2006 Defender 110 TD5 - Seeking advice from the experts!

[Yorkshire_Jon]

OK guys, I'll try to keep it short but I need some advice from the experienced because this one's got me stumped...

It all started back in June / July 2011 - Before that my 110 drove beautifully.

In June - July 2011 I set off from Sydney - Coober Pedy - Anne Beadell - Canning Stock Route - Tanami - Alice - Broken Hill - Sydney. At the start of the trip the car had about 60,000km on the clock. Its now got about 120,000km.

It was when I got back onto the bitumen around Broken Hill I noticed a faint vibration in the car at free-way speeds, nothing significant but I knew something was no longer 100%.

Unable to pin-point the issue, fast forward to around 2013. Vibration now worse at free-way speeds. Between 2013 and about December 2014 Ive changed the following (because things were worn, broken or in an attempt to fix the worsening wobble):

1. RTC Steering damper for a new one (because the old one started to leak).
2. Rear Foam cell shocks (because they didn't damp the bumps very well any more). Put same models back on.
3. Front shocks at same time as rears. Swapped for same new same models.
4. New HD versions of King Spring springs on rear & front - level out the car and reduce roll.
5. Gwyn Lewis rear trailing arms (cos I bent on of the standard items one weekend camping)
6. New HD Bailey Morris Rear Propshaft (cos I bent it on the same weekend and the trailing arm!)
6. SuperPro bushes all round (Front & Read Shock mounts, Trailing arms (both ends), Radius arms (both ends, A-Frame to Chassis)) - Many were worn and needed replacing.
7. New A-frame ball joint - to get rid of the rear steer caused by a worn unit.

None of the above made the vibration go away or get any worse.

To eliminate wheels & tyres I borrowed a friends wheels & tyres and used the car for about a week - no difference to my car and the "donor" car didn't experience any vibration either.

Over the past 6 months the vibration has got so bad that one night in a hotel car park in Newcastle I took out some shims on the swivels (top pin). This solved / masked the problem for about 400km.

At this point the car would begin to shake at about 85kph and fade out again at around 100kph. Now when I say shake I mean when I look out of the window at the tyre its wobbling about an inch from side to side at the outer radius!!!

Step forward another 500km - 1000km and the shake is from about 70kph - 120kph.

Im no longer driving the car unless its around a 50kph zone!

Last month I pulled the swivels apart and replaced bearings, oil seals, swivel pins etc - all with genuine parts. Made no difference at all. Pre-load was set correctly with scales. Bearing torqued up correctly with the one stake nut.

After rebuilding the swivels I spoke to Ad-west in the UK re the steering box. They suggested that I had probably got excessive wear in the steering box and worn through the case hardening on the rack and/or worm - suggested replace box.

Last weekend I replaced the box with a new Adwest unit (including drop arm ball joint). I did have some play in the steering but not enough to fail a rego. The steering is now much more positive and that play has gone, but the bloody wheel wobble is back at about 90kph.


Now, other things Ive checked and am happy are OK.
1. Rear wheel bearings
2. Gearbox mounts
3. Propshaft UJs
4. Propshafts themselves (for straightness).
5. All tyres are wearing equally
6. No play in any ball joint

I have also removed each propshaft in turn and driven in front wheel drive only and rear wheel drive only. Wheel wobble remains.

I havent checked the engine mounts. The car seems determined to wobble me off the road at speed and not at a particular engine rev-range.


So fella's. Given Ive just about re-built or replaced everything below the chassis in the last few years, any words of wisdom??? Please!!!

Thx
Jon

[Duarte19]

Have you checked the panhard rod bushes? were they replaced when you installed all the superpro bushes?

I had a similar issue and the panhard rod bolts need to be tight, very tight...

[Didge]

I think it's developing what we call "character" :)

[clive22]

Tricky One.

It's there you've just not found it, or given you pretty much checked everything overlooked it.

Few More you may well have done

Bent Differential Housing
Re-check all bushes/bolts
Wheel Alignment
Loose pitman arm

The fact after you've tightened the swivel pre-load and this changed the vehicles behavior is a big clue to me that it's in the front end.

Clive

[Blade74]

I don't consider myself an expert but def check the engine mounts. And also could it be the flywheel/clutch??
Take it to A good Landrover mechanic like Graeme Cooper.

[numpty]

Have you checked the panhard rod bushes? were they replaced when you installed all the superpro bushes?


2006 Td5 doesn't have a panhard rod.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Keep the thoughts coming please.


Suggestions so far:
1. Pitman arm - Not loose, new one (and ball joint) was supplied on the new steering box (old one wasn't loose either and old ball joint wasn't worn).
2. Bent axle casing - Possible, but its never had a clought from anything.
3. Wheel alignment - Forgot to mention, its had one in the last 6 months - it was all ok.
4. Suspension and steering bushes - 99.9% certain all OK. I haven't changed the bushes in the bar that links front axle to steering damper/steering box assembly but I did have it off at the weekend when I changed the box and gave the bushes and bolts a close inspection - Bushes fine and bolts like new.
5. Clutch / Flywheel. Before I set off on my trip in 2011 I had a new clutch and solid flywheel fitted. Again, 99.9% sure thats not the problem.
6. Engine mounts - not checked them yet.

Short of taking them out to inspect, how do I check the engine mounts? There is a shroud over the top of them, a chassis underneath and no space for a pry bar!

I have had one steering pump fail before (not on this Defender), that time when the steering wheel was moved through the total travel from left to right / right to left I could feel heavy / light steering. Definitely don't have that on this car.

I have had the car to Carl at Greenlight and he's as stuck as I am.


I was thinking last night that the problem is most likely to be in the front end. I cant rule out a bent axle casing or anything else in that region. I suspect I need to find a front axle that is known to be good as a donor vehicle and temporarily swap the whole font axle out to see if it makes any difference. If it does, then at least Ive narrowed the search area.

Thoughts please.

[Duarte19]

Short of taking them out to inspect, how do I check the engine mounts? There is a shroud over the top of them, a chassis underneath and no space for a pry bar!



Look between the engine support and the rubber donut part of the mount, there should be around 10-20mm between the two. If the engine support is sitting on the rubber part, its buggered...

[Jock The Rock]

2006 Td5 doesn't have a panhard rod.

Interesting stuff, I didn't know that. I've never looked at the front end of a late model Defender

What setup do they have?

I have encountered a similar problem with my own County and on dads 300 Tdi. My County did it at round the same speed, generally while coasting and turning a corner. Felt like the front diff wanted to jump out of the car. I put this down to a dicky bush in the panhard rod. Since restoration I haven't had the same problem

Dad's was the same, flogged panhard bush. I replaced it and was fine for a while. Eventually it started doing the same thing as my County. Turned out the holes in the chassis mount had flogged a tiny amount. After I tightened the bolt, the vibration stopped. A new chassis mount is on the cards at some point

I would definitely be thoroughly checking the setup in the front end that keeps the axle in line with the chassis



3. Wheel alignment - Forgot to mention, its had one in the last 6 months - it was all ok.
4. Suspension and steering bushes - 99.9% certain all OK. I haven't changed the bushes in the bar that links front axle to steering damper/steering box assembly but I did have it off at the weekend when I changed the box and gave the bushes and bolts a close inspection - Bushes fine and bolts like new.
5. Clutch / Flywheel. Before I set off on my trip in 2011 I had a new clutch and solid flywheel fitted. Again, 99.9% sure thats not the problem.
6. Engine mounts - not checked them yet.

Short of taking them out to inspect, how do I check the engine mounts? There is a shroud over the top of them, a chassis underneath and no space for a pry bar!


Would definitely try changing those bushes, and make sure none of the bolt holes are flogged oversize either. Doesn't take much at all, Dads would have been lucky to be 2mm

As for the engine mounts, maybe try using a bottle jack to lightly lift the engine on it's mount. If they are knackered there will be a noticeable amount of movement in the mount

[strangy]

2006 Td5 doesn't have a panhard rod.
so what keeps the front dif centred in the 06?

[Ancient Mariner]

I have never had the inclination to look at any LR with electronics:D but I strongly suspect they have a pan hard rod .Be very unusual for anything apart from the front axle assembly to cause a wheel wobble and I would have another look at the swivel preload minus the seals and run a tape over the wheels check for towout .Also with the engine running have a good look under with some one cycling the steering

AM

[Tombie]

2006 Td5 doesn't have a panhard rod.

Well that would explain the wobble :angel:

Of course it does :p holds the front axle in alignment....

[DazzaTD5]

My suggestion is to take it to someone that knows Land Rovers for a diagnostic, the below list is very broad in its description.

Vibration on a TD5 (harmonic type, hard to explain but any Land Rover repairer will get what I mean and the below are common). Also keep in mind, one persons experience with an issue like a vibration and their resolution does NOT equal anothers. So many issues such as this on a TD5 can be the cause of unrelated components.

Minor vibration.
*Engine mounts - only use/replace with genuine (as mentioned 20mm "air gap" between engine support and donut).
*Exhaust figure 8 rubber mounts (even if they look n feel fine)
*Exhaust manifold leak (broken studs, warping).
*Harmonic balancer (they dont always squeak on turn off or rattle).
*Exhaust hitting transfer case mount heat shield.
*Exhaust alligator section (vibrates between inner and outer section).

Excessive vibration (again, explain that).
*Front prop shaft (a rebuilt unit that has not had the double joint replaced is pointless)
*The solid flywheel replacement (I've yet to see any good long lasting examples when used, from my own experience they add minor to excessive vibration)
*Flogged out gearbox bearings due to the above fitted).

Hope some of that is useful, as mentioned, you would find if its any of the above a Land Rover repairer should pick it up.

Regards
Daz

[Blade74]

Also what about the rubber gearbox mount??

[n plus one]

You're describing vibration/oscillation that is affecting the steering wheels, right?

To the point where you can't drive at road speed with sufficient control, right?

And you're certain it's not coming from the wheels, right?

Then it's either in:

1. the steering system (TREs, etc);
2. the dampening of the steering system (swivels (primary damping) or the steering dampener (secondary)); or
3. the system locating the steering axle to the chassis (the

Or a combination of all these things.

I'd be replacing your panhard bushes (and mounting hardware) and rechecking your swivels.

[numpty]

:o Apologies.

Hides head in sand :p

[Jock The Rock]

Hey mate

Interested to hear what the verdict was with this?

[schuy1]

Panhard rod bushes. Been there done that. Only took me 8mths to track mine down........ but the rest of the front end is now replaced!:D Last thing it could be would be those itzy bitzy unassuming cylindrical bits of rubber wouldnt it?
Cheers Scott

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I'm 99% certain I've sorted it... Eventually.

Turns out I've had a few little problems that have all compounded together to make one problem!

After confirming all the bushes, springs, dampers and ball joints were OK I did the following:

1. Rebuilt the front axle (wheel bearings & swivels)
2. Replaced steering box

The rebuild of the axle made no difference (everything was as it should be when I inspected after dismantling) but it did confirm that it was all OK and eliminated this from my mind.

The steering box had a little play in it but nothing that was significant and it wasn't leaking oil. In retrospect I didn't need to change it.

Noting that Id already tried (borrowed from a mate) a different set of wheels and tyres a year or so ago (which made no difference at the time), in desperation I put the front tyres on the back and the back on the front... This transformed the car and the violent shake has almost gone.

I'm waiting for the new BFG AT KO2 tyres to become available and then I'll put a set of new rubber on and then hopefully the problem will be solved... Even if it doesn't solve the problem, Im way overdue for a new set of tyres anyway.

[oldyella 76]

I would have balanced the prop shafts. a I had an issue with vibrations put it up on a ramp and could find no probems by pushing and pulling on the yolks, but there was still a stuuffed uni that I could not pick up on the vehicle. I had a new set of tyres fitted (Goodyear Kevlar type) and they said when fitted that the rim on one of them was out of balance. I had the tyre taken off and the rim was ok, it was a defective tyre and unbalanced.
Lindsay

[oldyella 76]

I would have balanced the prop shafts. a I had an issue with vibrations put it up on a ramp and could find no probems by pushing and pulling on the yokes, but there was still a stuuffed uni that I could not pick up on the vehicle. I had a new set of tyres fitted (Goodyear Kevlar type) and they said when fitted that the rim on one of them was out of balance. I had the tyre taken off and the rim was ok, it was a defective tyre and unbalanced.
Lindsay

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Lindsay, props and uj's were removed, inspected and eliminated very early on in the piece. To be doubly sure I ran the car for long enough in front and rear wheel drive only...