What device/s can u use in/on your car to record your vehicle speed accurately?

[Robmacca]

Gents.....

Looking for some ideas here as to whether there is any devices out there that can "accurately" record (& store) your vehicle speed during your travels? It has to have some sort of certificate that indicates it's been calibrated and Tested, and be legal to have installed in your vehicle....

Before anyone suggests the most common device - "GPS", that's not certified/Tested in showing you your speed accurately. There is also the issue of driving up/down hills that can give u a false reading.....

Has to be able to stand up in court as a true and accurate record of your speed.....

[V8Ian]

Hema Explorer app for economic, domestic use or there are many commercial track and record programmes for heavy vehicles.

[loanrangie]

Police wont accept any vehicle mounted devices such as a gps as proof of speed, about the only thing that would stand up in court would be a speedometer calibration done by an accepted company if such exists.
But even then if a camera or radar says you are speeding you havent got much hope.

[Robmacca]

Hema Explorer app for economic, domestic use or there are many commercial track and record programmes for heavy vehicles.

Your domestic use GPS won't cut it. The commerical systems that Trucking Companies use "may" stand up depending on whether u can prove it's accuracy; a yearly calibration history/certificate and then a "Expert Witness" that can validate that the system u are using is accurate, etc.....

[Robmacca]

Police wont accept any vehicle mounted devices such as a gps as proof of speed, about the only thing that would stand up in court would be a speedometer calibration done by an accepted company if such exists.
But even then if a camera or radar says you are speeding you havent got much hope.

Not sure about the camera's that takes photo's but there is reports of people winning their cases, but it comes at a HIGH $$ cost as they need to call in expert witness, etc and the system they use has to have some sort of recognition.....

[mudmouse]

Rob,

A certificate of accuracy for a speedo can be obtained by testing the car on a dynamometer, however that is done with the tyres at a set pressure and condition. The certificate covers accuracy 0-180kph (typically) with up to 3kph diversion (+/-). That's all fine but it won't go toward proving that at the time of any alleged 'overspeed' that your tyres were in good order and at the correct pressure.

Then there's the recording; as stated, any audio/visual record would have its integrity tested in Court, and to defend that you would need an encryption/watermark on the file and a process to manage its security. Then how does the camera clearly show the speedo that is in that car without breaching ADR's for head impact/padded areas of the dashboard/steering wheel...

An option may be to have a (separate) digital speedo fitted that is in camera view, but the purchase, testing, certification and security of the system would be a nightmare for a private individual - which is probably why Government agencies can afford to do it.

At the end of the day, to successfully defend an alleged breach of Road Rule 20 (exceed speed limit), you have to satisfy the Court, not the Police/State Debt Recovery Office or State equivalent, that you didn't do it.

A privately managed observation/recording system would have too many holes in it for a Court to be satisfied if its integrity. I appreciate the result of a 'win' for a transport/truck company but that's only a result in a Local Court - basically an opinion of a Magistrate that can be quoted, but by no means a guide for any other Judicial officer. For it to reach precedence, a decision in a District or higher Court is listed under 'stated cases' and referred to as Case Law and they carry weight for later decisions and even legislative change.

The GPS (system) is operated by the US Government and so its accuracy cannot be certified. It was developed as a military tool and a timing error can be introduced to provide erroneous 'time of flight' for the signal therefore giving incorrect location/speed readings - a good thing to thwart the baddies.

Good idea to provide proof of what you were doing but easiest way (and very simplistic to say) is to not speed (or not speed and get caught :p). Remember there is legislation in place to ensure Police/private contracted speed measuring devices are accurate, in addition to the evidence provided via observations of the operator over a period of time and distance that you may not be aware of, which is reasonable considering, and thankfully, that we don't drive around with our eyes glues to a speedo...

[loanrangie]

Not sure about the camera's that takes photo's but there is reports of people winning their cases, but it comes at a HIGH $$ cost as they need to call in expert witness, etc and the system they use has to have some sort of recognition.....

Yes , if you can prove that the camera was not calibrated correctly you have a chance but otherwise not worth the cost.

[Robmacca]

Cheers for that Matt.....

Last year I got pinned for doing 76 in a 60 zone. At the time I didn't believe I was going that fast and when I got home I downloaded the GPS and discovered that I was speeding, but only 68 in a 60 zone. The difference between 76 and 68 is 3pts vs 1pt and obviously more $$. All I was hoping for was to be able to drop the fine down to the 68 level, but this was not to be..... :(





Rob,

A certificate of accuracy for a speedo can be obtained by testing the car on a dynamometer, however that is done with the tyres at a set pressure and condition. The certificate covers accuracy 0-180kph (typically) with up to 3kph diversion (+/-). That's all fine but it won't go toward proving that at the time of any alleged 'overspeed' that your tyres were in good order and at the correct pressure.

Then there's the recording; as stated, any audio/visual record would have its integrity tested in Court, and to defend that you would need an encryption/watermark on the file and a process to manage its security. Then how does the camera clearly show the speedo that is in that car without breaching ADR's for head impact/padded areas of the dashboard/steering wheel...

An option may be to have a (separate) digital speedo fitted that is in camera view, but the purchase, testing, certification and security of the system would be a nightmare for a private individual - which is probably why Government agencies can afford to do it.

At the end of the day, to successfully defend an alleged breach of Road Rule 20 (exceed speed limit), you have to satisfy the Court, not the Police/State Debt Recovery Office or State equivalent, that you didn't do it.

A privately managed observation/recording system would have too many holes in it for a Court to be satisfied if its integrity.

The GPS (system) is operated by the US Government and so its accuracy cannot be certified. It was developed as a military tool and a timing error can be introduced to provide erroneous 'time of flight' for the signal therefore giving incorrect location/speed readings - a good thing to thwart the baddies.

Good idea to provide proof of what you were doing but easiest way (and very simplistic to say) is to not speed (or not speed and get caught :p). Remember there is legislation in place to ensure Police/private contracted speed measuring devices are accurate, in addition to the evidence provided via observations of the operator over a period of time and distance that you may not be aware of, which is reasonable considering, and thankfully, that we don't drive around with our eyes glues to a speedo...

Matt

[Jeff]

Cheers for that Matt.....

Last year I got pinned for doing 76 in a 60 zone. At the time I didn't believe I was going that fast and when I got home I downloaded the GPS and discovered that I was speeding, but only 68 in a 60 zone. The difference between 76 and 68 is 3pts vs 1pt and obviously more $$. All I was hoping for was to be able to drop the fine down to the 68 level, but this was not to be..... :(



Probably would have cost a fortune, and the only winners would be solicitors etc. I know people who have elected to have it heard in court just to delay it enough to have points back from previous fines, then go to court and plead guilty. Costs more but they can keep working in the meantime.

Taxis used to have to have their speedos calibrated, as they charge per km and there was an instrument repair business near me who did them. They have gone and I don't know what happens in this age of electronic speedos. Maybe the meter is independent of the vehicle speedo now.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Tombie]

The GPS log will also be an average over a predetermined time interval.. The longer the trip log the longer the intervals depending on memory available.

Even though you averaged 68 according to your GPS and % error... For the moment you passed the camera it is highly possible to be doing 76.

I'm not saying you were or accusing you of anything - we've all been there at some time.

[BMKal]

Hmmm yes. :angel:

I got busted by the Moora coppers on the way up to Geraldton a couple of weeks ago. Was out in the middle of nowhere on a back road with no sign of any other traffic. Cruise control had been turned off for some windy sections of road a few km back and the radar detector was also turned off when I went through a larger town earlier and was being set off by the usual things in town.

Didn't even see the police car approaching me until it was too late ............ looked down at the speedo and knew I was probably gone even before the blue lights came on, so pulled over and waited for the inevitable.

Even the old story - "but officer, it's a Land Rover - they don't go that fast" didn't wash. :twisted:

But no argument from me - busted fair & square. I turned the cruise control back on after that. ;)

As to original post ...................

I have a "Blackvue" camera mounted on the front windscreen. This films in HD and has in-built satellite tracking. If you play the footage back through their software, it shows your exact position (map coordinates) and speed on the screen - but doubt this information would be of any use to you in a dispute with the law over a speeding charge. Handy for other purposes though. :D

[Robmacca]

Probably would have cost a fortune, and the only winners would be solicitors etc.

Yes... the report I read cost the guy some $27,000 I think to win the argument. He had one of those vehicle trackers in his car in case his car got stolen + Solicitors + Expert Witnesses......




I know people who have elected to have it heard in court just to delay it enough to have points back from previous fines, then go to court and plead guilty. Costs more but they can keep working in the meantime.


From what I read on the Transport Dept Website, I thought it still applies from the day of the Ticket, so if u are left with 0 pts, then no matter if u try and delay it, in the end u will still be up losing your licence or going on a GDB licence for 12mths.... I could be wrong though....

[ramblingboy42]

yes , the police and rta officers can use whatever system they like , including dead reckoning through experience as evidence against any speeding fine but they will not accept anything , even very similar equipment to their own as supporting a persons defense.

a few years ago near Holbrook I was pulled over for "speeding" by a police car from the opposite direction.

it came around a fairly tight bend fairly fast,"tapdancing" on its limits quite obviously close to it's maximum adhesion.

he u-turned and chased me which really surprised me.

we exchanged quite a few words and I questioned his radar unit hanging outboard on a "surfrack".

he took out a tuning fork and showed me that the unit picked up the test vibrations and smugly made some comment about me

I asked him to do it again and I shook the radar...quite easily....and it upset his readings enormously and I questioned that.

he said no one shakes the unit like that , and I suggested that the way his vehicle was dancing around the road at the speed he was doing that it would shake.

we had more words and I wouldn't let him write a bluey and challenged him to go back to his station with me and discuss it with his desk sergeant.

he uttered some abusive words to me and just stormed off and drove away.

apparently if it goes back to station there becomes a mountain of paperwork and reports and they don't like that at all.

easier to let you go

[kelvo]

As no one has mentioned it I'm guessing heavy commercial vehicles in Oz don't have tachographs? Digital tachograph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_tachograph)

These are compulsory in Europe to record speed, driving duration and rest times for commercial (7.5t and over, I think) vehicle drivers. There are other rules that make them compulsory if the GCM is over a certain weight, not sure what that is, but Land Rover offer/did offer factory digital tachographs as an option on Defenders.

[3toes]

Was a case in the UK a few years ago where a truck had been 'caught' speeding by a fixed road side camera. Driver would not pay fine and went to court. This was on basis that the the camera was known to him as was part of a regular route and tachometer records showed as under limit. His argument was that police will fine drivers based on tachometer records so should be good enough to prove innocence. After much protesting that only a police camera is accurate and is checked yearly to confirm accuracy the police withdrew charge of speeding on day of court case so no precedent was set.

[austastar]

Hi,
My daily track log from OziExplorer does that nicely.
Cheers

[cafe latte]

I was told that some have got off fines by asking when the police radar was last calibrated in court. If it is not within a certain time or if they can not produce the certificate you are off the fine.
Chris

[Robmacca]

Hi,
My daily track log from OziExplorer does that nicely.
Cheers

That won't help u in court though to get off....

[Robmacca]

I was told that some have got off fines by asking when the police radar was last calibrated in court. If it is not within a certain time or if they can not produce the certificate you are off the fine.
Chris

This is one of the 1st things they produce and send to u as part of the police brief if u contest the fine.... Now, whether it's the actual truth & was actually calibrated, u will never know

[cafe latte]

Slightly off topic..
Re Police being honest or not like mentioned in the previous post (re when the speed gun has really been calibrated or not) most Police I believe are just doing a difficult job, but some, maybe some whole stations give the rest a bad name. I live in a small town and I know the Police personally especially as being in the Brigade I even work with them in times of fire and they are all really decent people and IMO we are lucky to have them.
However a few years back my missus was down in Innisfail helping the reveg on their stall.
On the way home it started raining BIG time as it does in Innisfail. She came round a corner slowly just as the cloud burst she could not see so she pulled over right into the back of a parked car Oops!
My missus car was an old Troopy with a massive bullbar so the parked car was destroyed. My missus went into the bottleshop and the car belonged to the girl behind the counter, she really appreciated my missus going in.
That was it and my missus came home... A few weeks later she is called in to our local station for an interview and this was sent down to Innisfail.. Then the letter came, she had been charged with dangerous driving and trying to pervert the course of justice :eek::eek:
The police said that Betta had admitted to an off duty cop at the scene that she had been on her mobile phone and that was why she had crashed :eek::eek:
Not possible, she only spoke to the girl and she had said no such thing and we shared at the time a mobile and that day I had the phone!
We have a really good solicitor and we took it to court and won, but the whole thing left a really bad taste in our mouths as the Police lied to try and get a false conviction.
I would like to think it is just a few bad eggs in Innisfail Police..
Chris

[Hay Ewe]

The Equipment used by the police / Departement of Transport must be calibrated to some standard.
There must also be a standard that speedo equipment needs to be calibrated to, otherwise, there is a major disparity here, one rule for the police, nothing for us.

Find that standard / rule and then find equipment that is / can be calibrated and maintain calibration against that standard / rule.

Then install that equipment and maintain it. You will also need to set up a regular calibration by an appropriate approved facility to do so.

However that wont stop you speeding, only give you information to prove / disprove.

What I need is a limiter that wont let me go past the limit!
and last night a radar detector wouldn't have helped me, they got me as they were coming out of a round about on a curve.

Fairs Fair

[Chenz]

My mother in law always let me know when I was going too fast .....Sorry:wasntme:

[zulu Delta 534]

Try a tachograph.
Regards
Glen

[ramblingboy42]

Police radar will do it.

drive through a known speed camera zone above the speed limit noting your speed as you get the flash.

for a couple of hundred bucks they will send you a letter with a photo showing you your exact speed.