Road Rules questions - got me stumped - traffic lights and merging lanes

[Toxic_Avenger]

Can anyone offer advice on the road rules (NSW particularly) regarding traffic lights? My question relates to turning left (or right) at an intersection when the turning arrow is blank (ie NOT red, but will show the orange or green arrows when necessary).
I've always been taught to stop at the intersection, then proceed into the intersection once safe to do so. Although it appears most of the drivers where I live either don't do this, or don't know the rules. I'm starting to think I'm in the wrong!
I've had a full licence for 14 years now, and took a significant number of professional driver training lessons whilst on learner plates (approx 50hrs), and most recently, a driver awareness training thru work. No accident history, nil points against my licence. I think I'm safe enough, but it never hurts to freshen up on the road rules.

What's the understanding of this situation? I couldn't find much info here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/traffic-lights.html).


I'm also confused about indicating at the 'zipper lanes' that are more commonplace these days - the lanes which don't merge, two lanes immediately end, and form one very wide lane. Last week in the ACT, drivers were indicating left or right when their lane ends. There is a pic here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/lanes.html), but no mention of indicating. The rules in my uncerstanding are that you need to signal to "give plenty of warning before you turn left or right, or change lanes". In this instance, the lane ends abruptly, and you don't cross a line... confusion abounds.

Help?!:confused:

[Slunnie]

At the traffic lights you don't need to stop if you're going through a green and turning. The only time is if there is a red, or a red and a turn on red sign. If you're turning right and not going through a green arrow then you have to give way to any oncoming traffic.

For the merge, you only need to indicate if you're crossing a lane line. The forward most vehicle has right of way if both lanes merge into one and neither need to indicate AFAIK. OR the person who has to change lanes during the merge has to indicate and give way.

[Toxic_Avenger]

As I suspected for the merging lanes.

But the thing that gets me is that at an intersection, there is a green, orange and red round light for the straight ahead lanes. BUT, on the left and/or right turn lanes which are marked with an arrow, in some cases there is NO red arrow. It is blanked out. Where does one stand when there is no red arrow? Ie the lights change from green, to orange to Blank?

[bee utey]

If you are faced with nowt but a plain red stop light, you stay behind the stop line, period. I'm not sure what the issue with the lack of a red arrow is. The plain red one covers both ahead and left turns. The only times I've seen a red left turn arrow still on after a main light goes green is when a pedestrian or cyclist has a green light across the side street. It usually doesn't stay red for long. It goes blank if there could still be a pedestrian on the crossing, so you still have to give way to them. A green arrow would mean the pedestrian hasn't got green and you've got right of way to turn.

As for the merging of two marked lanes into one super wide lane, I actually got chatted once by an officer about my maneuver to the left. Finally, I don't remember where, I found that you should indicate your move to the left regardless of the lack of lane lines. I got away with it that time but now I know I was wrong to move over to the left without indicating.

Found it:



Giving way when changing lanes

If you are driving on a multi-lane road and want to move into another lane of traffic, either to your right or left, you must first check that it is safe to change lanes, give a change of direction signal clearly for long enough to warn other road users, and give way to traffic in the other lane (Examples 39 and 40). This also applies to bike lanes and where the road is wide enough for two lines of traffic but there are no lanes marked on the road (Example 41).
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https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/492.jpg - See more at: [URL]http://mylicence.sa.gov.au/road-rules/the-drivers-handbook/giving-way#sthash.KJciM8rf.dpuf (http://mylicence.sa.gov.au/road-rules/the-drivers-handbook/giving-way#sthash.KJciM8rf.dpuf)

[POD]

Yep, if there is no arrow showing then you are bound by whatever light IS showing, e.g. if facing a red light, you stop. An arrow light only has a role when it is actually illuminated.
With merging lanes where both lanes become one lane without one lane ending, there is no requirement to indicate as you are neither turning nor changing lanes. Often it is wise to indicate though as a driver behind you might not be able to see that the lanes are merging.

[DiscoMick]

Can anyone offer advice on the road rules (NSW particularly) regarding traffic lights? My question relates to turning left (or right) at an intersection when the turning arrow is blank (ie NOT red, but will show the orange or green arrows when necessary).
I've always been taught to stop at the intersection, then proceed into the intersection once safe to do so. Although it appears most of the drivers where I live either don't do this, or don't know the rules. I'm starting to think I'm in the wrong!
I've had a full licence for 14 years now, and took a significant number of professional driver training lessons whilst on learner plates (approx 50hrs), and most recently, a driver awareness training thru work. No accident history, nil points against my licence. I think I'm safe enough, but it never hurts to freshen up on the road rules.

What's the understanding of this situation? I couldn't find much info here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/traffic-lights.html).


I'm also confused about indicating at the 'zipper lanes' that are more commonplace these days - the lanes which don't merge, two lanes immediately end, and form one very wide lane. Last week in the ACT, drivers were indicating left or right when their lane ends. There is a pic here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/lanes.html), but no mention of indicating. The rules in my uncerstanding are that you need to signal to "give plenty of warning before you turn left or right, or change lanes". In this instance, the lane ends abruptly, and you don't cross a line... confusion abounds.

Help?!:confused:

As I understand it, if two lanes merge and there are no broken lines then whichever vehicle is in front has the right of way and no signals are required as you're not changing lanes. However, if two lanes merge and there are continuing broken lines then the vehicle which has to cross the broken line has to give way to the one which is already in the continuing lane, if they are close together.
As for turning, if there is no red arrow then I assume you do whatever any other light is showing indicates i.e. go if its green and stop if it's red. Is that right?


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[Toxic_Avenger]

As for turning, if there is no red arrow then I assume you do whatever any other light is showing indicates i.e. go if its green and stop if it's red. Is that right?


Agreed on the lane merging question.

As for the traffic light conundrum, it's up for discussion! Imagine this conundrum- would you wait for the green arrow, or make your turn when safe to do so?
(fyi, this is just a google image, disregard the orientation of the arrows)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/486.jpg

In the past, I may have Turned left and or right on a Blank turning arrow, (of course, only when safe to do so) while the straight ahead light shows red.
Somebody lock me up if I'm wrong!

[bee utey]

Agreed on the lane merging question.

As for the traffic light conundrum, it's up for discussion! Imagine this conundrum- would you wait for the green arrow, or make your turn when safe to do so?
(fyi, this is just a google image, disregard the orientation of the arrows)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/486.jpg

In the past, I may have Turned left and or right on a Blank turning arrow, (of course, only when safe to do so) while the straight ahead light shows red.
Somebody lock me up if I'm wrong!
No (turning left) green arrow there would mean you are allowed to proceed to turn if its clear and safe, ie give way to pedestrians across the side road, a green arrow means you can turn without any other traffic or pedestrians having the right to cross in front of you. Simple really.:)

[DiscoMick]

Agreed on the lane merging question.

As for the traffic light conundrum, it's up for discussion! Imagine this conundrum- would you wait for the green arrow, or make your turn when safe to do so?
(fyi, this is just a google image, disregard the orientation of the arrows)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/486.jpg

In the past, I may have Turned left and or right on a Blank turning arrow, (of course, only when safe to do so) while the straight ahead light shows red.
Somebody lock me up if I'm wrong!

You can't proceed if the main light is red unless a turning arrow is green and you turn as indicated, I think.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Scouse]

In the past, I may have Turned left and or right on a Blank turning arrow, (of course, only when safe to do so) while the straight ahead light shows red.
Somebody lock me up if I'm wrong!If that's the case, you're running/proceeding through a red light.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Page 98 of the road users handbook (NSW, RMS)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/485.jpg

Can anyone offer any further clarification?
The way I read this is that if it's red, you wait behind the line. If it's green, you go, or orange, you stop if safe to do so. BUT if the arrow disappears (goes from orange to blank), than the intersection should be treated as if it's a stop sign, where you enter the intersection when safe to do so, giving way to traffic as normal.

I've scoured the resources I can to find a definitive answer, but drawing blanks.
We should keep in mind rules may be different in other states too...

[Slunnie]

If there is no arrow illuminated, just treat it the same as an intersection that has trafic lights but doesn't have the arrows.

If the round light is green and no turn lights are illuminated, you can turn if it is clear to do so, but if turning right you don't have right of way. You don't have to stop.

If you have a green arrow, you can turn, you have right of way and you don't have to stop.

[V8Ian]

Easiest way is to display P plates, you don't have to obey the rules then. :D

[bee utey]

...BUT if the arrow disappears (goes from orange to blank), than the intersection should be treated as if it's a stop sign, where you enter the intersection when safe to do so, giving way to traffic as normal...

Why would you stop, unless there is a pedestrian or other traffic in the way? It's no different to any other side street accessed off a through road. In the absence of a definitive sign:


Give way rules where there are no signs

Some crossroads have no traffic lights or signs. Generally if you're turning across another vehicle's path, you must give way.
When turning at an intersection, you must give way to:


Oncoming vehicles going straight ahead.
Oncoming vehicles turning left.
Any vehicle on your right.

If you and an oncoming vehicle are turning right at an intersection both cars should pass in front of each other.
If other drivers do not give way to you, do not force them or yourself into a dangerous situation.
You must also give way to any pedestrians at or near the intersection on the road you are entering.


Intersections & turning - Road rules - Safety & rules - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/intersections.html)

[Tank]

A flashing Orange Arrow for turns left are to remind you to give way to pedestrians who may still be crossing in front of you while turning left, Regards Frank.



Can anyone offer advice on the road rules (NSW particularly) regarding traffic lights? My question relates to turning left (or right) at an intersection when the turning arrow is blank (ie NOT red, but will show the orange or green arrows when necessary).
I've always been taught to stop at the intersection, then proceed into the intersection once safe to do so. Although it appears most of the drivers where I live either don't do this, or don't know the rules. I'm starting to think I'm in the wrong!
I've had a full licence for 14 years now, and took a significant number of professional driver training lessons whilst on learner plates (approx 50hrs), and most recently, a driver awareness training thru work. No accident history, nil points against my licence. I think I'm safe enough, but it never hurts to freshen up on the road rules.

What's the understanding of this situation? I couldn't find much info here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/traffic-lights.html).


I'm also confused about indicating at the 'zipper lanes' that are more commonplace these days - the lanes which don't merge, two lanes immediately end, and form one very wide lane. Last week in the ACT, drivers were indicating left or right when their lane ends. There is a pic here (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/lanes.html), but no mention of indicating. The rules in my uncerstanding are that you need to signal to "give plenty of warning before you turn left or right, or change lanes". In this instance, the lane ends abruptly, and you don't cross a line... confusion abounds.

Help?!:confused:

[tact]

So much simpler driving in Kuala Lumpur.
- lights and lane markings are advisory only
- use of turn signals deprecated
- one rule for all situations: "Me First"

Sixteen years living here and 15 of them driving like a Malaysian - no accidents. All good.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, three years of driving in Bangkok taught me the same thing. Road rules are really considered only to be guidelines, to be enforced when considered necessary. Why only have two lanes if there is enough space to squeeze in three rows of vehicles (or even four)?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Traffic lights and road rules. :o

In NSW drivers act as if there aren't any rules.

At traffic lights with green arrows (and amber arrows) when the green arrow is illuminated you can turn across oncoming traffic because they have a red light. It turns to amber to inform you that the oncoming traffic is about to get green. After the amber arrow goes out you can turn across the oncoming traffic only if it is safe to do so. It doesn't need a red arrow because the main red illuminates when you cant proceed or turn.

In NSW it is illegal to do a U turn at traffic lights even where there is a median strip, unless there is signage "U Turns permitted".

Try to tell NSW motorists that they can't do U turns at traffic lights and they'll look at you like you come from another planet.

Don't get me started on giving way at round-abouts! :mad:

[p38arover]

T
In NSW it is illegal to do a U turn at traffic lights even where there is a median strip, unless there is signage "U Turns permitted".

Try to tell Vic. motorists that they can't do U turns at traffic lights and they'll look at you like you come from another planet.

Fixed it for you. I don't see many NSW Plated vehicles doing U-turns.

Have ever noticed we rarely (ever?) get advice/comments from members who are also police officers? :angel:

[DiscoMick]

Traffic lights and road rules. :o

In NSW drivers act as if there aren't any rules.

At traffic lights with green arrows (and amber arrows) when the green arrow is illuminated you can turn across oncoming traffic because they have a red light. It turns to amber to inform you that the oncoming traffic is about to get green. After the amber arrow goes out you can turn across the oncoming traffic only if it is safe to do so. It doesn't need a red arrow because the main red illuminates when you cant proceed or turn.

In NSW it is illegal to do a U turn at traffic lights even where there is a median strip, unless there is signage "U Turns permitted".

Try to tell NSW motorists that they can't do U turns at traffic lights and they'll look at you like you come from another planet.

Don't get me started on giving way at round-abouts! :mad:

Don't get me started on the number of people who pull onto roundabouts in front of you when you are already on the roundabout and so have right of way. Drivers of utes and trucks are the worst at this. People are too impatient to wait until you have passed. This very morning a bloke in a ute pulled straight across in front of me and then turned to go round and head off in the opposite direction. He wasn't even looking my way as I came around to take the third exit. They seem to assume you're going to turn off before you reach their exit. If I hadn't been watching him he'd have had a shiny Mazda 2 go right through his door, followed by a blast of rude words from me!

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[tact]

OP Mate, I have been living outside of Aus for a long time but am sure there are still some plain vanilla intersections with traffic lights, no other modifiers like turn arrows or "turn left any time with care" signs etc.

Surely you have seen such? An intersection with just plain big round red/amber/green lights. You know what to do here right?

These three big round lights are the rule at every intersection always - Anything else is just a conditional modifier. Eg a "turn left anytime with care" sign modifies big round red or amber (does nothing for a green)

Similarly a lit red arrow pointing in a direction you desire to go modifies what you would normally do when facing a big round green. Just like a green arrow modifies a big round red that may be facing you.

Maybe this is totally out of date and overly simplistic. Not trying to be insulting - It's my understanding regards driving in all the many countries where I have driven. Even those like China, Philippines and USA where they drive on the wrong side of the road. (It's real fun driving across borders where you also have to switch sides of the road - like HK into mainland china!)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fixed it for you. I don't see many NSW Plated vehicles doing U-turns.

Have ever noticed we rarely (ever?) get advice/comments from members who are also police officers? :angel:Just go to Camden Valley Way Horningsea Park/Edmundson on a Sunday when the swap meet is open and it seems every fifth car does a U-turn at the traffic lights, mostly NSW plates.