FBH for Camping Shower Hot Water - anyone considered it?

[matti4556]

I have a D3.
I also have an upcoming camping holiday, and while doing a service last weekend I looked at the spot under the bonnet where a Fuel Burning Heater goes in overseas models. I had one of those "moments" where I thought I could fit one (somehow) and have it fire-up (somehow) to heat the camp shower water (somehow) but only after I worked out if its "do-able".
Has anyone done it yet?
I am guessing I would need the fuel pump and FBH from overseas for a start. Ebay has them new and used. I think its a Webasto Thermotop V. My research shows it can be simply turned on and off with a switch bodged into the input wiring sockets (without all of the CANBUS connections etc). Once installed and running I would (somehow) circulate water through the hot water circuit to my camp shower hot water source (a 20 litre drum on the ground outside the car) and presto - Happy Camping Wife all over again!
They have a 5kW heating output so its gotta be much faster than boiling the kettle and it would be nice to front up at the next gathering with a camping invention that the other guys don't have :)
I'm not interested in a gas powered off the shelf unit like a Coleman unit because "where's the elegance" in that option?
Forgetting the cost, What am I missing in this line of thought?
Cheers, Matti

[Tombie]

Cool concept... excellent thinking...

Will be interesting to see how you get on!

[matti4556]

Hmmmm - getting a second hand fbh in Aus might be a challenge! :(Does anyone have one in the back of the shed that they are willing to donate to the experimental cause?

[Tombie]

Brand new.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=261665697768&globalID=EBAY-AU

[pop058]

You learn something everyday. I thought an FBH was a very large hammer :D

[BMKal]

You learn something everyday. I thought an FBH was a very large hammer :D

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

Yep ................. that's what I was thinking too. :twisted:

Had me buggered how you would use one of these to get a hot shower ..................

[matti4556]

Brand new.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=261665697768&globalID=EBAY-AU

Thanks Tombie but that looks like the one for the Freebie 2 (and Evoke). I'm going to see what's in markets around the place second hand. Cheers anyhow. Matti

[matti4556]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

Yep ................. that's what I was thinking too. :twisted:

Had me buggered how you would use one of these to get a hot shower ..................

Yes Paul, it's accompanied by the "FBA" (fits bloody anything) shifting spanner. And BMKal, when it's shower time at camp and there's no hot water, Deb can get me to boil some water simply by picking up the hammer and waving it around. :)

[LandyAndy]

The Webasto unit is also fitted to Dodge,or Jeep Discoverys in UK.Apparently the same unit as fited to a Land Rover Discovery(D2).
Great idea Im sure you could make it work easily enough.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

I wouldnt mind betting it has its own circulating pump for the diesel so it SHOULD also be able to be set up in a camper trailer or as a portable unit;);););).
Andrew

[Celtoid]

I have a D3.
I also have an upcoming camping holiday, and while doing a service last weekend I looked at the spot under the bonnet where a Fuel Burning Heater goes in overseas models. I had one of those "moments" where I thought I could fit one (somehow) and have it fire-up (somehow) to heat the camp shower water (somehow) but only after I worked out if its "do-able".
Has anyone done it yet?
I am guessing I would need the fuel pump and FBH from overseas for a start. Ebay has them new and used. I think its a Webasto Thermotop V. My research shows it can be simply turned on and off with a switch bodged into the input wiring sockets (without all of the CANBUS connections etc). Once installed and running I would (somehow) circulate water through the hot water circuit to my camp shower hot water source (a 20 litre drum on the ground outside the car) and presto - Happy Camping Wife all over again!
They have a 5kW heating output so its gotta be much faster than boiling the kettle and it would be nice to front up at the next gathering with a camping invention that the other guys don't have :)
I'm not interested in a gas powered off the shelf unit like a Coleman unit because "where's the elegance" in that option?
Forgetting the cost, What am I missing in this line of thought?
Cheers, Matti


Does the engine need to be running? .... whilst quiet is the D4 ... not that quiet.


And unless you have a DPF ... they stink if you're down wind ... (which probably means bad stuff to breath, regardless of the DPF or otherwise).

[Meccles]

I use a 2m length of 1/2" copper tuber, coiled into about 4 coils with two tails sticking out. Sits perfect on top of one of cheap cast propane gas burners. Garden hose from that to small 12v bilge pump in 20 liter bucket. Circulate it round and round (takes 5/10 minutes till water is at good temp. Then divert water to shower (again am just using standard hose 2way tap. Presto very happy wife. It needs car for power:) Is simple elegant and cost about $100. PS if you want to speed it up I put kettle on top. Has worked for years

[LandyAndy]

I think not,these things warm the coolant so the heaters etc are ready to go when you want an early start on a cold morning.
Hence my thoughts that they have their own fuel pump.The main pump would flatten the battery,at least it would be cosy waiting for AA;);););)
Andrew

[Fluids]

I have a FBH in the Kamper. It's one of the Webasto thermotop units. The hot water (for the kitchen and shower) works via a heat exchanger, which is driven by the Webasto by means of a glycol filled header tank and closed loop recirculating system. The FBH is used to heat the glycol system (50/50 green) which circulates through the heat exchanger, plus in my case, the glycol circuit also loops (in series) to a 2nd heat/air exchanger in the tent, driven by a two speed fan, for heating.

I think the FBH works more like a furnace, not like an on demand instantaneous HWS. The glycol is used as a heat bank, and once to temp the FBH cycles off (stops burning diesel) but keeps recircing the glycol. Once the glycol temp drops too low the furnace re-ignites. Mines takes maybe 15A for a few minutes to establish proper ignition, then runs on straight diesel (2.5hrs with tent heater and hot water running at MAX used less than 1/2 cup of diesel ... Really does run on the smell of an oily rag! )

Takes around 3-4 minutes to get 50deg hot water, and tent heat output is maybe 1.5-2kw.

Sent from my iPad using Braille

[Phil B]

Kev,

Thanks for this. Very interesting.
Any chance of some photo's?
Thanks,

[Fluids]

Andrew ... the fuel supply comes from a stand alone fuel tank in the kamper (about 3L or so) but no reason it couldn't be plumbed into the vehicles tank ... doesn't have it's own pump. Kamper has a small inline solenoid/pulse type 12v fuel pump to deliver fuel to the FBH with a return/spill line for excess fuel to dump back to the tank.

Phil, I'll take some shots and post them up when I get home tonight.

[matti4556]

Does the engine need to be running? .... whilst quiet is the D4 ... not that quiet.


And unless you have a DPF ... they stink if you're down wind ... (which probably means bad stuff to breath, regardless of the DPF or otherwise).

No, the engine doesn't need to be running.(in my proposed setup anyhow) Well it does when it leaves the factory because the canbus looks for a certain ambient temp, engine running signal, etc etc before it allows the fbh to fire up. When fitted without the canbus wiring I am proposing to simply fit a switch to energise the signal input to tell it to start up. It will "cycle" using its inbuilt sensing circuitry and that will be what I am going to use to heat up and maintain my hot water supply. The dpf does come with a small muffler on the exhaust pipe to keep it quieter but when in the great outdoors I'm not too concerned about a little noise. Cheers

[Celtoid]

I think not,these things warm the coolant so the heaters etc are ready to go when you want an early start on a cold morning.
Hence my thoughts that they have their own fuel pump.The main pump would flatten the battery,at least it would be cosy waiting for AA;);););)
Andrew





Doh, that's right ... they warm everything up before start up.


Silly question .... LOL!!!

[Fluids]

Pic's as requested ... and a bit of explanation as to how it all works ... might help in designing an alternative system matti !


The business side of the kamper ... Diesel tank RHS, Glycol header tank LHS and box below glycol tank houses the Webasto, water pump, heat exchanger and changeover valves (water inlet pressure reducing valve & flick mixer/garden hose click-on connection of showers is on the front of the box)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/585.jpg


Here's the fuel tank & supply lines via the inline filter and solenoid/pulse style fuel supply pump ...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/586.jpg


This gives you an idea on the size of the diesel tank (the can is just for comparison!) ... I filled this to the brim when we picked up the Kamper Dec' last year and that's all the fuel we've used for hot water in the kitchen & showers for 11 nights camping and a 2.5Hr test run of the tent heater 2 weeks ago. Very economical on fuel useage !!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/587.jpg


The glycol header tank (50/50 mix) used for the heater exchanger for the hot water supply and the heat exchanger in the tent for air heating.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/588.jpg


Left hand side of the box where it's all housed ... The Webasto is tucked in at the rear ...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/589.jpg


Here's the tent heater. It's approx' the size of a tower PC power supply (a tad higher than the guitar case seen in shot). Has a 2 speed fan (like a PC cooling fan). Heat output is comparable to a portable household fan heater on high.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/590.jpg


This is the hot water heat exchanger ... Not much bigger than a can. Spec' says it has a 0.15L water holding capacity. It's wrapped in styrene foam and the red gaffa is used to keep it all together ... not very big at all.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/591.jpg


Here's a closeup of the "box". Heated glycol from the Webasto enters the heat exchanger via the LHS rubber hose, then exits via the RHS rubber hose, which then continues on to the heater in the tent (approx' 2.5m run), then returns to the header tank, then back to the Webasto inlet. It's circulated by a small pump built into the Webasto. The red pipework is the hot water delivery which drops through the floor and travels across the kamper to the kitchen, and also delivers hot water to the shower mixer tap. Can be driven by the pump in the box with water supply from the rear water tank ... Rear tank can be isolated and mains water can be used via the pressure limiter inlet (white device on the RHS of the photo) to supply the hot water ... OR a suction line can be attached to the pressure limiter inlet so the 12v pump can be used to draw water from an external source (bucket, creek, river, etc) for endless hot showers! :D The silver hose at the bottom left is the Webasto air intake line with a muffler fitted (black plastic item).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/592.jpg


Front of the services box - Water inlet (via the 65psi pressure limiter) and the mixer & outlet for the shower.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/593.jpg


Then there's an exhaust for the Webasto. Leaves through the floor of the "box" and is routed out the side. The extension (covered in an insulating sleeve) is shown fitted IF you need to clear the canvas side skirt. The exhaust is (obviously) very hot, BUT there's very little if any smoke or particulate matter emitted ... a tad on startup, and virtually no bad smells of burning diesel ... the unit burns such a minute amount of diesel that there's next to nothing out the exhaust.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/594.jpg


The control panel & master switches, mounted in the front kitchen side area. Water pump doesn't get turned on if your only running the heater, only if you want hot (or cold) water. The Webasto is started/stopped from the control unit. You can start it, then set a run time (up to 60min), then it shuts down after the time has elapsed. It can also be set to startup at one of 3x preselected times ... ie:set it to turn on at 7am for 30min so the tent is all nice and toasty when you get out of bed ... luxury! :cool: There's also a modification that can be done at the control panel to wire in a switch which effectively over-rides the timer circuit to make the FBH run continuously.

You can't just turn the Webasto off at the master switch when you've finished using it. It MUST be turned off from the control panel, at which point it does a "burn-off" cycle to keep the combustion chamber clean (a bit like a DPF burn off cycle I guess). Failing to do the burn-off causes the Webasto to progressivley soot up and run with excess amounts of smoke.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/595.jpg


... and finally, the spec' sheet from the owners manual. My unit is the Thermo Top E - D (4.2kw output). The fuel consumption figures shown must be the max/extreme useage figures as mine doesn't burn anywhere near what's stated. All depends on the duty cycle.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/596.jpg


There's another page giving spec's for the circ' pump but I forgot to photograph it. I think is was around 2A for the circ' pump.

It works brilliantly! The glycol tank gets way too hot to touch once running temperature is reached ... and takes ages to cool down, so you can still draw off some hot water after the system has been shut down.

I don't know how matti will go trying to run straight water thru the Webasto as their designed to heat coolant and work with a heat exchanger ... 4.2kw/5.2kw is gonna create lots of steam if it's not designed just right!! :D ... if he can do it there'd be merit in designing it into a small stand alone box with a water pump, inlet, outlet, exhaust and a 12v supply in, to make it a portable diesel fired hot water system !


Cheers ! :)

[Phil B]

Thanks very much
That is extremely comprehensive
It looks ideal for my requirements
Any idea of total cost?
Regards

[Fluids]

Thanks Phil.

No sorry, no idea of cost. The diesel hot water was a std inclusion in the kamper and we optioned the additional tent space heater at the time of order. I'd take a stab at $500-1000 for all the gear if you were buying it to install yourself. The Webasto FBH would have to be in the $500 range I reckon ... header tank, pump, rubber hose, plumbing, fittings, exhaust .... I don't think $1000 would be an unreasonable guesstimate !

Cheers

[matti4556]

I don't know how matti will go trying to run straight water thru the Webasto as their designed to heat coolant and work with a heat exchanger ... 4.2kw/5.2kw is gonna create lots of steam if it's not designed just right!! :D ... if he can do it there'd be merit in designing it into a small stand alone box with a water pump, inlet, outlet, exhaust and a 12v supply in, to make it a portable diesel fired hot water system !


Cheers ! :)

Thanks Kev - it looks like you have the Aussie Swag Camper set-up that I came across during my research - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaT1XXLpqgw
I would hazard a guess thats a couple of grand as an option?

But at the risk of having this thread thrown into the "Camping" section I will just keep my project limited to having an under-bonnet setup in the Disco 3 much like in the Euro models. (instead of another large box I need to pack in the car :)) My thoughts are to simply circulate the contents of a jerry can of cold water through the Thermotop until such time as the jerry can is at "Shower temp". (we then share the contents of the jerry at the central shower station) The thermotop has a circulating pump built-in and I need to experiment with how much "head" it can draw up. I'm thinking of just a couple of quick connects for the 2 x circulation hoses, a bit of priming? and Bob's your Auntie! - but only on Saturday nights - the rest of the week he's your Uncle.

When finished with, it goes into its cool-down cycle, disconnect the hoses and slam the bonnet shut - job done! :)

I might even design it to work "as designed" by LandRover in the first place - with a bypass valve for the water circuit and a heat-exchanger as Kev has suggested. But the heater in the car seems to warm up quick enough in our climate.

My search for a Thermotop V in Australia has drawn a blank. They are fitted to some VW diesel models but I have a feeling that if the car is not spec'd to Europe it won't have one fitted for the Aussie Domestic market. Ebay (UK sourced) has them for between 1-2 grand new (out of the question) and a few hundred second hand. The search continues, but a few hundred dollars of experimentation is becoming harder to swallow by the day. I am keen to use the Webasto "Thermotop V" as it will line up with all of the holes in the car as designed.
The project recon continues??...

[ytt105]

You could always just boil the kettle and add the boiled water to a bucket of cold.

That's what we've been doing for years.

[matti4556]

You could always just boil the kettle and add the boiled water to a bucket of cold.

That's what we've been doing for years.

And that's exactly what I have been doing for years too. But it's not the sort of talk that won the war :) there's usually a big troop of us, so the kettle thing is so "yesterday".

[ytt105]

And that's exactly what I have been doing for years too. But it's not the sort of talk that won the war :) there's usually a big troop of us, so the kettle thing is so "yesterday".

If you want to win with the 'troop' try one of these (Constant Hot Water). We used to call them 'Put n Take' back in the scout troop days.

Hillbilly Camping Gear direct on-line sales of blue steel Camp Ovens, frypans and CookStands (http://www.campingwithhillbilly.com/hot_water.php)

[Fluids]

matti ... no, it's a Kimberley Kamper ... 2015 Model Kimberley Classic | Kimberleykampers (http://www.kimberleykampers.com/classic-camper-trailer)

The diesel hot water is a std inclusion! ... the tent heater was an option.

Understand not wanting "another" box to have to pack/unpack ... but it appears KK have already made a stand alone diesel/electric HWS ... but the price is freakin' out-of-this-world !!! :eek: ... https://www.eco-camper.com/e-shop/portable-hot-water/Portable-Hot-Water-Heater-C4EDHWS-detail ... not a hope !!

Maybe using it as a heat exchanger setup whereby the heat exchanger (or an alternative exchanger) is on the end of the hoses and is immersed into the water to be heated ?? ... but then there's a perm' connection of hoses charged with glycol and a heat exchanger to be stored under the bonnett ... not practical maybe.

I took a closer look at the Webasto manual, and have attached some photo's of the pages which may help you in determining wether this project is gonna be possible or not ... a couple of points I noted ... the recirc' pump apparently CAN be detached from the FBH !! The max turn over rate is around 15l/min open flow (1.5psi delivery pressure actually).

My day job is pumps, and my biggest fear is that the recirc' pump won't be capable of lifting the water to be circulated the 1m approx' required to achieve your outcome (the pump is likley to be a stirrer style impeller - as it's a close loop type system the pump is actually pushing the liquid into it's inlet as it simultaneously push the liquid out). The water vessel could be sat at around the same height as the FBH is installed at to alleviate this concern possibly. Remote mounting the pump may see the issue of the pump not generating sufficient discharge pressure to raise the water to the required height .... or maybe it could be driven using a seperate 12v external pump ...

The Webasto FBH kit includes a seperate lift pump for the diesel supply. It needs to be mounted close to the fuel tank.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/501.jpg


The recirc' pump can be remote mounted but needs to be installed so that any air entering the system will purge (meaning the discharge needs to be oriented upwards).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/502.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/503.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/504.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/505.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/506.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/507.jpg


I have used one of the Hillbilly type water heaters in the past ... need a decent fire ... they work well ... but prior to the kamper we used one of these ... Jimmy's Thunderbox camping toilet • RainMan Camp Shower • Gas Guards • Buy Now (http://www.2daloo.com/rainman.html) and heated it on the wok burner ... but there's normally only two, sometimes three of us ... probably not ideal for a "troop" :p

Hope the extra phot's help ... I think it's do-able BUT the complexity and cost are gonna be the nail in the coffin ... I think the closest setup would be to use the FBH and a small header tank + heat exchanger AND a seperate 12v pump to recirc' the water in your jerry ... but I'm guessing space under the bonnet will be an issue ??

Good luck with it ... watching with interest !

[matti4556]

Thanks for the scans Kev. All good info. I have checked my RAVE manual and it covers the fbh. The fuel pump for the fbh bolts to the chassis in its own special spot around abouts under the passenger seat. The fuel tank on the D3 already has its own pick up pipe for the fbh (yet to be Sussed-out to see if my tank has the plumbing ready to attach to). And yes, the height of my water "tank" will most probably need to be sitting on the bumper bar somehow? Unless I use a 12v pump to assist with the "lift" but that's just complicating the install at this time. There is also an app written so you can start the fbh remotely. Now there's campsite cred just there - start the shower water heater from my camp chair without even putting my beer down. Sure beats cutting firewood and waiting waiting..... Cuppla days..... Beeudiful! Over the years we have tried nearly every concept on the market, but this fbh option has grabbed my attention (being technically minded it's a nice challenge for me)
I also camp with some avid Toyota drivers and I am looking for a great way to introduce a jaw-dropper during the fireside banter:D cheers Matti

[Fluids]

Ooooo ... if the fuel pump mount (and power?) and plumbing are already in place there's half the challenge solved already !! Cool :cool:

A small 12v 10l/min or so pump mounted under the bonnet shouldn't be too hard and use it to lift the water from the jerry, push through the FBH and back to the jerry ... solves the FBH circ' pump issue!! ... Then wire it into the 12v supply to the FBH so the "app" fires it all up at the touch of a button.

Now it DOES sound very achievable.

Make sure to take photo's of the Toyo drivers expressions !! :p

Cheers

[Griffo]

Thanks for the scans Kev. All good info. I have checked my RAVE manual and it covers the fbh. The fuel pump for the fbh bolts to the chassis in its own special spot around abouts under the passenger seat. The fuel tank on the D3 already has its own pick up pipe for the fbh (yet to be Sussed-out to see if my tank has the plumbing ready to attach to).


Did you ever find out if the pump mount and pickup are there in the Aussie Disco's ? I'm thinking of fitting a Webasto to heat the car on cold mornings.

[matti4556]

Hi Griffo, The FBH Shower R&D project has gone on the back-burner. (pardon the pun) I couldn't justify the cost of buying a second hand (and potentially shagged) FBH to experiment with at this time. So I bought a D45 Yellow Top and stuck it on a tray in that spot instead :) I need 12V power more than hot water on my upcoming trip to "Winton via Stonehenge"
To see if the fuel pick-up is actually fitted on the tank for vehicles supplied to our market, I would imagine the tank needs to be dropped-out to have a look. Perhaps another forum member has a photo of the pick-ups on top of their tank if they have removed one at any time? It seems from the workshop manual that the FBH diesel pickup tube is a dedicated on that enters the tank in the same vicinity as the main pickup and return pipes. (I got my manual on CD from Dave in the markets section) The wiring all seems to be there (apart from the circulating piping for the water, but I can imagine those pipes are available from the UK vendors?) Keep us updated. My biggest challenge was finding a suitably priced "Thermotop V". There are other cheaper models, but I think you will find fitting a Thermotop V will be the best option as it will drop straight into the mounting holes and the exhaust pipe will line-up perfectly with the hole in the inner guard that's already there. - Matti