76's torque.:)

[d2dave]

BW 40 has a bigger sun gear.

[JDNSW]

.......
As for the comment about a 35 not doing well behind V8's?

Well most of the Non factory Automatic early 80's 4 door Rangies had Borg warner 35's as did the 2 doors from memory and they did just fine behind the 3.5........

Wasn't the P76 V8 a bit bigger than 3.5?

John

[tony66_au]

Wasn't the P76 V8 a bit bigger than 3.5?

John

Absolutely but the 4.4 only had a small 2bbl stromberg opposed to the Zeniths on the 3.5 .

Both had relatively short intake runners as well so Torque was also down on what it could have been.

Reverse seemed to be a common failure on the P76's and we rebuilt 3 that all failed in that manner.

The 3.5's also had different cam specs between Auto and Manual and the converted 2 and 4 door rangies still had the manual cam spec which made them a bit punchier off the line.

My opinion on the square bore/stroked 4.4 is that it made more HP and revved cleaner than the 3.5 but really didnt make much more torque down low.

[UncleHo]

The Range Rover auto was the Chrysler 727 which was a 3 speed and never fitted to the Australian 2 door,the first of the 4 door vehicles got autos,post 86 they got the ZF 4 speed,which carried over into the Discovery models,the Range Rover originally had the 4 speed LT95 manual from the military 101 fitted into it and in 1985 got the LT77 five speed from the Triumph Spitfire in it,Leyland's way of a cheap 5spd,a little weak for the vehicle and it struggled when towing,I know,as I have a 85 LT 77 Rangie and a 99 Auto D1,so if the 77 dies it will get a ZF 4 speed in it,

Even though I worked for Leyland Aust. I had never seen a P76 Wagon,it looks like a base model,nice looking vehicle,and would have sold well,Leyland's demise was helped by the then Govenment's auto manufacturing policy,the "Button Plan" which stated that Australia could only support 3 manufacturers,(with a little help from Ford,GMH,and Chrysler) plus a lot of mis-management,but that is all water under the bridge now,Chrysler went,now GMH ,soon followed by Ford shortly after,our once thriving automotive industry will be gone.

[tony66_au]

Pre the Factory 3 speed auto there was a sizable Non factory conversion industry that used Borgy 35's with the Ford type T bar shifter (Chrome ends) where the Factory fit was all black and flat rectangular shifter.

Factory auto wasnt till the 4 doors.

[d2dave]

My opinion on the square bore/stroked 4.4 is that it made more HP and revved cleaner than the 3.5 but really didnt make much more torque down low.

The 4.4 still puts out far more torque than a 4.1 XF Falcon.

As for the BW 35 put behind a RR Classic, to me this is madness

There is a mob in Melb called Ritters. They are a very highly regarded independent RR/LR specialist.

Back in the early days of classics, they pioneered their own auto conversion and were smart enough to not use a BW box. They used a Ford C4.

I had an 83 with this.

I still stand by what I said. No V8 should have a BW 35 behind it.

[JDNSW]

......
My opinion on the square bore/stroked 4.4 is that it made more HP and revved cleaner than the 3.5 but really didnt make much more torque down low.

I rather doubt it will be low down torque that kills auto transmissions - I suspect it will be either maximum torque (breakage or excess wear) or just plain maximum power (heat, or lubrication failure due to excess load on ger teeth or bearings).

Irrelevant to this discussion, but note that this comment applies to V-8s and autos - by contrast, if you look at the reputation of the Isuzu, this will kill manual transmissions because of the low down torque, specifically by the torque pulses resulting from only four cylinders and a fairly light flywheel, plus this low down torque.

John

[Davehoos]

gear change quality that destroys most auto trans after over heating.
fitting internals out of the last sigma or an EFI XE, planetary output shaft and 3 bolt reverse band servo etc was the cheap rebuild in the 90's. the casing that's an issue with left hand controls and mixed combinations of oil cooler outlets. in a T bar P76 that's not an issue.


the last falcon ute fitted a BW 3 speed had an improved gearbox-final fling.
don't think it is labelled BW40. the output shaft is shorter.


I like the early hydrolic TH 700-R4 until you replace soft parts.


My 1993 3.5 disco I have to hold of the throttle to keep it mobile towing. the lack of torque was the reason I didn't keep it running , driving it hard till the auto temp light came on any up hill rise. In a P76 you slug it out on a hill and listen to the ignition rattle.


P/S I took my 88 out in the rural roads around the village to show the son storm damage. I was supprise that one hill in the falcon it didn't notice that the rover had to select 1st gear 35Km/h.-nearly went for low range. I often joked about the time our Bedford fire truck taking 45 minutes to drive the 10 km.

[Rick122]

I'm not quite sure how this ended up in a "which gearbox should I put in my P76" subject.
I was a committee club member for more than 10 years. The amount of "mystique" and miss truths associated with the P76 is amazing. If I had a dollar for all the people that used to come up to us at car shows saying that their father or mate had or has a Force 7 locked up in a shed or barn, I could have actually bought one of the nine that exist today.

Someone mentioned earlier that there were 10 wagons made. Unfortunately, only 3 p76 wagons were made and only 1 survived after the company closure. They were all prototypes anyway and not quite ready for production.

Discotwinturbo, the p76 Rallye was a one-off dealer made special for the Sydney motor show. Unless your name is Bruce Rose, then you must be thinking of a different P76 model. There was nothing mechanically special about it, other than some stripes and Targa wheels and Force 7 steering wheel. It was a plain super v8 as was the Targa Florio model. The Targa did get an LSD though.


Leyland's demise was helped by the then Govenment's auto manufacturing policy,the "Button Plan" which stated that Australia could only support 3 manufacturers,(with a little help from Ford,GMH,and Chrysler)

You are about 10 years too late with this comment, the "Button plan" came in the mid 80's.

[jimr1]

I've just had a look at Leyland P76 v8 workshop manual , Capacity 4414cc( 269.7cu in ) Bore/Stroke . 3.500 in . bhp. 192 @4250 rpm. Max torque 285 lb/ft. @ 2500rpm . I always thought this should have been the motor for the Australian Range Rovers , It was a good engine in It's day . I have two of them , one in a 110 wagon , It's been in there for years now . So much better than the 3.5lt . Also have one in a 1976 Triumph Stag . Jim :)