NSW & Vic Petrol

[Cannon]

Hi All,

As mentioned in DaOot's thread she's heading down to Victoria to live for several months.

I've heard but not necessarily confirmed that the 91 unleaded has Ethanol in it in the Southern states.

What petrol do you southerners put in your series vehicle?

DaOot has a new fuel pump, fuel lines & carby, but I've done nothing with the sender in the tanks.

Thanks :)

[Cannon]

BMPF BMPF BMPF helloo, is this thing on?

:)

[JDNSW]

My 2a lives on NSW unleaded, and has done since leaded petrol stopped, and is in practically daily use. The only fuel component I have replaced in that time is the fuel filter (non-standard), and it continues to run well.

I conclude that NSW petrol (which is likely to contain ethanol - mandated 10% average, but this does not mean all fuel has that amount - some may have more) is not doing any harm. As far as I know, Victorian petrol is the same as NSW.

John

[Cannon]

Awesome. Thanks John :)

[crackers]

My 2a lives on NSW unleaded, and has done since leaded petrol stopped, and is in practically daily use. The only fuel component I have replaced in that time is the fuel filter (non-standard), and it continues to run well.

I conclude that NSW petrol (which is likely to contain ethanol - mandated 10% average, but this does not mean all fuel has that amount - some may have more) is not doing any harm. As far as I know, Victorian petrol is the same as NSW.

John

Have you done anything to the head or just left it until she needs new valve seats?

[Mick_Marsh]

Still on their current website:
Fuel - RACV (http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/racv/Internet/Primary/my+car/fuel)

They have published:
https://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/9a43a800439f2589876fd7f9ec98648a/Modern+Fuels.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=9a43a800439f2589876fd7f9ec98648a

In NSW the government have mandated up to 10% ethanol in ULP.
In Victoria, as far as I am aware, no such mandate exists. There would be an uproar if they introduced it.

[JDNSW]

Have you done anything to the head or just left it until she needs new valve seats?

No. Overseas experience (e.g. Canada) suggests that valve seat recession in this engine is unlikely unless used extensively at high power and high rpm, for example in prolonged freeway driving. I suspect this may be because of good design of valve cooling and the fact that these engines are relatively low compression. If the power is increased substantially (which is relatively easy), I expect the situation could be a bit different.

Valve seat recession is easily spotted when you adjust (or at least check) the tappets, probably a good idea at every or every second service. And think about getting the head overhauled and steel seats installed if overhauling the head.

(For completeness, note that the overhead inlet side exhaust engines fitted to Series 1 and Series 2a/3 sixes already have these)

John

[crackers]

Thanks John. It fits in with my MGB experience where you didn't worry about it unless you found yourself rebuilding the head. Of course, some people get hysterical about it.

[Phil B]

I read the question to be about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems not ULP on valve seats.
AFAIK ethanol can affect certain rubber and plastic parts in fuel systems causing degradation and possible failure of seals, diaphrams etc.
If you google E10 vehicle suitablility LR series vehicles are definitely not suitable for E10.
I do know that ULP without ethanol is still available in NSW after they tried changing to all E10 in 2013(?) and reverted back to straight ULP and an option of E10 after a public outcry.
Not sure about SA but things like chain saws, older mowers etc definitely don't like ethanol so I would imagine that staight ULP is still availabvle there as well.
Regards,

[numpty]

Some ULP (91) is labelled as having 10% ethanol (eg Caltex) whereas 91 ULP sold at most servos is not.

Does this mean it contains ethanol anyway? Seems daft to me if there is no standard. I filled my S1 with 95 at a Caltex outlet recently so as not to put ethanol in it.

[Phil B]

Some ULP (91) is labelled as having 10% ethanol (eg Caltex) whereas 91 ULP sold at most servos is not.

Does this mean it contains ethanol anyway? Seems daft to me if there is no standard. I filled my S1 with 95 at a Caltex outlet recently so as not to put ethanol in it.

I don't believe it has ethanol in it anyway.
The issue was that ethanol can cause damage in older fuel systems and AFAIK if the fuel contains any ethanol it has to be displayed as such ie E10 is ULP with 10% ethanol added. 91, 95 and 98 are straight ULP.

[JDNSW]

I read the question to be about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems not ULP on valve seats.
AFAIK ethanol can affect certain rubber and plastic parts in fuel systems causing degradation and possible failure of seals, diaphrams etc.
If you google E10 vehicle suitablility LR series vehicles are definitely not suitable for E10.
I do know that ULP without ethanol is still available in NSW after they tried changing to all E10 in 2013(?) and reverted back to straight ULP and an option of E10 after a public outcry.
Not sure about SA but things like chain saws, older mowers etc definitely don't like ethanol so I would imagine that staight ULP is still availabvle there as well.
Regards,

The major problem with ethanol in fuel, especially for engines such as mowers, chainsaws etc that spend long periods unused, is that ethanol allows water to mix with the fuel, as water is soluble in ethanol (but not petrol). The result of this is to promote corrosion in every part of the fuel system where fuel is left in place for long periods. Worse, of course, on the coast where humidity is usually high, not much of a problem in most inland locations. Not supposed to be a problem with <10%, but I am not sure I believe that.

The damage to rubber components is, as far as I can see, overrated - cars such as Series Landrovers, or more correctly their fuel system parts, simply have not had the ethanol sensitivity of their components tested. This does not mean they will be damaged, just that it is unknown whether they will be or not.

In reality, it is likely that of the variety of different parts produced by or for companies such as Zenith, Solex, AC and SU, and the aftermarket replacements, since testing for ethanol compatibility is not part of the specification, it is likely that some will be susceptible to damage, and some not. What proportion falls into each category is unknown.

John

[Cannon]

It looks like all 91 Unleaded in NSW at Shell/Coles at least is 10% ethanol.

Coles Express | Shell Fuel | Unleaded (http://www.colesexpress.com.au/shell-fuels/shell-unleaded.aspx)

We might have to go 95 but any fuel bought in NSW will be used within the day.

But then there's this from the RACV site linked earlier saying the carbs in particular are not compatible:

Should I run my classic car on an ethanol blended fuel?
No, vehicles built before 1986 are not considered compatible with ethanol blended fuels
i
. Also
vehicles fitted with a carburettor are not compatible with Ethanol blended fuels
ii
. Fuel injected
vehicles that have not been indicated as compatible
with ethanol blends should also avoid ethanol
blends
iii

[JDNSW]

.......
But then there's this from the RACV site linked earlier saying the carbs in particular are not compatible:

Should I run my classic car on an ethanol blended fuel?
No, vehicles built before 1986 are not considered compatible with ethanol blended fuels
i
. Also
vehicles fitted with a carburettor are not compatible with Ethanol blended fuels
ii
. Fuel injected
vehicles that have not been indicated as compatible
with ethanol blends should also avoid ethanol
blends
iii


I think that this site is taking the position that vehicles built after 1986 are designed to ensure ethanol compatibility, and assuming that ones after that others are not rather than the real situation - it is unknown whether or not they are. And no manufacturer is ever going to guarantee that something they built years ago is compatible.

John

John

[Geedublya]

ULP with ethanol dissolves fibreglass fuel tanks. I learnt this from bitter experience.

[Tombie]

ULP with ethanol dissolves fibreglass fuel tanks. I learnt this from bitter experience.


Yep, well documented on boat sites.

[vnx205]

Maybe it takes several decades for some of these ethanol related problems to develop. :)

I have regularly run quite old vehicles, lawnmowers and chainsaws on E10 ever since it became available. None of those pieces of equipment has ever had any fuel related problem.

I can understand why someone who needs to cross the bar at Narooma or similar places would want to avoid ethanol completely. I am aware of the reasons why ethanol can be a problem for outboards.

However, I think that to assume that one tank full of E10 is going to have disastrous consequences in any Series Land Rover is quite unrealistic.

I think there is a lot of scaremongering associated with the use of E10.

[Phil B]

At the end of the day if you choose to ignore warnings from the producers of the fuel, (Shell in particular stated on their E10 pumps that E10 was not suitable for certain engines ,including lawn mowers, chainsaws ands outboards) and advise from car manufacturers and drivers organisations that is entirely your decision.
Seems strange though that the government backflipped on mandating the exclusive use of 91 E10 and reintroduced 91 ULP immediately in 2013 from memory.
I know which fuel I will choose for my S3 until it eventually becomes unavailable, if it does.

[vnx205]

I choose to interpret those warnings in the manner that JDNSW suggests they should be interpreted. Those organisations don't dare recommend something that has even the remotest possibility of coming back to bite them.

Are you assuming that a government decision was based on sound science? Most of their other decisions are based on what the polls tell them is the best vote winner. :)

[numpty]

Maybe it takes several decades for some of these ethanol related problems to develop. :)

I have regularly run quite old vehicles, lawnmowers and chainsaws on E10 ever since it became available. None of those pieces of equipment has ever had any fuel related problem.

I can understand why someone who needs to cross the bar at Narooma or similar places would want to avoid ethanol completely. I am aware of the reasons why ethanol can be a problem for outboards.

However, I think that to assume that one tank full of E10 is going to have disastrous consequences in any Series Land Rover is quite unrealistic.

I think there is a lot of scaremongering associated with the use of E10.


I choose to interpret those warnings in the manner that JDNSW suggests they should be interpreted. Those organisations don't dare recommend something that has even the remotest possibility of coming back to bite them.

Are you assuming that a government decision was based on sound science? Most of their other decisions are based on what the polls tell them is the best vote winner. :)

And as such I will continue to NOT use Ethanol blended fuels in my older engines.

This includes my 2003 Mazda 323 as it is not recommended.

If nothing else is available, I might think differently, although when I take the S1 anywhere covering more than 300 k's, I usually have a jerry can of fuel with me too.

[Cannon]

And as such I will continue to NOT use Ethanol blended fuels in my older engines.

This includes my 2003 Mazda 323 as it is not recommended.

If nothing else is available, I might think differently, although when I take the S1 anywhere covering more than 300 k's, I usually have a jerry can of fuel with me too.

So which fuel do you use?

[PhilipA]

Just to clear up a few points as I Understand them.
Regarding NSW laws.
The legislation calls for an overall percentage of ethanol in fuel from a distributor. Shell seems to have complied with this law by not offering Unleaded 91 widely in the Sydney metro area.

At the central Coast where I live, Shell has just recently ADDED Unleaded 91 bowsers at Erina and Terrigal in addition to existing E10 pumps. In addition 91 has always been available at Kincumber.

AFAIK Unleaded 91 has no methanol, and this is born out by the superior fuel economy I get when using it.

You can get unleaded 91 at the BP at Pennant Hills near Bunnings also, or the 7/11 on Pennant Hills Road near the turnoff to Casle Hill Rd.

So different distributors satisfy the law in different ways.
Regards Philip A

[vnx205]

And as such I will continue to NOT use Ethanol blended fuels in my older engines.

This includes my 2003 Mazda 323 as it is not recommended.
..........

.

I have no argument with your decision, but I find it astonishing that in 2003, a company like Mazda was producing an engine that was not (or might not) have been suitable for E10.

[vnx205]

Perhaps someone who believes that a single tank of E10 has the potential to do all sorts of nasty things to your vehicle can explain how for decades people got away with adding a bottle of metho to the fuel tank.

It used to be quite a common practice to pour a bottle of metho into a petrol tank if there seemed to be a problem with water in the fuel.

A lot of people did it, yet I never heard any stories of fuel systems giving up the ghost as a result of that practice.

My understanding is that metho is 95% ethyl alcohol and 5% methyl alcohol and that the methyl alcohol is there to give the metho a bitter taste to stop people drinking it.

A lot of people over fifty years ago used to add what was essentially ethanol to vehicles a lot older than Series Land Rovers. Why did it not cause problems?

[JDNSW]

......
My understanding is that metho is 95% ethyl alcohol and 5% methyl alcohol and that the methyl alcohol is there to give the metho a bitter taste to stop people drinking it.
......

Actually, my understanding is that these days methanol is not added to "methylated spirits", because it is very poisonous, and people do drink it in spite of the taste. Instead, today it has a 'denaturing agent', usually pyridine, I believe in this country.

John

[numpty]

So which fuel do you use?

The servos I usually use have both E10 unleaded 91 and unleaded 91, which I presume by it's designation has no ethanol. I use this in the S1.

Mazda do not recommend E10 unleaded in my particular model, according to the list of vehicles considered incompatible, so I use 91 in that also and return close to 7 litres per hundred k's with it.

[schuy1]

Mazda could be erring on the side of caution as e10 or ethanol blends can and do have a detrimental effect on rubber components in the feul system unless designed for it. In addition the feul tanks need tobe able tohandle it as ethanol causes rusting in metal tanks. I know, I had to replace a few tanks on my honda pumping engines! :/

[numpty]

Mazda could be erring on the side of caution as e10 or ethanol blends can and do have a detrimental effect on rubber components in the feul system unless designed for it. In addition the feul tanks need tobe able tohandle it as ethanol causes rusting in metal tanks. I know, I had to replace a few tanks on my honda pumping engines! :/

Exactly. And that is why I err on the side of caution too, until such time as there is no choice.

[gromit]

Perhaps someone who believes that a single tank of E10 has the potential to do all sorts of nasty things to your vehicle can explain how for decades people got away with adding a bottle of metho to the fuel tank.


I think the problem is when the 'single tank of E10' is part used and left for months till the next time the vehicle is used.
When people were putting metho in tanks the vehicle was probably used regularly so the ethanol (metho) was soon gone.

Most of the problems are not from regular use but storage of ethanol blends for long periods. Hence ethanol blends are not recommended for fire fighting equipment and anything used infrequently.

Colin

[crackers]

I think the problem is when the 'single tank of E10' is part used and left for months till the next time the vehicle is used.
When people were putting metho in tanks the vehicle was probably used regularly so the ethanol (metho) was soon gone.

Most of the problems are not from regular use but storage of ethanol blends for long periods. Hence ethanol blends are not recommended for fire fighting equipment and anything used infrequently.

Colin

Actually, metho was used to get rid of water that had accumulated in the tank due to irregular use.

Having said that, irregular use rules out using any ethanol fuel for me, even the normal 91, it too has a reputation for going horrid if ignored.

[numpty]

Actually, metho was used to get rid of water that had accumulated in the tank due to irregular use.

Having said that, irregular use rules out using any ethanol fuel for me, even the normal 91, it too has a reputation for going horrid if ignored.

I use fuel stabiliser in the S1 too if it is going to sit around, to alleviate this problem.

[JDNSW]

If an engine is not used for long periods, keeping the tank full almost entirely eliminates the absorption of water from the air.

The air is exchanged regularly as the temperature cycles daily - but if there is harly any air in the space above the fuel, only a negligible amount of moisture is introduced each day. The really bad situation is where the temperature drops below dew point in the tank, and the water in the air condenses. And the amount of water is directly proportional to the amount of airspace above the fuel.

John

[crackers]

Let's face it John, life was a lot simpler when petrol was cheap, plentiful and, more importantly, petrol :D

Seriously though, irregular use of a vehicle isn't good for it, or at least leads to considerations for keeping it in full health.

[JDNSW]

Let's face it John, life was a lot simpler when petrol was cheap, plentiful and, more importantly, petrol :D

Seriously though, irregular use of a vehicle isn't good for it, or at least leads to considerations for keeping it in full health.

A quick search has not found any historical data before 1972, but what I have found suggests that from that date the price pretty much tracked (on average) CPI up to early 1999, when it increased over about the next ten years by perhaps 20% above CPI on average, but more noticeably, started to fluctuate wildly. But it seems prices are now close to the trend line tracking CPI again, although how long this will continue if the $A keeps falling is another matter.

As far as plentiful goes, it is worth noting that, principally as a result of US and Canadian unconventional oil production, oil can no longer be considered as in short supply.

John

[Graeme]

Actually, metho was used to get rid of water that had accumulated in the tank due to irregular use.In my teens (many moons ago) I used to carry a bottle of metho to use in my Fiat 125 when bad fuel was picked-up in a small country town.

[JDNSW]

In my teens (many moons ago) I used to carry a bottle of metho to use in my Fiat 125 when bad fuel was picked-up in a small country town.

As well as mixing with water, ethanol is an octane booster.

John

[numpty]

In my teens (many moons ago) I used to carry a bottle of metho to use in my Fiat 125 when bad fuel was picked-up in a small country town.

Another man with taste. :D

[Ozdunc]

I get round it by using 98.

For the paltry mileage Bill does each year, and the nicer the engine runs, petrol is not the major cost.

Cannon, I reckon your lad should just compromise and run 95. No ethanol risk, better running when tuned to it and only a schooner a tank more expensive.

[Phil B]

Agree with Ozdunc.
Added bonus is that they seem to perform better on 95 when tuned properly.
Regards,